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Has anyone measured trans athletes performance? I see this topic come up repeatedly in different guises, protect women from the evil trans-agenda. But I haven'

Has anyone measured trans athletes performance? I see this topic come up repeatedly in different guises, protect women from the evil trans-agenda. But I haven't seen where this is actually a problem. Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes?

lelanthran 7mo ago
> Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes? Regularly. It's the competing women who are complaining, though. They feel it is unfair to compete with men.
- happymellon 7mo ago
  Citation? I asked because I'm curious, and Googling just gives opinion pieces and not data. [Edit] Currently -3 but no study referenced. Do people just not like the idea of providing evidence for their position? The women I've spoken to about this article cite men being the problem, whether its sexual harassment, or other sexist attitudes. Not one felt that trans participation in their sport of choice was in their top ten complaints.
  - lelanthran 7mo ago
    > I asked because I'm curious, and Googling just gives opinion pieces and not data. Women complaining are voicing an opinion. Is this a good enough citation for the claim that women don't want to compete with men? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gndSDgsMnKI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gndSDgsMnKI
    - happymellon 7mo ago
      Considering I was asking whether there was evidence on trans-performance, sure it matters a little. That's fine if they don't want to compete with men, but the statements were because "it's unfair". I was curious if there had been any studies on this.
      - lelanthran 7mo ago
        > Considering I was asking whether there was evidence on trans-performance, sure it matters a little. Well, (and I hesitate to say this because of HN guidelines, but) it was in the article, which I assumed you read. It was this assumption that made me think you wanted evidence that it is women who are complaining about competing against men. FTFA > Late last year Dr. Jane Thornton, the I.O.C.’s medical and scientific director and a Canadian former Olympic rower, presented the initial findings of a review of athletes who are transgender or have differences of sexual development, known as DSD, and are competing in women’s sports. That analysis, which has not been made public, stated athletes born with male sexual markers retained physical advantages, including among those that had received treatment to reduce testosterone.
        happymellon 7mo ago
        I don't see that anywhere in the linked Yahoo article. Does it have a link to any of the findings?
        lelanthran 7mo ago
        The linked article is to the nytimes. I dunno which article is the yahoo one. This story was on the nytimes, it's the one under discussion. > Does it have a link to any of the findings? The findings I posted where from the linked article, to the nytimes. The findings were exactly as I posted them; in brief, athletes born with male markers retain their physical advantages.
        generj 7mo ago
        There’s probably a reason the analysis has not been made public. It’s not evidence until published because it can’t be disputed.
      - throwawaytea 7mo ago
        [flagged]
        7mo ago
    - greygoo222 7mo ago
      You can debate what policies are the most fair without calling trans women "men."
      - lelanthran 7mo ago
        > You can debate what policies are the most fair without calling trans women "men." You're correct - man/woman are gender identities, male/female are biological facts. The more accurate version of that statement (which, btw, is not mine, I am just repeating what the complaints are) is: "Females don't want to compete with males." Happy?
  - back_to_reality 7mo ago
    Citation? Data? Let's take Paris 2024 track and field 800 m as an example, I won't do all the googling for you. In men's heats, the slowest clocked time was a hair under 1:55. In women's finals (consequently the fastest time of the competition), the winner clocked in at a bit under 1m57, whereas the men's final was won with 1:41 and change. You may look up other competitions by yourself. The reason for the lack of "citation", or "data" as you call it, is because men typically are not allowed to enter women's competitions, for that - rooted-in-reality reason I just demonstrated.
    - altruios 7mo ago
      You do understand there is a difference between a trans-woman and a man and that you are comparing incorrect data?
      - back_to_reality 7mo ago
        Please do demonstrate the difference in this context.
        altruios 7mo ago
        Hormone expression. Muscle mass. Reaction time. Weight. A YEAR of hormone therapy. Meeting a required measured threshold of testosterone. And that's not even the controversial stuff. A man and a trans-woman are different. hell, one has (generalizing here) boobs: come on... don't be dense/obtuse! Have you tried running fast suddenly having boobs when you did not before?!?! ...one is way easier.
        deleted 7mo ago
        [deleted]
    - AnEro 7mo ago
      Well, trans women given current regulations that allowed competition with cis women, would have had to be on hormone replacement therapy for 3-5 years depending on the sport. So the data and context does matter, because the intuitive conclusion you came to isn't touching a dataset to find the rooted-in-reality conclusion. The question is 'is a male with a female hormone balance for over X period time with in a fair difference in biological function to females.'. Which is a complex question, since so many things are at play. How much does fast twitch muscle fiber is retained? How much does that even matter for the sport in question?(ballet vs sprinting) Did they go through male puberty? Where are they working out to retain their muscle mass through their 3-5 year transition period and not losing any of their originally gained muscle? What would it look like if they intentionally lost the muscle mass and then retrained it back? I find those to be fascinating questions, the later we have little research on, currently, and it could enlighten so much more of exercise science especially for cis athletes as well.
