13 ms·

GNOME (et al): Rotting In Threes

258 points by EdiX 14y ago

mercurial 14y ago
This was posted on r/linux too. While I completely understand that you can't make a UI to please everybody, it's not an excuse to ignore user feedback and sacrifice everything to branding. I had wanted to check out Gnome 3, actually, just out of curiosity, but being one of these people who actually like to select their terminal emulator, I realized I'm not part of the target demographic.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  Once they piss off all distros to the point of migrating off Gnome, nobody will be. And it seems that they are doing just that.
  - Flow 14y ago
    What is Red Hat's role in this? Do they still employ a couple of key GNOME developers?
    - wting 14y ago
      Yes. The two main designers pushing GNOME on its current path both work at RedHat: - William McCann: http://www.linkedin.com/in/williamjonmccann http://www.linkedin.com/in/williamjonmccann - Allan Day: https://live.gnome.org/AllanDay https://live.gnome.org/AllanDay
- ch0wn 14y ago
  I recently switched to Fedora on my desktop, because I wanted to fiddle around with systemd. Coming from Unity, I really enjoyed how snappy it is. And for the rest, I spend most of my time either in my browser or the terminal, so there's not really much I expect from a desktop environment than being fast and stable. I don't really care anymore.
  - GuiA 14y ago
    You might just want to use i3/awesome/xmonad then :)
    - mercurial 14y ago
      Xmonad/awesome (haven't tried i3) are absolutely fantastic, however, in my experience, you need to spend some days tweaking configuration files in order to achieve a satisfying experience (especially if you want dual-screen support to work in a less... interesting way in Xmonad). From what parent was writing, this is exactly what s/he does not want to do.
      - icambron 14y ago
        Funny, the default dual-screen behavior on Xmonad was what sold me on it.
      - regularfry 14y ago
        I found the awesomewm defaults good enough to be useful out of the box on Squeeze. I've made some minor tweaks since then, but nothing major.
        jlgreco 14y ago
        Yeah, the only thing I have ever customized with Awesome is changing the default terminal to xterm. After that it just does exactly what I expect, and doesn't get in my way; I don't know what more I could ask for.
      - spion 14y ago
        In my experience i3 doesn't require any tweaking. It has really sane defaults about pretty much everything. If you do want to configure something, the configuration file is extremely simple and the documentation is really excellent. The default behavior when using a dual screen setup is each screen having some of the workspaces.
      - wting 14y ago
micaeked 14y ago
so, i read through some of that, the complaints about api changes and the developer responses. i did not read the entire thing however, from what i read, i agree with the developers. they want a certain thing, so they are making it. they don't want people changing their ui/ux. if you don't like that, don't use it. use something else. or, fork it. make it what you want it to be
- vacri 14y ago
  You may have missed this gem: Getting in deeper, not only are GNOME devs content to break their own desktop, but they want features removed from apps simply because GNOME no longer supports them!
  - micaeked 14y ago
    umm... just to make sure i understand. they want to change their software. they are telling others who rely on their software supporting something that they are getting rid of that. i see nothing wrong with that. they can do whatever they want with their software. don't like it? fork it, start your own, etc. or am i misunderstanding?
    - vacri 14y ago
      Find the relevant part in the article, it will become clear. Don't forget either that Gnome 3 isn't meant to be 'software just for the devs', it's meant to be a popular, heavyweight desktop that's attractive to a lot of users - so much so that it's meant to be [one of] the "default" linux desktops. Articles like this just show the train crash that is the development process in pursuit of those goals.
      - micaeked 14y ago
        i'm seeing lots of emotions for some reason. don't like a wm? use something else. is a developer from another project harassing you? say "no. go away. shoo". this is just silly
vacri 14y ago
I am really concerned about this effort to encourage and sanction themes and extensions. Sanction is a great word - it's an antonym of itself!
drivebyacct2 14y ago
On the one hand, I don't like Gnome's attitude. On the other hand, I love elementary OS even though it has a similar approach and it builds on Gnome. I think I excuse the behavior because they actually pull off the experience well :/
Tmmrn 14y ago
> > 2.) A close button on the corner of the bubble as soon as a mouseover > > occurs (like Growl, instead of disappearing away) > Same. The design of Notify-OSD is specifically not clickable, and we > would NOT accept patches to change that. Excuse me, Mr. Shuttleworth, but have you tried using blueman? When you get a pairing request blueman expects you to click "accept" in a notification...
- pyre 14y ago
  Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but how? I thought that the interface for notifications was just to provide some text and maybe an icon.
  - fmoralesc 14y ago
    You can also have action buttons in notifications. See, for example, http://minus.com/lbpCsG http://minus.com/lbpCsG which is a minimal MPD client written as a notification for gnome-shell. In gnome 3.6, you can interact with it using only the keyboard (<Super>M, left/right to select the notification, up, left/right to select the button and then enter to activate it), which you can't do with the usual status icons unless the app is programmed to behave like that, and which I think you can't do either with indicators like those used in Unity (though I haven't used that in a while, so I might be wrong).
- takluyver 14y ago
  If a notification requests response buttons, there's a fallback to a basic dialog box, that doesn't look anything like the regular Notify-OSD bubbles. Ubuntu discourages using that, but it does work.
- onli 14y ago
  But surely not from the real notify-osd. Notify-OSD has a specific philosophie behind it. Which is the same excuse the people quoted in this article use, but well. Notify-OSD tries to show these notifications and make them ignorable. Software like pidgin show a constant stream of background-noise. If every notification has the affordance to get clicked, or closed, this gets annoying very fast. By making them not clickable (and probably by that black design), they become easily ignorable if one is focused one specific task, but they remain to deliver some awareness what is going on. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD#Rationale https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD#Rationale Thing is, that works. I can't tolerate moving pieces on my desktop and I always got highly annoyed by the notification-bubbles from before notify-osd or when the daemon fails to start or from Windows. But the black unintrusive notify-osd-notfications i can stand. So for this example, not following that users' wish follows not only their design, but also the wish of users like me.
f4stjack 14y ago
This is so true. And, unfortunately, this rot is not limited to GNOME only IMHO. In the good old days the desktop environments used to be cool and functional. I mean look at kde 2 and compare it with windows 98. Or take kde 3+compiz and compare it with xp and windows vista. Those desktop environments were different, has an unique style and blowing the minds of the windows + mac users. I mean compiz for god's sake. A lot of my friends' eyes go wide when I started rolling my desktop left and right and said it is all native, and uses this much of ram. Having said all of that, let's take a gander to kde 4 and gnome 3. Can you really see that kind of difference and coolness? I, for one, can't see it. What I see is desktop interfaces which tries to macify themselves, which is sad.
- mercurial 14y ago
  I'm not sure I would use compiz as a shining example of something that makes a desktop more functional. Regarding the differences between Gnome 3 and KDE 4: I haven't tried Gnome 3, but from I've read (including TFA), they go out of their way to make the desktop not configurable. Before switching to awesome and then Xmonad, I was a heavy user of KDE 4, and it is extremely customizable. It also had some novel ideas about grouping widgets/applications depending on the current activity of the user, which is probably implemented by now, and which I don't think is present in GNOME 3.
VMG 14y ago
Lots of hilarity and conspiracy in the comments - evidently Google is behind the decline of Mozilla and Redhat is killing Gnome. Gnome3 has it's problems, however I as a user much prefer having one pretty theme and a changing API instead of a stable API and a forest of ugly themes. Despite all the ranting and foaming of mouth, Gnome3.6 still is the best DE out there in my opinion.
- mverwijs 14y ago
  And since limited choice works for you it should also work for the rest of the world?
  - seqastian 14y ago
    It's science. Less options not only make your choice better but also your satisfaction of it.
    - vacri 14y ago
      I have a friend who spent his childhood in the Soviet Union who'd probably like to disagree with you about that.
- psionski 14y ago
  So, where's the pretty theme? Be advised, I most probably don't like the same stuff that you do.
  - VMG 14y ago
    Guess you are unlucky. I'm not being sarcastic either. It just is more difficult to support many different themes than just one.
    - curiousdannii 14y ago
      Especially if you can't/worn't stabilise theme APIs...
graue 14y ago
This was a depressing read. But I noticed there was no dirt on the Xfce project. They continue to produce a useful, stable, customizable desktop environment that doesn't radically change every 6 months or try to force its way on you. And so, I continue to give Xfce my highest recommendation for anyone interested in running desktop/laptop Linux.
- rwmj 14y ago
  Actually I've noticed that Xfce themes are continually broken at the moment, and I wonder if this [GNOME nonsense, not Xfce] is the reason?
  - zem 14y ago
    possibly relevant discussion: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=140277 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=140277
  - wooptoo 14y ago
    They are horribly broken. You can either use Adwaita (GTK3 default) or something like Clearlooks-Phenix to unify GTK2 and GTK3 appearance.
- gasull 14y ago
  What worries me is that GTK might end up breaking Xfce. It seems they don't care about anything else but Gnome3.
  - cmccabe 14y ago
    Xfce is sticking with gtk2, in order to avoid the some of the v3 issues discussed here. Individual applications may still switch to gtk3, in which case those applications will experience the breakages. But that can't be helped-- it's up to the individual application developer. In the same way, you can fire up a KDE application in Xfce and stumble across various KDE bugs. I have no idea what will happen in the long term with regard to Xfce and gtk. Last I checked, there were no developers working on any version of gtk full-time anywhere. So maybe it would be practical for Xfce to fork gtk 2.x. Or maybe gtk 3 will settle down and they'll switch. We'll see. P.S. I use Xfce myself. I think it's the best desktop out there today for Linux.
kzrdude 14y ago
> It is my hope that you are a GNOME app… I can't really wish this guy anything other than good luck and good bye.
compilercreator 14y ago
I disagree about KDE4 not being customizable. While the earlier iterations of KDE4 (such as 4.1) were lacking in options, newer iterations like KDE 4.8/4.9 are really customizable. See also Linus Torvalds' recent post where he also praises the configurability of KDE4, saying that it may even be too configurable.
- klearvue 14y ago
  It is incredibly customisable however the article lists a specific customisation (ability to re-arrange applications in the taskbar) that was in KDE3, missing in KDE4 and is actually useful to have. The ability to tilt desktop widgets at odd angles, mentioned by Linus, is utterly pointless. So the article has it right - they ought to start listening to user input.
  - milliams 14y ago
    > ability to re-arrange applications in the taskbar This is now possible in KDE and has been since at least 4.3 (over 3 years ago).
    - klearvue 14y ago
