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While I agree with the general argument that iOS shouldn’t limit the user’s freedom, it looks to me like Apple actually put in some effort to make this as priva

While I agree with the general argument that iOS shouldn’t limit the user’s freedom, it looks to me like Apple actually put in some effort to make this as privacy-preserving as possible. The article somewhat glosses over it, but you can buy a PASS age verification card at the local post office for 15£. That one is widely accepted and it doesn’t contain unnecessary information that might cause trouble if it leaked (like for example a passport does). And 1 in 3 adults (according to the article) have an Apple account that’s old enough so that they will automatically be unlocked, no further documents needed. The article strongly accuses iOS of being a walled garden, but I don’t see that as a particularly strong argument after iOS being locked down for ~20 years now. And as a parent, I know that if child protection is opt-in, there’ll be a huge fight about it, because some other parents won’t activate it, which then makes the situation unfair for the kids. I’d much rather have it on by default so that all kids are treated the same.

AlBugdy 6mo ago
iOS is a walled garden and it will be as strong an argument as ever, regardless of how long iOS has been a walled garden for. Also, don't you see how having to buy your privacy for 15£, even for 0.01£ is ridiculous? And to your last point - a parent can easily bypass all that bullshit if they wanted. They could let their kids use a normal computer without any walled gardens. What's to stop them from seeing 4chan or motherless or anything like that? Nothing. And nothing will unless you force all of society into your dystopic vision of a safe world for kids.
inetknght 6mo ago
Your phone should not have any business whatsoever collecting, checking, or verifying the age of the person using it. > And as a parent, I know that if child protection is opt-in, there’ll be a huge fight about it, because some other parents won’t activate it, which then makes the situation unfair for the kids. I’d much rather have it on by default so that all kids are treated the same. If you cared about your children, you would be against this. Otherwise you're fighting against your children's future; their privacy, their sanity, their ability to participate in a functioning democracy.
- pmlnr 6mo ago
  A phone, no. An internet connected device is another question. One can always get a dumbphone without this.
- tbossanova 6mo ago
  “But $parent, none of the other kids have it on! I’m missing out on everything! Are you trying to ruin my life? I hate you!” Rinse and repeat until you break
  - Aurornis 6mo ago
    I’m a parent and I think all of these arguments are ridiculous. You shouldn’t need the force of government across the nation to set boundaries for your own kids. It’s also getting kind of silly to pretend that these laws are going to stop those other kids’ parents from simply age-verifying their phones for them. These fantasies where the government passes a law and suddenly every parent and child in the country settle into the exact same social norms are just that - fantasy.
  - subscribed 6mo ago
    I'm a parent and this argument is silly to put it gently. "No" is a complete sentence after the reasoning has been laid out the first time. Yes, I did the same with tiktok, Instagram, WhatsApp in my house for my kids. Their home network is mildly sanitised, their phones minimally parented. It's mostly consensus despite their whining (mostly performative, it seems).
gip 6mo ago
> because some other parents won’t activate it, which then makes the situation unfair for the kids. I’d much rather have it on by default so that all kids are treated the same. That’s a strange argument. The government or anyone doesn’t have a mandate to ensure everyone has the exact same experience. Differences in upbringing are normal. I didn’t have a TV growing up while most of my friends did. It might have felt unfair at the time, but it wouldn’t justify the government forcing my parents to get one -> overreach.
cornholio 6mo ago
The PASS card features your name and photo, it's an ID by any other name. You must have a very warped perspective of social reality if you think it should be acceptable to force every adult to show their papers before they can do anything in modern society - and all that just so you can avoid your parenting duties. And I say that as a parent.
- riddlemethat 6mo ago
  Some people just want government to parent them.
  - deleted 6mo ago
    [deleted]
- fxtentacle 6mo ago
  I'm not worried about my parenting duties. I am worried about the inequality created for the kids if I am strict about rules, but other parents are not. That's why it is in my interest if other (lazier) parents are forced to comply. And yes, the PASS card has name and photo. But no adress, no social security number or secret ID or equivalent. If your PASS card leaks, nobody can create a bank account in your name. If your passport leaks, they can. That's the difference in privacy, seen in action.
  - crote 6mo ago