  - LunicLynx 7mo ago
    This is more about logic. For this article to be relevant a spot for the Olympics of either gender has been taken by a trans athlete. Which by conclusion means that a trans person outperformed the other gender. Taking part in the Olympics is a difficult endeavor, for which you must qualify first.
    - Dylan16807 7mo ago
      That's a misleading way to talk about "outperforming". When the US brings over 200 people to the olympics, then if cis and trans athletes have exactly the same performance and without other bias you'd expect to see 1-2 trans US olympians every year just by chance. And you'd expect them to have the same medal rates as anyone else from the US. When someone asks if there's evidence of trans athletes outperforming cis athletes, that's not what they're asking for.
    - crote 7mo ago
      Look up Elizabeth Swaney, she got to the Olympics by not falling off her skis. And I mean that quite literally: Ignoring DNFs she was dead last in all the qualifying events, but by doing a massive amount of them she somehow managed to get enough points in total to qualify. Or there's Eric Moussambani, who participated in the 100 meter freestyle swimming without ever having seen an Olympic-sized swimming pool before. Similarly with a Jamaica bobsleigh team: horribly equipment, very little experience, still at the Olympics. At the top it is indeed about being the absolute best, but at the bottom it is very much about being a competition between nations, and for some countries being the best at an obscure sport can still mean being pretty bad at it.
      - LunicLynx 7mo ago
        Exactly my point, your country is only sending you to the Olympics if you are their absolute best. The competitive part does not start at the Olympics. The Olympics are already the price.
  - cbnotfromthere 7mo ago
    Do you really need a citation to understand that biological males perform better than biological females at basically any imaginable sport?
  - mvdtnz 7mo ago
    [flagged]
  - 113 7mo ago
    Here is a meta-analysis that says trans women don't exhibit significant differences in performance: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/60/3/198 https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/60/3/198
    - dpd_dpd 7mo ago
      Here's an in-depth critique of the claims made in that paper: https://www.voidifremoved.co.uk/p/beef-trifle https://www.voidifremoved.co.uk/p/beef-trifle
      - 113 7mo ago
        That is a blog.
        dpd_dpd 7mo ago
        It is, yes. It is also a substantive critique pointing out methodological issues in that meta-analysis.
        113 7mo ago
        Not really!
- beachWholesaleS 7mo ago
  Source?
  - LunicLynx 7mo ago
    A source is not required, taking part in the Olympics alone, means outperforming your countries other athletes. If that doesn’t happen there wouldn’t be a reason for the article.
    - deleted 7mo ago
      [deleted]
  - lelanthran 7mo ago
    From the article: > Late last year Dr. Jane Thornton, the I.O.C.’s medical and scientific director and a Canadian former Olympic rower, presented the initial findings of a review of athletes who are transgender or have differences of sexual development, known as DSD, and are competing in women’s sports. That analysis, which has not been made public, stated athletes born with male sexual markers retained physical advantages, including among those that had received treatment to reduce testosterone. Let's be a little science-focused, okay?
    - generj 7mo ago
      > That analysis, which has not been made public So much for science.
    - brendoelfrendo 7mo ago
      I would be interested to see that analysis, and it's unfortunate that it is not publicly available in some fashion. I'm mainly curious about the number of DSD-expressing vs transgender athletes they reviewed. Trans athletes in the Olympics or even competing at an Olympic level are vanishingly rare.
    - ethin 7mo ago
      That very quoted section indicates the analysis has not been made public. IMO that's very fishy and makes me question the authenticity of the source. What is Dr. Thornton hiding, exactly? Why conceal the review, methodology and data? Even if preliminary it should be released.
- atmavatar 7mo ago
  The problem is that someone who's transitioned is no longer a man. After undergoing surgery and hormone treatment for a long period of time, a trans athlete falls somewhere between men and women in terms of capability. They'd have no more success competing against men than naturally born women would, yet they still have advantages when competing against naturally born women. Unfortunately, while the most equitable solution might be to create a separate category unique to trans individuals, there aren't enough trans athletes to make it feasible (yet?). It's rather sad that transitioning means a person can no longer compete in sports, but I'm not sure there's a better alternative.
  - altruios 7mo ago
    Is there actually an advantage? that's toted. but no one can ever point to real data about it... and all the data suggests the exact opposite... that for most cases: cis-women out-compete trans-women.
    - lelanthran 7mo ago
      > but no one can ever point to real data about it... It's in the article. You may not agree with their findings, but it's there.
      - generj 7mo ago
        It’s not in the article. They list their findings but no data. They effectively are just issuing an opinion. The opinion may be more considered than the rest of ours, but it’s not data.
  - asdff 7mo ago