      Thank you so much! To enable I needed to change 'Sorting' to 'Manually' in Task Manager Settings.
  - pferde 14y ago
    > The ability to tilt desktop widgets at odd angles, mentioned by Linus, is utterly pointless. So the article has it right - they ought to start listening to user input. I have been a KDE4 user for a few years now, and I didn't even know this was possible. Clearly, the mentioned functionality is there, but does not get in your way (as in, you do not accidentally end up with your widgets all in crooked positions). What is wrong with that?
opminion 14y ago
Two golden quotes from a Gnome dev. Beware, they are taken out of context: I guess you have to decide if you are a GNOME app, an Ubuntu app, or an XFCE app and for the first time we may have ability to really shape the user experience and form an identity for the GNOME platform Why would the windows manager be a "brand", rather than the distribution? (Red Hat, Ubuntu). There is no point (for them) in people "recognising the install" if they don't have easy access to it. Having wasted enough time configuring appearance, I now would be in one of two scenarios: 1. Install a Linux distribution such as Ubuntu or Red Hat and then use whatever comes as a default (and avoid fiddling around to save my time for more important things). Won't use Gnome if it is not the default. 2. Install whatever allows me to use the same appearance as in the other machines. SuSE/KDE used to have a "Redmond" theme that looked and behaved like Windows Classic. Do the same in the Windows machines.
- zokier 14y ago
  > Why would the windows manager be a "brand", rather than the distribution? (Red Hat, Ubuntu). GNOME is not a window manager though. The (default) WM in gnome has been sawfish, metacity, and currently mutter. Various components come and go, but the umbrella that is gnome stays, and the brand it has is pretty much the only defining attribute of it.
- EdiX 14y ago
  > Two golden quotes from a Gnome dev. That's not a Gnome dev that's William Jon McCann, the main Gnome 3 designer. That McCann claims ignorance of XFCE without shame is pretty shocking.
  - steevdave 14y ago
    Pretty sure he is more than just a designer. He's the mastermind behind consolekit (now abandoned I guess in favor of logind or some such from systemd).
    - jejones3141 14y ago
      He's also the fellow who brought us gnome-screensaver, which gave a hint of what was to come. It didn't just take away options, it did them under the theory that the user is evil and will do evil things if allowed to set screensaver options. (See https://live.gnome.org/GnomeScreensaver/FrequentlyAskedQuestions https://live.gnome.org/GnomeScreensaver/FrequentlyAskedQuest...)
josephlord 14y ago
Thankfully Ubuntu 12.04 is the Long Term Stable release. I think I'll be sticking with it for a really long time partially due to all this nonsense. If 12.10 was the LTS I would probably have looked at switching distros.
- mverwijs 14y ago
  I was thinking on using CentOS6 on the desktop for this very reason. I'm sad.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  What has 12.04 got that 12.10 hasn't? Not challenging, just interested. Both have fallback, both allow the installation of XFCE4 desktop, both have the Lubuntu-desktop packages?
  - josephlord 14y ago
    Mostly not having to worry about removing shopping lenses and any other things. It's a growing lack of trust in Canonical. I don't use my Linux boxes as a desktop most of the time otherwise I would be giving XFCE a proper try. In fact the main desktop use is child use so I don't want to change it too much.
    - keithpeter 14y ago
      LTS is the way to go for stability, especially with 5 years support on stock Ubuntu. Regarding the Amazon search stuff in 12.10, there is a kill switch in system settings, it was added in an update after all the hooha.
acqq 14y ago
Here's my vote to "Reintroduce location/path bar toggle button." I really need the location edit box in file dialogs, and those %$£% removed it. Now I can't simply paste the whole file path to open or save the file, no, I have to click, scroll, click, scroll for every path component, instead of just one paste. %^$# I also don't understand this "brandmaking" by alienating as much people as possible. Depressive read.
- lnanek2 14y ago
  Ran into that recently as well. Grueling.
- xiaomai 14y ago
  hit ^l in nautilus.
  - pyre 14y ago
    > file dialogs As in the "Open File" or "Save File" widgets in GTK3 (at least I assume it's GTK3 and not GNOME3).
  - andor 14y ago
    It's CTRL+L on my keyboard. In addition to Nautilus and all the file dialogs it also works in browsers and even in Windows's "Explorer" file manager. I use Gnome 3.4, though. Did the Gnome developers remove this shortcut from 3.6?
    - chousuke 14y ago
      You can just start typing a path. Typing / shows an input field, and it has tab completion too.
- regularfry 14y ago
  As far as I recall, the shortcut is to use Ctrl-L in the file manager then drag the target you want into the file dialog. Could be wrong though, it's been a while since I've used Gnome.
bkor 14y ago
Allan Day is a designer, not a developer. Obviously he's not involved in GTK+ development. It is true that GTK+ is not much tested on any other theme than the default theme, but that is a matter of focus and lack of manpower. IMO easier to be honest about it (no focus).
josteink 14y ago
I guess you have to decide if you are a GNOME app, an Ubuntu app, or an XFCE app That's it. Gnome has peaked. No point supporting people who are unable to grasp the idea that they work in a software-community and that pieces, even ones they don't use or make, will need to fit together.
- fmoralesc 14y ago
  The problem here is GNOME, Unity and XFCE really have different user interaction models (full disclosure: I prefer GNOME). At the moment that commend was made (2 years ago, btw), GNOME was toying with the idea of replacing status icons with persistent notifications, while Ubuntu was pushing the use of application indicators (which was the first huge division between the codebases). Indicators (which are menus created though a DBus interface) simply have no place in the gnome-shell, so the library was not merged into Gtk3 (the reasoning was that only things common to all consumers belong there). Transmission uses indicators when available but falls back to using status icons when not available. This makes it a second-class citizen in gnome-shell, even though it works. I think the issue was actually making transmission behave better under GNOME. The discussion in the bug report even provides a patch that doesn't alter the behavior of Transmission when running under other platforms.
  - cmccabe 14y ago
    There's a name for what's going on here: bullying. And it's happening to users, who are being told their concerns about GNOME3 are irrelevant, and also to developers, who are being told that "you have to decide if you are a GNOME app, an Ubuntu app, or an XFCE app." (direct quote, btw.)
- takluyver 14y ago
  This is the really bizarre thing. In the name of consistency, people build GNOME apps, KDE apps, Ubuntu apps to comply with the relevant design and human interface guidelines. Then we go and use Firefox and Libreoffice, which don't exactly fit into any of the desktops. Consistency is nice, but I'll take good inconsistent software over mediocre consistent applications. Only a couple of key apps, like file managers, really seem worth linking with the desktop.
PaulHoule 14y ago
This is news? GNOME killed the Linux desktop on the day it was started. KDE was a real start to a Linux desktop that could have been competitive with Mac OS and Windows. Red Hat didn't like the license, and ever since, Linux has had a plurality of broken desktops and none that work. The oddest thing is that the developers just haven't realized how bad their products are, or that the Linux desktop experience has been consistently getting worse over time. Look at Unity in Ubuntu. All the most basic things, like cut and paste, scrollbars, and window resizing are FUBAR. Rather than recognizing the world-class nature of the shell environment and providing a better -term application, we just get bloated terminals for which cut-and-paste almost works. (I'll admit the system monitor app that comes with Ubuntu is pretty, but I wonder how it makes the CPU go to 25% on a machine that's capable of high-end gaming) This year I learned how to make a "Linux desktop" that's better than all of them. I run Windows 7 or 8, then I install Ubuntu inside of VirtualBox. Most of the time I ssh into it with a putty terminal, which is much better than any -term in Linux? (Why? Why can't Linux make a *-term that's better, or at least not worse, than xterm was in 1993?) Most X Windows apps work great with the cygwin X server, getting managed by Microsoft Windows. The biggest problem is that the people developing this garbage don't have any idea of how bad it is. Mac OS and Windows have been getting better over the last ten years, but Linux enthusiasts won't admit that Linux has been getting worse.
- jiggy2011 14y ago
  Not sure what is wrong with the terminal application? Copy and paste works fine, though you need to do Ctrl + Shift + (C | V) I guess this is because the Ctrl combinations may be required by the terminal apps themselves. If you want fancy tiled terminals there is also terminator or tmux. This is way nicer than powershell which seems to take an age to load and won't let me resize it properly. Not sure how the window resizing is FUBAR, but I also hate the default scrollbar in unity (unless I am running on a netbook).
donniezazen 14y ago
Gnome is heading to its demise. I don't really understand their point. They keep messing up with power menu. 3.4 was shipped without all power options. 3.6 doesn't have logout or hibernation/suspend. Notification system is messed up. It is always hidden and you can't really right click. Ubuntu Developer's are also thinking of switching from developmental build to stable build for Ubuntu. Nautilus has been put on hold. I will not be surprised that Ubuntu will fork Gnome and develop its own variant. Transmission developer sums it up.
josteink 14y ago
After reading the full piece, it's obvious Ubuntu and KDE are not that much better than Gnome. Should we say 2012 looks like the year Linux "lost" the desktop after a few years of prosperity? For someone running Ubuntu 12.10 with "basic" desktop needs, can anyone come up with some recommendations for a more open, forthcoming distro and DE? Someone to reward for their efforts? It seems like using and supporting Ubuntu, Gnome etc at this point would be sending out the wrong signals.
- bigfishl 14y ago
  I am using unstable build of http://elementaryos.org/ http://elementaryos.org/ So far, its excellent. Cant wait for the real release
  - raphinou 14y ago
    I went to their homepage, but I don't see a link there to a description of the project (something like an 'About' page describing the project and its goals)....
- psionski 14y ago
  Linux Mint with Cinnamon seems to be a pretty popular choice nowadays.
  - ThomasQue 14y ago
    Or MATE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATE_%28desktop_environment%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATE_%28desktop_environment%29) which is basically Gnome 2.
- noisy_boy 14y ago
  After years of stubborn refusal to give up Ubuntu 10.10, I finally moved to OpenSUSE 12.2 (which uses KDE 4.8). Setting aside the Yast related rants (which have some substance), I couldn't be happier and the credit goes to KDE. Even though some simple things are still hard to do (you still need to go through few hoops to get a custom application launcher added to taskbar), I haven't yet found something which can't be managed with either straightforward GUI configuration or with scripts. Things I like: 1. I have a sane & traditional icons+multiple taskbar+desktop setup 2. I get to choose how many windows I can see at a given time and what size they are (KDE also remembers the size) 3. Dolphin retains Split/compact/tree view and infact does it with all the customizations I could ask for based on what I need regularly. 4. Dual displays took exactly 2 minutes to setup - all driven by GUI. It even has the audacity to offer me separate wallpapers for each display without actually going through any kludges. Depending on which desktop I right-click and choose "Desktop settings", it allows me to set background etc. for that display. 5. I can choose the sort order and grouping of the applications on the taskbar - I like them unsorted (i.e. the order in which they were launched) and ungrouped (until there are too many and need to be grouped) - all this was configurable in "Task Manager settings". 6. I get to choose my own Terminal Emulator and I'm absolutely happy with Konsole because it even lets me customize the shortcut keys to manage tabs. I could go on (and I never thought I would about KDE; I've always considered the simplicity of Gnome 2 superior to KDE) but KDE 4.8 is a fantastic experience for a Linux power user.
