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Regardless of whether this particular mission is perfectly planned, this is precisely the kind of thing that will help humanity outgrow the dark age of war, ine
by jgord 7mo ago
Regardless of whether this particular mission is perfectly planned, this is precisely the kind of thing that will help humanity outgrow the dark age of war, inequality and climate mismanagement.
It is a noble endeavor - science, engineering and peaceful exploration hold the keys to our survival and prosperity.
It is also important psychologically to our survival - a reminder there is a bigger pie, that we can solve hard problems, that progress can be made, that competence and education counts, as does courage, and that we can work together for a common cause.
This is the best of America, and for a while we can be proud of the human race.
- lapcat 7mo ago> this is precisely the kind of thing that will help humanity outgrow the dark age of war, inequality and climate mismanagement. How do you figure? The previous Moon missions certainly didn't accomplish that.
- rhubarbtree 7mo agoSparked the environmental movement, to name but one major impact.
- TeMPOraL 7mo agoAlso wrt. "climate mismanagement", pretty much all tools we get to measure climate exist because of space program, and many require it to function.
- 113 7mo agoOkay well we have those already and it hasn't really changed anything.
- TeMPOraL 7mo agoDisagree about the change. Even the fact that you know and care enough to argue this on-line is a change that can be attributed to space missions - and it's even more true about the overall global conversation about climate situation, and all activities taken to help with it. These things do take time though.
- JumpCrisscross 7mo ago> we have those already and it hasn't really changed anything What’s the term for antibiotics having been so successful that we forget all their benefits? The Montreal Protocol worked [1]. It probably couldn’t have without our satellite data. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol
- lapcat 7mo agoThis is absurd. Have you heard of Rachel Carson's 1962 "Silent Spring"?
- nandomrumber 7mo agoNo, what’s that? QED
- dragonwriter 7mo ago> > The previous Moon missions certainly didn't accomplish that. > Sparked the environmental movement, to name but one major impact. It...really didn't. There was a new wave with a different political orientation (less conservative/elite) in the environmental movement roughly contemporary to the space program from—the 1950s through the 1970s—but it was driven by a variety of human driven (nuclear testing, oil spills, etc.) environmental disasters combined with more modern media coverage that occurred in that time than by the space program itself. I know there are people who try to ignore all that and pretend that the whole thing was just the Earthrise photo in 1968 but much of the development of the new character of the movement happened before Earthrise, and even what happened after generally clearly had other more important causes.
- dylan604 7mo agoRegardless of what you think of those first shots from Apollo 8, you have to admit they put things into a different perspective for a lot of people. Seeing the whole of the Earth like that moved a lot of people into realizing this planet is worth saving. That one image was a significant moment causing such a spike in people paying attention that it can be forgiven for being confused as the thing. It's not like John Muir needed to see the Blue Marble image to start his movement. It's just so many more people did
- dragonwriter 6mo ago> Regardless of what you think of those first shots from Apollo 8, you have to admit they put things into a different perspective for a lot of people. “Regardless of what you think about X, you must think Y about X” is a particularly tiresome rhetorical device, but its also being deployed as part of a motte-and-bailey argument here. > It's not like John Muir needed to see the Blue Marble image to start his movement. It's just so many more people did Blue Marble (1990) is a completely different image than Earthrise (1968), and Earthrise was only adopted as a symbol of the environmental movement because the movement was already ascendant when it came out, not because it was the trigger for it.
- rhubarbtree 6mo ago
- TeMPOraL 7mo agoYou don't solve these problems in a single step, but notice how space imagery and analogies pop up every time people try to talk about peace, global problems, mutual empathy, understanding, etc. The Pale Blue Dot, images of Earth from orbit or the Moon, etc. Those are anchors in public consciousness, competing in memetic space with usual divisive, dystopian, hope-draining pictures and soundbites - we need more of them to improve on the big problems, and we absolutely would not have them if not for people actually flying to space. Or, put differently, space exploration is one of the few things "feeding the right wolf" for humanity at large.
- lapcat 7mo ago> You don't solve these problems in a single step Obviously, but there's no evidence that the previous Moon missions were a step toward solving the problems. > notice how space imagery and analogies pop up every time people try to talk about peace, global problems, mutual empathy, understanding, etc. You think these problems will be solved with... photos? How many more photos do we need? Everyone has seen the photos already. I'm sure Putin and Trump have seen the photos of Earth.
- TeMPOraL 7mo agoNobody it'll say space exploration will alone solve those problems. But it helps, and can help more - much more, if we go all the way in and establish permanent economic activity and eventually settlements in the space near Earth and beyond.
