6 ms·

From the government's perspective, this may (or may not) be silly. But putting that aside, if a citizen supports banning cigarettes for people born after a cer

by squigz 6mo ago

From the government's perspective, this may (or may not) be silly. But putting that aside, if a citizen supports banning cigarettes for people born after a certain date, but not alcohol, that certainly seems hypocritical to me.

brador 6mo ago
We know the dangers of second hand smoke. Someone drinking near you does not impact your health.
- Ylpertnodi 6mo ago
  You've probably never been out on a Friday night in the Uk.
  - drcongo 6mo ago
    This comment doesn't deserve the downvotes, it's a very valid point.
    - lokar 6mo ago
      Is it really that bad? Is there something I can read to learn more?
      - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
        > Is it really that bad? I say this as someone who quite enjoys his drink–you haven't seen a hardcore drinking culture until you've dodged multiple projectile vomiters in SoHo at like 5PM on a random Tuesday.
        ben_w 6mo ago
        I somehow managed to avoid experiencing this despite living in the UK up to the age of 34.
        drcongo 6mo ago
        I'm a bit late responding on my own sub-thread, but if you haven't seen these photos before, this is roughly what every city centre in the UK looks like after dark. https://www.maciejdakowicz.com/cardiff-after-dark/ https://www.maciejdakowicz.com/cardiff-after-dark/
        ben_w 6mo ago
        Not Havant, though I was there to 18 and would've only had the independence to examine the nightlife for the two years in which I was doing my A-levels; not Aberystwyth as a university student, nor Plymouth city in my industrial year even though I lived here: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Capitol+Students+Central+Point+Student+Accommodation/@50.3706289,-4.1429754,64m https://www.google.com/maps/place/Capitol+Students+Central+P... Likewise, Cambridge was far too genteel for that, when I lived there. Sheffield managed one night that would've fitted in with those pictures. When my partner and I walked past the football stadium as everyone was leaving.
        drcongo 6mo ago
        Very surprised you never saw this in Plymouth!
- squigz 6mo ago
  It doesn't? That should be good news for victims of drunk driving, and the families of abusive drunks.
  - afavour 6mo ago
    There’s still a difference, surely? Drinking alcohol can lead to drunk driving and it can lead to abuse. Thankfully in the vast majority of instances it doesn’t. Second hand smoke, however, inflicts damage the moment it’s inhaled.
    - squigz 6mo ago
      I'm not saying there's no difference. I just don't that difference is as pronounced as some people think, and I don't think it excuses the apparent double standard. Brief Googling also suggests that second-hand smoke affects at least similar levels of people as drunk driving, if not more - to say nothing of e.g. domestic violence. Not to mention, there are already various laws designed to mitigate the effects of second-hand smoke, such as not smoking indoors or in cars with children. Overall, I am just not convinced that it's necessary to focus so much more on cigarettes over other drugs.
      - afavour 6mo ago
        > there are already various laws designed to mitigate the effects of second-hand smoke And there are already various laws designed to prevent drunk driving and drunk domestic abuse. I think the broader picture here is a simple one: drinking alcohol is more societally acceptable than smoking. A government is going to be reflective of its voters, “necessary” or not, a law to ban drinking would be enormously unpopular in a way a law to ban smoking would not.
        squigz 6mo ago
        > I think the broader picture here is a simple one: drinking alcohol is more societally acceptable than smoking. A government is going to be reflective of its voters, “necessary” or not, a law to ban drinking would be enormously unpopular in a way a law to ban smoking would not. Sure, and this is why I put aside the issue of whether the government is doing the "right" thing in its position and focused on the people who it supposedly reflects - because it doesn't make sense to me that one is more acceptable than the other to an individual, and thinking so doesn't seem to reflect any sort of realistic view on alcohol and its impact on society, while holding cigarettes to a much higher standard.
- hyperpape 6mo ago