gpvos 14y ago
All this "we have simplified the interface" makes me think of the Emacs antinews file...
- disgruntledphd2 14y ago
  I had no idea this existed! Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Its somewhat wonderful. To save people some searching, here's the antinews file for 24.1: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Antinews.html http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Ant...
likeclockwork 14y ago
I find myself thinking about the historical criticism that has been aimed at the Linux ecosystem, that it lacks design awareness and doesn't have a unified aesthetic principle.. Then I see something like this and I wonder if in a way that wasn't a strength. I mean "brand coherence"? I can't imagine what that has to do with Linux. Everything has always been so configurable, that in a way a lot of aesthetic decisions were left to the user and the app developer. People used Gnome 2, and other desktop environments to design their own desktop. I used Gnome 3 for a few months last year when I was making my swing back to using Linux full time with Fedora. I found it usable enough, but it's lack of configuration options became frustrating because it didn't allow me to fine tune my GUI workflow, it also handled multiple monitors terribly and being unconfigurable didn't allow me to adjust that. I was initially excited about Gnome 3 but it was pretty shallow. KDE 4 is an amazing desktop environment, with lots of configurability and in keeping with letting the user design their own experience. I made a good long stop there, for about a year, optimized my windowing workflow (one size simply does not fit all) then ended using xmonad but running some KDE apps.. It looks like GNOME and Unity are turning against the traditional spirit of the Linux community. I don't think that's for the better. The answer now to the question "I don't like it." for these Desktop Environments is "If you don't like it, tough." where as before it was "If you don't like it, change it." I don't think Linux devs should ape Apple, Google, or Microsoft. Linux can be, and is, for everyone.. but it's especially for hackers and for people who like to tweak their experience. A project like a DE is huge and by turning away from hackers they're going to limit their ability to pick up new devs and devs are going to turn away from the GTK. For some people Ubuntu IS Linux, Gnome IS Linux.. but for others not so much. I don't develop desktop applications currently but I would like to. I don't see myself wanting to start a new project or get intimately involved with one that is dependent on the GTK at this point though.
- vacri 14y ago
  Fine tune? It doesn't even coarse tune. I'm using gnome 3 at the moment and it allows me to set my preferred media player as VLC over the default Totem... but it won't bother using that setting and cranks up Totem every time. Also, rather humorously, the 'preferred applications' part is hidden behind System Settings > System Details > Default Applications. News to the Gnome folks: user app preferences are "Personal" not "System" (using their own terminology). Unless, of course, my selection here changes all users' settings... which would be equally insane.
aes256 14y ago
GNOME is clearly trying to imitate OS X. That much is plain to see. In doing so, it seems the devs have adopted the Apple approach; dictatorial design. In many respects this is a good thing. It gives them the good sense to say "no" to certain proposals; I'm sure there are active GNOME contributors who would prefer Nautilus to have five customizable toolbars, and the system menubar to have a mind-boggling array of system stats. No. Obviously, haters gonna hate. People who get a kick out of relentlessly customizing their desktop environment will no longer feel welcome. GNOME sold out, it went mainstream, whatever. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. This is a victory for ordinary users. This is giving the developers focus. A lot of user suggestions are just pointless distractions from the core goal, which is apparently to imitate OS X as much as possible without being called on it.
- kzrdude 14y ago
  But how do they sustain themselves as an open source project? The Linux kernel has never fooled itself.. it's a system that's foremost useful for its developer to use all day, and then additionally for them to apply for useful work with server/service/consumer hardware. So great, you say, not being self-centric but user-centric. That works if you are employed to create a product, but how well will it work for open source. How will they ever gain developers?
  - Nursie 14y ago
    They won't. They're losing users, losing developers and losing default-install status in multiple distributions.
- paulrouget 14y ago
  I believe in limiting customization to improve consistency and to consolidate your identity. But if you take this path, you better ensure that your UX is rock-solid and will satisfy the majority of your users (what Apple does). I believe that the Gnome User Experience (interaction and visual) is poorly made (I have the feeling that most of the decisions here have not been made by UX people, and have not been seriously backed by user studies - but I'd be glad to be proved otherwise). I also believe that Gnome is targeting an audience they don't have, leaving their current (potential) audience frustrated.
kayoone 14y ago
There is alot of unnecessary Windows bash in that article, mainly because most of the arguments applied could also be said about Apple eg: "...as I read some of the GNOME developer comments below, I was given to believe that this breakage stems from a Microsoft-like climate of preventing users from customizing their systems..."
acabal 14y ago
On one hand, I agree that these projects (Gnome, Unity) are going in bad directions, for much of the reasons the post outlines. On the other hand, I understand the practical necessity of limiting the number of moving parts in a project. If Gnome thinks developer manpower is better spent in a place outside of the theme framework, then that's just a symptom of not having enough developers. It's the practical reality: some parts of the OS get more love than others. I also don't get his Launchpad example either. Canonical never built it for anyone but themselves. Why complain that they won't give open it up? They wrote it, they can do what they want with it. What I think this article is truly complaining about isn't lack of choice or branding, but the core cause of those things: the slow creep of "I know better than you do" design. Personally I blame two actors for this: Steve Jobs and 37 Signals. Steve Jobs made a zillion bucks cramming his design decisions down peoples' throats. 37 Signals was the developer's darling for many years, and were the big early proponents of "opinionated design." Both of these things appeal greatly to a human being's ego: "Yeah, Steve Jobs is right! I'm such a great designer, so if I want to make a zillion bucks, I must realize that users are idiots and my beautiful product will make them love their lives again, and if they don't like it they, can suck it!" "Yeah, 37 Signals is right! I'm so smart, I can decide what my users want, and if they don't like my opinion, they can suck it!" Well, there's no doubt that those models worked for Steve Jobs and 37 Signals. Both are very successful. But when they start preaching that stuff to regular developers who lack the luck and talent to become a multi-million-dollar success, what we get is projects like Gnome 3 and Unity. People acting like design dictators--Steve Jobs--but forgetting that he was a once-in-a-century genius. People acting like their opinions are the best and different ones can suck it--37 Signals--but without the special sauce and determination that made that team successful. Folks: You are not Steve Jobs and you are not 37 Signals. With few exceptions the cult of design dictatorship is the worst thing to happen to fledgling software projects in the past decade. Good designers (both graphic and architectural) can succeed as dictators, but good designers are few and far between. What the cult really does is give bad designers an excuse to be always right. And when bad designers are always right, bad design becomes par for the course.
- cookiecaper 14y ago
  I'm pretty conflicted on which way to vote this. I think your analysis of the fundamental cause is accurate -- developers are becoming big-headed leading on the examples of 37 Signals and Apple, and it has become trendy for a developer to enforce his opinion on the "right" usage path by disallowing any others, even if it takes extra work to do so. But I dislike your assertion that it was all OK for Apple and 37 Signals because they're geniuses or otherwise "special" people (I particularly disagree that Jobs was a "once-in-a-century genius"). You are correct that reading the post, there are many things that strike brilliantly of Jobsism: extreme irritation that someone is making the beautiful thing you built for them less beautiful, and that this must be stopped by any means necessary, even if you have to weld the whole thing shut. And this very approach makes both 37 Signals and Apple products undesirable for many. It is really bad to confuse the issue by telling people "only geniuses dare enter here". That is not the problem. Apple's closed model has come back to bite them time and time again, and Microsoft's marriage to the enterprise has allowed OS X to rise without a serious user-facing competitor on the desktop. Just as happened in the early days of the desktop, Apple's arrogance with iOS is cannibalizing their market share, and Android is emerging as the predominant mobile platform. The closed platform is simply not a real solution, even for the "geniuses" at Apple; they've simply been unchallenged. When an open challenger approaches, Apple's walled garden gets burnt down. It really comes down to the market you're targeting. OS X and Rails are for casual users, people whose needs are very predictable and who simply need to be able to access the thing they want as quickly as possible. This means limiting options, because the likelihood a user will need that option is minimal and because in almost all cases for this audience, it's just more confusing/useless mumbo jumbo that a user must parse when they're looking for their intended setting. This works OK if you expect to stay confined to a relatively stringent niche or two (even if those niches by far comprise the majority of users), like "people who want to use Facebook" or "people who want to feel self-important while they use Photoshop". It's not really the correct approach to solving the problem, but it works for them and limits their irritation. People who use Linux, even if they start as newbies, expect power and flexibility; they expect to be able to customize and hack and build and exploit, and share those hacks and builds and exploits with others. This is really the entire spirit behind open-source software in the first place. The prevailing desktop environments, however, are envious of OS X and want their software to see the glory; they want to be cool, they want to be desired, they want the fame. They want it so bad that they're willing to put all that work into it for free. As such, they feel a necessity to actively pursue the niche of casual users at the expense of the hackers who've used their systems for the last 20 years. The right way to fix this problem, the way that Linux vendors and developers should be focusing on, is NOT to follow the 37 Signals and Apple paradigm of "ideal" usage path protectionism, but to figure out a paradigm that merges both sectors; the hackers and the casuals, linked together in one great whole, allowing full fluidity between both segments. Hackers could relax and forget all that complex stuff it takes to boot up a custom environment once in a while and be mostly OK with the casual interface, and casual users could scale up and make whatever customizations are necessary, eventually becoming full-fledged hackers. The person who designs a system that allows this will be the true genius, the great unifier of the worlds of user interaction. Linux and its systems would be a very useful base system for this, so it's especially sad to see our major projects insistence on fame and glory override the real issues. It's really disheartening to see so many people blindly following Jobs et al down the rabbit hole of arrogance so potent it entirely pervades their product instead of working on the true design issue of unifying the user bases, allowing maximum customization without getting in the users' way. gnome-shell and similar projects are great experiments in UX, but they should be built atop platforms that allow all kinds of other great UX experiments, not platforms that closed-mindedly demand compliance with the "One True Way" of user interaction. Let the One True Way emerge organically; if yours is the best, there's nothing to be afraid of, and making your platform the most flexible and open will easily allow you to incorporate any iterations or improvements that may be contributed by others. I guess, however, the root of the problem is that people refuse to accept any iteration or improvement is possible. They have a fundamental disrespect and arrogance that leaves no room for collaboration. This is the antithesis of open-source software, and perhaps the author is right that Gnome's developers may fit in better at Microsoft.