- lapcat 7mo ago> if we go all the way in and establish permanent economic activity and eventually settlements in the space near Earth and beyond. Could you please explain exactly how these would help to stop war and inequality? As far as I can tell, space exploration is going to exacerbate inequality, for example, by making Elon Musk even more obscenely wealthy than he already is.
- 7mo ago
- fasterik 7mo agoThe key phrase is "kind of thing". It certainly does matter what kinds of things we focus our attention on as a species. I think you would have to be quite cynical to think that progress in spaceflight over the past 60+ years hasn't had a positive impact.
- lapcat 7mo ago> I think you would have to be quite cynical to think that progress in spaceflight over the past 60+ years hasn't had a positive impact. Spaceflight aside, how exactly has humanity started to outgrow war, inequality, and climate mismanagement? Call me cynical, but I'm not seeing it.
- oceanplexian 7mo agoGlobal rates of poverty are 83% lower than they were in 1969 when we landed on the moon. So actually, millions of lives have massively benefited from science and technology. To be cynical in the face of all that is a personal take, not a reflection of the facts.
- lapcat 7mo ago> Global rates of poverty are 83% lower than they were in 1969 when we landed on the moon. Obvious post hoc fallacy
- nandomrumber 7mo agoIt’s only a fallacy if the purported facts are fallacious. And in the case of lifting most of humanity out of poverty, two things are responsible: capitalism and technology. You can argue that China is a communist state, but it’s the allocation of capital to things that matter that has enable China to thrive.
- lapcat 7mo ago> It’s only a fallacy if the purported facts are fallacious. These don't appear to be the words of someone who understands what the post hoc fallacy is. In any case, the subject is not "capitalism and technology" generally but rather manned Moon missions specifically.
- nandomrumber 7mo agoJust because one thing happened after another thing, doesn’t mean the first thing caused the second thing. Happy now? However, sometimes it is true that the first thing caused the second thing. Therefore, it’s only a fallacy when it’s fallacious. My argument is that going to space was an allocation of capital that mattered in driving technology forward and improved the lives of everyone.
- turtlesdown11 6mo ago
- rdedev 7mo agoI hope it does. But every day that goes by I feel that the future is just going to be like what's shown in the expanse series
- api 7mo agoMy personal take for a long time has been that the primary driver of most war today is boredom. War today is undertaken for entertainment. It's a special kind of entertainment that taps into deep brain stem circuits and provides a false but deeply resonating sense of purpose and meaning. When you hear that "people don't have a sense of meaning," it means their brain stem is not feeling the tribal loyalty emotions connected to warfare. It would be cheaper to solve resource shortages in almost any other way. I don't really buy that explanation, at least for most wars. I think most wars today have roots that are far less rational. Note that this applies IMO to all participants on all sides insofar as they had any role in starting or sustaining the war.
- InexSquirrel 7mo agoWildly disagree with that. I think the overwhelming majority of people want simple, peaceful existence, and that the 'lack of meaning' can be solved through deeper shared community goals and aspirations. More prominent figures like Trump, Putin or al-Assad don't wage war out of boredom, but out of ego, or visions of a glorious future that only they can impart (which I guess is still ego). I also think that the various regional conflicts in Africa are in no way driven by the fact that the various political groups are just sitting there with nothing to do. That said, I do think that a 'common enemy' provides a great deal of focus to communities, as we're wired for it... but the definition of community (who is 'us') is largely malleable and entirely flexible. But it's only one way of providing that meaning. I also think conflict is largely glorified through American media, which is aggressively pushed on a lot of the English speaking world. The videos of the SF soldiers talking about killing people in Iraq and Afghanistan, and how cool it was with no remorse for the taking of life in a conflict that none of the local population asked for. Of the people I've talked to that have been through armed conflict (specifically Angola, and Serbia), and so strongly against conflict that the reactions are almost scary. So no, I don't think conflicts are started or sustained out of a sense of boredom.
- wvbdmp 7mo agoI hope so, but if this goes awry in any way, especially if – god forbid – they lose the crew, my fear is it’ll be a blow to the American hegemony that will be very hard to recover from. Orange man is bad, but I think something like that would add a whole other dimension to the US’s loss of face. I’m as anti-american as they come, but despite everything Pax Americana must be acknowledged and I shudder at the thought of it shattering. Godspeed!