  With all due respect, this is completely wrong. There is a difference that someone smoking nearby automatically harms people around you. With alcohol, the effect is more unpredictable, but it is equally real. Alcohol is a factor in an automobile crashes, and a factor in a significant proportion of violent crime, especially domestic violence (https://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/09/17/mark-kleiman/taxation-specific-prohibition/ https://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/09/17/mark-kleiman/taxatio... edit: this source isn't as great, Kleiman has written elsewhere about the subject, but google is failing me). If we could wave a magic wand and cause drinking to cease to exist, many lives would be saved. Note: I do in fact drink, I am not a teetotaler. But what I said above is factual. I personally believe that prohibition would be worse, and it's reasonable for individuals to make their own choices. But that does not entail denying that it goes very badly for many.
  - Findecanor 6mo ago
    Second-hand smoke does affect people around you. It is how people get addicted to nicotine. It is how new smokers are created. And there are some people who are more sensitive to temporary exposure to smoke (and pollution in general) than others. That is why smoking tends to be is banned around hospitals and day care centers — because those are places where you will find those people. My father was one of them, after he had got his larynx removed for throat cancer after having smoked for decades. He could not suffer being subjected to even small amounts of second-hand smoke again because then the breathing hole in his throat would get irritated, fill up with mucus and have to be cleaned with a suction device. And if you drink alcohol next to me, it does not make my clothes and my hair stink so much afterwards that I will want to wash my hair and change my clothes before going to bed.
    - Gud 6mo ago
      No, but the person drinking next to you can suddenly decide you gave them a bad look and decide to pick a fight.
    - hyperpape 6mo ago
      Why are you replying as if I denied second hand smoke harms people? I very clearly said it did.
- Sweepi 6mo ago
  iirc alcohol is the drug with the highest amount of 3rd party harm due to the high number of people beating their spouse, children and sometimes random strangers under the influence. (+ 3rd party property, car crashes, ...) Keep in mind this was evaluated with current laws, which bans most kinds of indoor-smoking. Still a good idea to ban cigarettes and force people to consume their nicotine in healthier ways.
- hagbard_c 6mo ago
  That is, until that person gets behind the wheel or on a (motor)bike and impacts you - and with that, your health - directly. Having said that I don't like the nanny society which acts like it knows better. People sometimes want to do stupid things and I think they should be able to do so. They should also not burden society with the consequences of their stupid actions so smokers either pay in more for health insurance or get relegated to the bottom tier - e.g. "palliative care for smoking-induced illnesses, no life-extending treatments for smoking-related diseases". No smoking where it impacts others negatively - this includes minors living in their house - but if they want to smoke where it doesn't impact others just let them do it.
  - ErroneousBosh 6mo ago
    > That is, until that person gets behind the wheel or on a (motor)bike and impacts you - and with that, your health - directly. Which is something weirdly North American - it's insane how okay USians are with drinking and driving considering how Puritanical they are about drinking generally.
    - hagbard_c 6mo ago
      Are they? I have not experienced this myself. The Americans I met seemed to have the same position towards DUI as the north-western and northern Europeans I know: it is a bad idea which leads to needless accidents, injuries and death. Being a north-western European living in northern Europe I know far more of the latter two than I know Americans but, having visited the country many times for business and a few times for pleasure (north, south, east and west) I haven't met anyone who considered it 'OK' to drink and drive even though I did meet a few who did so anyway. The same is true for the Europeans I mentioned, some do get behind the wheel while they know they shouldn't.
- guzfip 6mo ago
  > Someone drinking near you does not impact your health. Hah, alcoholics have done more damage to my life than a smoker could ever dream of.
- wookmaster 6mo ago
  If you just ignore alcohol fueled violence, birth defects, deaths from drivers hitting people and cars and the emotional health toll to others from dealing with an alcoholic, sure.
- temp0826 6mo ago
  Grow up with an alcoholic parent then get back to us
- joquarky 6mo ago
  I know at least one hacker news reader who didn't grow up with an alcoholic parent. Congratulations!
LeChuck 6mo ago
Sure, maybe, arguably. Does it matter though? A world without smoking is still better than a world with smoking, right?
- noduerme 6mo ago
  A world without hypocrisy would be better still.
- squigz 6mo ago
  Perhaps. The viability of that aside, I would rather attempt to create that world with things like education rather than the government mandating it. That tends not to work out as intended.