eric_bullington 14y ago
This is exactly why I moved to Linux Mint (Mate or Cinammon, your choice) on my desktop and crunchbang linux (with openbox) on a relatively low-powered laptop (even though Linux Mint would run fine on it -- I like a little diversity).
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
dkhenry 14y ago
So two things I would like to point out. 1. Gnome is at 3.6 they have many things that are changing rapidly. I don't expect them to limit the things they can do to make the DE _better_ just so that they have a stable API for themes. 2. I actually find myself liking gnome3 and gnome shell better then Xfce ( my fallback for the early days of gnome3 ). The workflow they introduced hurt at first because it was different and scary, but its so natural now I find myself missing it when I work in Xfce or KDE. I know there are some developers who value above all else the freedom and ideals espoused by the FOSS movement and want a system stack that is true to those principles above all others. I am actually enjoying a well _designed_ and coherent desktop experience. Also I have the source code if something really is bothering me I can change it, but I am finding after 15+ years of tweaking config files to get everything to work the way I wanted it to I am now content to just have something that works out of the box even if I have to acclimate myself to some of its nuances. It turns out most of the time what I thought was a problem actually works better for me once I get used to it.
- egh 14y ago
  +1 I've been using gnome 3.6 for the past month. I've been using Linux as my primary desktop for 18 years. I live in emacs. (unix cred established?) gnome 3.6 may not be perfect, but it works well. It's actually remarkable simple. I may go back to using awesomewm + gnome fallback, but gnome 3 is a solid desktop.
- guard-of-terra 14y ago
  It's not about DE, it's about toolkit. Which used to be a common pond but now they like put a fence around it and dump toxic waste into it. The reasoning revolves around it being easier for them and allowing them to do useful things in other places. Guess what, not a good recipe for love of community.
  - dkhenry 14y ago
    but it is about the DE. when GTK was transitioned to the GNOME foundation the Gimp folks essentially let them take it in any direction that benefits the GNOME community. GTK is standalone only in that it has bits that others can use, but it doesn't exist so others can use it. Should they be aware of other who might want to use it, yes. Should they make design decision that hurt their primary purpose so that GTK can be more useful to others ? That's a good question , I tend to side on no.
supar 14y ago
I wouldn't normally care about the state of GNOME, but as a developer myself I'm in a really sorry state of affairs regarding GTK itself. At some point with 2.x, GTK stopped being GIMP's toolkit and became part of GNOME. Fortunately it remained more or less self-contained, but it's no longer the case with GTK3. As an user, I cringe about the usability and responsiveness of GTK3 applications. I really dislike how the built-in dialogs have become. I don't like how some widgets now work. No (easy) theming (as a reversed color theme user) is also a major letdown. I always considered GTK a nice toolkit from the user's perspective, and up to GTK 1.x it was also considerably faster than QT. GTK2 killed that, and at the same time removed any support for exotic OSes. I had 1-line patches refused under pretty much the same reasons you read in the article. But as an user I still preferred GTK because of some nice unix-centric features (tear-off menus -- that disappeared at some point, column-based file browsers -- again killed later, user-customizable key bindings on any application -- can you still do that? I don't even care anymore, low memory, fast engines, etc). But now QT is just superior in any front. QT has native support for OO and nice, consistent, multi-platform API, whereas GTK3 still depends of the shitty glib stack that pretends to be an OO framework (and doing a poor job at it). Ever got random glib warnings by GTK applications on the console? My xsession-errors is full of them. As a developer I just cringe at GTK. It was always bad from day 1, but now it doesn't really make any more sense. Whenever I need to consider a toolkit for a C-only based program (where QT or FLTK is not an option), I usually go for UIP. It's a shame that the looks of these toolkits do not integrate in the rest of the UI. Right now I actively remove any GTK3 application. Whenever an application gets rebuilt I switch to a QT counterpart, which is usually more responsive and more stable over time. GTK didn't deserve this.
- cm3 14y ago
  UIP?
- stuaxo 14y ago
  I'm pretty sure there's a gconf/dconf key somewhere to enable the customisable keys. You can see how customisable keys could confuse a normal user if they did it by accident though. At least improvements are happening to gtk (if slowly for lack of manpower) .. for instance gtk3 makes drawing a lot simpler (a lot more based around cairo) - changes like this are important as it should be quicker to make apps. Toolkits etc do need to refreshed from time to time or they become unmanageable, 10 years or so was pretty good for gtk2, gtk3 is only just getting started.
mpyne 14y ago
rekonq is not the default KDE browser, and is not shipped with the KDE Software Compilation or KDE Platform. Instead, it is a valued KDE-community-developed browser available from our "Extragear" repository. However I will say that even we at KDE are not opposed to configurability in general (especially to the extent listed for GNOME 3 and Unity... as far as I know we don't have a stick up our collective asses regarding the "brand experience"). But we have to maintain patches we accept (e.g. in the case of the task manager). LUCKILY we are quite happy to have even our core components ripped and replaced by something better. E.g. there is Craig Drummond's "Icon Tasks" taskbar available for Plasma (which I use). As far as SVG themes, that was a 10 steps forward, 1 step back kind of thing... overall the desktop is much improved by having those as an option, even if it makes it more difficult to implement color toning. But if someone were to submit a patch implementing "themed color variations" (so that you as a user could choose the "light" color, "dark" color, etc. and the rest of the theme remains unchanged) then I would be very surprised if that were to be rejected outright.
api 14y ago
I like Gnome 3. It strikes me as incomplete, but what's there is good and does not look like cluttery crap. KDE is more feature-complete but looks like a clutterbuck 90s desktop. I can't stand it. After using Apple products for a while (I use both OSes) clutter makes me want to claw my eyes out.
- Andrex 14y ago
  Agreed. Gnome 3 may have a lot of problems, but it's probably the most elegant and "quiet" desktop environment.
silentmars 14y ago
Another article in what has really become a vast sea of Gnome criticism. I definitely appreciate the extensive quoting of Gnome and Ubuntu people, though, which is not too common in these kinds of articles. The thing is, Gnome is focused on an idea of "user experience." What's implicit in this pursuit is their mental model of the user. Who is Gnome for? Well, if you're reading HN, it's probably not for you. They're making it pretty clear that if you're an old school linux person, if you like customization ability, if you like options, then you're not the user they have in mind. For those of us who are not "the users they're looking for," we have to be ok with that, accept that's what they want to do, and make our choice accordingly: we can suck it up and use it anyway, we can use something else, or we can fork Gnome. At the same time, I suspect that they don't really know what they're doing, and the "user" in their "user experience" is largely illusory; the product of the imagination of a few Gnome designers. They seem prepared to double down on this concept though - I think this is the only explanation possible of their arrogance in the face of widespread denunciation from almost every corner of the traditional linux community, including typically scathing flames from Linus. The Gnome people seem to feed on this negativity, like it's validation of their plans. "It is not for you, it is for 'them'" - whoever "they" are. I wonder if their concept of who they're targeting as users couldn't be boiled down to a fairly basic distinction: traditional linux stuff is for people who enjoy using computers, and Gnome is designed for people who don't. Or put another way: people who use computers, versus people used by computers - the latter group belonging to a sort of corporate mindset. Regardless, this mindset is being taken to far in its application to GTK, which for a large number of reasons should not be taken as simply another part of Gnome. It leads to almost a Kubuki Theater situation in which Gnome devs try to push around apps like transmission, which merely uses GTK, to fit into their Gnome user paradigm, while pretending nothing else exists. "I have never heard of XFCE" - come on.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  "Who is Gnome for? Well, if you're reading HN, it's probably not for you. They're making it pretty clear that if you're an old school linux person, if you like customization ability, if you like options, then you're not the user they have in mind." Perhaps it is the 'old school Linux' people who provide much of the voluntary input to open source projects. Perhaps the younger ones who like shiny shiny just buy Apple and set up a terminal to their Linode. Perhaps not good for long term health of the project?
nxn 14y ago
Not only are Windows users moving to Linux, but Windows devs seem to be arriving as well, bringing their diseases with them – corporate ‘kill off the competition’ mentalities that don’t serve Linux, merely exploit it. Delusional is the only way to describe this statement. It almost resembles the garbage Fox News has been giving for reasons why Romney lost the election. First of all, developers in a "corporate" (I emphasize "corporate" because this has nothing to do with windows development) environment generally aren't the ones with the "kill off the competition/brand" mentality. This mentality lives higher up in the corporate chain where business decisions are made. Developers themselves don't make these choices, they simply execute them because that's what the business has decided needs to be done. If the claim was instead that CEOs, VPs, etc, are switching to Linux and getting involved in the management of Gnome, the claim would still be wrong, but at least it could have made some sense.
hnasarat 14y ago
ignorantGuru (the author of that article) ended up talking to Benjamin Otte, the lead developer behind GTK+ currently, about ignorantGuru, about the issue of themes breaking. Otte explained the reasons behind this, and acknowledged not ideal communication and developers and encouraged more to get involved to steer the project in a way that they find desirable. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687752#c9 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687752#c9 As they say, put up, or hack up.