- JumpCrisscross 7mo ago> if – god forbid – they lose the crew, my fear is it’ll be a blow to the American hegemony that will be very hard to recover from This has zero impact on American hegemony. That mission is being prosecuted in Iran and with respect to NATO.
- deleted 7mo ago[deleted]
- PaulDavisThe1st 7mo ago> Pax Americana must be acknowledged and I shudder at the thought of it shattering. Shudder away! We've already had both Carney and the finance minister of Singapore essentially declare Pax Americana to have ended. Everybody else is just being polite. [EDIT: prime minister of Singapore, not finance minister]
- henryfjordan 7mo agoUntil nukes are going off, Pax Americana stands strong.
- PaulDavisThe1st 7mo agoThat's just deterrence. Pax America (used to) mean something much more than that.
- 7mo ago
- dragonwriter 7mo ago> Regardless of whether this particular mission is perfectly planned, this is precisely the kind of thing that will help humanity outgrow the dark age of war, inequality and climate mismanagement. More likely, it is precisely the kind of thing that will be managed specifically to keep people distracted, so that the people who have a near term benefit from the dark age of war, inequality, and climate mismanagement can continue realizing that benefit without interruption by people taking action right up until there is no one left to distract or benefit.
- yodsanklai 7mo ago> this is precisely the kind of thing that will help humanity outgrow the dark age of war, inequality and climate mismanagement. Is that irony or plain naiveness? historically and technically, conquest of space is inseparable from warfare. As for climate change, one can argue that technology is one of the primary driver: aviation alone is estimated to 4% of global temperature rise.
- fc417fc802 7mo agoEnergy use is the driver. Fossil fuels happen to be cheap. It's effectively a coincidence, nothing inherent to technological progress itself except insofar as something like aviation would never have been a commercial success without an exceedingly cheap, dense, and portable method of energy storage. Solar-syngas and solar-battery would have eventually gotten there but we'd all have been taking trains and ships for the past 80 years while riding electrified public transit.
- yodsanklai 7mo agoEnergy and tech are two sides of the same coin
- fc417fc802 6mo agoNot really. Most tech doesn't use much energy at all. It's not uncommon for advances to reduce energy usage. Granted that as something becomes cheaper and easier we tend to scale it up but that's not really a tech thing it's more like a natural force that applies in equal measure to literally everything. It goes beyond humans; all living organisms will exploit available resources to the extent possible provided that doing so increases fitness.
- bouncycastle 7mo agoThis is a new space race. From a geopolitical level, a nation that has a better presence on the moon will have a better strategic advantage.
- turtlesdown11 7mo agoWhat about the mineshaft gap though?
- Larrikin 7mo agoWhat about it makes you think it is important?
- turtlesdown11 6mo agowe of course need the strategic advantage?
- Larrikin 6mo agoCan you explain anything about what you are talking about in more than one sentence?
- turtlesdown11 6mo agoThis is satire. Based on the movie Dr. Strangelove. I'm sarcastically responding to the space race comment. There is an explanation in multiple sentences.
- browningstreet 7mo agoSpace Force would disagree. The talk of taking the Moon would belie.
- m4rtink 7mo agoOld is new again! :) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Horizon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Horizon Next stop - defending the base with claymore sticks! :-) https://www.sandboxx.us/news/featured/project-horizon-nukes-and-shotguns-on-the-moon/ https://www.sandboxx.us/news/featured/project-horizon-nukes-...
- krapp 7mo ago>Regardless of whether this particular mission is perfectly planned, this is precisely the kind of thing that will help humanity outgrow the dark age of war, inequality and climate mismanagement. You watch too much Star Trek. This is precisely the kind of thing that will benefit the military industrial complex, enrich billionaires at the expense of everyone else, and justify the government raping natural resources like it's a little girl locked in a cage. No one cares about space any more and no one engaging in space travel is doing so for science anymore. Those days, if they ever really existed, are over. NASA has been cleansed and gutted and purged of wrongthink and now only exists to further the cause of American propaganda and be parasitized by SpaceX and intelligence agencies.
- Larrikin 7mo agoI guess we should collectively give up on space. The people at NASA are all doing hard science for that notoriously bloated government salary.
- krapp 7mo agoWe actually should. By "we" I mean just Americans, though. Leave the hard science to cultures that still have an educated populace and a government that believes in it. Americans are going to need that money to fund the holy war in Iran over the next decade and to build out Trump's Epstein Memorial ballroom. All that gold filigree is expensive. If I were a Real Scientist working for NASA I would have seen the writing on the wall and packed my bags for greener pastures once Elon let his pack of groyper skiddie goons slash the department's budget because there were too many brown people on the payroll. The United States is no longer a serious nation worthy of scientific endeavor, and it won't be again for a very long time. The next person to set foot on the moon won't be an American. These are just the consequences of the choices the American voters have made.
