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I enjoy how moon-landing deniers will use the van Allen belts as a reason for why the astronauts could not have made it to the moon because of radiation exposur

I enjoy how moon-landing deniers will use the van Allen belts as a reason for why the astronauts could not have made it to the moon because of radiation exposure. Like, you don't believe NASA that they went to the moon, but you believe NASA that the van Allen belts exist?

joeslide 6mo ago
[flagged]
arowthway 6mo ago
I'm not disputing that conspiracy theorists tend to lack rigor but there is a full spectrum of positions between "space is fake" and "one specific extraordinary achievement with high incentive to fake it is fake".
- glimshe 6mo ago
  There's indeed a full spectrum of positions in this case, but they are all worthless in the sense that they add nothing to someone's understanding of reality.
  - zurfer 6mo ago
    You know some people grow up in untrustworthy environments and auto didact their way to something like first principles thinking and depending on things shaking out you might only believe what you've personally seen with your own eyes. And well, earth looks pretty flat in daily life.
JumpCrisscross 6mo ago
Any entertaining “Artemis II is a hoax” takes?
- hydrogen7800 6mo ago
  I haven't been actively looking for them, but a friend sent me something about the launch tower escape zipline/gondolas and how that somehow indicated something fraudulent. He is not a denier, but works with one and is always asking me to refute that person's claims.
  - Tangurena2 6mo ago
    If your friend is trying to "cure" the denier, then it might be helpful for them to learn some of the tactics for reaching/deprogramming cult members. One that might be helpful is "street epistemology". Link: https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Street_Epistemology https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Street_Epistemology
    - hydrogen7800 6mo ago
      That's a bit too much to ask of these folks, I'm afraid, but I did boil it down for him by saying that the real question is understanding why he is inclined to believe its a hoax, rather than trying to pile up evidence in front of him. I suppose that's what "street epistemology" is, though. Nice to have shorthand terms for these ideas. I also included a thought experiment for him: Imagine you take a conspiracy influencer and actually put them in the spacecraft with the astronauts so they could see the whole thing with their own eyes and wouldn't be able to deny it. They return to earth to tell their followers that it's all real. Do you think everyone will be convinced, or would they say he's now in on the conspiracy and find a new person to lead the conspiracy theory? (I wonder if there is a sociological shorthand term for this?)
      - pgalvin 6mo ago
        > Imagine you take a conspiracy influencer and actually put them in the spacecraft with the astronauts so they could see the whole thing with their own eyes and wouldn't be able to deny it. They return to earth to tell their followers that it's all real. Do you think everyone will be convinced, or would they say he's now in on the conspiracy and find a new person to lead the conspiracy theory? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Experiment_(expedition) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Experiment_(expediti... "The participating flat Earthers all admitted that the midnight sun was a real phenomenon. The larger flat Earth community has largely rejected the results and accused the participants, including the flat Earthers, of having faked the expedition and of being part of a larger conspiracy to promote the spherical Earth model."
- blitzar 6mo ago
  I am fairly certain that Artemis II has proven conclusively that they were right all along and the world is flat.
- jrmg 6mo ago
  You just need to look at the Facebook comments on any official NASA post about Artemis to see depressingly many of them. Some are joking or trolling, I’m sure, but I don’t think all.
- thecommakozzi 6mo ago
  [dead]
rsynnott 6mo ago
Strictly speaking, their existence was verified by Sputnik 2 (though the Soviets only released data on it after the fact, corroborating data from Explorer 1), so if you have a highly _specific_ conspiracy theory, around NASA rather than space stuff in general, that _could_ still work, I suppose?
- atrus 6mo ago
  No, because the Soviets have to in on faking the moon landing. They were also landing a spacecraft at the same time as the landings. To fake the moon landing you'd also have to fake the entire cold war.
  - toast0 6mo ago
    Wouldn't it be great for the US and the USSR if most of the cold war was fake? Both sides get a great boogie man to denounce. Save a bunch of money on arms if they're mostly fake. Once you learn about the Van Allen Belt, you call over on the red phone and say hey guys, we know we can't send people, but think about the ratings? Maybe we send you a case of Pepsi and we're good?
    - carlosjobim 6mo ago
      What if large wars are coordinated by the rulers of opposing sides with the purpose of killing off as many of their own young men as possible - thus reducing the threat of an uprising?
    - dhosek 6mo ago
      Now the whole idea of a fake cold war is burrowing into my brain.
  - windward 6mo ago
    It's disappointingly difficult to get a positive case for what happened from deniers, that attempts to explain these things. Very eager to tell you what didn't happen, though.
  - 6mo ago
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
ErroneousBosh 6mo ago
People live in regions far more radioactive than the van Allen belts for far longer than the amount of time the Apollo and Artemis astronauts spent travelling through. Like, for example, people who live in Aberdeen.