258 points by EdiX 14y ago

This was posted on r/linux too. While I completely understand that you can't make a UI to please everybody, it's not an excuse to ignore user feedback and sacrifice everything to branding. I had wanted to check out Gnome 3, actually, just out of curiosity, but being one of these people who actually like to select their terminal emulator, I realized I'm not part of the target demographic.

guard-of-terra 14y ago
Once they piss off all distros to the point of migrating off Gnome, nobody will be. And it seems that they are doing just that.
- Flow 14y ago
  What is Red Hat's role in this? Do they still employ a couple of key GNOME developers?
  - wting 14y ago
    Yes. The two main designers pushing GNOME on its current path both work at RedHat: - William McCann: http://www.linkedin.com/in/williamjonmccann http://www.linkedin.com/in/williamjonmccann - Allan Day: https://live.gnome.org/AllanDay https://live.gnome.org/AllanDay
ch0wn 14y ago
I recently switched to Fedora on my desktop, because I wanted to fiddle around with systemd. Coming from Unity, I really enjoyed how snappy it is. And for the rest, I spend most of my time either in my browser or the terminal, so there's not really much I expect from a desktop environment than being fast and stable. I don't really care anymore.
- GuiA 14y ago
  You might just want to use i3/awesome/xmonad then :)
  - mercurial 14y ago
    Xmonad/awesome (haven't tried i3) are absolutely fantastic, however, in my experience, you need to spend some days tweaking configuration files in order to achieve a satisfying experience (especially if you want dual-screen support to work in a less... interesting way in Xmonad). From what parent was writing, this is exactly what s/he does not want to do.
    - icambron 14y ago
      Funny, the default dual-screen behavior on Xmonad was what sold me on it.
    - regularfry 14y ago
      I found the awesomewm defaults good enough to be useful out of the box on Squeeze. I've made some minor tweaks since then, but nothing major.
      - jlgreco 14y ago
        Yeah, the only thing I have ever customized with Awesome is changing the default terminal to xterm. After that it just does exactly what I expect, and doesn't get in my way; I don't know what more I could ask for.
    - spion 14y ago
      In my experience i3 doesn't require any tweaking. It has really sane defaults about pretty much everything. If you do want to configure something, the configuration file is extremely simple and the documentation is really excellent. The default behavior when using a dual screen setup is each screen having some of the workspaces.
    - wting 14y ago

micaeked 14y ago

so, i read through some of that, the complaints about api changes and the developer responses. i did not read the entire thing however, from what i read, i agree with the developers. they want a certain thing, so they are making it. they don't want people changing their ui/ux. if you don't like that, don't use it. use something else. or, fork it. make it what you want it to be

vacri 14y ago
You may have missed this gem: Getting in deeper, not only are GNOME devs content to break their own desktop, but they want features removed from apps simply because GNOME no longer supports them!
- micaeked 14y ago
  umm... just to make sure i understand. they want to change their software. they are telling others who rely on their software supporting something that they are getting rid of that. i see nothing wrong with that. they can do whatever they want with their software. don't like it? fork it, start your own, etc. or am i misunderstanding?
  - vacri 14y ago
    Find the relevant part in the article, it will become clear. Don't forget either that Gnome 3 isn't meant to be 'software just for the devs', it's meant to be a popular, heavyweight desktop that's attractive to a lot of users - so much so that it's meant to be [one of] the "default" linux desktops. Articles like this just show the train crash that is the development process in pursuit of those goals.
    - micaeked 14y ago
      i'm seeing lots of emotions for some reason. don't like a wm? use something else. is a developer from another project harassing you? say "no. go away. shoo". this is just silly

vacri 14y ago

I am really concerned about this effort to encourage and sanction themes and extensions. Sanction is a great word - it's an antonym of itself!

drivebyacct2 14y ago

On the one hand, I don't like Gnome's attitude. On the other hand, I love elementary OS even though it has a similar approach and it builds on Gnome. I think I excuse the behavior because they actually pull off the experience well :/

Tmmrn 14y ago

> > 2.) A close button on the corner of the bubble as soon as a mouseover > > occurs (like Growl, instead of disappearing away) > Same. The design of Notify-OSD is specifically not clickable, and we > would NOT accept patches to change that. Excuse me, Mr. Shuttleworth, but have you tried using blueman? When you get a pairing request blueman expects you to click "accept" in a notification...

pyre 14y ago
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but how? I thought that the interface for notifications was just to provide some text and maybe an icon.
- fmoralesc 14y ago
  You can also have action buttons in notifications. See, for example, http://minus.com/lbpCsG http://minus.com/lbpCsG which is a minimal MPD client written as a notification for gnome-shell. In gnome 3.6, you can interact with it using only the keyboard (<Super>M, left/right to select the notification, up, left/right to select the button and then enter to activate it), which you can't do with the usual status icons unless the app is programmed to behave like that, and which I think you can't do either with indicators like those used in Unity (though I haven't used that in a while, so I might be wrong).
takluyver 14y ago
If a notification requests response buttons, there's a fallback to a basic dialog box, that doesn't look anything like the regular Notify-OSD bubbles. Ubuntu discourages using that, but it does work.
onli 14y ago
But surely not from the real notify-osd. Notify-OSD has a specific philosophie behind it. Which is the same excuse the people quoted in this article use, but well. Notify-OSD tries to show these notifications and make them ignorable. Software like pidgin show a constant stream of background-noise. If every notification has the affordance to get clicked, or closed, this gets annoying very fast. By making them not clickable (and probably by that black design), they become easily ignorable if one is focused one specific task, but they remain to deliver some awareness what is going on. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD#Rationale https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NotifyOSD#Rationale Thing is, that works. I can't tolerate moving pieces on my desktop and I always got highly annoyed by the notification-bubbles from before notify-osd or when the daemon fails to start or from Windows. But the black unintrusive notify-osd-notfications i can stand. So for this example, not following that users' wish follows not only their design, but also the wish of users like me.

f4stjack 14y ago

This is so true. And, unfortunately, this rot is not limited to GNOME only IMHO. In the good old days the desktop environments used to be cool and functional. I mean look at kde 2 and compare it with windows 98. Or take kde 3+compiz and compare it with xp and windows vista. Those desktop environments were different, has an unique style and blowing the minds of the windows + mac users. I mean compiz for god's sake. A lot of my friends' eyes go wide when I started rolling my desktop left and right and said it is all native, and uses this much of ram. Having said all of that, let's take a gander to kde 4 and gnome 3. Can you really see that kind of difference and coolness? I, for one, can't see it. What I see is desktop interfaces which tries to macify themselves, which is sad.

mercurial 14y ago
I'm not sure I would use compiz as a shining example of something that makes a desktop more functional. Regarding the differences between Gnome 3 and KDE 4: I haven't tried Gnome 3, but from I've read (including TFA), they go out of their way to make the desktop not configurable. Before switching to awesome and then Xmonad, I was a heavy user of KDE 4, and it is extremely customizable. It also had some novel ideas about grouping widgets/applications depending on the current activity of the user, which is probably implemented by now, and which I don't think is present in GNOME 3.

VMG 14y ago

Lots of hilarity and conspiracy in the comments - evidently Google is behind the decline of Mozilla and Redhat is killing Gnome. Gnome3 has it's problems, however I as a user much prefer having one pretty theme and a changing API instead of a stable API and a forest of ugly themes. Despite all the ranting and foaming of mouth, Gnome3.6 still is the best DE out there in my opinion.

mverwijs 14y ago
And since limited choice works for you it should also work for the rest of the world?
- seqastian 14y ago
  It's science. Less options not only make your choice better but also your satisfaction of it.
  - vacri 14y ago
    I have a friend who spent his childhood in the Soviet Union who'd probably like to disagree with you about that.
psionski 14y ago
So, where's the pretty theme? Be advised, I most probably don't like the same stuff that you do.
- VMG 14y ago
  Guess you are unlucky. I'm not being sarcastic either. It just is more difficult to support many different themes than just one.
  - curiousdannii 14y ago
    Especially if you can't/worn't stabilise theme APIs...

graue 14y ago

This was a depressing read. But I noticed there was no dirt on the Xfce project. They continue to produce a useful, stable, customizable desktop environment that doesn't radically change every 6 months or try to force its way on you. And so, I continue to give Xfce my highest recommendation for anyone interested in running desktop/laptop Linux.

rwmj 14y ago
Actually I've noticed that Xfce themes are continually broken at the moment, and I wonder if this [GNOME nonsense, not Xfce] is the reason?
- zem 14y ago
  possibly relevant discussion: https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=140277 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=140277
- wooptoo 14y ago
  They are horribly broken. You can either use Adwaita (GTK3 default) or something like Clearlooks-Phenix to unify GTK2 and GTK3 appearance.
gasull 14y ago
What worries me is that GTK might end up breaking Xfce. It seems they don't care about anything else but Gnome3.
- cmccabe 14y ago
  Xfce is sticking with gtk2, in order to avoid the some of the v3 issues discussed here. Individual applications may still switch to gtk3, in which case those applications will experience the breakages. But that can't be helped-- it's up to the individual application developer. In the same way, you can fire up a KDE application in Xfce and stumble across various KDE bugs. I have no idea what will happen in the long term with regard to Xfce and gtk. Last I checked, there were no developers working on any version of gtk full-time anywhere. So maybe it would be practical for Xfce to fork gtk 2.x. Or maybe gtk 3 will settle down and they'll switch. We'll see. P.S. I use Xfce myself. I think it's the best desktop out there today for Linux.

kzrdude 14y ago

> It is my hope that you are a GNOME app… I can't really wish this guy anything other than good luck and good bye.

compilercreator 14y ago

I disagree about KDE4 not being customizable. While the earlier iterations of KDE4 (such as 4.1) were lacking in options, newer iterations like KDE 4.8/4.9 are really customizable. See also Linus Torvalds' recent post where he also praises the configurability of KDE4, saying that it may even be too configurable.

