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Saw this earlier today, I think it’s very flawed and ideological, unfortunately other posts mentioning this got flagged. First there’s the idea that “nurturing
by andy99 6mo ago
Saw this earlier today, I think it’s very flawed and ideological, unfortunately other posts mentioning this got flagged.
First there’s the idea that “nurturing” is somehow what kids need and better for them automatically, that whatever a stereotypical man does with kids is bad for them, and we need to be rewired by pheromones or whatever to be more sensitive.
And as a corollary the idea that a high-T man somehow is a worse caregiver, and that it needs to be reigned in by some adaptation.
The whole thing is definitely framed for a certain world view, it’s definitely not the only interpretation.
- ViscountPenguin 6mo agoThere's some interesting research on the effect of T in mice which has been challenging traditional assumptions of its role in males: https://news.emory.edu/stories/2022/08/esc_testosterone_animal_study_15-08-2022/story.html https://news.emory.edu/stories/2022/08/esc_testosterone_anim... It's worth noting though that the actions of the "stereotypical man" are strongly culturally informed, and not neccessarily indicative of whatever evolutionary pressures would've wired males brains whatever way they're wired for fatherhood. I don't think we have much direct evidence of ancient female and male parent roles (apart from being able to infer the obvious, like that females would've breastfed).
- tehjoker 6mo agoA lot of ancient cultures were collectivist if small. In some cases, matriarchal, in some cases, sex was "free" because the village owned the kids, and so establishing paternity was not as important because the burden was shared.
- cineticdaffodil 6mo agoHow do youvarrive at matruarchal while most male mammals display hormonal harem bloat? If nature blows you up into body building brute once you have a family, does that not indicate a clear pyramid of force and a violence monopoly? PS: prediction power and testable.. could be science where it not for utopist airsuperiority
- watwut 6mo agoMales looking like body builders is not something observed in any non western nom modern culture. Tribes tend to have thin men. They dont have big bulky muscles. Agricultural subsistence cultures tend to have thin men. They can be violent all the same. Just that bulky look is modern male aesthetic.
- Throaway199999 6mo agoaccidental post
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- hackable_sand 6mo ago[flagged]
- pfannkuchen 6mo ago[flagged]
- XorNot 6mo agoAs a father I can assure you you have no idea what you're talking about.
- rybosome 6mo agoEchoing this. The bond I have with my children is profound and primal. The idea that it’s “unnatural” for me to spend much time with them is so ridiculous as to be instantly dismissed. GP clearly doesn’t have kids or have close male friends who are involved with their kids.
- seibelj 6mo ago[dead]
- steve_adams_86 6mo agoI can't speak for the person you're responding to, but my default reaction to people who say things like this is that they probably don't have kids, and if they do, I wonder about the well-being of their family life. I don't mean that to be insulting at all. It seems completely incompatible with being a family- or community-involved person. And what's society without kids? Whether you're a parent or not, we need kids to do well. It makes no sense at all not to learn to be good with kids, to care about them, to invest in them, etc. They're firmly a core component of human society, certainly not going anywhere. And I can't imagine not spending a lot of time with my kids. It's one of the things I think about most. I like to do a lot of things, but they're one of the few things I can always say yes to. I want to take care of them, teach them, learn from them, listen to them, see them grow, whatever. It just feels good to be in their lives. There's nothing unnatural about it.
- goku12 6mo ago> I can't speak for the person you're responding to, but my default reaction to people who say things like this is that they probably don't have kids,... I don't have kids and it still sounds nonsensical. As a man, my instinct isn't to run away from my child if I had one. If life keeps men and their children apart, that's a different matter altogether. But I have seen other men yearn to be with their little kids. My father did the same when I was young. Some of them are their kids' sole caregiver for the majority of the time because life keeps the mother away from the child. And in all instances, I see strong paternal affection and instincts at play. I'm baffled by an assertion otherwise.
- inquirerGeneral 6mo ago[dead]
- rybosome 6mo agoWhat exactly are you proposing that kids need other than nurturing?
