6 ms·

Incidentally, many countries/states are working hard to make it impossible to transition that early.

• andsoitis 6mo ago
  At 12 you simply do not have sufficient capacity to make a good decision on the matter.
  • appreciatorBus 6mo ago
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    • Ralfp 6mo ago
      Have you considered that due to their education and research those people may know more on the subject than you do? Regret rates for transition remain notoriously low (within 2%) with main reasons for regret stated to be transitioning too late or environmental lack of acceptance or support. Besides, despite some orgs claiming there is a "transgender trend", we are just not seeing this in the data.
      • AdrianB1 6mo ago
        That sounds like appeal to authority, it is classified as a fallacy.
        • Ralfp 6mo ago
          Why is it okay for OP to question authority in the subject matter while me pointing out they research it more isn't? I have also pointed out that regret rates for transition are within 2%.
        • dekhn 6mo ago
          it's only a fallacy in purely logical arguments. Appeal to authority makes sense in medical, scientific, engineering, and other contexts when the arguments necessarily depend on ambiguous data and subjective conclusions.
      • ipaddr 6mo ago
        It's hard to impossible to go back. But the suicide rate is high.
        • Ralfp 6mo ago
          It is high because primarily a minority stress of being a transgender person in unaccepting environment: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666560325001082 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266656032...
          • ipaddr 6mo ago
            After reading the above I don't believe they concluded stress of living in a non-accepting world is the primary reason. 30% think about killing themselves and 4%+ try each year is shocking. I think whatever side of the debate you are on we can agree things aren't working out for too many people who go through this process. If this was a drug or vaccine or hair shampoo it would have been pulled off the market.
            • dpark 6mo ago
              > people who go through this process Through what process? This was a study about trans and nonbinary people, not specifically about people who have “transitioned” I would imagine the rate of depression and similar disorders in trans people is extremely high. To be so unsatisfied with one’s own body that you consider (or go through) major treatment and surgery to change something so fundamental.
      • salemh 6mo ago
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        • dpd_dpd 6mo ago
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          • pnexk 6mo ago
            You created this account exclusively to articulate transphobic misinformation?
            • dpd_dpd 6mo ago
              What misinformation?
          • Ralfp 6mo ago
            Media research points to transgender topic being spun primarily by traditional media and social media as a political wedge issue to mobilize right-leaning voters, akin to abortion rights before: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/16/us/politics/transgender-conservative-campaign.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/16/us/politics/transgender-c... https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/Anti-trans-attitudes-have-existed-for-years-but-organised-disinformation-campaigns-are-increasingly-driving-them https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/Anti-trans-attitudes... https://www.mediamatters.org/facebook/right-dominating-facebook-engagement-content-about-trans-issues https://www.mediamatters.org/facebook/right-dominating-faceb...
        • Ralfp 6mo ago
          In 2017 Johns Hopkins Hospital has reopened its transgender care clinic as the Johns Hopkins Center for Transgender and Gender Expansive Health. 2022 research into Hospital's archives found the decision to cease operation in 1979 was political, not evidence based: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36191317/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36191317/ > *70%-80% of children who expressed transgender feelings, overtime, lost those feelings. This number most likely comes from a study that classified girls as transgender based on behaviors like preference to wear their hair short of wear pants instead of dresses or skirt: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21216800/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21216800/ Those children did not self-identify as transgender and further more, research could not contact 41% of them for the follow up: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-end-of-the-desistance_b_8903690 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-end-of-the-desistance_b_8...
      • appreciatorBus 6mo ago
        > despite some orgs claiming there is a "transgender trend", we are just not seeing this in the data.' Rapid-onset gender dysphoria is a well documented phenomenon. https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(16)30765-0/abstract https://www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(16)30765-0/abst... https://statsforgender.org/since-the-turn-of-the-millennium-there-has-been-a-twenty-fold-rise-in-the-number-of-young-people-seeking-medical-transition-cross-sex-hormones-and-surgeries/ https://statsforgender.org/since-the-turn-of-the-millennium-...
        • Ralfp 6mo ago
          It is not. Lisa Littmans research behind „rapid onset gender dysphoria” is a survey amongst parents recruited on three anti-trans internet sites and communities: https://psychcentral.com/lib/there-is-no-evidence-that-rapid-onset-gender-dysphoria-exists https://psychcentral.com/lib/there-is-no-evidence-that-rapid... The study was based on 256 responses to an online survey of parents recruited from these three websites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid-onset_gender_dysphoria_c... That by itself means its heavily biased research on a weak sample. „Stats for Gender” site is ran by Genspect, which is also a biased source on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genspect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genspect
          • appreciatorBus 6mo ago
            > Genspect, which is also a biased source on the subject: Organization that supports position <x> supports position <x>. If Genspect can be discarded as being a biased source, then so can WPATH and every other org supporting gender ideology. Given the fraught nature of the debate, Wikipedia seems like a poor source for determining the bias of players in the debate - the most passionate debaters have plenty of time to just edit Wikipedia.
            • Ralfp 6mo ago
              Can you explain what „gender ideology” is supposed to mean? The primary issue with Genspect is poor scientific rigour applied to their publications, as I have shown above. Pretty much „if it fits our platform, we will spread it”.