    You still have your larger bone structure. Larger musculature structure and different muscle insertions. different ligament structure. different skin structure. different grip strength. Broader shoulders, narrower pelvis, different angled limbs. all of that isn't going away even if it atrophies. And you aren't going to let it atrophy because you are an athlete in training managing your dietary macros. Maybe recovery isn't as efficient lacking so much excess testosterone but you still have some.
somat 7mo ago
No idea on the hard data. but... We classify competitions for a reason. The competition is more interesting when the competitors are categorized into similar ability. You can't bring your formula1 to a touring car race just because you feel like it is a touring car. Personally I think at the top level there should be an unlimited class. within the rules of the sport anyone can enter, then at various lower prestige levels participation is limited according to some parameter.
- dmbche 7mo ago
  > No idea on the hard data Great thanks!
- mbajkowski 7mo ago
  One interesting example of this is the UTR system for tennis. It is agnostic in gender as wells as age, and tournaments can be held purely based on the UTR range
- altruios 7mo ago
  bad comparison - here is one better, not a perfect one... You can't enter a car into a boating competition. The question here is: if you take basic precautions to make it the same class of boat - a modified car turned into a boat should be a valid entry - provided the engine speed roughly matches. People worry about cars on water here, not knowing that doesn't exist by definition: any car in water has been modified from a car to be a boat. you may recognize that it was once a car - but that's vestigial shell stuff. the inter-workings are a propeller - not a wheel.
  - boringg 7mo ago
    I see your argument and has some merit but isn't persuasive enough. I would posit that its a bit too loose and that it breaks down on biological people have many more complicated systems that aren't simply re-categorized similar to your car and boat comparison. For better or worse nor is our medical science sophisticated enough to swap out the systems to be true comparables (and I don't mean to offend anyone).
egypturnash 7mo ago
"born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) The usual term is "cisgender", or "cis" for short. "Cis" and "Trans" both come from Latin; the former means "the same side of" and the latter means "the other side of". If you are happy to be on the same side of the gender binary as what you were assigned when you were born then you are "cisgender"; if you are unhappy with that state of affairs (regardless of how much work you have put into changing it) then you are "transgender".
- happymellon 7mo ago
  Now you say it like that, I did know that. Thank you.
  - egypturnash 7mo ago
    You're welcome! <3
- JK-Swizzle 7mo ago
  Adding to this: If you do not want to reference the current gender, you can also use "Assigned Female at Birth" (AFAB), or "Assigned Male at Birth" (AMAB). This is useful when clarifying terms, when you do not know the persons identity, or when discussing groups based on the factory default settings.
  - egypturnash 7mo ago
    Yep. :)
  - fourseventy 7mo ago
    A female or male is not 'assigned' anything. Just because you are confused about biological reality doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    - thrance 7mo ago
      Just because you are confused about the distinction between gender and sex doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
dragonwriter 7mo ago
> Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes? No, both because there are very few trans athletes in competition, and because trans athletes (except trans women who have not started or are less than a year into hormone therapy) have net athletic disadvantages, when considering all factors relevant to performance in almost any real sport, compared to cisgender people of the same gender identity. I mean, if you had a sport that isolated grip strength alone, trans women would have an advantage over cis women, but aside from rather contrived cases like that, they don't. There's a reason the poster woman for the political movement around this in the US is a cisgender woman whose story of "unfair competition" is tying with a trans woman for fifth place behind four other cisgender women (and having to hold a sixth place trophy in photos, since there were not duplicates on hand for the same rank) in an intercollegiate swimming competition.
- cvwright 7mo ago
  You’re conveniently ignoring the Olympic boxing champion from 2024 who beat the absolute shit out of the female competitors.
  - jkbbwr 7mo ago
    Are you talking about Imane Khelif? The woman who was born a woman, competed her whole life as a woman and is still last time I checked, a woman?
    - frm88 7mo ago
      A woman with an SRY gene undergoing treatment to reduce testosterone levels to typical female level. https://nypost.com/2026/02/06/sports/imane-khelif-opens-up-on-natural-male-gene-while-agreeing-to-undergo-testing-for-2028-olympics/ https://nypost.com/2026/02/06/sports/imane-khelif-opens-up-o...
- frm88 7mo ago
  900 medals won by transgender athletes in women's sports. https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/un-study-reveals-transgender-athletes-have-won-nearly-900-medals-in-womens-competitions-united-nations-sports-lgbt-gender-identity-title-ix-athletics https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/un-study-... Consider that wins in any professional competition sport carries with it sponsorships, advertising stints, apparal lines or similar. For many women athletes this is a considerable part of their lively hood - include prize money etc. in terms of notoriety that gets displaced by the current regulation.
AnEro 7mo ago