- brigandish 6mo agoThe dilemma was nurturing by a hormonally-adapted male v. a “stereotypical” male, not nurturing v. non-nurturing.
- budududuroiu 6mo agoStructure
- ra_men 6mo agoIn a newborn? Infant? I think not. Nurturing is vital in the early stages of life.
- nickpeterson 6mo agoStructure in this context is probably ‘routine’, though how that plays into a male vs female role is anyone’s guess.
- watwut 6mo agoIn what alternative world stereotypically traditional men provide routine to kids.
- watwut 6mo agoMoms provide structure in "stereotypical" families. Not dads. Moms force bed time, vegetables, homework, cleaning the room. But also not to infants.
- budududuroiu 6mo agoOk, moms provide structure. Not sure why you need to highlight that. Important thing is that kids receive structure early in their lives.
- vadepaysa 6mo agoThank You. This is exactly why I read comments on HN before clicking on news. I am not looking for confirmation bias, I just trust people here more than the BBC.
- JKCalhoun 6mo ago"I am not looking for confirmation bias…" Then you'll enjoy all the contrarian opinions on both sides. Also here in HN comments.
- deleted 6mo ago[deleted]
- roenxi 6mo agoIt seems pretty uncontroversial to say that kids need nurturing? What are we doing with them if we're not nurturing them? The point of the article is that nurturing babies is one of those things that stereotypical men already do. Probably not as much as women, but it is a research result we could have guessed. Turns out that men care about the success of their children too, who knew. > And as a corollary the idea that a high-T man somehow is a worse caregiver, and that it needs to be reigned in by some adaptation. You're reading things that the article did not write. The article did make some political calls around more parental leave and a call for fathers to be more involved with their children, but that isn't any sort of knock against all the other hormones that humans have. Sure people might believe that; lots of people believe a lot of wildly stupid things. But it isn't in the article. There isn't anything judgemental in observing that people's lifestyles can cause hormonal shifts.
- theturtlemoves 6mo agoFour things are needed. Stereotypically they're divided Dad: Protect and provide Mom: Nurture and nourish You could do it differently, but that only works if you swap one, not share half half. Both have been eroded. Kids are raised by strangers, our food is crap, you can't warn each other about dangers cause that's somehow an insult and a single income doesn't pay the bills. The goal seems to be to set men and women against each other.
- WarOnPrivacy 6mo ago> Four things are needed. Stereotypically they're divided Dad: Protect and provide Mom: Nurture and nourish > You could do it differently, but that only works if you swap one, not share half half. I disagree. But I started nurturing early by planning and orchestrating all our births (home, birth center, birth center, twins/hospital) and her prenatal care. Much later, my wife developed psych issues and in the end I was performing all roles to our 5 sons. But well before then I was deeply into nurturing our sons as infants, toddlers, PreK and grade schoolers. I changed most of the diapers (cloth! for sons 1 & 2.). I packed lunches, did cub scout leadership, cleaned up the wounds and encouraged them to go get more. Compared to competent moms and dads, I wasn't substandard, insufficient or compromised in any way.
- theturtlemoves 6mo agoIf I may attempt to clarify my stance. Stereotypically, on average, interpolate for your marriage and all that, if a man does a task/role, he has the ball. He doesn't share the ball. Doing X is my job? Aight, my job. No touchy. Mine. I've got this. Wife starts doing X. Boom, clarity lost. I know, I know, shades of grey and all that. But on average, divide it clearly and you know who is responsible for what. You did all of it, while your wife was sick. Kudos man, tough job done well. My point wasn't about the heaviness of the task, or about how well each could do it, but about clarity and role division.
- JKCalhoun 6mo agoWho is the disciplinarian in the house? I get it, there does tend to be a "role" there (not clear which sex gets that one–it seems to be dependent on a lot of factors—perhaps who is the less patient being the top one). It just seems odd that anyone would see "nurturing" as assigned to one or the other parent.