3 ms·

I never want to live in a society that views individualism as toxic

nehal3m 6mo ago
You’re equivocating, your parent specifically named an example of toxic individualism, they did not say or imply that individualism is toxic.
- 1234letshaveatw 6mo ago
  I guess, if you feel that freedom of movement is insignificant
  - kraquepype 6mo ago
    The thing is, you have LESS freedom of movement in a car dependent society. You lose that freedom of movement if: Your car breaks down Your car gets stolen Your car gets totaled You lose your license You can't afford insurance You get too sick to drive You lose bodily mobility Your mental faculties decline If you can't drive, you have to depend on whatever public options there are around you. Good luck.
  - lamasery 6mo ago
    Exactly, that's why fostering an environment where most people can walk out their front door and get to most of what they need day-to-day pretty fast without having to own a car is so important. Freedom of movement. Increased car ownership & use, and increased design of environments to cater to cars, greatly harms that freedom. Ever checked into a hotel somewhere in city-sprawl, looked at your map to find a local shop to pick up some cable you forgot or a toothbrush or to get some dinner, and realized that despite those things being within half a mile you can't realistically walk to them because there's a highway between you and them, so you're stuck unless you pay someone with a car to drive you? Doesn't feel very free.
    - SpicyLemonZest 6mo ago
      > Ever checked into a hotel somewhere in city-sprawl, looked at your map to find a local shop to pick up some cable you forgot or a toothbrush or to get some dinner, and realized that despite those things being within half a mile you can't realistically walk to them because there's a highway between you and them, so you're stuck unless you pay someone with a car to drive you? Doesn't feel very free. I've never had this happen, no. The closest I've ever gotten was in Tokyo, when I had the store I needed in eyesight across the street but had to go very far out of my way to a pedestrian bridge to get there.
      - lamasery 6mo ago
        Huh, I doubt I've averaged more than two hotel-stays per year over my life and it's happened to me several times, something like "well there are 10 restaurants within easy walking distance as the crow flies, and man that Indian joint looks good, or maybe that gyro place, but oh no, I can't actually get to any of them except... god damnit, McDonalds."
        nradov 6mo ago
        Experienced travelers know how to look at a map and make a reservation at a hotel near amenities they want. For example, I sometimes like to go run a few miles in the morning so I'll pick a hotel near a running trail or at least safe sidewalks. And if you're staying somewhere remote then you'll need a rental car to get there anyway so you can always drive to a restaurant.
kraquepype 6mo ago
Saying that a type of individualism is toxic, doesn't mean that all individualism is toxic. Did adjectives change somehow?
- snackerblues 6mo ago
  I hate toxic liberalism ao much. No it's not that all libs are naive idiots, not at all. Just the toxic ones
viciousvoxel 6mo ago
The term "toxic individualism" doesn't mean that individualism is inherently toxic, like "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean that about masculinity in the general case. These terms mean the over-expression of their worst aspects.
- snackerblues 6mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Planktonne 6mo ago
    That's simply untrue; you're deliberately misinterpreting terms to grind a tired axe. It is perfectly possible to be both masculine and non-toxic without being feminine. Refusing to allow that is toxic in itself.
    - SkyeCA 6mo ago
      > you're deliberately misinterpreting terms Using the term "toxic" to describe things is an issue because people have an immediate negative reaction to it and go on the defence. Wording matters a lot and I'm unsure why there's such an insistence on calling things "toxic" when other words would both better describe issues and cause a less visceral reaction.
      - Planktonne 6mo ago
        People deliberately and cynically choose to have that reaction (or pretend to). It's an adjective like any other, not even an inflammatory one.
        SkyeCA 6mo ago
        Most people don't make a conscious decision in how they react to something emotionally, it just happens. If you want people to take what you say seriously you have to consider the PR side of things. > not even an inflammatory one I don't know how you can seriously claim this.
FatherOfCurses 6mo ago
You are taking the statement of "toxic individualism" to mean "all individualism is toxic" rather than "certain parts of individualism can become toxic if not followed." It is possible to say "some things could be done better" without meaning "throw it all away."
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
Kbelicius 6mo ago
Nobody said that that individualism is toxic
- snackerblues 6mo ago
  I hate toxic liberalism, toxic feminism, toxic gay rights, toxic DEI, toxic emancipation, toxic gun control, toxic abortions, etc. No it's not that I'm against any those things just the toxic applications of them.
  - Kbelicius 6mo ago
    As do I. What is your point?
    - kraquepype 6mo ago
      They are only trying to prove their own point, playing their own language game they alluded to in another comment: > In practice, both do mean exactly that. "Nontoxic individualism" is collectivism, "nontoxic masculinity" is femininity. You're not slick, everyone gets the language games at this point
pixl97 6mo ago
Lol, the irony of this post is succulent. Society in itself is the act of exchanging some of ones individualism and freedom for a group identity. Alligators don't have what we call a society, and they do things that we'd consider anti-social like eat the young of our own kind. The individual has ultimate freedom to do whatever they want. Humans consider these freedoms anti-social and harmful to others and restrict your behaviors in these manners by ever increasing punishment including death. Effectively your statement boils down to a childs tantrum of "I want to do whatever I want to do and damn everyone else"
archagon 6mo ago
Well, feel free to drive yourself to another society once we get ours fixed.