Many studies show with in ~10% female ranges of ability , but, having more fast twitch muscle fiber and bone mass from male puberty if they went through it. Bone mass does eventually drop to female levels but over decades not years so athletes would likely be out of athletic prime before that happens. Studies showing more dramatic results that stand out in my memory that lean toward transwomen outperforming transwomen are studies done on military veterans comparing to general population metrics of muscle mass for athletic activity levels also done with a very low population count I believe they only looked at under 300 trans women. Regardless we need more research, but there are a comically small amount of trans athletes seeking professional level sports, like I think <20 for all college level for instance. Anecdotally, I found as a deskjob, pilates and casual weight lifting trans woman, I lost dramatic amount of strength and muscle mass. 20 pounds now feels like 50 pounds did for myself pre-transition. I usually participate with women and the instructor/personal helps with modifications usually aimed at women just getting into fitness. Running joke amongst friends is how easily I am outperformed by my female friends at the gym/pilates/etc. However, that's since my body is low testosterone even for females, its checked twice a year because of it, normally It's once a year for most trans people. Other friends retained a lot of their strength, but are mechanics, so its really situational in my opinion, and its a super hard and interesting topic of research because of it
everdrive 7mo ago
Certainly some of the high profile cases have been fairly absurd. A mid-tier male athletic transitions, and then blows the female record out of the water and gets gold. What I don't know is whether there are wider stats rather than some really big notable cases. It wouldn't surprise me, I just don't have the facts at the moment.
- brendoelfrendo 7mo ago
  > A mid-tier male athletic transitions, and then blows the female record out of the water and gets gold. Do you have an example of this happening?
  - mvdtnz 7mo ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hubbard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hubbard This power lifter set regional junior records as a young man then quit the sport and didn't compete for 16 years. After transitioning she went on to win gold medals in numerous international competitions as a woman.
  - lelanthran 7mo ago
    Lia Thomas. Why are all these innocent questioners asking for more evidence not familiar with the existence of the evidence they are asking for? Considering they feel so strongly about it, they should already have seen all this.
    - appreciatorBus 7mo ago
      [flagged]
    - lux-lux-lux 7mo ago
      Pre-transition Lia Thomas wasn’t mid-tier, but I suspect you already knew that
      - braingravy 7mo ago
bluescrn 7mo ago
There is no standard 'trans athlete'. Every case is different. Transition is a process. Potentially a long one without a clear point of completion. Which makes things more complicated.
Aurornis 7mo ago
> Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes? The closest controlled study we have on this topic is not in athletes but in U.S. military servicemembers and their standard fitness test: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36271916/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36271916/ This isn't a good study for professional athletes training for competition because the fitness test is not analogous to professional competition. They only need to pass with a reasonable score but most are not competing for the top position like in the Olympics The study found that > transgender females' performance showed statistically significantly better performance than cisgender females until 2 years of GAHT in run times and 4 years in sit-up scores and remained superior in push-ups at the study's 4-year endpoint. So of the 3 simple activities they tested their performance remained higher in one test (run times) until 2 years, another test (sit-ups) until 4 years, and remained higher at the end of the limited 4-year study period in the last test (push-ups). This study was widely circulated as "proof" that hormone therapy erases sex-based gains after only 2 years, but that's not even an accurate read of the study. It's also not measuring athletes who are training or trying to compete. Depending on the sport, hormone therapy cannot be expected to compensate for sex some important sex differences like physical structure. Male anatomy is simply different in ways that provide different types of leverage or angles (like Q Angle, which runners will talk about, or reach, which is important to boxers) This is a very taboo topic to discuss and honestly I'm a little nervous to even comment about it here pseudonymously. The popular culture discussion of the topic is very different than the sports science discussion of the topic, where sex differences have long been accepted to be innate and irreversible, regardless of hormone therapy.
ravenical 7mo ago
IOC's previous review suggests no: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/60/3/198 https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/60/3/198
dmitrygr 7mo ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif
- happymellon 7mo ago
  > Khelif was born female and has competed exclusively in women's events, including those overseen by the IOC.[2][4][5] She is not transgender.[6][7][8]
  - dmitrygr 7mo ago
    "confirms that she has the SRY gene" - that's the one present only on the Y chromosome https://www.lemonde.fr/en/sports/article/2026/02/05/boxer-imane-khelif-reveals-she-took-hormone-treatment-before-paris-olympics_6750171_9.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/sports/article/2026/02/05/boxer-im...
- afroboy 7mo ago
  Imane she's not a trans for god sake, she's Algerian from a Muslim family do you really think a nation 99% Muslims will let trans women be part of their national team?? jeez guys.
fourseventy 7mo ago
A quick Google search will will your screen with examples of men competing in women's sports and winning.