klearvue 14y ago
It is incredibly customisable however the article lists a specific customisation (ability to re-arrange applications in the taskbar) that was in KDE3, missing in KDE4 and is actually useful to have. The ability to tilt desktop widgets at odd angles, mentioned by Linus, is utterly pointless. So the article has it right - they ought to start listening to user input.
- milliams 14y ago
  > ability to re-arrange applications in the taskbar This is now possible in KDE and has been since at least 4.3 (over 3 years ago).
  - klearvue 14y ago
    Thank you so much! To enable I needed to change 'Sorting' to 'Manually' in Task Manager Settings.
- pferde 14y ago
  > The ability to tilt desktop widgets at odd angles, mentioned by Linus, is utterly pointless. So the article has it right - they ought to start listening to user input. I have been a KDE4 user for a few years now, and I didn't even know this was possible. Clearly, the mentioned functionality is there, but does not get in your way (as in, you do not accidentally end up with your widgets all in crooked positions). What is wrong with that?

opminion 14y ago

Two golden quotes from a Gnome dev. Beware, they are taken out of context: I guess you have to decide if you are a GNOME app, an Ubuntu app, or an XFCE app and for the first time we may have ability to really shape the user experience and form an identity for the GNOME platform Why would the windows manager be a "brand", rather than the distribution? (Red Hat, Ubuntu). There is no point (for them) in people "recognising the install" if they don't have easy access to it. Having wasted enough time configuring appearance, I now would be in one of two scenarios: 1. Install a Linux distribution such as Ubuntu or Red Hat and then use whatever comes as a default (and avoid fiddling around to save my time for more important things). Won't use Gnome if it is not the default. 2. Install whatever allows me to use the same appearance as in the other machines. SuSE/KDE used to have a "Redmond" theme that looked and behaved like Windows Classic. Do the same in the Windows machines.

zokier 14y ago
> Why would the windows manager be a "brand", rather than the distribution? (Red Hat, Ubuntu). GNOME is not a window manager though. The (default) WM in gnome has been sawfish, metacity, and currently mutter. Various components come and go, but the umbrella that is gnome stays, and the brand it has is pretty much the only defining attribute of it.
EdiX 14y ago
> Two golden quotes from a Gnome dev. That's not a Gnome dev that's William Jon McCann, the main Gnome 3 designer. That McCann claims ignorance of XFCE without shame is pretty shocking.
- steevdave 14y ago
  Pretty sure he is more than just a designer. He's the mastermind behind consolekit (now abandoned I guess in favor of logind or some such from systemd).
  - jejones3141 14y ago
    He's also the fellow who brought us gnome-screensaver, which gave a hint of what was to come. It didn't just take away options, it did them under the theory that the user is evil and will do evil things if allowed to set screensaver options. (See https://live.gnome.org/GnomeScreensaver/FrequentlyAskedQuestions https://live.gnome.org/GnomeScreensaver/FrequentlyAskedQuest...)

josephlord 14y ago

Thankfully Ubuntu 12.04 is the Long Term Stable release. I think I'll be sticking with it for a really long time partially due to all this nonsense. If 12.10 was the LTS I would probably have looked at switching distros.

mverwijs 14y ago
I was thinking on using CentOS6 on the desktop for this very reason. I'm sad.
keithpeter 14y ago
What has 12.04 got that 12.10 hasn't? Not challenging, just interested. Both have fallback, both allow the installation of XFCE4 desktop, both have the Lubuntu-desktop packages?
- josephlord 14y ago
  Mostly not having to worry about removing shopping lenses and any other things. It's a growing lack of trust in Canonical. I don't use my Linux boxes as a desktop most of the time otherwise I would be giving XFCE a proper try. In fact the main desktop use is child use so I don't want to change it too much.
  - keithpeter 14y ago
    LTS is the way to go for stability, especially with 5 years support on stock Ubuntu. Regarding the Amazon search stuff in 12.10, there is a kill switch in system settings, it was added in an update after all the hooha.

acqq 14y ago

Here's my vote to "Reintroduce location/path bar toggle button." I really need the location edit box in file dialogs, and those %$£% removed it. Now I can't simply paste the whole file path to open or save the file, no, I have to click, scroll, click, scroll for every path component, instead of just one paste. %^$# I also don't understand this "brandmaking" by alienating as much people as possible. Depressive read.

lnanek2 14y ago
Ran into that recently as well. Grueling.
xiaomai 14y ago
hit ^l in nautilus.
- pyre 14y ago
  > file dialogs As in the "Open File" or "Save File" widgets in GTK3 (at least I assume it's GTK3 and not GNOME3).
- andor 14y ago
  It's CTRL+L on my keyboard. In addition to Nautilus and all the file dialogs it also works in browsers and even in Windows's "Explorer" file manager. I use Gnome 3.4, though. Did the Gnome developers remove this shortcut from 3.6?
  - chousuke 14y ago
    You can just start typing a path. Typing / shows an input field, and it has tab completion too.
regularfry 14y ago
As far as I recall, the shortcut is to use Ctrl-L in the file manager then drag the target you want into the file dialog. Could be wrong though, it's been a while since I've used Gnome.

bkor 14y ago

Allan Day is a designer, not a developer. Obviously he's not involved in GTK+ development. It is true that GTK+ is not much tested on any other theme than the default theme, but that is a matter of focus and lack of manpower. IMO easier to be honest about it (no focus).

josteink 14y ago

I guess you have to decide if you are a GNOME app, an Ubuntu app, or an XFCE app That's it. Gnome has peaked. No point supporting people who are unable to grasp the idea that they work in a software-community and that pieces, even ones they don't use or make, will need to fit together.

fmoralesc 14y ago
The problem here is GNOME, Unity and XFCE really have different user interaction models (full disclosure: I prefer GNOME). At the moment that commend was made (2 years ago, btw), GNOME was toying with the idea of replacing status icons with persistent notifications, while Ubuntu was pushing the use of application indicators (which was the first huge division between the codebases). Indicators (which are menus created though a DBus interface) simply have no place in the gnome-shell, so the library was not merged into Gtk3 (the reasoning was that only things common to all consumers belong there). Transmission uses indicators when available but falls back to using status icons when not available. This makes it a second-class citizen in gnome-shell, even though it works. I think the issue was actually making transmission behave better under GNOME. The discussion in the bug report even provides a patch that doesn't alter the behavior of Transmission when running under other platforms.
- cmccabe 14y ago
  There's a name for what's going on here: bullying. And it's happening to users, who are being told their concerns about GNOME3 are irrelevant, and also to developers, who are being told that "you have to decide if you are a GNOME app, an Ubuntu app, or an XFCE app." (direct quote, btw.)
takluyver 14y ago
This is the really bizarre thing. In the name of consistency, people build GNOME apps, KDE apps, Ubuntu apps to comply with the relevant design and human interface guidelines. Then we go and use Firefox and Libreoffice, which don't exactly fit into any of the desktops. Consistency is nice, but I'll take good inconsistent software over mediocre consistent applications. Only a couple of key apps, like file managers, really seem worth linking with the desktop.

PaulHoule 14y ago

This is news? GNOME killed the Linux desktop on the day it was started. KDE was a real start to a Linux desktop that could have been competitive with Mac OS and Windows. Red Hat didn't like the license, and ever since, Linux has had a plurality of broken desktops and none that work. The oddest thing is that the developers just haven't realized how bad their products are, or that the Linux desktop experience has been consistently getting worse over time. Look at Unity in Ubuntu. All the most basic things, like cut and paste, scrollbars, and window resizing are FUBAR. Rather than recognizing the world-class nature of the shell environment and providing a better -term application, we just get bloated terminals for which cut-and-paste almost works. (I'll admit the system monitor app that comes with Ubuntu is pretty, but I wonder how it makes the CPU go to 25% on a machine that's capable of high-end gaming) This year I learned how to make a "Linux desktop" that's better than all of them. I run Windows 7 or 8, then I install Ubuntu inside of VirtualBox. Most of the time I ssh into it with a putty terminal, which is much better than any -term in Linux? (Why? Why can't Linux make a *-term that's better, or at least not worse, than xterm was in 1993?) Most X Windows apps work great with the cygwin X server, getting managed by Microsoft Windows. The biggest problem is that the people developing this garbage don't have any idea of how bad it is. Mac OS and Windows have been getting better over the last ten years, but Linux enthusiasts won't admit that Linux has been getting worse.

jiggy2011 14y ago
Not sure what is wrong with the terminal application? Copy and paste works fine, though you need to do Ctrl + Shift + (C | V) I guess this is because the Ctrl combinations may be required by the terminal apps themselves. If you want fancy tiled terminals there is also terminator or tmux. This is way nicer than powershell which seems to take an age to load and won't let me resize it properly. Not sure how the window resizing is FUBAR, but I also hate the default scrollbar in unity (unless I am running on a netbook).

donniezazen 14y ago

Gnome is heading to its demise. I don't really understand their point. They keep messing up with power menu. 3.4 was shipped without all power options. 3.6 doesn't have logout or hibernation/suspend. Notification system is messed up. It is always hidden and you can't really right click. Ubuntu Developer's are also thinking of switching from developmental build to stable build for Ubuntu. Nautilus has been put on hold. I will not be surprised that Ubuntu will fork Gnome and develop its own variant. Transmission developer sums it up.

josteink 14y ago

After reading the full piece, it's obvious Ubuntu and KDE are not that much better than Gnome. Should we say 2012 looks like the year Linux "lost" the desktop after a few years of prosperity? For someone running Ubuntu 12.10 with "basic" desktop needs, can anyone come up with some recommendations for a more open, forthcoming distro and DE? Someone to reward for their efforts? It seems like using and supporting Ubuntu, Gnome etc at this point would be sending out the wrong signals.

