4 ms·

I have found the one of the better use cases of llms to be a rubber duck. Explaining a design, problem, etc and trying to find solutions is extremely useful.

I have found the one of the better use cases of llms to be a rubber duck. Explaining a design, problem, etc and trying to find solutions is extremely useful. I can bring novelty, what I often want from the LLM is a better understanding of the edge cases that I may run into, and possible solutions.

monkaiju 6mo ago
I always find folks bringing up rubber ducking as a thing LLMs are good at to be misguided. IMO, what defines rubber ducking as a concept is that it is just the developer explaining what their doing to themselves. Not to another person, and not to a thing pretending to be a person. If you have a "two way" or "conversational" debugging/designing experience it isnt rubber ducking, its just normal design/debugging. The moment I bring in a conversational element, I want a being that actually has problem comprehension and creativity which an LLM by definition does not.
- deleted 6mo ago
  [deleted]
- dexwiz 6mo ago
  Sometimes people just need something else to tell them their ideas are valid. Validation is a core principle of therapeutic care. Procrastination is tightly linked to fear of a negative outcome. LLMs can help with both of these. They can validate ideas in the now which can help overcome some of that anxiety. Unfortunately they can also validate some really bad ideas.
- satvikpendem 6mo ago
  Sometimes I don't want creativity though, I'm just not familiar enough with the solution space and I use the LLM as a sort of gradient descent simulator to the right solution to my problem (the LLM which itself used gradient descent when trained, meta, I know). I am not looking for wholly new solutions, just one that fits the problem the best, just as one could Google that information but LLMs save even that searching time.
  - bandrami 6mo ago
    > I'm just not familiar enough with the solution space Neither is the LLM
    - satvikpendem 6mo ago
      Oftentimes it is though, good enough for my purposes.
      - bandrami 6mo ago
        If you're not familiar with the problem space, by definition you don't know whether or not that's the case. The problem spaces I do know well, I know the LLM isn't good at it, so why would I assume it's better at spaces I don't know?
        satvikpendem 6mo ago
        I said familiar enough, not familiar. For example, let's say I'm building an app I know needs caching, the LLM is very good at telling me what types of caching to use, what libraries to use for each type, and so on, for which I can do more research if I really want to know specifically what the best library out of all the rest are, but oftentimes its top suggestion is, like I said, good enough for my purpose of e.g. caching.
        bandrami 6mo ago
        I still don't get what you're saying. If you possess enough information to accurately judge the LLM's suggestions you possess enough information to decide on your own. There's not really a way around that.
        satvikpendem 6mo ago
        Of course I'm deciding on my own, I'm not letting the LLM decide for me (although some people do). But the point is whatever the suggestion is is merely an implementation detail that either solves my problem or not, not sure what part of that is confusing. Replace LLM with glorified Google and maybe it's less confusing.
- jrowen 6mo ago
  I feel I've had the most success with treating it like another developer. One that has specific strengths (reference/checklists/scanning) and weaknesses (big picture/creativity). But definitely bouncing actual questions that I would say to a person off it.
- Waterluvian 6mo ago
  Maybe it’s just a semantic distinction, which, sure. I guess I’d just call it research? It’s basically the “I’m reading blogs, repos, issue trackers, api docs etc. to get a feel for the problem space” step of meaningful engineering. But I definitely reach for a clear and concise way to describe that my brain and fingers are a firewall between the LLM and my code/workspace. I’m using it to help frame my thinking but I’m the one making the decisions. And I’m intentionally keeping context in my brain, not the LLM, by not exposing my workspace to it.
- WCSTombs 6mo ago
  Absolutely, the whole point of the rubber duck is that it's inanimate. The act of talking to the rubber duck makes you first of all describe your problem in words, and secondly hear (or read) it back and reprocess it in a slightly different way. It's a completely free way to use more parts of your brain when you need to. LLMs are a non-free way for you to make use of less of your brain. It seems to me that these are not the same thing.
- __mharrison__ 6mo ago
  My understanding was that rubber ducking was using a different portion of your brain by speaking the words. The same discovery often happens when you explain a problem to a coworker and midway through the explanation you say "nvm, I know what I did wrong"
globular-toast 6mo ago
Do you not know any people who can help? Suddenly realised how lonely this sounds.
- apsurd 6mo ago
  Coordinating with people is hard and only gets harder as you live. And actually, finding someone that is earnestly receptive to hearing you pitch your half-baked startup ideas (just an example) and is in some capacity qualified to be at all helpful, is uhhh, not easy.
  - globular-toast 6mo ago
    Really? Sometimes I think I'm not very social, then I read something like this. Don't you have any friends? Colleagues? Maybe that's the problem you need to solve rather than sitting in a room burning energy for endless token streams with LLMs that anyone has access to?
    - apsurd 6mo ago
      lol. nobody is proposing this "well if not friends, then...". Appreciate your concern. I am fine. This is for Internet posterity: thought-partnering with AI does not in fact make you a sorry socially inept loser that needs globular-toast to come in and help you dial that helpline. Also: one's friends do not, in reality want to thought-partner about work issues, esoteric hobbies, and that million dollar idea. Also: these friends, every and any one of them it seems, will not in fact speak the word of God into your ear as manifest insight for said work issue, million dollar idea, and so forth.
    - apsurd 6mo ago
      Ah, I couldn't help myself practice my creative writing in the other reply. This reply is more constructive: Both LLM based rubber-ducking and human discussions seem like a win win. I see no reason to jump to labeling unhealthy social connections just for pairing with LLMs.