lelanthran 7mo ago

> Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes? Regularly. It's the competing women who are complaining, though. They feel it is unfair to compete with men.

happymellon 7mo ago
Citation? I asked because I'm curious, and Googling just gives opinion pieces and not data. [Edit] Currently -3 but no study referenced. Do people just not like the idea of providing evidence for their position? The women I've spoken to about this article cite men being the problem, whether its sexual harassment, or other sexist attitudes. Not one felt that trans participation in their sport of choice was in their top ten complaints.
- lelanthran 7mo ago
  > I asked because I'm curious, and Googling just gives opinion pieces and not data. Women complaining are voicing an opinion. Is this a good enough citation for the claim that women don't want to compete with men? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gndSDgsMnKI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gndSDgsMnKI
  - happymellon 7mo ago
    Considering I was asking whether there was evidence on trans-performance, sure it matters a little. That's fine if they don't want to compete with men, but the statements were because "it's unfair". I was curious if there had been any studies on this.
    - lelanthran 7mo ago
      > Considering I was asking whether there was evidence on trans-performance, sure it matters a little. Well, (and I hesitate to say this because of HN guidelines, but) it was in the article, which I assumed you read. It was this assumption that made me think you wanted evidence that it is women who are complaining about competing against men. FTFA > Late last year Dr. Jane Thornton, the I.O.C.’s medical and scientific director and a Canadian former Olympic rower, presented the initial findings of a review of athletes who are transgender or have differences of sexual development, known as DSD, and are competing in women’s sports. That analysis, which has not been made public, stated athletes born with male sexual markers retained physical advantages, including among those that had received treatment to reduce testosterone.
      - happymellon 7mo ago
        I don't see that anywhere in the linked Yahoo article. Does it have a link to any of the findings?
        lelanthran 7mo ago
        The linked article is to the nytimes. I dunno which article is the yahoo one. This story was on the nytimes, it's the one under discussion. > Does it have a link to any of the findings? The findings I posted where from the linked article, to the nytimes. The findings were exactly as I posted them; in brief, athletes born with male markers retain their physical advantages.
      - generj 7mo ago
        There’s probably a reason the analysis has not been made public. It’s not evidence until published because it can’t be disputed.
    - throwawaytea 7mo ago
      [flagged]
      - 7mo ago
  - greygoo222 7mo ago
    You can debate what policies are the most fair without calling trans women "men."
    - lelanthran 7mo ago
      > You can debate what policies are the most fair without calling trans women "men." You're correct - man/woman are gender identities, male/female are biological facts. The more accurate version of that statement (which, btw, is not mine, I am just repeating what the complaints are) is: "Females don't want to compete with males." Happy?
- back_to_reality 7mo ago
  Citation? Data? Let's take Paris 2024 track and field 800 m as an example, I won't do all the googling for you. In men's heats, the slowest clocked time was a hair under 1:55. In women's finals (consequently the fastest time of the competition), the winner clocked in at a bit under 1m57, whereas the men's final was won with 1:41 and change. You may look up other competitions by yourself. The reason for the lack of "citation", or "data" as you call it, is because men typically are not allowed to enter women's competitions, for that - rooted-in-reality reason I just demonstrated.
  - altruios 7mo ago
    You do understand there is a difference between a trans-woman and a man and that you are comparing incorrect data?
    - back_to_reality 7mo ago
      Please do demonstrate the difference in this context.
      - altruios 7mo ago
        Hormone expression. Muscle mass. Reaction time. Weight. A YEAR of hormone therapy. Meeting a required measured threshold of testosterone. And that's not even the controversial stuff. A man and a trans-woman are different. hell, one has (generalizing here) boobs: come on... don't be dense/obtuse! Have you tried running fast suddenly having boobs when you did not before?!?! ...one is way easier.
      - deleted 7mo ago
        [deleted]
  - AnEro 7mo ago
    Well, trans women given current regulations that allowed competition with cis women, would have had to be on hormone replacement therapy for 3-5 years depending on the sport. So the data and context does matter, because the intuitive conclusion you came to isn't touching a dataset to find the rooted-in-reality conclusion. The question is 'is a male with a female hormone balance for over X period time with in a fair difference in biological function to females.'. Which is a complex question, since so many things are at play. How much does fast twitch muscle fiber is retained? How much does that even matter for the sport in question?(ballet vs sprinting) Did they go through male puberty? Where are they working out to retain their muscle mass through their 3-5 year transition period and not losing any of their originally gained muscle? What would it look like if they intentionally lost the muscle mass and then retrained it back? I find those to be fascinating questions, the later we have little research on, currently, and it could enlighten so much more of exercise science especially for cis athletes as well.
- LunicLynx 7mo ago
