8 ms·

>mitigate the adverse effects of low socioeconomic status Makes me wonder how much of it is Sauna, vs just the luxury of having the time to go do nothing for ~

>mitigate the adverse effects of low socioeconomic status Makes me wonder how much of it is Sauna, vs just the luxury of having the time to go do nothing for ~30 minutes.

bloqs 6mo ago
I nearly made a screen time comment but you are right, its facility availability and travel time issue more than anything
- Jensson 6mo ago
  Finland has saunas everywhere, having a sauna at home isn't even expensive average people have that, its just a cultural thing its like having a toilet at home it isn't something normal people can't afford.
  - t-3 6mo ago
    Not all saunas are the same though. Traditional hotbox-ed wood burning saunas and modern electrics are the same thing but also kinda not.
    - Jensson 6mo ago
      I don't think they used wood burning saunas in this study, basically all saunas today are electric.
      - mesrik 6mo ago
        Correct, most saunas at homes were they apartments or family homes, businesses, public saunas etc. were built using electric stoves when they became commonplace during -70's. But traditional summer cottages and villas have been either intentionally or still built wood burning stoves unless three phase power is easily available not bring cost up too much because remote location and long distance to grid. We have about half a million summer cottages in Finland. Which almost all have saunas and I would guess that perhaps 5% would have electric saunas as most summer cottages are built quite long time ago and off grid. There are fancy (luxury) summer cottages where there is not one but either two or even three saunas built or moved there. All different types of course if having many. One electric inside for convenience. Traditional (continuous) wood burning sauna, "jatkuvalämmitteinen" in Finnish, right next to lake because that type is consider to give better 'löyly' (steam in sauna) than you get from electric stove and thus preferred by many. Third if some have is usually oldest type, the smoke-sauna. Which is really nice to have if you can afford keeping and have patience to make use of it few times a year. It takes lot of time and bit of knowledge too to warm it up which can take up to 6-8 hours, before it's ready to start bathing there. This was most common type about hundred years ago in country side. Fourth type is or mostly was between smoke-sauna and continuously burning stove sauna. Its stove burns wood during heating, but then during bathing it's just releasing heat accumulated during heating. This type name in Finnish is "kertalämmitteinen kiuas" ie. onceheated-stove. And was most common in towns and cities before continuously warming stove was invented and became popular about 60 years ago. I go sauna four times a week, once evening where I live and three times a week early in morning when I go swimming to (county owned) swimming baths. e: typos, and clearer expressions.
        PaulDavisThe1st 6mo ago
        In the USA, you do not need 3 phase power for a good electric sauna. Residential is all supplied with single phase 240AC which works just fine. [EDIT: I should have single phase, which is more conventional ]
        mesrik 6mo ago
        In Finland and most of Europe have 230V one phase, 400v in three phase. And bare single phase subscription haven't even been available new houses for at least 45 years any more. But if you buy an old summer cottage further away from permanent living areas it may well be that a) you don't even have grid there or b) if you have it's single phase and three phase upgrade would be too expensive because you are being billed building cost for that work all in front. Using that single phase for sauna stove needs then so much that it's not allowed by code or if you would be able to convince some electrician do some kind fo switching other devices off when stove is on most perhaps do not like to pursue that and choose wood stove their sauna instead. That's known working solution and remote location it's also a secondary heat source incase grid were down due some storm fallen trees on wires which mess cleaning takes several days etc.
