4 ms·

Would you be willing to share your math?

ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
Okay, it immediately costs more to buy an EV than it does to run my existing car. The monthly payment to buy an EV is more than I spend on fuel. Then I'd be paying roughly ten times as much for insurance, because it's a new and valuable car, and being "keyless" it cannot be secured in any meaningful way without locking it in a garage, which I don't have. Because I don't have a garage or a driveway I can't park right at my house, so I would not be able to charge at home. So I'd have to park an EV up at the nearest charging point several miles away, cycle home, and then cycle back to the car to retrieve it. This would then be costing roughly the same per mile to charge it up as it costs per mile for propane (my car is dual-fuel). That's before you add in the exorbitant cost of servicing an EV, which can only be done at a dealer. All told, I'd be spending a grand a month to replace a vehicle that costs a couple of hundred a month, that - crucially - wouldn't allow me to actually do the things I need it to do.
- zigman1 7mo ago
  > among people who like me can charge at home OP said this, you clearly don't fall into this category. And if servicing an electric car costs more than servicing an old Landrover I will not eat for a week
  - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
    At the dealer it costs about £300 to get a Kia Niro EV serviced, which needs done every year. It just cost me £75 to service my car, of which nearly £15 was just the cabin air filters which have got bizarrely expensive since last year.
    - Schiendelman 7mo ago
      That sounds like a charge the dealer has made up to try to get you to spend money, not an actual need.
      - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        Why? Don't you think they need serviced or something?
        Sohcahtoa82 7mo ago
        I've owned my Tesla for 6 years and 50,000 miles. The only service it's needed beyond tires, wiper blades, and wiper fluid is a replacement of the low-voltage battery last year, which was under $200. If you're paying $300/year to service your EV, either you drive a LOT or you're getting ripped off. There's nothing in an EV that requires $300/year in service. There's no oil changes, no transmission fluid. Brake pads will last forever since regen should be doing at least 90% of your braking. Sure, maybe you still need tire rotations, but most tire shops will do it for free if you buy tires from them. I do them myself when I do the swap between winter and summer tires.
        ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        > no oil changes, no transmission fluid There is. You think those gears run completely dry? > Brake pads will last forever since regen should be doing at least 90% of your braking. Turns out they don't. Maybe if you are driving slowly in a completely flat part of the world they will. In an ICE-powered car, engine braking does most of the work anyway. Incidentally, a set of brake pads lasts me two or three years, even allowing for pulling heavy trailers quite frequently. They're about £80 for a full set. Brake discs are more expensive but they last a very long time if you don't let the pads wear to the metal.
        Sohcahtoa82 7mo ago
        > There is. You think those gears run completely dry? Sure, there's a fixed gear reduction that is lubricated, but it doesn't need frequent changing. It's a sealed unit. No moisture or debris from the outside gets in. As a result, it lasts an exceptionally long time, likely even the life of the car. > Turns out they don't. Maybe if you are driving slowly in a completely flat part of the world they will. I drive in Portland, which is anything but flat. I rarely use the foot brake. > In an ICE-powered car, engine braking does most of the work anyway. Absolutely not, especially in modern automatics which coast exceptionally well. Another commenter said you're arguing in bad faith, and at this point, I'm highly inclined to believe them. You really just have no idea what you're talking about. Somebody has sold you lies, and the disappointing thing is, you bought the lies and even argue against people with first-hand experience. You really just don't have a clue. If you don't want an EV because an EV doesn't fit your lifestyle, that's fine. You mentioned pulling heavy trailers frequently. EVs absolutely suck balls at that. Sure, they've got tons of torque and certainly have the power to pull a trailer, but their range goes into the toilet. So an EV doesn't work for you, and that's okay, but that doesn't mean you have to believe in lies and spread them. For fuck's sake, the brake pad thing is very widely known and accepted. I have no idea how you got convinced that brake pads in EVs don't last. Yes, they're heavy cars, but regen braking is huge. EVs actually typically have brake problems from the brakes being underused.
- pmg101 7mo ago
  My insurance went down not up when I switched. EV servicing is cheaper and I do it less often. I bought used. The monthly depreciation is less than my previous fuel bill. YMMV.
  - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
    > EV servicing is cheaper and I do it less often. Most EVs need serviced every year and it's about £300 to do so. This is a ridiculous amount.
    - klooney 7mo ago
      What do you need to get serviced every year? Do the tires wear out that fast?
      - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        They need the oil and coolant changed apparently, or they won't warranty the battery. Mine needs a set of tyres every few years, a set of brakes every few years, and an oil change or two a year. None of this is especially expensive.
        Schiendelman 7mo ago
        Oil and coolant? No, someone has lied to you. EVs do not need either changed.
        ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        They need coolant for the battery and motor which degrades, and they need oil for the gearbox. I guess you're in the US, where "lifetime oil" is a thing. Expect the gearbox to be scrap once it's a little outside the warranty period.
        Schiendelman 7mo ago
- Schiendelman 7mo ago
  Those are arguments, not math. Will you share your actual math?
  - throwaway27448 7mo ago
    What would the math look like to make an EV cheaper than using an ICE car you already own? It looks an awful lot like you're just dodging the numbers yourself.
    - Schiendelman 7mo ago
      I would be happy to share the exact numbers I used to figure out replacing a 2017 Ford Fusion with a 2023 Tesla Model 3 would save me money. And it has. When most people make these comparisons, they don't consider depreciation, trade-in value, or maintenance costs. I don't understand what I was dodging though. Can you be really specific? Help me out.
      - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        > I would be happy to share the exact numbers I used to figure out replacing a 2017 Ford Fusion with a 2023 Tesla Model 3 would save me money. And it has. I'd like to see those. Do you own both vehicles outright? Can you buy an EV for less than about £300 per month total running costs (insurance, charging, finance payment, etc) that can tow a 3500kg trailer off road?
  - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
    Okay, for even a very basic EV I'd be paying £400 per month. This is more than the £200-300 or so it costs to run my existing car. Straight off, it's costing me more just to even own one - that's before it turns a wheel. Tax on an EV is free just now, and about £300ish a year for the vehicle I have now, so that's got the difference down a little. Insurance on even a fairly basic EV would be a couple of hundred quid a month, as opposed to a couple of hundred quid a year. This immediately makes running an EV uneconomic. At the end of the five year lease (you can't buy them outright, without getting entirely ripped off) I'd have spent 24 grand to still not actually own a car. This is roughly 100 times as much as I spent to actually own a car. This too makes things uneconomic.
- Tade0 7mo ago
  First time I hear that all EVs are keyless and have expensive insurance. What model were you considering and why only this one?
  - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
    Pretty much everything is keyless these days, which makes them expensive to insure since you can steal them with a very small and inexpensive device. The problem is not just limited to EVs though.
- Sohcahtoa82 7mo ago
  > Because I don't have a garage or a driveway I can't park right at my house, so I would not be able to charge at home. IMO, this matters more than anything else. If you can't charge at home, then an EV becomes rather nonviable unless you drive very little and your usual grocery store has a fast charger. But then public chargers are typically at least double the price per kilowatt hour compared to charging at home.

Okay, it immediately costs more to buy an EV than it does to run my existing car. The monthly payment to buy an EV is more than I spend on fuel. Then I'd be paying roughly ten times as much for insurance, because it's a new and valuable car, and being "keyless" it cannot be secured in any meaningful way without locking it in a garage, which I don't have. Because I don't have a garage or a driveway I can't park right at my house, so I would not be able to charge at home. So I'd have to park an EV up at the nearest charging point several miles away, cycle home, and then cycle back to the car to retrieve it. This would then be costing roughly the same per mile to charge it up as it costs per mile for propane (my car is dual-fuel). That's before you add in the exorbitant cost of servicing an EV, which can only be done at a dealer. All told, I'd be spending a grand a month to replace a vehicle that costs a couple of hundred a month, that - crucially - wouldn't allow me to actually do the things I need it to do.

zigman1 7mo ago
> among people who like me can charge at home OP said this, you clearly don't fall into this category. And if servicing an electric car costs more than servicing an old Landrover I will not eat for a week
- ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
  At the dealer it costs about £300 to get a Kia Niro EV serviced, which needs done every year. It just cost me £75 to service my car, of which nearly £15 was just the cabin air filters which have got bizarrely expensive since last year.
  - Schiendelman 7mo ago
    That sounds like a charge the dealer has made up to try to get you to spend money, not an actual need.
    - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
      Why? Don't you think they need serviced or something?
      - Sohcahtoa82 7mo ago
        I've owned my Tesla for 6 years and 50,000 miles. The only service it's needed beyond tires, wiper blades, and wiper fluid is a replacement of the low-voltage battery last year, which was under $200. If you're paying $300/year to service your EV, either you drive a LOT or you're getting ripped off. There's nothing in an EV that requires $300/year in service. There's no oil changes, no transmission fluid. Brake pads will last forever since regen should be doing at least 90% of your braking. Sure, maybe you still need tire rotations, but most tire shops will do it for free if you buy tires from them. I do them myself when I do the swap between winter and summer tires.
        ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        > no oil changes, no transmission fluid There is. You think those gears run completely dry? > Brake pads will last forever since regen should be doing at least 90% of your braking. Turns out they don't. Maybe if you are driving slowly in a completely flat part of the world they will. In an ICE-powered car, engine braking does most of the work anyway. Incidentally, a set of brake pads lasts me two or three years, even allowing for pulling heavy trailers quite frequently. They're about £80 for a full set. Brake discs are more expensive but they last a very long time if you don't let the pads wear to the metal.