  This is more about logic. For this article to be relevant a spot for the Olympics of either gender has been taken by a trans athlete. Which by conclusion means that a trans person outperformed the other gender. Taking part in the Olympics is a difficult endeavor, for which you must qualify first.
  - Dylan16807 7mo ago
    That's a misleading way to talk about "outperforming". When the US brings over 200 people to the olympics, then if cis and trans athletes have exactly the same performance and without other bias you'd expect to see 1-2 trans US olympians every year just by chance. And you'd expect them to have the same medal rates as anyone else from the US. When someone asks if there's evidence of trans athletes outperforming cis athletes, that's not what they're asking for.
  - crote 7mo ago
    Look up Elizabeth Swaney, she got to the Olympics by not falling off her skis. And I mean that quite literally: Ignoring DNFs she was dead last in all the qualifying events, but by doing a massive amount of them she somehow managed to get enough points in total to qualify. Or there's Eric Moussambani, who participated in the 100 meter freestyle swimming without ever having seen an Olympic-sized swimming pool before. Similarly with a Jamaica bobsleigh team: horribly equipment, very little experience, still at the Olympics. At the top it is indeed about being the absolute best, but at the bottom it is very much about being a competition between nations, and for some countries being the best at an obscure sport can still mean being pretty bad at it.
    - LunicLynx 7mo ago
      Exactly my point, your country is only sending you to the Olympics if you are their absolute best. The competitive part does not start at the Olympics. The Olympics are already the price.
- cbnotfromthere 7mo ago
  Do you really need a citation to understand that biological males perform better than biological females at basically any imaginable sport?
- mvdtnz 7mo ago
  [flagged]
- 113 7mo ago
  Here is a meta-analysis that says trans women don't exhibit significant differences in performance: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/60/3/198 https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/60/3/198
  - dpd_dpd 7mo ago
    Here's an in-depth critique of the claims made in that paper: https://www.voidifremoved.co.uk/p/beef-trifle https://www.voidifremoved.co.uk/p/beef-trifle
    - 113 7mo ago
      That is a blog.
      - dpd_dpd 7mo ago
        It is, yes. It is also a substantive critique pointing out methodological issues in that meta-analysis.
        113 7mo ago
        Not really!
beachWholesaleS 7mo ago
Source?
- LunicLynx 7mo ago
  A source is not required, taking part in the Olympics alone, means outperforming your countries other athletes. If that doesn’t happen there wouldn’t be a reason for the article.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
- lelanthran 7mo ago
  From the article: > Late last year Dr. Jane Thornton, the I.O.C.’s medical and scientific director and a Canadian former Olympic rower, presented the initial findings of a review of athletes who are transgender or have differences of sexual development, known as DSD, and are competing in women’s sports. That analysis, which has not been made public, stated athletes born with male sexual markers retained physical advantages, including among those that had received treatment to reduce testosterone. Let's be a little science-focused, okay?
  - generj 7mo ago
    > That analysis, which has not been made public So much for science.
  - brendoelfrendo 7mo ago
    I would be interested to see that analysis, and it's unfortunate that it is not publicly available in some fashion. I'm mainly curious about the number of DSD-expressing vs transgender athletes they reviewed. Trans athletes in the Olympics or even competing at an Olympic level are vanishingly rare.
  - ethin 7mo ago
    That very quoted section indicates the analysis has not been made public. IMO that's very fishy and makes me question the authenticity of the source. What is Dr. Thornton hiding, exactly? Why conceal the review, methodology and data? Even if preliminary it should be released.
atmavatar 7mo ago
The problem is that someone who's transitioned is no longer a man. After undergoing surgery and hormone treatment for a long period of time, a trans athlete falls somewhere between men and women in terms of capability. They'd have no more success competing against men than naturally born women would, yet they still have advantages when competing against naturally born women. Unfortunately, while the most equitable solution might be to create a separate category unique to trans individuals, there aren't enough trans athletes to make it feasible (yet?). It's rather sad that transitioning means a person can no longer compete in sports, but I'm not sure there's a better alternative.
- altruios 7mo ago
  Is there actually an advantage? that's toted. but no one can ever point to real data about it... and all the data suggests the exact opposite... that for most cases: cis-women out-compete trans-women.
  - lelanthran 7mo ago
    > but no one can ever point to real data about it... It's in the article. You may not agree with their findings, but it's there.
    - generj 7mo ago
      It’s not in the article. They list their findings but no data. They effectively are just issuing an opinion. The opinion may be more considered than the rest of ours, but it’s not data.
- asdff 7mo ago
  You still have your larger bone structure. Larger musculature structure and different muscle insertions. different ligament structure. different skin structure. different grip strength. Broader shoulders, narrower pelvis, different angled limbs. all of that isn't going away even if it atrophies. And you aren't going to let it atrophy because you are an athlete in training managing your dietary macros. Maybe recovery isn't as efficient lacking so much excess testosterone but you still have some.