        PaulDavisThe1st 6mo ago
        1. I should have said single phase, since that's the typical (if somewhat inaccurate) description of US residential power. 2. If you have 230V single phase, not sure why you couldn't run a sauna from that, unless there is some other heavy load to be run concurrently.
- nine_k 6mo ago
  No travel time. Most Finnish houses have a sauna built in.
  - wood_spirit 6mo ago
    And Swedish houses, particularly detached houses built or renovated the 70s. Typically used for storing boxes.
    - mesrik 6mo ago
      That is growing trend in Finland too. GenX and younger seemingly use less sauna compared to older generations. Thus when it was common to build sauna for a while all new all least family size apparments late -80's and -90's that has been less common later decades. And it's become so common people not using saunas already built bathing and instead use it additional storage. Which has unfortunately caused even some fire accidents if stove circuit breaker was not disconnected. Last year we had this kind of happening when child apparently had played with the sauna timer switch and activated it.
Sharlin 6mo ago
I just cannot fathom comments like this. I’m preeetty sure that the vast majority of people spend half an hour a day doing nothing, in front of a screen of some type. How many people do you think there are there who don’t have thirty minutes of leisure time once per week?!
- Tade0 6mo ago
  Fresh parents without relatives to help out.
  - prepend 6mo ago
    Check out the screen time log for fresh parents. I remember the first few months being so crazy. Feedings every two hours, and each feeding took an hour. But still time for naps, short walks, etc. part of the survival was to work in little microbreaks when the baby was sleeping.
    - sersi 6mo ago
      I've never read as much on my kindle as when my son was born. I didn't want to use my phone so any micro break was spent reading. Much harder to do now that my son is 4 years old, I'm less sleep deprived but there's less opportunities for micro breaks when I'm with him.
    - skrebbel 6mo ago
      Huge difference between constantly being in passive alert mode waiting for the kid to wake up and cry their heart out, and proper uninterrupted “I know have x minutes for myself, no matter what” time.
      - KellyCriterion 6mo ago
        > being in passive alert mode AH, MANY THANKS! That was the wording I was actually looking for when our twins arrived - I couldnt even sit down to read a printed newspaper article with 2 pages....
u1hcw9nx 6mo ago
Doing nothing for 30 minutes does not release cytokines.
- choult 6mo ago
  But it _will_ reduce cortisol, which is known to increase the likelihood of infections
ugiox 6mo ago
Less doomscrolling, less bing watching of dumb Netflix series. Sensible working hours. And a society that doesn’t demand constant reachability when being off work. It is not a luxury. It is living with common sense.
- mrgoldenbrown 6mo ago
  Sensible working hours is a luxury for many people, at least in the United States. Especially the ones considered low socioeconomic status. 40 hours a week at minimum wage will barely pay the median rent in my state. That leaves nothing for food, health care, utilities, transportation, etc.
azan_ 6mo ago
People with high socioeconomic status work much more and have less free time. It’s absurd to claim otherwise. EDIT: please before being outraged at my comment have a look at actual evidence, e.g. Time and income poverty by Tania Burchardt; bottom decile compared with top decile has 12 hours more free time a week!