    If those restrictions are so good for children, wouldn't it be in your interest to enforce them - even when other parents do not? Or are you worried about your kids getting an unfair advantage over unrestricted ones?
    - sleepychu 6mo ago
      I am not parent comment, and I'm also not in favour of restrictions for all/most people in the name of "the kids" for all the reasons covered in this debate. Invasive age verification feels even worse. But I gotta tell I am not looking forward to deciding which is worse when my little kids grow up and I either have to: - let them use TikTok (or whatever it is by then) and suffer what I know to be an insidious poison - make them be on the outside of the circle and suffer exclusion by their peers because they don't get any of the memes I've been the only kid in class without the new 18-rated Call of Duty game, or indeed a games console to play it on. At the time, it sucked. In retrospect I totally agree with my parents, young children should not be playing games about shooting each other! (Of course other parents may disagree) CoD was only the new hotness once every couple of years. TikTok can make something the new hotness every week. My only real hope to escape this dilemma is that enough other parents in my cohorts realise how poisonous TT is and the problem goes away... I can't say I'm optimistic.
raverbashing 6mo ago
> you can buy a PASS age verification card at the local post office for 15£ If there's one thing the UK internet has taught me is that some brits will throw a fit for every minor inconvenience they face "Dole appoint at 10am 30min from home!?" Means it's an unsurmountable challenge from them as they might be hangover from the previous day and what do you mean I have to pay the bus fare to get there? Of course the privacy point stands. But their complaint is not about privacy, is about the effort
budududuroiu 6mo ago
Thanks for your comment. It's good to hear from people that want this, as to understand which voters politicians are relying on for support for passing this at a legal level. However, I fundamentally and ideologically disagree with your views on the matter, and I think your views are incompatible with a free society with checks and balances, and frankly, draconian.
Fizzadar 6mo ago
Also parent in the UK - strong disagree, it’s part of our parental responsibilities to set this up, not doing it is the same as not watching a newly walking baby on the stairs (/etc). Compromising everyone’s privacy for a subset of lazy parents is a failing of society.
- codebje 6mo ago
  Relatively few newly walking babies have peers whose parents allow them to use stairs unattended making them feel socially excluded for not also using stairs unattended. Ignoring the existence of peer pressure and calling parents lazy is a failing of individuals.
  - Rohansi 6mo ago
    This is not going to get rid of peer pressure. That existed long before kids had phones and it will continue to be a problem with this. Parents should be there to teach rather than just restrict. Kids will need to learn how to recognize and deal with peer pressure at some point. Also Apple definitely benefits from peer pressure generally. Their devices are seen as status symbols, the dreaded green bubbles, maybe more. I wouldn't expect them to do anything to actually improve things in this area.
    - Rohansi 6mo ago
      apples and bananas
- blitzar 6mo ago
  > subset of lazy parents is a failing of society I would say we are closer to having society fail thanks to the woeful quality of parenting demonstrated by the majority.
deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
Lio 6mo ago
I see several posts in this thread from different users suggesting that we buy an age verification ID card. They all misformat currency in the same weird way. No one actually British writes 15£. I don’t want to pay an extra tax to access the web or use my phone. I don’t want to be monitored or censored by a nanny state because you don’t to stand up to your kids. I’m angry that this is being brought in without discussion. This is unacceptable to me. I’m going to vote for whichever party says it will revoke the Online Safety Act.
subscribed 6mo ago
You forgot to mention that the (provisional) driving licence can be issued to 16 year olds. Full (A1) licence to 17 year olds. It's a proper, full licence, just for a limited power/displacement. Looks proper, "adult". I don't have iPhone in my household but but I'd very happily ask my nearly 17yo child to try to pass as an adult using their licence to point to the utter stupidity of this. And to address your last point - the difference is not that Apple is barring adults from the huge portion of the internet (and no, I'm not talking about porn, to address inevitable strawman) unless they submit to the intrusive check. What proves for me it's malicious, subversive pattern is that it hasn't been widely advertised. The right way to do it would be to NOT turn it on, but allow to switch "I'm not an adult" option in the settings and then require age check to turn it off. It would require a parent to do it in their child's phone ONCE. The way it is now is stupid, hostile, so utterly British Government in a way. Great job.