somat 7mo ago

No idea on the hard data. but... We classify competitions for a reason. The competition is more interesting when the competitors are categorized into similar ability. You can't bring your formula1 to a touring car race just because you feel like it is a touring car. Personally I think at the top level there should be an unlimited class. within the rules of the sport anyone can enter, then at various lower prestige levels participation is limited according to some parameter.

dmbche 7mo ago
> No idea on the hard data Great thanks!
mbajkowski 7mo ago
One interesting example of this is the UTR system for tennis. It is agnostic in gender as wells as age, and tournaments can be held purely based on the UTR range
altruios 7mo ago
bad comparison - here is one better, not a perfect one... You can't enter a car into a boating competition. The question here is: if you take basic precautions to make it the same class of boat - a modified car turned into a boat should be a valid entry - provided the engine speed roughly matches. People worry about cars on water here, not knowing that doesn't exist by definition: any car in water has been modified from a car to be a boat. you may recognize that it was once a car - but that's vestigial shell stuff. the inter-workings are a propeller - not a wheel.
- boringg 7mo ago
  I see your argument and has some merit but isn't persuasive enough. I would posit that its a bit too loose and that it breaks down on biological people have many more complicated systems that aren't simply re-categorized similar to your car and boat comparison. For better or worse nor is our medical science sophisticated enough to swap out the systems to be true comparables (and I don't mean to offend anyone).

egypturnash 7mo ago

"born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) The usual term is "cisgender", or "cis" for short. "Cis" and "Trans" both come from Latin; the former means "the same side of" and the latter means "the other side of". If you are happy to be on the same side of the gender binary as what you were assigned when you were born then you are "cisgender"; if you are unhappy with that state of affairs (regardless of how much work you have put into changing it) then you are "transgender".

happymellon 7mo ago
Now you say it like that, I did know that. Thank you.
- egypturnash 7mo ago
  You're welcome! <3
JK-Swizzle 7mo ago
Adding to this: If you do not want to reference the current gender, you can also use "Assigned Female at Birth" (AFAB), or "Assigned Male at Birth" (AMAB). This is useful when clarifying terms, when you do not know the persons identity, or when discussing groups based on the factory default settings.
- egypturnash 7mo ago
  Yep. :)
- fourseventy 7mo ago
  A female or male is not 'assigned' anything. Just because you are confused about biological reality doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
  - thrance 7mo ago
    Just because you are confused about the distinction between gender and sex doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

dragonwriter 7mo ago

> Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes? No, both because there are very few trans athletes in competition, and because trans athletes (except trans women who have not started or are less than a year into hormone therapy) have net athletic disadvantages, when considering all factors relevant to performance in almost any real sport, compared to cisgender people of the same gender identity. I mean, if you had a sport that isolated grip strength alone, trans women would have an advantage over cis women, but aside from rather contrived cases like that, they don't. There's a reason the poster woman for the political movement around this in the US is a cisgender woman whose story of "unfair competition" is tying with a trans woman for fifth place behind four other cisgender women (and having to hold a sixth place trophy in photos, since there were not duplicates on hand for the same rank) in an intercollegiate swimming competition.

cvwright 7mo ago
You’re conveniently ignoring the Olympic boxing champion from 2024 who beat the absolute shit out of the female competitors.
- jkbbwr 7mo ago
  Are you talking about Imane Khelif? The woman who was born a woman, competed her whole life as a woman and is still last time I checked, a woman?
  - frm88 7mo ago
    A woman with an SRY gene undergoing treatment to reduce testosterone levels to typical female level. https://nypost.com/2026/02/06/sports/imane-khelif-opens-up-on-natural-male-gene-while-agreeing-to-undergo-testing-for-2028-olympics/ https://nypost.com/2026/02/06/sports/imane-khelif-opens-up-o...
frm88 7mo ago
900 medals won by transgender athletes in women's sports. https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/un-study-reveals-transgender-athletes-have-won-nearly-900-medals-in-womens-competitions-united-nations-sports-lgbt-gender-identity-title-ix-athletics https://thenationaldesk.com/news/americas-news-now/un-study-... Consider that wins in any professional competition sport carries with it sponsorships, advertising stints, apparal lines or similar. For many women athletes this is a considerable part of their lively hood - include prize money etc. in terms of notoriety that gets displaced by the current regulation.

