3 ms·

Ha out of curiosity I loaded that same consumer terms URL on both a USA and a UK VPN exit node - sure enough, the UK terms inject that extra clause you quoted b

by giobox 6mo ago

Ha out of curiosity I loaded that same consumer terms URL on both a USA and a UK VPN exit node - sure enough, the UK terms inject that extra clause you quoted banning commercial usage that is not present for USA users. diff of the changes between US and UK: https://www.diffchecker.com/BtqVrR9p/ https://www.diffchecker.com/BtqVrR9p/ There's the usual expected legal boilerplate differences. However, the UK version injects the additional clause at line 134 that has no analog in the US version.

graemep 6mo ago
In the Uk there seem to be separate commercial and consumer terms. In the UK the consumer terms say its subject to English law and the courts of the UK jurisdiction you live in. The commercial terms say that in the UK, Switzerland and the EEA there will be binding arbitration by an arbitrator in Ireland appointed by the President of the Law Society of Ireland.
- giobox 6mo ago
  The UK commercial terms explicitly do not apply to individual user plans. The US also has a separate terms sheet for commercial plans. We are comparing like for like - an individual user using a Claude Pro subscription. A US user can use it for commercial use and be in compliance with the terms, the UK user cannot.
  - conductr 6mo ago
    > A US user can use it for commercial use and be in compliance with the terms, the UK user cannot. But why? My guess is the liability exposure is what they’re trying to control. So you probably can if you’re ok with no liability. It’s still noncompliant to how they wrote it but I would guess it’s the motivation. Unless they really just want to force the UK to pay for all commercial uses, which I suppose is possible.
    - graemep 6mo ago
      I think its because the law in the UK limits exclusions of liabilities in consumer contracts far more than in business contracts (in general consumer law has a LOT of protections that do not apply to business contracts). If you look at the clauses excluding liabilities they are very different. I think the same applies to many other countries so they will also have separate consumer contracts.
      - mjmas 6mo ago
        The law in Australia also has teeth, but visiting the link above just gets me (what seems to be) the US version of the terms without anything around commercial use.
rkagerer 6mo ago
Wow, if you brought a paper contract to court that mutated itself depending which way you look at the paper, I wonder what a judge would think of that? Personally I would crumple it up and pitch it out the window. I don't know why they can't simply be clear about what clauses apply to which geographies. An IP address should not be assumed as a reliable indicator of the jurisdiction in which an end-user resides. (Eg. In addition of VPNs's and unexpected routing, what happens if you travel?)
- adonovan 6mo ago
  I once wrote a contract document in PostScript that changed the wording based on the date. Two parties could cryptographically sign an agreement in the document, which would change when printed on a later date. One of the reasons we don’t use PostScript so much any more.
  - someguyornotidk 6mo ago
    Isn't PDF also programmable? I think it supports javascript and even a subset of PostScript if I'm not mistaken.
    - cassianoleal 6mo ago
      > I think it supports javascript Indeed it does! https://github.com/ading2210/doompdf https://github.com/ading2210/doompdf
- ytoawwhra92 6mo ago
  It's perfectly normal for contracts in different jurisdictions to use different wording and include different clauses. Even within the US, employment contracts with the same organisation may contain different wording depending on the state in which the employment is occurring.
  - solid_fuel 6mo ago
    > It's perfectly normal for contracts in different jurisdictions to use different wording and include different clauses. Before signing, yes, but once signed the contract stays constant. Mutating terms of service are weird - I would expect them to be locked to a canonical URL at least, like "https://.../tos?region=eu" or ideally something that locks the version too, like "https://.../tos?version=eu-002". Let me pose a question from a different angle - these are legal contracts we are talking about, and the version they present to the user apparently changes based only on the client IP address. So if the terms in the EU ToS are better than in the US ToS, what would prevent me from signing up with an EU IP Address the first time? I would expect to be bound to the contract I actually agree to, not just the one they "intended" to show me.

by giobox 6mo ago

graemep 6mo ago

In the Uk there seem to be separate commercial and consumer terms. In the UK the consumer terms say its subject to English law and the courts of the UK jurisdiction you live in. The commercial terms say that in the UK, Switzerland and the EEA there will be binding arbitration by an arbitrator in Ireland appointed by the President of the Law Society of Ireland.

giobox 6mo ago
The UK commercial terms explicitly do not apply to individual user plans. The US also has a separate terms sheet for commercial plans. We are comparing like for like - an individual user using a Claude Pro subscription. A US user can use it for commercial use and be in compliance with the terms, the UK user cannot.
- conductr 6mo ago
  > A US user can use it for commercial use and be in compliance with the terms, the UK user cannot. But why? My guess is the liability exposure is what they’re trying to control. So you probably can if you’re ok with no liability. It’s still noncompliant to how they wrote it but I would guess it’s the motivation. Unless they really just want to force the UK to pay for all commercial uses, which I suppose is possible.
  - graemep 6mo ago
    I think its because the law in the UK limits exclusions of liabilities in consumer contracts far more than in business contracts (in general consumer law has a LOT of protections that do not apply to business contracts). If you look at the clauses excluding liabilities they are very different. I think the same applies to many other countries so they will also have separate consumer contracts.
    - mjmas 6mo ago
      The law in Australia also has teeth, but visiting the link above just gets me (what seems to be) the US version of the terms without anything around commercial use.

rkagerer 6mo ago

Wow, if you brought a paper contract to court that mutated itself depending which way you look at the paper, I wonder what a judge would think of that? Personally I would crumple it up and pitch it out the window. I don't know why they can't simply be clear about what clauses apply to which geographies. An IP address should not be assumed as a reliable indicator of the jurisdiction in which an end-user resides. (Eg. In addition of VPNs's and unexpected routing, what happens if you travel?)

adonovan 6mo ago
I once wrote a contract document in PostScript that changed the wording based on the date. Two parties could cryptographically sign an agreement in the document, which would change when printed on a later date. One of the reasons we don’t use PostScript so much any more.
- someguyornotidk 6mo ago
  Isn't PDF also programmable? I think it supports javascript and even a subset of PostScript if I'm not mistaken.
  - cassianoleal 6mo ago
    > I think it supports javascript Indeed it does! https://github.com/ading2210/doompdf https://github.com/ading2210/doompdf
ytoawwhra92 6mo ago
It's perfectly normal for contracts in different jurisdictions to use different wording and include different clauses. Even within the US, employment contracts with the same organisation may contain different wording depending on the state in which the employment is occurring.
- solid_fuel 6mo ago
  > It's perfectly normal for contracts in different jurisdictions to use different wording and include different clauses. Before signing, yes, but once signed the contract stays constant. Mutating terms of service are weird - I would expect them to be locked to a canonical URL at least, like "https://.../tos?region=eu" or ideally something that locks the version too, like "https://.../tos?version=eu-002". Let me pose a question from a different angle - these are legal contracts we are talking about, and the version they present to the user apparently changes based only on the client IP address. So if the terms in the EU ToS are better than in the US ToS, what would prevent me from signing up with an EU IP Address the first time? I would expect to be bound to the contract I actually agree to, not just the one they "intended" to show me.