- AlexandrB 6mo ago
  And a world where the government tells you what to eat, what to drink, and how much to exercise under penalty of jail is the best of all worlds!
- oceanplexian 6mo ago
  [dead]
drcongo 6mo ago
Don't forget gambling. Though given that the gambling lobby were the only donor's to Starmer's leadership campaign that out-donated the pro-Israel lobbyists, I wouldn't bet on them doing something about it. Pun intended. Edit: just realised I posted under the wrong comment. Doh.
FatherOfCurses 6mo ago
Incremental change isn't a thing? Focusing on one health area, which will certainly be a massive undertaking, instead of trying to wipe out all unhealthy things at the same time?
X0Refraction 6mo ago
I think there is a reasonable argument to be made that they're a different degree of societal problem. I think there's quite a few people who drink on special occasions, but not every week or even every month (I'm one of them). I think it's very rare though for a smoker to not smoke several a day. A friend of mine was that rare breed and would buy a 10 pack occasionally - usually on a Friday and it'd be gone by Monday - but that would maybe be once a month. I think every other smoker I've met though goes through that amount every day. So it seems to me the average smoker is much more likely to become a burden on a nationalised health service than the average drinker. There's more to this of course, smoking to excess generally doesn't increase the chances of you getting into a fight like drinking does for some people, but social pressure counters that partially too.
- joquarky 6mo ago
  Smoking may be a burden on the healthcare system, but the effects of alcohol are a burden to everyone due to the resulting erratic and often directly destructive behavior.
  - X0Refraction 6mo ago
    Being a burden on the healthcare system in a country that has nationalised healthcare is being a burden on everyone through increased taxes and reduced spending in areas the money could be more useful. Those erratic behaviours you talk about are generally illegal in most countries as well with drink driving, public intoxication, assault laws etc. Drinking does have some positives as well, pubs are one of the few third spaces we have remaining. I know there are alternatives, but there are people who won't socialise in a cafe or a book club, but will go to the pub to see the regulars. Considering lots of Western countries have loneliness epidemics I think there'd be a downside to removing that option. Drinking does seem to lubricate social situations, weed can help with pain etc. The only upside from smoking for the individual as far as I can tell is that it fixes the problem it created from you being addicted to it i.e. you get calmer when you get your fix.
larrik 6mo ago
A minority of people who drink are addicted to alcohol. Basically everyone who smokes/etc is addicted to nicotine. They aren't the same at all.
panny 6mo ago
>But putting that aside, if a citizen supports banning cigarettes for people born after a certain date, but not alcohol, that certainly seems hypocritical to me. Why does everyone on HN seem to have a hate boner for alcohol? The main problem there is car culture, not the alcohol. In any case, the hypocritical part is where the UK, like many US states, has legalized marijuana for medical use and is well on its way to legalizing it for recreational use. Pipe tobacco at least smelled good. Cigarettes, not so much. But marijuana smells like a mix of stale cigarettes and body odor. AND the second hand smoke isn't just harmful, it can make you high along with the dirty smelling marijuana smoker. At least with nicotine, it sharpens your concentration. THC on the other hand makes you a lazy Cheeto eating couch potato with no future.
- squigz 6mo ago
  > Why does everyone on HN seem to have a hate boner for alcohol? The main problem there is car culture, not the alcohol. I don't really see how car culture has anything to do with stuff like domestic violence, child abuse, or various other side-effects of alcohol culture.
  - csnover 6mo ago
    As with the cars, those are not alcohol issues, they are violence issues. Whether a drunk person turns to saccharine displays of affection or destructive acts of violence is likely driven by cultural norms and the underlying conditions of their lives.[0] Blaming alcohol for violence is akin to blaming the internet for increases in fraud. [0] https://doi.org/10.4135/9781483331096.n184 https://doi.org/10.4135/9781483331096.n184
    - frm88 6mo ago
      Globally, 38% of violent deaths are alcohol-related 81% of male perpetrators of intimate partner violence in England and Wales test positive for alcohol at arrest https://worldmetrics.org/alcohol-violence-statistics/ https://worldmetrics.org/alcohol-violence-statistics/