AnEro 7mo ago

Many studies show with in ~10% female ranges of ability , but, having more fast twitch muscle fiber and bone mass from male puberty if they went through it. Bone mass does eventually drop to female levels but over decades not years so athletes would likely be out of athletic prime before that happens. Studies showing more dramatic results that stand out in my memory that lean toward transwomen outperforming transwomen are studies done on military veterans comparing to general population metrics of muscle mass for athletic activity levels also done with a very low population count I believe they only looked at under 300 trans women. Regardless we need more research, but there are a comically small amount of trans athletes seeking professional level sports, like I think <20 for all college level for instance. Anecdotally, I found as a deskjob, pilates and casual weight lifting trans woman, I lost dramatic amount of strength and muscle mass. 20 pounds now feels like 50 pounds did for myself pre-transition. I usually participate with women and the instructor/personal helps with modifications usually aimed at women just getting into fitness. Running joke amongst friends is how easily I am outperformed by my female friends at the gym/pilates/etc. However, that's since my body is low testosterone even for females, its checked twice a year because of it, normally It's once a year for most trans people. Other friends retained a lot of their strength, but are mechanics, so its really situational in my opinion, and its a super hard and interesting topic of research because of it

everdrive 7mo ago

Certainly some of the high profile cases have been fairly absurd. A mid-tier male athletic transitions, and then blows the female record out of the water and gets gold. What I don't know is whether there are wider stats rather than some really big notable cases. It wouldn't surprise me, I just don't have the facts at the moment.

brendoelfrendo 7mo ago
> A mid-tier male athletic transitions, and then blows the female record out of the water and gets gold. Do you have an example of this happening?
- mvdtnz 7mo ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hubbard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Hubbard This power lifter set regional junior records as a young man then quit the sport and didn't compete for 16 years. After transitioning she went on to win gold medals in numerous international competitions as a woman.
- lelanthran 7mo ago
  Lia Thomas. Why are all these innocent questioners asking for more evidence not familiar with the existence of the evidence they are asking for? Considering they feel so strongly about it, they should already have seen all this.
  - appreciatorBus 7mo ago
    [flagged]
  - lux-lux-lux 7mo ago
    Pre-transition Lia Thomas wasn’t mid-tier, but I suspect you already knew that
    - braingravy 7mo ago

bluescrn 7mo ago

There is no standard 'trans athlete'. Every case is different. Transition is a process. Potentially a long one without a clear point of completion. Which makes things more complicated.

Aurornis 7mo ago

> Do trans-athletes regularly out perform "born as" (not sure the best way to phrase it) athletes? The closest controlled study we have on this topic is not in athletes but in U.S. military servicemembers and their standard fitness test: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36271916/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36271916/ This isn't a good study for professional athletes training for competition because the fitness test is not analogous to professional competition. They only need to pass with a reasonable score but most are not competing for the top position like in the Olympics The study found that > transgender females' performance showed statistically significantly better performance than cisgender females until 2 years of GAHT in run times and 4 years in sit-up scores and remained superior in push-ups at the study's 4-year endpoint. So of the 3 simple activities they tested their performance remained higher in one test (run times) until 2 years, another test (sit-ups) until 4 years, and remained higher at the end of the limited 4-year study period in the last test (push-ups). This study was widely circulated as "proof" that hormone therapy erases sex-based gains after only 2 years, but that's not even an accurate read of the study. It's also not measuring athletes who are training or trying to compete. Depending on the sport, hormone therapy cannot be expected to compensate for sex some important sex differences like physical structure. Male anatomy is simply different in ways that provide different types of leverage or angles (like Q Angle, which runners will talk about, or reach, which is important to boxers) This is a very taboo topic to discuss and honestly I'm a little nervous to even comment about it here pseudonymously. The popular culture discussion of the topic is very different than the sports science discussion of the topic, where sex differences have long been accepted to be innate and irreversible, regardless of hormone therapy.

ravenical 7mo ago

IOC's previous review suggests no: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/60/3/198 https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/60/3/198

dmitrygr 7mo ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imane_Khelif

happymellon 7mo ago
> Khelif was born female and has competed exclusively in women's events, including those overseen by the IOC.[2][4][5] She is not transgender.[6][7][8]
- dmitrygr 7mo ago
  "confirms that she has the SRY gene" - that's the one present only on the Y chromosome https://www.lemonde.fr/en/sports/article/2026/02/05/boxer-imane-khelif-reveals-she-took-hormone-treatment-before-paris-olympics_6750171_9.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/sports/article/2026/02/05/boxer-im...
afroboy 7mo ago
Imane she's not a trans for god sake, she's Algerian from a Muslim family do you really think a nation 99% Muslims will let trans women be part of their national team?? jeez guys.

fourseventy 7mo ago

A quick Google search will will your screen with examples of men competing in women's sports and winning.