- shadowpho 6mo ago
  Citation needed. Edit: it’s absolutely not true universally and it’s ridiculous to suggest it is. Comparing averages will be very tricky as well.
  - azan_ 6mo ago
    Sure - https://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cr/CASEreport57.pdf https://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cr/CASEreport57.pdf The difference between bottom and top decile is huge - bottom has approximately 12 hours more of free time a week! It’s consistent result that’s replicated multiple times in literature.
    - stinkbeetle 6mo ago
      It's astounding how easily people here swallowed the ~opposite claim -- that low income people can't find 30 minutes of leisure time, versus how they howl and object to yours. Even after you provide evidence, something never demanded or provided of the first claim.
- alphager 6mo ago
  People with 2 minimum wage jobs have even less time.
- robertfw 6mo ago
  how utterly disconnected from reality you are
  - azan_ 6mo ago
    I’m afraid it’s you that’s disconnected from reality. I know it’s unfashionable to actually consider evidence, but please have a look at eg Time and income poverty by Tania Burchardt. Low income people have MUCH more free time.
nobodyandproud 6mo ago
As an American: I soak in a hot tub for 30 minutes or more, at fairly high heat. At least a few times a week. Sometimes posting on Hackernews. It’s one of the high points of my day (the soak, not the posting). This “I wonder” just screams lazy thinking.
- KellyCriterion 6mo ago
  just make sure your charger is faaar away from the tube, please. (and thats also true for your phone charger :-)
  - nobodyandproud 6mo ago
    Thanks for the warm thoughts :) (yes, I went there). My phone charge lasts longer than 30 minutes. And it’s provably water resistant to tub depths. I certainly don’t code in the tub. Strictly reading and discourse.
  - cwillu 6mo ago
    I'm curious what harm you think could come from that?
    - KellyCriterion 6mo ago
      Ehhhh? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/girl-16-electrocuted-death-bath-29887697 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/girl-16-electrocute... https://www.reddit.com/r/hungary/comments/1k7hxqq/meghalt_a_13_%C3%A9ves_kisl%C3%A1ny_aki_beleejtette_a/?tl=en https://www.reddit.com/r/hungary/comments/1k7hxqq/meghalt_a_...
      - cwillu 6mo ago
        Got any from countries with electrical codes from this century? GFCI protection has been required by code in bathrooms basically everywhere for 50 years.
        6mo ago
gjulianm 6mo ago
That might have an effect, but these studies are probably mostly selecting for people who can tolerate a hostile environment for longer, which are usually healthier. I find it unlikely that sauna alone explains the fantastic, almost miraculous hazard ratios that these studies report.
- LorenPechtel 6mo ago
  Unfortunately, yes, just about everything beyond the basics in longevity stuff has that as a possible confounder. Sauna is a fairly passive thing, though, I would expect less of an effect.
  - gjulianm 6mo ago
    It’s not only that confounder but also the fact that the studies show massive risk reductions that are really surprising. Considering how much finns apparently go to the sauna compared to similar countries and how good the sauna appears to be based on the studies, it’s weird that they have similar health stats at a country level.
    - LorenPechtel 6mo ago
      Yeah, I didn't realize how little overall effect it had. Pretty much either has to be a confounder or like exercise: much more benefit in terms of quality than quantity. One big problem with longevity is so many things go wrong--completely removing even a major cause of death produces surprisingly small gains.
nextlevelwizard 6mo ago
Who doesn’t have 30 minutes per week to do nothing? I am genuinely asking.
- grg0 6mo ago
  I don't know but I'm feeling for this guy right now.