by squigz 6mo ago

brador 6mo ago

We know the dangers of second hand smoke. Someone drinking near you does not impact your health.

Ylpertnodi 6mo ago
You've probably never been out on a Friday night in the Uk.
- drcongo 6mo ago
  This comment doesn't deserve the downvotes, it's a very valid point.
  - lokar 6mo ago
    Is it really that bad? Is there something I can read to learn more?
    - JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
      > Is it really that bad? I say this as someone who quite enjoys his drink–you haven't seen a hardcore drinking culture until you've dodged multiple projectile vomiters in SoHo at like 5PM on a random Tuesday.
      - ben_w 6mo ago
        I somehow managed to avoid experiencing this despite living in the UK up to the age of 34.
        drcongo 6mo ago
        I'm a bit late responding on my own sub-thread, but if you haven't seen these photos before, this is roughly what every city centre in the UK looks like after dark. https://www.maciejdakowicz.com/cardiff-after-dark/ https://www.maciejdakowicz.com/cardiff-after-dark/
        ben_w 6mo ago
        Not Havant, though I was there to 18 and would've only had the independence to examine the nightlife for the two years in which I was doing my A-levels; not Aberystwyth as a university student, nor Plymouth city in my industrial year even though I lived here: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Capitol+Students+Central+Point+Student+Accommodation/@50.3706289,-4.1429754,64m https://www.google.com/maps/place/Capitol+Students+Central+P... Likewise, Cambridge was far too genteel for that, when I lived there. Sheffield managed one night that would've fitted in with those pictures. When my partner and I walked past the football stadium as everyone was leaving.
        drcongo 6mo ago
        Very surprised you never saw this in Plymouth!
squigz 6mo ago
It doesn't? That should be good news for victims of drunk driving, and the families of abusive drunks.
- afavour 6mo ago
  There’s still a difference, surely? Drinking alcohol can lead to drunk driving and it can lead to abuse. Thankfully in the vast majority of instances it doesn’t. Second hand smoke, however, inflicts damage the moment it’s inhaled.
  - squigz 6mo ago
    I'm not saying there's no difference. I just don't that difference is as pronounced as some people think, and I don't think it excuses the apparent double standard. Brief Googling also suggests that second-hand smoke affects at least similar levels of people as drunk driving, if not more - to say nothing of e.g. domestic violence. Not to mention, there are already various laws designed to mitigate the effects of second-hand smoke, such as not smoking indoors or in cars with children. Overall, I am just not convinced that it's necessary to focus so much more on cigarettes over other drugs.
    - afavour 6mo ago
      > there are already various laws designed to mitigate the effects of second-hand smoke And there are already various laws designed to prevent drunk driving and drunk domestic abuse. I think the broader picture here is a simple one: drinking alcohol is more societally acceptable than smoking. A government is going to be reflective of its voters, “necessary” or not, a law to ban drinking would be enormously unpopular in a way a law to ban smoking would not.
      - squigz 6mo ago
        > I think the broader picture here is a simple one: drinking alcohol is more societally acceptable than smoking. A government is going to be reflective of its voters, “necessary” or not, a law to ban drinking would be enormously unpopular in a way a law to ban smoking would not. Sure, and this is why I put aside the issue of whether the government is doing the "right" thing in its position and focused on the people who it supposedly reflects - because it doesn't make sense to me that one is more acceptable than the other to an individual, and thinking so doesn't seem to reflect any sort of realistic view on alcohol and its impact on society, while holding cigarettes to a much higher standard.
hyperpape 6mo ago