AlBugdy 6mo ago

iOS is a walled garden and it will be as strong an argument as ever, regardless of how long iOS has been a walled garden for. Also, don't you see how having to buy your privacy for 15£, even for 0.01£ is ridiculous? And to your last point - a parent can easily bypass all that bullshit if they wanted. They could let their kids use a normal computer without any walled gardens. What's to stop them from seeing 4chan or motherless or anything like that? Nothing. And nothing will unless you force all of society into your dystopic vision of a safe world for kids.

inetknght 6mo ago

Your phone should not have any business whatsoever collecting, checking, or verifying the age of the person using it. > And as a parent, I know that if child protection is opt-in, there’ll be a huge fight about it, because some other parents won’t activate it, which then makes the situation unfair for the kids. I’d much rather have it on by default so that all kids are treated the same. If you cared about your children, you would be against this. Otherwise you're fighting against your children's future; their privacy, their sanity, their ability to participate in a functioning democracy.

pmlnr 6mo ago
A phone, no. An internet connected device is another question. One can always get a dumbphone without this.
tbossanova 6mo ago
“But $parent, none of the other kids have it on! I’m missing out on everything! Are you trying to ruin my life? I hate you!” Rinse and repeat until you break
- Aurornis 6mo ago
  I’m a parent and I think all of these arguments are ridiculous. You shouldn’t need the force of government across the nation to set boundaries for your own kids. It’s also getting kind of silly to pretend that these laws are going to stop those other kids’ parents from simply age-verifying their phones for them. These fantasies where the government passes a law and suddenly every parent and child in the country settle into the exact same social norms are just that - fantasy.
- subscribed 6mo ago
  I'm a parent and this argument is silly to put it gently. "No" is a complete sentence after the reasoning has been laid out the first time. Yes, I did the same with tiktok, Instagram, WhatsApp in my house for my kids. Their home network is mildly sanitised, their phones minimally parented. It's mostly consensus despite their whining (mostly performative, it seems).

gip 6mo ago

> because some other parents won’t activate it, which then makes the situation unfair for the kids. I’d much rather have it on by default so that all kids are treated the same. That’s a strange argument. The government or anyone doesn’t have a mandate to ensure everyone has the exact same experience. Differences in upbringing are normal. I didn’t have a TV growing up while most of my friends did. It might have felt unfair at the time, but it wouldn’t justify the government forcing my parents to get one -> overreach.

cornholio 6mo ago

The PASS card features your name and photo, it's an ID by any other name. You must have a very warped perspective of social reality if you think it should be acceptable to force every adult to show their papers before they can do anything in modern society - and all that just so you can avoid your parenting duties. And I say that as a parent.

riddlemethat 6mo ago
Some people just want government to parent them.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
fxtentacle 6mo ago
I'm not worried about my parenting duties. I am worried about the inequality created for the kids if I am strict about rules, but other parents are not. That's why it is in my interest if other (lazier) parents are forced to comply. And yes, the PASS card has name and photo. But no adress, no social security number or secret ID or equivalent. If your PASS card leaks, nobody can create a bank account in your name. If your passport leaks, they can. That's the difference in privacy, seen in action.
- crote 6mo ago
  If those restrictions are so good for children, wouldn't it be in your interest to enforce them - even when other parents do not? Or are you worried about your kids getting an unfair advantage over unrestricted ones?
  - sleepychu 6mo ago
    I am not parent comment, and I'm also not in favour of restrictions for all/most people in the name of "the kids" for all the reasons covered in this debate. Invasive age verification feels even worse. But I gotta tell I am not looking forward to deciding which is worse when my little kids grow up and I either have to: - let them use TikTok (or whatever it is by then) and suffer what I know to be an insidious poison - make them be on the outside of the circle and suffer exclusion by their peers because they don't get any of the memes I've been the only kid in class without the new 18-rated Call of Duty game, or indeed a games console to play it on. At the time, it sucked. In retrospect I totally agree with my parents, young children should not be playing games about shooting each other! (Of course other parents may disagree) CoD was only the new hotness once every couple of years. TikTok can make something the new hotness every week. My only real hope to escape this dilemma is that enough other parents in my cohorts realise how poisonous TT is and the problem goes away... I can't say I'm optimistic.