>mitigate the adverse effects of low socioeconomic status Makes me wonder how much of it is Sauna, vs just the luxury of having the time to go do nothing for ~30 minutes.

bloqs 6mo ago

I nearly made a screen time comment but you are right, its facility availability and travel time issue more than anything

Jensson 6mo ago
Finland has saunas everywhere, having a sauna at home isn't even expensive average people have that, its just a cultural thing its like having a toilet at home it isn't something normal people can't afford.
- t-3 6mo ago
  Not all saunas are the same though. Traditional hotbox-ed wood burning saunas and modern electrics are the same thing but also kinda not.
  - Jensson 6mo ago
    I don't think they used wood burning saunas in this study, basically all saunas today are electric.
    - mesrik 6mo ago
      Correct, most saunas at homes were they apartments or family homes, businesses, public saunas etc. were built using electric stoves when they became commonplace during -70's. But traditional summer cottages and villas have been either intentionally or still built wood burning stoves unless three phase power is easily available not bring cost up too much because remote location and long distance to grid. We have about half a million summer cottages in Finland. Which almost all have saunas and I would guess that perhaps 5% would have electric saunas as most summer cottages are built quite long time ago and off grid. There are fancy (luxury) summer cottages where there is not one but either two or even three saunas built or moved there. All different types of course if having many. One electric inside for convenience. Traditional (continuous) wood burning sauna, "jatkuvalämmitteinen" in Finnish, right next to lake because that type is consider to give better 'löyly' (steam in sauna) than you get from electric stove and thus preferred by many. Third if some have is usually oldest type, the smoke-sauna. Which is really nice to have if you can afford keeping and have patience to make use of it few times a year. It takes lot of time and bit of knowledge too to warm it up which can take up to 6-8 hours, before it's ready to start bathing there. This was most common type about hundred years ago in country side. Fourth type is or mostly was between smoke-sauna and continuously burning stove sauna. Its stove burns wood during heating, but then during bathing it's just releasing heat accumulated during heating. This type name in Finnish is "kertalämmitteinen kiuas" ie. onceheated-stove. And was most common in towns and cities before continuously warming stove was invented and became popular about 60 years ago. I go sauna four times a week, once evening where I live and three times a week early in morning when I go swimming to (county owned) swimming baths. e: typos, and clearer expressions.
      - PaulDavisThe1st 6mo ago
        In the USA, you do not need 3 phase power for a good electric sauna. Residential is all supplied with single phase 240AC which works just fine. [EDIT: I should have single phase, which is more conventional ]
        mesrik 6mo ago
        In Finland and most of Europe have 230V one phase, 400v in three phase. And bare single phase subscription haven't even been available new houses for at least 45 years any more. But if you buy an old summer cottage further away from permanent living areas it may well be that a) you don't even have grid there or b) if you have it's single phase and three phase upgrade would be too expensive because you are being billed building cost for that work all in front. Using that single phase for sauna stove needs then so much that it's not allowed by code or if you would be able to convince some electrician do some kind fo switching other devices off when stove is on most perhaps do not like to pursue that and choose wood stove their sauna instead. That's known working solution and remote location it's also a secondary heat source incase grid were down due some storm fallen trees on wires which mess cleaning takes several days etc.
        PaulDavisThe1st 6mo ago
        1. I should have said single phase, since that's the typical (if somewhat inaccurate) description of US residential power. 2. If you have 230V single phase, not sure why you couldn't run a sauna from that, unless there is some other heavy load to be run concurrently.
nine_k 6mo ago
No travel time. Most Finnish houses have a sauna built in.
- wood_spirit 6mo ago
  And Swedish houses, particularly detached houses built or renovated the 70s. Typically used for storing boxes.
  - mesrik 6mo ago
    That is growing trend in Finland too. GenX and younger seemingly use less sauna compared to older generations. Thus when it was common to build sauna for a while all new all least family size apparments late -80's and -90's that has been less common later decades. And it's become so common people not using saunas already built bathing and instead use it additional storage. Which has unfortunately caused even some fire accidents if stove circuit breaker was not disconnected. Last year we had this kind of happening when child apparently had played with the sauna timer switch and activated it.

Sharlin 6mo ago

I just cannot fathom comments like this. I’m preeetty sure that the vast majority of people spend half an hour a day doing nothing, in front of a screen of some type. How many people do you think there are there who don’t have thirty minutes of leisure time once per week?!

Tade0 6mo ago
Fresh parents without relatives to help out.
- prepend 6mo ago
  Check out the screen time log for fresh parents. I remember the first few months being so crazy. Feedings every two hours, and each feeding took an hour. But still time for naps, short walks, etc. part of the survival was to work in little microbreaks when the baby was sleeping.
  - sersi 6mo ago
    I've never read as much on my kindle as when my son was born. I didn't want to use my phone so any micro break was spent reading. Much harder to do now that my son is 4 years old, I'm less sleep deprived but there's less opportunities for micro breaks when I'm with him.
  - skrebbel 6mo ago
    Huge difference between constantly being in passive alert mode waiting for the kid to wake up and cry their heart out, and proper uninterrupted “I know have x minutes for myself, no matter what” time.
    - KellyCriterion 6mo ago
      > being in passive alert mode AH, MANY THANKS! That was the wording I was actually looking for when our twins arrived - I couldnt even sit down to read a printed newspaper article with 2 pages....

u1hcw9nx 6mo ago

Doing nothing for 30 minutes does not release cytokines.

choult 6mo ago
But it _will_ reduce cortisol, which is known to increase the likelihood of infections

ugiox 6mo ago

Less doomscrolling, less bing watching of dumb Netflix series. Sensible working hours. And a society that doesn’t demand constant reachability when being off work. It is not a luxury. It is living with common sense.