joeslide 6mo ago

[flagged]

arowthway 6mo ago

I'm not disputing that conspiracy theorists tend to lack rigor but there is a full spectrum of positions between "space is fake" and "one specific extraordinary achievement with high incentive to fake it is fake".

glimshe 6mo ago
There's indeed a full spectrum of positions in this case, but they are all worthless in the sense that they add nothing to someone's understanding of reality.
- zurfer 6mo ago
  You know some people grow up in untrustworthy environments and auto didact their way to something like first principles thinking and depending on things shaking out you might only believe what you've personally seen with your own eyes. And well, earth looks pretty flat in daily life.

JumpCrisscross 6mo ago

Any entertaining “Artemis II is a hoax” takes?

hydrogen7800 6mo ago
I haven't been actively looking for them, but a friend sent me something about the launch tower escape zipline/gondolas and how that somehow indicated something fraudulent. He is not a denier, but works with one and is always asking me to refute that person's claims.
- Tangurena2 6mo ago
  If your friend is trying to "cure" the denier, then it might be helpful for them to learn some of the tactics for reaching/deprogramming cult members. One that might be helpful is "street epistemology". Link: https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Street_Epistemology https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Street_Epistemology
  - hydrogen7800 6mo ago
    That's a bit too much to ask of these folks, I'm afraid, but I did boil it down for him by saying that the real question is understanding why he is inclined to believe its a hoax, rather than trying to pile up evidence in front of him. I suppose that's what "street epistemology" is, though. Nice to have shorthand terms for these ideas. I also included a thought experiment for him: Imagine you take a conspiracy influencer and actually put them in the spacecraft with the astronauts so they could see the whole thing with their own eyes and wouldn't be able to deny it. They return to earth to tell their followers that it's all real. Do you think everyone will be convinced, or would they say he's now in on the conspiracy and find a new person to lead the conspiracy theory? (I wonder if there is a sociological shorthand term for this?)
    - pgalvin 6mo ago
      > Imagine you take a conspiracy influencer and actually put them in the spacecraft with the astronauts so they could see the whole thing with their own eyes and wouldn't be able to deny it. They return to earth to tell their followers that it's all real. Do you think everyone will be convinced, or would they say he's now in on the conspiracy and find a new person to lead the conspiracy theory? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Experiment_(expedition) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Final_Experiment_(expediti... "The participating flat Earthers all admitted that the midnight sun was a real phenomenon. The larger flat Earth community has largely rejected the results and accused the participants, including the flat Earthers, of having faked the expedition and of being part of a larger conspiracy to promote the spherical Earth model."
blitzar 6mo ago
I am fairly certain that Artemis II has proven conclusively that they were right all along and the world is flat.
jrmg 6mo ago
You just need to look at the Facebook comments on any official NASA post about Artemis to see depressingly many of them. Some are joking or trolling, I’m sure, but I don’t think all.
thecommakozzi 6mo ago
[dead]

rsynnott 6mo ago

Strictly speaking, their existence was verified by Sputnik 2 (though the Soviets only released data on it after the fact, corroborating data from Explorer 1), so if you have a highly _specific_ conspiracy theory, around NASA rather than space stuff in general, that _could_ still work, I suppose?

atrus 6mo ago
No, because the Soviets have to in on faking the moon landing. They were also landing a spacecraft at the same time as the landings. To fake the moon landing you'd also have to fake the entire cold war.
- toast0 6mo ago
  Wouldn't it be great for the US and the USSR if most of the cold war was fake? Both sides get a great boogie man to denounce. Save a bunch of money on arms if they're mostly fake. Once you learn about the Van Allen Belt, you call over on the red phone and say hey guys, we know we can't send people, but think about the ratings? Maybe we send you a case of Pepsi and we're good?
  - carlosjobim 6mo ago
    What if large wars are coordinated by the rulers of opposing sides with the purpose of killing off as many of their own young men as possible - thus reducing the threat of an uprising?
  - dhosek 6mo ago
    Now the whole idea of a fake cold war is burrowing into my brain.
- windward 6mo ago
  It's disappointingly difficult to get a positive case for what happened from deniers, that attempts to explain these things. Very eager to tell you what didn't happen, though.
- 6mo ago

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

ErroneousBosh 6mo ago

People live in regions far more radioactive than the van Allen belts for far longer than the amount of time the Apollo and Artemis astronauts spent travelling through. Like, for example, people who live in Aberdeen.