    • mvc 6mo ago
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      • nslsm 6mo ago
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      • zahlman 6mo ago
        They do not make that decision, and it is entirely irrelevant to the discussion.
      • nomdep 6mo ago
        Indeed, that’s a barbaric custom, akin to genital mutilation, that should be reserved for a real medical necessity, never for religious reasons
        • TimorousBestie 6mo ago
          It is literally a form of genital mutilation. The foreskin is homologous to the hood of the clitoris.
      • erxam 6mo ago
        Hey, you aren't supposed to question our glorious metzitzah b'peh!
  • skyyler 6mo ago
    Which is why puberty blockers are prescribed to transgender children, delaying puberty until later in life when a "good decision" can be made, usually closer to the mid to late teens.
    • Aurornis 6mo ago
      Sadly, it's not possible to "delay puberty" until later in life without permanent consequences. Puberty cannot simply be resumed later. Puberty blockers alter hormones dramatically during critical growth phases. The changes can't be reversed later as if hormones were not altered during critical phases if the person changes their mind.
      • delecti 6mo ago
        It is absolutely possible, and it has been done in cisgender children with precocious puberty for decades. > Puberty blockers alter hormones dramatically during critical growth phases. Which is generally the goal. It is of course not possible to retroactively have allowed puberty to progress as though the blockers had never been taken, but it is possible to cease the blockers and allow it to resume, again, as is done for cisgender children who take them. It almost feels like you're arguing definitions.
        • Aurornis 6mo ago
          > It is absolutely possible, and it has been done in cisgender children with precocious puberty for decades Precocious puberty is a condition in which puberty happens earlier than it's supposed to. The goal of puberty blockers in precocious puberty is to delay puberty until the correct age and physiological growth window. Puberty blocker in precocious puberty are also not used to induce hormonal profiles that are different than the body's eventual genetic set point, just to delay them until typical puberty ages. Delaying puberty until it aligns with the body's expected pubertal ages is completely different. You cannot extrapolate and claim this as evidence that we can safely delay puberty until adulthood, well beyond pubertal age. > but it is possible to cease the blockers and allow it to resume, again I don't understand what you're trying to claim, but ceasing the medications does not reverse the changes they made during critical teenage growth windows.
  • Retric 6mo ago
    That subtilely implies it’s a decision to view oneself as a different gender from what was assigned at birth, but it’s not entirely clear it’s a choice in every case. Edge cases in biology get wild and sex assigned at birth can be a near arbitrary decision. Ex: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics) Parents making major medical decisions has a huge precedent in a wide range of procedures with significant risks and consequences. Separating conjoined twins for example.
    • 4gotunameagain 6mo ago
      It is entirely clear that it can be the case, as proven by the existence of people "detransitioning". It is also entirely clear that there have been parents (usually mothers) who wanted to have a trans child because it was cool.
      • Retric 6mo ago
        There is a logical flaw in suggesting that something that occurs with a small percentage of a population such as “detransitioning” implies anything about every member of a population. Child abuse exists, but doesn’t imply anything about every parent.
        • blindriver 6mo ago
          > There is a logical flaw in suggesting that something that occurs with a small percentage of a population such as “detransitioning” implies anything about every member of a population. > Child abuse exists, but doesn’t imply anything about every parent. This is funny because that's the exact argument that transphobic opponents say about trans people themselves and the argument as to why gender fluidity or gender outside of sex doesn't exist. "Just because an extremely small number of people believe they are a different gender than their biological sex doesn't mean that gender is different from biological sex" is almost exactly the argument that transphobes use.
          • Retric 6mo ago
  • locknitpicker 6mo ago
    > At 12 you simply do not have sufficient capacity to make a good decision on the matter. At 12 kids do not have sufficient capacity to handle any major decision, including any medical procedure. That does not take away their right to see their best interests represented and defended.
  • undersuit 6mo ago
    Then we should prescribe puberty blockers to everyone until they can make such a decision.
  • locopati 6mo ago
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    • pneumic 6mo ago
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      • crote 6mo ago
        So what about the kids who already get all of that and still say they are transgender? Should they perhaps be treated like they actually are transgender, or do you propose forced conversion therapy - like we tried in the past with gay people and left-handed people? Puberty blockers aren't being handed out like candy. There's a rather intense psychological diagnostic process before it.
        • pneumic 6mo ago
          Give them love and care, and let them grow out of it. Do not sterilize and mutilate them—a most extreme form of “conversion therapy”.
          • crote 6mo ago
            You assume they will "grow out of it". You are ignoring the fact that the majority of them won't grow out of it - even when given love and care.
  • esterna 6mo ago
    And yet we cannot stop time, and a decision has to be made. It seems natural to involve the child in this decision. Of course, the next best thing (if a decision can't be made now) after stopping time are puberty blockers. Which are not completely without risks, but this applies to the other two options just as well (if not more so). You can't not make decisions, and to claim so is to frame choosing one particular option as not-a-decision.
  • erxam 6mo ago
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  • crote 6mo ago
    The obvious solution is to prescribe puberty blockers to 100% of children. After all, how can a 12-year-old decide that they are cis - they don't have the capacity for that yet. They can undergo the right puberty, whatever that may be, once their brain has matured. That suddenly looks like a very silly argument, doesn't it?
• whackernews 6mo ago
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