With all due respect, this is completely wrong. There is a difference that someone smoking nearby automatically harms people around you. With alcohol, the effect is more unpredictable, but it is equally real. Alcohol is a factor in an automobile crashes, and a factor in a significant proportion of violent crime, especially domestic violence (https://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/09/17/mark-kleiman/taxation-specific-prohibition/ https://www.cato-unbound.org/2008/09/17/mark-kleiman/taxatio... edit: this source isn't as great, Kleiman has written elsewhere about the subject, but google is failing me). If we could wave a magic wand and cause drinking to cease to exist, many lives would be saved. Note: I do in fact drink, I am not a teetotaler. But what I said above is factual. I personally believe that prohibition would be worse, and it's reasonable for individuals to make their own choices. But that does not entail denying that it goes very badly for many.
- Findecanor 6mo ago
  Second-hand smoke does affect people around you. It is how people get addicted to nicotine. It is how new smokers are created. And there are some people who are more sensitive to temporary exposure to smoke (and pollution in general) than others. That is why smoking tends to be is banned around hospitals and day care centers — because those are places where you will find those people. My father was one of them, after he had got his larynx removed for throat cancer after having smoked for decades. He could not suffer being subjected to even small amounts of second-hand smoke again because then the breathing hole in his throat would get irritated, fill up with mucus and have to be cleaned with a suction device. And if you drink alcohol next to me, it does not make my clothes and my hair stink so much afterwards that I will want to wash my hair and change my clothes before going to bed.
  - Gud 6mo ago
    No, but the person drinking next to you can suddenly decide you gave them a bad look and decide to pick a fight.
  - hyperpape 6mo ago
    Why are you replying as if I denied second hand smoke harms people? I very clearly said it did.
Sweepi 6mo ago
iirc alcohol is the drug with the highest amount of 3rd party harm due to the high number of people beating their spouse, children and sometimes random strangers under the influence. (+ 3rd party property, car crashes, ...) Keep in mind this was evaluated with current laws, which bans most kinds of indoor-smoking. Still a good idea to ban cigarettes and force people to consume their nicotine in healthier ways.
hagbard_c 6mo ago
That is, until that person gets behind the wheel or on a (motor)bike and impacts you - and with that, your health - directly. Having said that I don't like the nanny society which acts like it knows better. People sometimes want to do stupid things and I think they should be able to do so. They should also not burden society with the consequences of their stupid actions so smokers either pay in more for health insurance or get relegated to the bottom tier - e.g. "palliative care for smoking-induced illnesses, no life-extending treatments for smoking-related diseases". No smoking where it impacts others negatively - this includes minors living in their house - but if they want to smoke where it doesn't impact others just let them do it.
- ErroneousBosh 6mo ago
  > That is, until that person gets behind the wheel or on a (motor)bike and impacts you - and with that, your health - directly. Which is something weirdly North American - it's insane how okay USians are with drinking and driving considering how Puritanical they are about drinking generally.
  - hagbard_c 6mo ago
    Are they? I have not experienced this myself. The Americans I met seemed to have the same position towards DUI as the north-western and northern Europeans I know: it is a bad idea which leads to needless accidents, injuries and death. Being a north-western European living in northern Europe I know far more of the latter two than I know Americans but, having visited the country many times for business and a few times for pleasure (north, south, east and west) I haven't met anyone who considered it 'OK' to drink and drive even though I did meet a few who did so anyway. The same is true for the Europeans I mentioned, some do get behind the wheel while they know they shouldn't.
guzfip 6mo ago
> Someone drinking near you does not impact your health. Hah, alcoholics have done more damage to my life than a smoker could ever dream of.
wookmaster 6mo ago
If you just ignore alcohol fueled violence, birth defects, deaths from drivers hitting people and cars and the emotional health toll to others from dealing with an alcoholic, sure.
temp0826 6mo ago
Grow up with an alcoholic parent then get back to us
joquarky 6mo ago
I know at least one hacker news reader who didn't grow up with an alcoholic parent. Congratulations!