mrgoldenbrown 6mo ago
Sensible working hours is a luxury for many people, at least in the United States. Especially the ones considered low socioeconomic status. 40 hours a week at minimum wage will barely pay the median rent in my state. That leaves nothing for food, health care, utilities, transportation, etc.

azan_ 6mo ago

People with high socioeconomic status work much more and have less free time. It’s absurd to claim otherwise. EDIT: please before being outraged at my comment have a look at actual evidence, e.g. Time and income poverty by Tania Burchardt; bottom decile compared with top decile has 12 hours more free time a week!

shadowpho 6mo ago
Citation needed. Edit: it’s absolutely not true universally and it’s ridiculous to suggest it is. Comparing averages will be very tricky as well.
- azan_ 6mo ago
  Sure - https://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cr/CASEreport57.pdf https://sticerd.lse.ac.uk/dps/case/cr/CASEreport57.pdf The difference between bottom and top decile is huge - bottom has approximately 12 hours more of free time a week! It’s consistent result that’s replicated multiple times in literature.
  - stinkbeetle 6mo ago
    It's astounding how easily people here swallowed the ~opposite claim -- that low income people can't find 30 minutes of leisure time, versus how they howl and object to yours. Even after you provide evidence, something never demanded or provided of the first claim.
alphager 6mo ago
People with 2 minimum wage jobs have even less time.
robertfw 6mo ago
how utterly disconnected from reality you are
- azan_ 6mo ago
  I’m afraid it’s you that’s disconnected from reality. I know it’s unfashionable to actually consider evidence, but please have a look at eg Time and income poverty by Tania Burchardt. Low income people have MUCH more free time.

nobodyandproud 6mo ago

As an American: I soak in a hot tub for 30 minutes or more, at fairly high heat. At least a few times a week. Sometimes posting on Hackernews. It’s one of the high points of my day (the soak, not the posting). This “I wonder” just screams lazy thinking.

KellyCriterion 6mo ago
just make sure your charger is faaar away from the tube, please. (and thats also true for your phone charger :-)
- nobodyandproud 6mo ago
  Thanks for the warm thoughts :) (yes, I went there). My phone charge lasts longer than 30 minutes. And it’s provably water resistant to tub depths. I certainly don’t code in the tub. Strictly reading and discourse.
- cwillu 6mo ago
  I'm curious what harm you think could come from that?
  - KellyCriterion 6mo ago
    Ehhhh? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/girl-16-electrocuted-death-bath-29887697 https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/girl-16-electrocute... https://www.reddit.com/r/hungary/comments/1k7hxqq/meghalt_a_13_%C3%A9ves_kisl%C3%A1ny_aki_beleejtette_a/?tl=en https://www.reddit.com/r/hungary/comments/1k7hxqq/meghalt_a_...
    - cwillu 6mo ago
      Got any from countries with electrical codes from this century? GFCI protection has been required by code in bathrooms basically everywhere for 50 years.
      - 6mo ago

gjulianm 6mo ago

That might have an effect, but these studies are probably mostly selecting for people who can tolerate a hostile environment for longer, which are usually healthier. I find it unlikely that sauna alone explains the fantastic, almost miraculous hazard ratios that these studies report.

LorenPechtel 6mo ago
Unfortunately, yes, just about everything beyond the basics in longevity stuff has that as a possible confounder. Sauna is a fairly passive thing, though, I would expect less of an effect.
- gjulianm 6mo ago
  It’s not only that confounder but also the fact that the studies show massive risk reductions that are really surprising. Considering how much finns apparently go to the sauna compared to similar countries and how good the sauna appears to be based on the studies, it’s weird that they have similar health stats at a country level.
  - LorenPechtel 6mo ago
    Yeah, I didn't realize how little overall effect it had. Pretty much either has to be a confounder or like exercise: much more benefit in terms of quality than quantity. One big problem with longevity is so many things go wrong--completely removing even a major cause of death produces surprisingly small gains.

nextlevelwizard 6mo ago

Who doesn’t have 30 minutes per week to do nothing? I am genuinely asking.

grg0 6mo ago
I don't know but I'm feeling for this guy right now.