raverbashing 6mo ago

> you can buy a PASS age verification card at the local post office for 15£ If there's one thing the UK internet has taught me is that some brits will throw a fit for every minor inconvenience they face "Dole appoint at 10am 30min from home!?" Means it's an unsurmountable challenge from them as they might be hangover from the previous day and what do you mean I have to pay the bus fare to get there? Of course the privacy point stands. But their complaint is not about privacy, is about the effort

budududuroiu 6mo ago

Thanks for your comment. It's good to hear from people that want this, as to understand which voters politicians are relying on for support for passing this at a legal level. However, I fundamentally and ideologically disagree with your views on the matter, and I think your views are incompatible with a free society with checks and balances, and frankly, draconian.

Fizzadar 6mo ago

Also parent in the UK - strong disagree, it’s part of our parental responsibilities to set this up, not doing it is the same as not watching a newly walking baby on the stairs (/etc). Compromising everyone’s privacy for a subset of lazy parents is a failing of society.

codebje 6mo ago
Relatively few newly walking babies have peers whose parents allow them to use stairs unattended making them feel socially excluded for not also using stairs unattended. Ignoring the existence of peer pressure and calling parents lazy is a failing of individuals.
- Rohansi 6mo ago
  This is not going to get rid of peer pressure. That existed long before kids had phones and it will continue to be a problem with this. Parents should be there to teach rather than just restrict. Kids will need to learn how to recognize and deal with peer pressure at some point. Also Apple definitely benefits from peer pressure generally. Their devices are seen as status symbols, the dreaded green bubbles, maybe more. I wouldn't expect them to do anything to actually improve things in this area.
  - Rohansi 6mo ago
    apples and bananas
blitzar 6mo ago
> subset of lazy parents is a failing of society I would say we are closer to having society fail thanks to the woeful quality of parenting demonstrated by the majority.

deleted 6mo ago

[deleted]

Lio 6mo ago

I see several posts in this thread from different users suggesting that we buy an age verification ID card. They all misformat currency in the same weird way. No one actually British writes 15£. I don’t want to pay an extra tax to access the web or use my phone. I don’t want to be monitored or censored by a nanny state because you don’t to stand up to your kids. I’m angry that this is being brought in without discussion. This is unacceptable to me. I’m going to vote for whichever party says it will revoke the Online Safety Act.

subscribed 6mo ago

You forgot to mention that the (provisional) driving licence can be issued to 16 year olds. Full (A1) licence to 17 year olds. It's a proper, full licence, just for a limited power/displacement. Looks proper, "adult". I don't have iPhone in my household but but I'd very happily ask my nearly 17yo child to try to pass as an adult using their licence to point to the utter stupidity of this. And to address your last point - the difference is not that Apple is barring adults from the huge portion of the internet (and no, I'm not talking about porn, to address inevitable strawman) unless they submit to the intrusive check. What proves for me it's malicious, subversive pattern is that it hasn't been widely advertised. The right way to do it would be to NOT turn it on, but allow to switch "I'm not an adult" option in the settings and then require age check to turn it off. It would require a parent to do it in their child's phone ONCE. The way it is now is stupid, hostile, so utterly British Government in a way. Great job.