        Sohcahtoa82 7mo ago
        > There is. You think those gears run completely dry? Sure, there's a fixed gear reduction that is lubricated, but it doesn't need frequent changing. It's a sealed unit. No moisture or debris from the outside gets in. As a result, it lasts an exceptionally long time, likely even the life of the car. > Turns out they don't. Maybe if you are driving slowly in a completely flat part of the world they will. I drive in Portland, which is anything but flat. I rarely use the foot brake. > In an ICE-powered car, engine braking does most of the work anyway. Absolutely not, especially in modern automatics which coast exceptionally well. Another commenter said you're arguing in bad faith, and at this point, I'm highly inclined to believe them. You really just have no idea what you're talking about. Somebody has sold you lies, and the disappointing thing is, you bought the lies and even argue against people with first-hand experience. You really just don't have a clue. If you don't want an EV because an EV doesn't fit your lifestyle, that's fine. You mentioned pulling heavy trailers frequently. EVs absolutely suck balls at that. Sure, they've got tons of torque and certainly have the power to pull a trailer, but their range goes into the toilet. So an EV doesn't work for you, and that's okay, but that doesn't mean you have to believe in lies and spread them. For fuck's sake, the brake pad thing is very widely known and accepted. I have no idea how you got convinced that brake pads in EVs don't last. Yes, they're heavy cars, but regen braking is huge. EVs actually typically have brake problems from the brakes being underused.
pmg101 7mo ago
My insurance went down not up when I switched. EV servicing is cheaper and I do it less often. I bought used. The monthly depreciation is less than my previous fuel bill. YMMV.
- ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
  > EV servicing is cheaper and I do it less often. Most EVs need serviced every year and it's about £300 to do so. This is a ridiculous amount.
  - klooney 7mo ago
    What do you need to get serviced every year? Do the tires wear out that fast?
    - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
      They need the oil and coolant changed apparently, or they won't warranty the battery. Mine needs a set of tyres every few years, a set of brakes every few years, and an oil change or two a year. None of this is especially expensive.
      - Schiendelman 7mo ago
        Oil and coolant? No, someone has lied to you. EVs do not need either changed.
        ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
        They need coolant for the battery and motor which degrades, and they need oil for the gearbox. I guess you're in the US, where "lifetime oil" is a thing. Expect the gearbox to be scrap once it's a little outside the warranty period.
        Schiendelman 7mo ago
Schiendelman 7mo ago
Those are arguments, not math. Will you share your actual math?
- throwaway27448 7mo ago
  What would the math look like to make an EV cheaper than using an ICE car you already own? It looks an awful lot like you're just dodging the numbers yourself.
  - Schiendelman 7mo ago
    I would be happy to share the exact numbers I used to figure out replacing a 2017 Ford Fusion with a 2023 Tesla Model 3 would save me money. And it has. When most people make these comparisons, they don't consider depreciation, trade-in value, or maintenance costs. I don't understand what I was dodging though. Can you be really specific? Help me out.
    - ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
      > I would be happy to share the exact numbers I used to figure out replacing a 2017 Ford Fusion with a 2023 Tesla Model 3 would save me money. And it has. I'd like to see those. Do you own both vehicles outright? Can you buy an EV for less than about £300 per month total running costs (insurance, charging, finance payment, etc) that can tow a 3500kg trailer off road?
- ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
  Okay, for even a very basic EV I'd be paying £400 per month. This is more than the £200-300 or so it costs to run my existing car. Straight off, it's costing me more just to even own one - that's before it turns a wheel. Tax on an EV is free just now, and about £300ish a year for the vehicle I have now, so that's got the difference down a little. Insurance on even a fairly basic EV would be a couple of hundred quid a month, as opposed to a couple of hundred quid a year. This immediately makes running an EV uneconomic. At the end of the five year lease (you can't buy them outright, without getting entirely ripped off) I'd have spent 24 grand to still not actually own a car. This is roughly 100 times as much as I spent to actually own a car. This too makes things uneconomic.
Tade0 7mo ago
First time I hear that all EVs are keyless and have expensive insurance. What model were you considering and why only this one?
- ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
  Pretty much everything is keyless these days, which makes them expensive to insure since you can steal them with a very small and inexpensive device. The problem is not just limited to EVs though.
Sohcahtoa82 7mo ago
> Because I don't have a garage or a driveway I can't park right at my house, so I would not be able to charge at home. IMO, this matters more than anything else. If you can't charge at home, then an EV becomes rather nonviable unless you drive very little and your usual grocery store has a fast charger. But then public chargers are typically at least double the price per kilowatt hour compared to charging at home.