bigfishl 14y ago
I am using unstable build of http://elementaryos.org/ http://elementaryos.org/ So far, its excellent. Cant wait for the real release
- raphinou 14y ago
  I went to their homepage, but I don't see a link there to a description of the project (something like an 'About' page describing the project and its goals)....
psionski 14y ago
Linux Mint with Cinnamon seems to be a pretty popular choice nowadays.
- ThomasQue 14y ago
  Or MATE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATE_%28desktop_environment%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MATE_%28desktop_environment%29) which is basically Gnome 2.
noisy_boy 14y ago
After years of stubborn refusal to give up Ubuntu 10.10, I finally moved to OpenSUSE 12.2 (which uses KDE 4.8). Setting aside the Yast related rants (which have some substance), I couldn't be happier and the credit goes to KDE. Even though some simple things are still hard to do (you still need to go through few hoops to get a custom application launcher added to taskbar), I haven't yet found something which can't be managed with either straightforward GUI configuration or with scripts. Things I like: 1. I have a sane & traditional icons+multiple taskbar+desktop setup 2. I get to choose how many windows I can see at a given time and what size they are (KDE also remembers the size) 3. Dolphin retains Split/compact/tree view and infact does it with all the customizations I could ask for based on what I need regularly. 4. Dual displays took exactly 2 minutes to setup - all driven by GUI. It even has the audacity to offer me separate wallpapers for each display without actually going through any kludges. Depending on which desktop I right-click and choose "Desktop settings", it allows me to set background etc. for that display. 5. I can choose the sort order and grouping of the applications on the taskbar - I like them unsorted (i.e. the order in which they were launched) and ungrouped (until there are too many and need to be grouped) - all this was configurable in "Task Manager settings". 6. I get to choose my own Terminal Emulator and I'm absolutely happy with Konsole because it even lets me customize the shortcut keys to manage tabs. I could go on (and I never thought I would about KDE; I've always considered the simplicity of Gnome 2 superior to KDE) but KDE 4.8 is a fantastic experience for a Linux power user.

gpvos 14y ago

All this "we have simplified the interface" makes me think of the Emacs antinews file...

disgruntledphd2 14y ago
I had no idea this existed! Thank you for bringing it to my attention. Its somewhat wonderful. To save people some searching, here's the antinews file for 24.1: http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Antinews.html http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Ant...

likeclockwork 14y ago

I find myself thinking about the historical criticism that has been aimed at the Linux ecosystem, that it lacks design awareness and doesn't have a unified aesthetic principle.. Then I see something like this and I wonder if in a way that wasn't a strength. I mean "brand coherence"? I can't imagine what that has to do with Linux. Everything has always been so configurable, that in a way a lot of aesthetic decisions were left to the user and the app developer. People used Gnome 2, and other desktop environments to design their own desktop. I used Gnome 3 for a few months last year when I was making my swing back to using Linux full time with Fedora. I found it usable enough, but it's lack of configuration options became frustrating because it didn't allow me to fine tune my GUI workflow, it also handled multiple monitors terribly and being unconfigurable didn't allow me to adjust that. I was initially excited about Gnome 3 but it was pretty shallow. KDE 4 is an amazing desktop environment, with lots of configurability and in keeping with letting the user design their own experience. I made a good long stop there, for about a year, optimized my windowing workflow (one size simply does not fit all) then ended using xmonad but running some KDE apps.. It looks like GNOME and Unity are turning against the traditional spirit of the Linux community. I don't think that's for the better. The answer now to the question "I don't like it." for these Desktop Environments is "If you don't like it, tough." where as before it was "If you don't like it, change it." I don't think Linux devs should ape Apple, Google, or Microsoft. Linux can be, and is, for everyone.. but it's especially for hackers and for people who like to tweak their experience. A project like a DE is huge and by turning away from hackers they're going to limit their ability to pick up new devs and devs are going to turn away from the GTK. For some people Ubuntu IS Linux, Gnome IS Linux.. but for others not so much. I don't develop desktop applications currently but I would like to. I don't see myself wanting to start a new project or get intimately involved with one that is dependent on the GTK at this point though.

vacri 14y ago
Fine tune? It doesn't even coarse tune. I'm using gnome 3 at the moment and it allows me to set my preferred media player as VLC over the default Totem... but it won't bother using that setting and cranks up Totem every time. Also, rather humorously, the 'preferred applications' part is hidden behind System Settings > System Details > Default Applications. News to the Gnome folks: user app preferences are "Personal" not "System" (using their own terminology). Unless, of course, my selection here changes all users' settings... which would be equally insane.

aes256 14y ago

GNOME is clearly trying to imitate OS X. That much is plain to see. In doing so, it seems the devs have adopted the Apple approach; dictatorial design. In many respects this is a good thing. It gives them the good sense to say "no" to certain proposals; I'm sure there are active GNOME contributors who would prefer Nautilus to have five customizable toolbars, and the system menubar to have a mind-boggling array of system stats. No. Obviously, haters gonna hate. People who get a kick out of relentlessly customizing their desktop environment will no longer feel welcome. GNOME sold out, it went mainstream, whatever. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. This is a victory for ordinary users. This is giving the developers focus. A lot of user suggestions are just pointless distractions from the core goal, which is apparently to imitate OS X as much as possible without being called on it.

kzrdude 14y ago
But how do they sustain themselves as an open source project? The Linux kernel has never fooled itself.. it's a system that's foremost useful for its developer to use all day, and then additionally for them to apply for useful work with server/service/consumer hardware. So great, you say, not being self-centric but user-centric. That works if you are employed to create a product, but how well will it work for open source. How will they ever gain developers?
- Nursie 14y ago
  They won't. They're losing users, losing developers and losing default-install status in multiple distributions.
paulrouget 14y ago
I believe in limiting customization to improve consistency and to consolidate your identity. But if you take this path, you better ensure that your UX is rock-solid and will satisfy the majority of your users (what Apple does). I believe that the Gnome User Experience (interaction and visual) is poorly made (I have the feeling that most of the decisions here have not been made by UX people, and have not been seriously backed by user studies - but I'd be glad to be proved otherwise). I also believe that Gnome is targeting an audience they don't have, leaving their current (potential) audience frustrated.

kayoone 14y ago

There is alot of unnecessary Windows bash in that article, mainly because most of the arguments applied could also be said about Apple eg: "...as I read some of the GNOME developer comments below, I was given to believe that this breakage stems from a Microsoft-like climate of preventing users from customizing their systems..."

acabal 14y ago

On one hand, I agree that these projects (Gnome, Unity) are going in bad directions, for much of the reasons the post outlines. On the other hand, I understand the practical necessity of limiting the number of moving parts in a project. If Gnome thinks developer manpower is better spent in a place outside of the theme framework, then that's just a symptom of not having enough developers. It's the practical reality: some parts of the OS get more love than others. I also don't get his Launchpad example either. Canonical never built it for anyone but themselves. Why complain that they won't give open it up? They wrote it, they can do what they want with it. What I think this article is truly complaining about isn't lack of choice or branding, but the core cause of those things: the slow creep of "I know better than you do" design. Personally I blame two actors for this: Steve Jobs and 37 Signals. Steve Jobs made a zillion bucks cramming his design decisions down peoples' throats. 37 Signals was the developer's darling for many years, and were the big early proponents of "opinionated design." Both of these things appeal greatly to a human being's ego: "Yeah, Steve Jobs is right! I'm such a great designer, so if I want to make a zillion bucks, I must realize that users are idiots and my beautiful product will make them love their lives again, and if they don't like it they, can suck it!" "Yeah, 37 Signals is right! I'm so smart, I can decide what my users want, and if they don't like my opinion, they can suck it!" Well, there's no doubt that those models worked for Steve Jobs and 37 Signals. Both are very successful. But when they start preaching that stuff to regular developers who lack the luck and talent to become a multi-million-dollar success, what we get is projects like Gnome 3 and Unity. People acting like design dictators--Steve Jobs--but forgetting that he was a once-in-a-century genius. People acting like their opinions are the best and different ones can suck it--37 Signals--but without the special sauce and determination that made that team successful. Folks: You are not Steve Jobs and you are not 37 Signals. With few exceptions the cult of design dictatorship is the worst thing to happen to fledgling software projects in the past decade. Good designers (both graphic and architectural) can succeed as dictators, but good designers are few and far between. What the cult really does is give bad designers an excuse to be always right. And when bad designers are always right, bad design becomes par for the course.

cookiecaper 14y ago
I'm pretty conflicted on which way to vote this. I think your analysis of the fundamental cause is accurate -- developers are becoming big-headed leading on the examples of 37 Signals and Apple, and it has become trendy for a developer to enforce his opinion on the "right" usage path by disallowing any others, even if it takes extra work to do so. But I dislike your assertion that it was all OK for Apple and 37 Signals because they're geniuses or otherwise "special" people (I particularly disagree that Jobs was a "once-in-a-century genius"). You are correct that reading the post, there are many things that strike brilliantly of Jobsism: extreme irritation that someone is making the beautiful thing you built for them less beautiful, and that this must be stopped by any means necessary, even if you have to weld the whole thing shut. And this very approach makes both 37 Signals and Apple products undesirable for many. It is really bad to confuse the issue by telling people "only geniuses dare enter here". That is not the problem. Apple's closed model has come back to bite them time and time again, and Microsoft's marriage to the enterprise has allowed OS X to rise without a serious user-facing competitor on the desktop. Just as happened in the early days of the desktop, Apple's arrogance with iOS is cannibalizing their market share, and Android is emerging as the predominant mobile platform. The closed platform is simply not a real solution, even for the "geniuses" at Apple; they've simply been unchallenged. When an open challenger approaches, Apple's walled garden gets burnt down. It really comes down to the market you're targeting. OS X and Rails are for casual users, people whose needs are very predictable and who simply need to be able to access the thing they want as quickly as possible. This means limiting options, because the likelihood a user will need that option is minimal and because in almost all cases for this audience, it's just more confusing/useless mumbo jumbo that a user must parse when they're looking for their intended setting. This works OK if you expect to stay confined to a relatively stringent niche or two (even if those niches by far comprise the majority of users), like "people who want to use Facebook" or "people who want to feel self-important while they use Photoshop". It's not really the correct approach to solving the problem, but it works for them and limits their irritation. People who use Linux, even if they start as newbies, expect power and flexibility; they expect to be able to customize and hack and build and exploit, and share those hacks and builds and exploits with others. This is really the entire spirit behind open-source software in the first place. The prevailing desktop environments, however, are envious of OS X and want their software to see the glory; they want to be cool, they want to be desired, they want the fame. They want it so bad that they're willing to put all that work into it for free. As such, they feel a necessity to actively pursue the niche of casual users at the expense of the hackers who've used their systems for the last 20 years. The right way to fix this problem, the way that Linux vendors and developers should be focusing on, is NOT to follow the 37 Signals and Apple paradigm of "ideal" usage path protectionism, but to figure out a paradigm that merges both sectors; the hackers and the casuals, linked together in one great whole, allowing full fluidity between both segments. Hackers could relax and forget all that complex stuff it takes to boot up a custom environment once in a while and be mostly OK with the casual interface, and casual users could scale up and make whatever customizations are necessary, eventually becoming full-fledged hackers. The person who designs a system that allows this will be the true genius, the great unifier of the worlds of user interaction. Linux and its systems would be a very useful base system for this, so it's especially sad to see our major projects insistence on fame and glory override the real issues. It's really disheartening to see so many people blindly following Jobs et al down the rabbit hole of arrogance so potent it entirely pervades their product instead of working on the true design issue of unifying the user bases, allowing maximum customization without getting in the users' way. gnome-shell and similar projects are great experiments in UX, but they should be built atop platforms that allow all kinds of other great UX experiments, not platforms that closed-mindedly demand compliance with the "One True Way" of user interaction. Let the One True Way emerge organically; if yours is the best, there's nothing to be afraid of, and making your platform the most flexible and open will easily allow you to incorporate any iterations or improvements that may be contributed by others. I guess, however, the root of the problem is that people refuse to accept any iteration or improvement is possible. They have a fundamental disrespect and arrogance that leaves no room for collaboration. This is the antithesis of open-source software, and perhaps the author is right that Gnome's developers may fit in better at Microsoft.

eric_bullington 14y ago

This is exactly why I moved to Linux Mint (Mate or Cinammon, your choice) on my desktop and crunchbang linux (with openbox) on a relatively low-powered laptop (even though Linux Mint would run fine on it -- I like a little diversity).