LeChuck 6mo ago

Sure, maybe, arguably. Does it matter though? A world without smoking is still better than a world with smoking, right?

noduerme 6mo ago
A world without hypocrisy would be better still.
squigz 6mo ago
Perhaps. The viability of that aside, I would rather attempt to create that world with things like education rather than the government mandating it. That tends not to work out as intended.
AlexandrB 6mo ago
And a world where the government tells you what to eat, what to drink, and how much to exercise under penalty of jail is the best of all worlds!
oceanplexian 6mo ago
[dead]

drcongo 6mo ago

Don't forget gambling. Though given that the gambling lobby were the only donor's to Starmer's leadership campaign that out-donated the pro-Israel lobbyists, I wouldn't bet on them doing something about it. Pun intended. Edit: just realised I posted under the wrong comment. Doh.

FatherOfCurses 6mo ago

Incremental change isn't a thing? Focusing on one health area, which will certainly be a massive undertaking, instead of trying to wipe out all unhealthy things at the same time?

X0Refraction 6mo ago

I think there is a reasonable argument to be made that they're a different degree of societal problem. I think there's quite a few people who drink on special occasions, but not every week or even every month (I'm one of them). I think it's very rare though for a smoker to not smoke several a day. A friend of mine was that rare breed and would buy a 10 pack occasionally - usually on a Friday and it'd be gone by Monday - but that would maybe be once a month. I think every other smoker I've met though goes through that amount every day. So it seems to me the average smoker is much more likely to become a burden on a nationalised health service than the average drinker. There's more to this of course, smoking to excess generally doesn't increase the chances of you getting into a fight like drinking does for some people, but social pressure counters that partially too.

joquarky 6mo ago
Smoking may be a burden on the healthcare system, but the effects of alcohol are a burden to everyone due to the resulting erratic and often directly destructive behavior.
- X0Refraction 6mo ago
  Being a burden on the healthcare system in a country that has nationalised healthcare is being a burden on everyone through increased taxes and reduced spending in areas the money could be more useful. Those erratic behaviours you talk about are generally illegal in most countries as well with drink driving, public intoxication, assault laws etc. Drinking does have some positives as well, pubs are one of the few third spaces we have remaining. I know there are alternatives, but there are people who won't socialise in a cafe or a book club, but will go to the pub to see the regulars. Considering lots of Western countries have loneliness epidemics I think there'd be a downside to removing that option. Drinking does seem to lubricate social situations, weed can help with pain etc. The only upside from smoking for the individual as far as I can tell is that it fixes the problem it created from you being addicted to it i.e. you get calmer when you get your fix.

larrik 6mo ago

A minority of people who drink are addicted to alcohol. Basically everyone who smokes/etc is addicted to nicotine. They aren't the same at all.

panny 6mo ago

>But putting that aside, if a citizen supports banning cigarettes for people born after a certain date, but not alcohol, that certainly seems hypocritical to me. Why does everyone on HN seem to have a hate boner for alcohol? The main problem there is car culture, not the alcohol. In any case, the hypocritical part is where the UK, like many US states, has legalized marijuana for medical use and is well on its way to legalizing it for recreational use. Pipe tobacco at least smelled good. Cigarettes, not so much. But marijuana smells like a mix of stale cigarettes and body odor. AND the second hand smoke isn't just harmful, it can make you high along with the dirty smelling marijuana smoker. At least with nicotine, it sharpens your concentration. THC on the other hand makes you a lazy Cheeto eating couch potato with no future.

squigz 6mo ago
> Why does everyone on HN seem to have a hate boner for alcohol? The main problem there is car culture, not the alcohol. I don't really see how car culture has anything to do with stuff like domestic violence, child abuse, or various other side-effects of alcohol culture.
- csnover 6mo ago
  As with the cars, those are not alcohol issues, they are violence issues. Whether a drunk person turns to saccharine displays of affection or destructive acts of violence is likely driven by cultural norms and the underlying conditions of their lives.[0] Blaming alcohol for violence is akin to blaming the internet for increases in fraud. [0] https://doi.org/10.4135/9781483331096.n184 https://doi.org/10.4135/9781483331096.n184
  - frm88 6mo ago
    Globally, 38% of violent deaths are alcohol-related 81% of male perpetrators of intimate partner violence in England and Wales test positive for alcohol at arrest https://worldmetrics.org/alcohol-violence-statistics/ https://worldmetrics.org/alcohol-violence-statistics/