monkaiju 6mo ago

I always find folks bringing up rubber ducking as a thing LLMs are good at to be misguided. IMO, what defines rubber ducking as a concept is that it is just the developer explaining what their doing to themselves. Not to another person, and not to a thing pretending to be a person. If you have a "two way" or "conversational" debugging/designing experience it isnt rubber ducking, its just normal design/debugging. The moment I bring in a conversational element, I want a being that actually has problem comprehension and creativity which an LLM by definition does not.

deleted 6mo ago
[deleted]
dexwiz 6mo ago
Sometimes people just need something else to tell them their ideas are valid. Validation is a core principle of therapeutic care. Procrastination is tightly linked to fear of a negative outcome. LLMs can help with both of these. They can validate ideas in the now which can help overcome some of that anxiety. Unfortunately they can also validate some really bad ideas.
satvikpendem 6mo ago
Sometimes I don't want creativity though, I'm just not familiar enough with the solution space and I use the LLM as a sort of gradient descent simulator to the right solution to my problem (the LLM which itself used gradient descent when trained, meta, I know). I am not looking for wholly new solutions, just one that fits the problem the best, just as one could Google that information but LLMs save even that searching time.
- bandrami 6mo ago
  > I'm just not familiar enough with the solution space Neither is the LLM
  - satvikpendem 6mo ago
    Oftentimes it is though, good enough for my purposes.
    - bandrami 6mo ago
      If you're not familiar with the problem space, by definition you don't know whether or not that's the case. The problem spaces I do know well, I know the LLM isn't good at it, so why would I assume it's better at spaces I don't know?
      - satvikpendem 6mo ago
        I said familiar enough, not familiar. For example, let's say I'm building an app I know needs caching, the LLM is very good at telling me what types of caching to use, what libraries to use for each type, and so on, for which I can do more research if I really want to know specifically what the best library out of all the rest are, but oftentimes its top suggestion is, like I said, good enough for my purpose of e.g. caching.
        bandrami 6mo ago
        I still don't get what you're saying. If you possess enough information to accurately judge the LLM's suggestions you possess enough information to decide on your own. There's not really a way around that.
        satvikpendem 6mo ago
        Of course I'm deciding on my own, I'm not letting the LLM decide for me (although some people do). But the point is whatever the suggestion is is merely an implementation detail that either solves my problem or not, not sure what part of that is confusing. Replace LLM with glorified Google and maybe it's less confusing.
jrowen 6mo ago
I feel I've had the most success with treating it like another developer. One that has specific strengths (reference/checklists/scanning) and weaknesses (big picture/creativity). But definitely bouncing actual questions that I would say to a person off it.
Waterluvian 6mo ago
Maybe it’s just a semantic distinction, which, sure. I guess I’d just call it research? It’s basically the “I’m reading blogs, repos, issue trackers, api docs etc. to get a feel for the problem space” step of meaningful engineering. But I definitely reach for a clear and concise way to describe that my brain and fingers are a firewall between the LLM and my code/workspace. I’m using it to help frame my thinking but I’m the one making the decisions. And I’m intentionally keeping context in my brain, not the LLM, by not exposing my workspace to it.
WCSTombs 6mo ago
Absolutely, the whole point of the rubber duck is that it's inanimate. The act of talking to the rubber duck makes you first of all describe your problem in words, and secondly hear (or read) it back and reprocess it in a slightly different way. It's a completely free way to use more parts of your brain when you need to. LLMs are a non-free way for you to make use of less of your brain. It seems to me that these are not the same thing.
__mharrison__ 6mo ago
My understanding was that rubber ducking was using a different portion of your brain by speaking the words. The same discovery often happens when you explain a problem to a coworker and midway through the explanation you say "nvm, I know what I did wrong"

globular-toast 6mo ago

Do you not know any people who can help? Suddenly realised how lonely this sounds.

apsurd 6mo ago
Coordinating with people is hard and only gets harder as you live. And actually, finding someone that is earnestly receptive to hearing you pitch your half-baked startup ideas (just an example) and is in some capacity qualified to be at all helpful, is uhhh, not easy.
- globular-toast 6mo ago
  Really? Sometimes I think I'm not very social, then I read something like this. Don't you have any friends? Colleagues? Maybe that's the problem you need to solve rather than sitting in a room burning energy for endless token streams with LLMs that anyone has access to?
  - apsurd 6mo ago
    lol. nobody is proposing this "well if not friends, then...". Appreciate your concern. I am fine. This is for Internet posterity: thought-partnering with AI does not in fact make you a sorry socially inept loser that needs globular-toast to come in and help you dial that helpline. Also: one's friends do not, in reality want to thought-partner about work issues, esoteric hobbies, and that million dollar idea. Also: these friends, every and any one of them it seems, will not in fact speak the word of God into your ear as manifest insight for said work issue, million dollar idea, and so forth.
  - apsurd 6mo ago
    Ah, I couldn't help myself practice my creative writing in the other reply. This reply is more constructive: Both LLM based rubber-ducking and human discussions seem like a win win. I see no reason to jump to labeling unhealthy social connections just for pairing with LLMs.