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

dkhenry 14y ago

So two things I would like to point out. 1. Gnome is at 3.6 they have many things that are changing rapidly. I don't expect them to limit the things they can do to make the DE _better_ just so that they have a stable API for themes. 2. I actually find myself liking gnome3 and gnome shell better then Xfce ( my fallback for the early days of gnome3 ). The workflow they introduced hurt at first because it was different and scary, but its so natural now I find myself missing it when I work in Xfce or KDE. I know there are some developers who value above all else the freedom and ideals espoused by the FOSS movement and want a system stack that is true to those principles above all others. I am actually enjoying a well _designed_ and coherent desktop experience. Also I have the source code if something really is bothering me I can change it, but I am finding after 15+ years of tweaking config files to get everything to work the way I wanted it to I am now content to just have something that works out of the box even if I have to acclimate myself to some of its nuances. It turns out most of the time what I thought was a problem actually works better for me once I get used to it.

egh 14y ago
+1 I've been using gnome 3.6 for the past month. I've been using Linux as my primary desktop for 18 years. I live in emacs. (unix cred established?) gnome 3.6 may not be perfect, but it works well. It's actually remarkable simple. I may go back to using awesomewm + gnome fallback, but gnome 3 is a solid desktop.
guard-of-terra 14y ago
It's not about DE, it's about toolkit. Which used to be a common pond but now they like put a fence around it and dump toxic waste into it. The reasoning revolves around it being easier for them and allowing them to do useful things in other places. Guess what, not a good recipe for love of community.
- dkhenry 14y ago
  but it is about the DE. when GTK was transitioned to the GNOME foundation the Gimp folks essentially let them take it in any direction that benefits the GNOME community. GTK is standalone only in that it has bits that others can use, but it doesn't exist so others can use it. Should they be aware of other who might want to use it, yes. Should they make design decision that hurt their primary purpose so that GTK can be more useful to others ? That's a good question , I tend to side on no.

supar 14y ago

I wouldn't normally care about the state of GNOME, but as a developer myself I'm in a really sorry state of affairs regarding GTK itself. At some point with 2.x, GTK stopped being GIMP's toolkit and became part of GNOME. Fortunately it remained more or less self-contained, but it's no longer the case with GTK3. As an user, I cringe about the usability and responsiveness of GTK3 applications. I really dislike how the built-in dialogs have become. I don't like how some widgets now work. No (easy) theming (as a reversed color theme user) is also a major letdown. I always considered GTK a nice toolkit from the user's perspective, and up to GTK 1.x it was also considerably faster than QT. GTK2 killed that, and at the same time removed any support for exotic OSes. I had 1-line patches refused under pretty much the same reasons you read in the article. But as an user I still preferred GTK because of some nice unix-centric features (tear-off menus -- that disappeared at some point, column-based file browsers -- again killed later, user-customizable key bindings on any application -- can you still do that? I don't even care anymore, low memory, fast engines, etc). But now QT is just superior in any front. QT has native support for OO and nice, consistent, multi-platform API, whereas GTK3 still depends of the shitty glib stack that pretends to be an OO framework (and doing a poor job at it). Ever got random glib warnings by GTK applications on the console? My xsession-errors is full of them. As a developer I just cringe at GTK. It was always bad from day 1, but now it doesn't really make any more sense. Whenever I need to consider a toolkit for a C-only based program (where QT or FLTK is not an option), I usually go for UIP. It's a shame that the looks of these toolkits do not integrate in the rest of the UI. Right now I actively remove any GTK3 application. Whenever an application gets rebuilt I switch to a QT counterpart, which is usually more responsive and more stable over time. GTK didn't deserve this.

cm3 14y ago
UIP?
stuaxo 14y ago
I'm pretty sure there's a gconf/dconf key somewhere to enable the customisable keys. You can see how customisable keys could confuse a normal user if they did it by accident though. At least improvements are happening to gtk (if slowly for lack of manpower) .. for instance gtk3 makes drawing a lot simpler (a lot more based around cairo) - changes like this are important as it should be quicker to make apps. Toolkits etc do need to refreshed from time to time or they become unmanageable, 10 years or so was pretty good for gtk2, gtk3 is only just getting started.

mpyne 14y ago

rekonq is not the default KDE browser, and is not shipped with the KDE Software Compilation or KDE Platform. Instead, it is a valued KDE-community-developed browser available from our "Extragear" repository. However I will say that even we at KDE are not opposed to configurability in general (especially to the extent listed for GNOME 3 and Unity... as far as I know we don't have a stick up our collective asses regarding the "brand experience"). But we have to maintain patches we accept (e.g. in the case of the task manager). LUCKILY we are quite happy to have even our core components ripped and replaced by something better. E.g. there is Craig Drummond's "Icon Tasks" taskbar available for Plasma (which I use). As far as SVG themes, that was a 10 steps forward, 1 step back kind of thing... overall the desktop is much improved by having those as an option, even if it makes it more difficult to implement color toning. But if someone were to submit a patch implementing "themed color variations" (so that you as a user could choose the "light" color, "dark" color, etc. and the rest of the theme remains unchanged) then I would be very surprised if that were to be rejected outright.

api 14y ago

I like Gnome 3. It strikes me as incomplete, but what's there is good and does not look like cluttery crap. KDE is more feature-complete but looks like a clutterbuck 90s desktop. I can't stand it. After using Apple products for a while (I use both OSes) clutter makes me want to claw my eyes out.

Andrex 14y ago
Agreed. Gnome 3 may have a lot of problems, but it's probably the most elegant and "quiet" desktop environment.

silentmars 14y ago

Another article in what has really become a vast sea of Gnome criticism. I definitely appreciate the extensive quoting of Gnome and Ubuntu people, though, which is not too common in these kinds of articles. The thing is, Gnome is focused on an idea of "user experience." What's implicit in this pursuit is their mental model of the user. Who is Gnome for? Well, if you're reading HN, it's probably not for you. They're making it pretty clear that if you're an old school linux person, if you like customization ability, if you like options, then you're not the user they have in mind. For those of us who are not "the users they're looking for," we have to be ok with that, accept that's what they want to do, and make our choice accordingly: we can suck it up and use it anyway, we can use something else, or we can fork Gnome. At the same time, I suspect that they don't really know what they're doing, and the "user" in their "user experience" is largely illusory; the product of the imagination of a few Gnome designers. They seem prepared to double down on this concept though - I think this is the only explanation possible of their arrogance in the face of widespread denunciation from almost every corner of the traditional linux community, including typically scathing flames from Linus. The Gnome people seem to feed on this negativity, like it's validation of their plans. "It is not for you, it is for 'them'" - whoever "they" are. I wonder if their concept of who they're targeting as users couldn't be boiled down to a fairly basic distinction: traditional linux stuff is for people who enjoy using computers, and Gnome is designed for people who don't. Or put another way: people who use computers, versus people used by computers - the latter group belonging to a sort of corporate mindset. Regardless, this mindset is being taken to far in its application to GTK, which for a large number of reasons should not be taken as simply another part of Gnome. It leads to almost a Kubuki Theater situation in which Gnome devs try to push around apps like transmission, which merely uses GTK, to fit into their Gnome user paradigm, while pretending nothing else exists. "I have never heard of XFCE" - come on.

keithpeter 14y ago
"Who is Gnome for? Well, if you're reading HN, it's probably not for you. They're making it pretty clear that if you're an old school linux person, if you like customization ability, if you like options, then you're not the user they have in mind." Perhaps it is the 'old school Linux' people who provide much of the voluntary input to open source projects. Perhaps the younger ones who like shiny shiny just buy Apple and set up a terminal to their Linode. Perhaps not good for long term health of the project?

nxn 14y ago

Not only are Windows users moving to Linux, but Windows devs seem to be arriving as well, bringing their diseases with them – corporate ‘kill off the competition’ mentalities that don’t serve Linux, merely exploit it. Delusional is the only way to describe this statement. It almost resembles the garbage Fox News has been giving for reasons why Romney lost the election. First of all, developers in a "corporate" (I emphasize "corporate" because this has nothing to do with windows development) environment generally aren't the ones with the "kill off the competition/brand" mentality. This mentality lives higher up in the corporate chain where business decisions are made. Developers themselves don't make these choices, they simply execute them because that's what the business has decided needs to be done. If the claim was instead that CEOs, VPs, etc, are switching to Linux and getting involved in the management of Gnome, the claim would still be wrong, but at least it could have made some sense.

hnasarat 14y ago

ignorantGuru (the author of that article) ended up talking to Benjamin Otte, the lead developer behind GTK+ currently, about ignorantGuru, about the issue of themes breaking. Otte explained the reasons behind this, and acknowledged not ideal communication and developers and encouraged more to get involved to steer the project in a way that they find desirable. https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687752#c9 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687752#c9 As they say, put up, or hack up.