- Larrikin 7mo agoMeh, sounds like you are not American so telling people in the US to just give up on everything is boring and self serving. If you do have a vote in the US, then you have options to try to make things better. Complaining about pedophiles and people on ketamine in the government is a valid (but extremely small) form of affecting change, but the doom and gloom of everyone should just give up helps no one.
- njarboe 7mo agoI think these space projects are great, can create much good will, and give people dangerous things to do that are worth risking the danger for. But war, inequality, and climate mismanagement are political problems that are not going to be solved (if they need to be solved) by science and engineering (the first two at least).
- fc417fc802 7mo agoIf AGI stages a hostile takeover of all the governments of the world would that count as a technological solution to war and inequality? For that matter I suppose the terminator timeline also counts. Can't have war and inequality if you don't have humans.
- ActorNightly 7mo agoThey can absolutely be solved by science and engineering, people just need to stop being so fucking afraid to break the rules to do whats right.
- njarboe 6mo agoWhat does inequality even mean? Everyone must be identical? The idea of removing inequality is dystopian.
- squibonpig 6mo agoStopping the world's resources from being controlled and directed by a tiny fraction of its population isn't the plot of Harrison Bergeron
- njarboe 6mo agoIt would be great if everyone felt and was in a major way in control of their life. Equal before the law and not much law. The people who want to create "equality" by preventing people from accumulating wealth also want to accumulate power in the state. A tiny fraction of people will also be running a socialist state. Aristocrats are going to aristocrat, as they say.
- elif 7mo agoThe engineering was done in the 70's and 80's. This rocket is built out of leftover shuttle hardware. The exploration in this mission was done 50 years ago. I fail to see how this mission is noble. It's biggest accomplishment is keeping the NASA beurocratic apparatus in tact. This spectacle of a mission is precisely the kind of distraction which enables complacency and allows the "dark age of war" to remain dark.
- mchusma 7mo agoI believe the biggest benefit of going to space, particularly in building space stations, is making humanity focused on building a bigger pie. This is one step towards this. But once we can build (effectively) infinite land, we will be in true abundance.
- throwatdem12311 7mo ago> this is precisely the kind of thing that will help humanity outgrow the dark age of war Just a reminder that even the Utopia of the 23rd century and beyond envisioned by Gene Roddenberry for Star Trek - the Federation and Starfleet are still at their core military institutions. Even war was very much still a thing in his utopic vision, despite the fact that scarcity basically no longer exists so what hell was everyone fighting over anyway? Starfleet is only a few steps removed from the regime in Heinlen’s Starship Troopers. At least Heinlen didn’t pretend that they were enlightened post-imperialists. He was honest about what it was.
- dylan604 7mo agoWasn't war on Earth not the issue but war with other species in the galaxy the issue? Sure, there were some sympathizers trying to sabotage peace, but that's because they wanted to continue warring.
- throwatdem12311 7mo agoThere is the Maquis which are basically insurrectionists/terrorists and Starfleet also has Section 31 for doing wet work. Sisko poisoned a planet’s atmosphere, allowed political assassinations and even Picard did things that could be considered questionable once or twice, even Kirk. Earth is peaceful because well…in a show about exploring space nobody really wants to see conflicts on Earth (there are a few exceptions where it worked though). And they have enough big guns and secret assassins to keep up appearances.
- Melatonic 7mo agoEarth is peaceful because they went through the horrors of WWIII already
- rglover 7mo agoWell said. I'd be lying if I didn't get that little flutter inside watching the launch. It felt like "oh, there's still a flicker in the soul!"
- adamgoodapp 7mo agoOn the contrary, Whitey on the Moon still rings true.
- scarecrowbob 7mo agoYeah, that's the take I have been looking for a spot to drop. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goh2x_G0ct4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goh2x_G0ct4 I believe that folks in the US are, by a large margin, the most highly propagandized group of people in history. It's hard to watch stuff like this. It's not that I don't understand that comparatively space exploration is small compared to the associated costs of the boots that might hit the ground today.
- s5300 7mo ago[dead]
- kzrdude 7mo agoI think it's rather the opposite. That space exploration can only possiblly inspire a nation when there is peace, prosperity and justice for all.
- tonymet 6mo agoDid someone skip 1968-2026 in their history books?