You’re equivocating, your parent specifically named an example of toxic individualism, they did not say or imply that individualism is toxic.

1234letshaveatw 6mo ago
I guess, if you feel that freedom of movement is insignificant
- kraquepype 6mo ago
  The thing is, you have LESS freedom of movement in a car dependent society. You lose that freedom of movement if: Your car breaks down Your car gets stolen Your car gets totaled You lose your license You can't afford insurance You get too sick to drive You lose bodily mobility Your mental faculties decline If you can't drive, you have to depend on whatever public options there are around you. Good luck.
- lamasery 6mo ago
  Exactly, that's why fostering an environment where most people can walk out their front door and get to most of what they need day-to-day pretty fast without having to own a car is so important. Freedom of movement. Increased car ownership & use, and increased design of environments to cater to cars, greatly harms that freedom. Ever checked into a hotel somewhere in city-sprawl, looked at your map to find a local shop to pick up some cable you forgot or a toothbrush or to get some dinner, and realized that despite those things being within half a mile you can't realistically walk to them because there's a highway between you and them, so you're stuck unless you pay someone with a car to drive you? Doesn't feel very free.
  - SpicyLemonZest 6mo ago
    > Ever checked into a hotel somewhere in city-sprawl, looked at your map to find a local shop to pick up some cable you forgot or a toothbrush or to get some dinner, and realized that despite those things being within half a mile you can't realistically walk to them because there's a highway between you and them, so you're stuck unless you pay someone with a car to drive you? Doesn't feel very free. I've never had this happen, no. The closest I've ever gotten was in Tokyo, when I had the store I needed in eyesight across the street but had to go very far out of my way to a pedestrian bridge to get there.
    - lamasery 6mo ago
      Huh, I doubt I've averaged more than two hotel-stays per year over my life and it's happened to me several times, something like "well there are 10 restaurants within easy walking distance as the crow flies, and man that Indian joint looks good, or maybe that gyro place, but oh no, I can't actually get to any of them except... god damnit, McDonalds."
      - nradov 6mo ago
        Experienced travelers know how to look at a map and make a reservation at a hotel near amenities they want. For example, I sometimes like to go run a few miles in the morning so I'll pick a hotel near a running trail or at least safe sidewalks. And if you're staying somewhere remote then you'll need a rental car to get there anyway so you can always drive to a restaurant.

kraquepype 6mo ago

Saying that a type of individualism is toxic, doesn't mean that all individualism is toxic. Did adjectives change somehow?

snackerblues 6mo ago
I hate toxic liberalism ao much. No it's not that all libs are naive idiots, not at all. Just the toxic ones

viciousvoxel 6mo ago

The term "toxic individualism" doesn't mean that individualism is inherently toxic, like "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean that about masculinity in the general case. These terms mean the over-expression of their worst aspects.

snackerblues 6mo ago
[flagged]
- Planktonne 6mo ago
  That's simply untrue; you're deliberately misinterpreting terms to grind a tired axe. It is perfectly possible to be both masculine and non-toxic without being feminine. Refusing to allow that is toxic in itself.
  - SkyeCA 6mo ago
    > you're deliberately misinterpreting terms Using the term "toxic" to describe things is an issue because people have an immediate negative reaction to it and go on the defence. Wording matters a lot and I'm unsure why there's such an insistence on calling things "toxic" when other words would both better describe issues and cause a less visceral reaction.
    - Planktonne 6mo ago
      People deliberately and cynically choose to have that reaction (or pretend to). It's an adjective like any other, not even an inflammatory one.
      - SkyeCA 6mo ago
        Most people don't make a conscious decision in how they react to something emotionally, it just happens. If you want people to take what you say seriously you have to consider the PR side of things. > not even an inflammatory one I don't know how you can seriously claim this.

FatherOfCurses 6mo ago

You are taking the statement of "toxic individualism" to mean "all individualism is toxic" rather than "certain parts of individualism can become toxic if not followed." It is possible to say "some things could be done better" without meaning "throw it all away."

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

Kbelicius 6mo ago

Nobody said that that individualism is toxic

snackerblues 6mo ago
I hate toxic liberalism, toxic feminism, toxic gay rights, toxic DEI, toxic emancipation, toxic gun control, toxic abortions, etc. No it's not that I'm against any those things just the toxic applications of them.
- Kbelicius 6mo ago
  As do I. What is your point?
  - kraquepype 6mo ago
    They are only trying to prove their own point, playing their own language game they alluded to in another comment: > In practice, both do mean exactly that. "Nontoxic individualism" is collectivism, "nontoxic masculinity" is femininity. You're not slick, everyone gets the language games at this point

pixl97 6mo ago

Lol, the irony of this post is succulent. Society in itself is the act of exchanging some of ones individualism and freedom for a group identity. Alligators don't have what we call a society, and they do things that we'd consider anti-social like eat the young of our own kind. The individual has ultimate freedom to do whatever they want. Humans consider these freedoms anti-social and harmful to others and restrict your behaviors in these manners by ever increasing punishment including death. Effectively your statement boils down to a childs tantrum of "I want to do whatever I want to do and damn everyone else"

archagon 6mo ago

Well, feel free to drive yourself to another society once we get ours fixed.