6 ms·

Seems like everyone, everywhere is overworked, underpaid, and under supported. How much longer can we frogs survive the boiling?

fHr 7mo ago
As long as we're desperate for a job and we need to finance our lifestyle to impress the Johnsons.
- ExtraRoulette 7mo ago
  It's not even to impress anyone, we need to keep roofs over our heads and food in our family's bellies
  - jewayne 7mo ago
    Oh, look whose family has a roof over their head and food in their bellies! We get it, @ExtraRoulette. You're big pimpin'.
    - jacquesm 7mo ago
      I think we now have the answer to your query: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46046401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46046401 But I don't think we should extrapolate from it.
  - heraldgeezer 7mo ago
    Y'all can do with a bit less of that. Overweight/obesity combined: ~73-75% (nearly 3 in 4 adults) in the US.
    - munk-a 7mo ago
      It's quite a tired take that the obesity epidemic is because Americans have too much affordable access to good food. America has affordable access to terrible food and while people can keep their bellies full on that actually eating healthily is a luxury.
      - heraldgeezer 7mo ago
        99% of people can do 48h water fast with no issues. Easy weight loss, no need for a gym or healthy food. Try it! Or don't. Feels good to mog people by just being normal weight.
      - nxm 7mo ago
        People who can afford crappy fast food can afford chicken breast and rice with veggies store bought and made at home. Just easier to kick back with a Big Mac and fries after work. Personal responsibility is key
        taurath 7mo ago
        “Made at home” means time. I cook 3 meals a day in my house and it’s a significant dent in other things I could be doing. The more stress I take on from work, the less effortful food I make. I have taken years in my adult life to get good enough to “throw something together” that is healthy and is something I enjoy eating and would choose over a burger. I still eat a lot of burgers. Personal responsibility sure but that often comes with utter ignorance of the systems that people find themselves in, especially poverty and mental health. The bottom 50% own nothing, have no security, and everything that makes their lives a little easier are things they’ll consider.
        phil21 7mo ago
        Great. So stop saying it's cheaper. It's more convenient, sure. Takes effort, yep. I was obese most of my adult life. It absolutely cost me more to eat cheap (as in nutrition) shitty fast foods than prepare things from base ingredients. It was more convenient and it was the easy path for sure, but absolutely in no way a means to save money. It costs vastly more. I could only afford to get fat once I started making money. Growing up we were too poor to eat that horribly.
        taurath 7mo ago
        Your story is your story and nobody can say it isn't, but it reads strange to me to comment about cost when the crux of my statement was about the relative time and effort to cook rather than cost. But since you'd like to speak about price it seems, I'd posit that for a good long while there, dollar menu items were genuinely about as cheap as you could get for food - $4 on the way home from work and get an hour of time back to unwind? It was worth it to me - heck, a lot of the time I used that time to be in the gym. I'll grant you that pretty much any restaurant you'd sit down in where you don't pay at the counter is utterly more expensive - 3x the ingredient cost at least. But we're not comparing steaks and chicken entrees here, we're comparing rice & beans and chicken breast vs a McDouble or $5 footlong. Weeknight roasts that you have to plan ahead for, Sunday meal prep days. Its all time - I recognize this because I choose to take that time on, and its time that I don't get to spend on other stuff.
- jmcgough 7mo ago
  I thought it was the avocado toast that was keeping us from owning a house.
shdudns 7mo ago
[flagged]
ModernMech 7mo ago
The point of the frogs boiling metaphor is the frogs in fact do not survive.
- gambiting 7mo ago
  In reality when these experiments were conducted the frog simply jumped out as soon as the temperature started to raise, frogs will not sit there in slowly boiling water and just die without trying to escape way before the water becomes dangerous.
  - ModernMech 7mo ago
    We need to combine the crabs in the bucket with the frogs in the water and I think we'll have the right metaphor.
    - aziaziazi 7mo ago
      Sadly most of us are hopeless lobster boiled by greater powers. Unlike the crabs through you still can save the other lobsters by refraining to eat them.
  - adampunk 7mo ago
    Well, it works with humans just fine.
    - Supermancho 7mo ago
      Except for when it doesn't. It's not clear to me as to what you are trying to say.
      - adampunk 7mo ago
        None of us are jumping out of the pot. We will boil happily. An argument to the contrary needs to look outside.
  - deleted 7mo ago
jacquesm 7mo ago
That's true, but there are not that many jobs that have so many lives on the line as ATC.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
wilg 7mo ago
Not at all, the ATC situation is different. It doesn't help to try to jam a general (and wrong!) societal comment here, just diffuses responsibility.
EGreg 7mo ago
It's simple... AI and automation will be gradually replacing everyone's job. The reason people are overworked is because they can't afford to lose their job. I wrote this 12 years ago and it's even more true today: https://magarshak.com/blog/stop-wasting-our-time/ https://magarshak.com/blog/stop-wasting-our-time/
nine_zeros 7mo ago
[dead]
Sabu87 7mo ago
True, few people managing lots of airplanes at the same time...
rstuart4133 7mo ago
> Seems like everyone, everywhere is overworked, underpaid, and under supported. How much longer can we frogs survive the boiling? I'm Australian. In Australia, if you are forced to work overtime the rate of pay goes up, by 50% or if it's extreme, double. As a consequence "underpaid" isn't a common complaint of people working lots of overtime. This has some negative consequences of course. If labour is plentiful you can have lots of people on hand and pay them on an hours-worked basis. The same deal applies - if you go beyond 40 hours a week their rate of pay goes up, but that shouldn't happen if labour is plentiful and management is on the ball. But if, as in this case labour isn't plentiful, then they are going to have to fix it some other way - like paying to train more staff. What the employers can't do is offload the problem entirely onto their employees, so there are forces compelling them to get their act together. The OP makes it sound like the dynamic is very different in the US.
- markdown 7mo ago
  Things are quite DOGEy in the US.
- Computer0 7mo ago
  Workers in these jobs in the US have less protections than the private sector as they are deemed imperative to operating the country. As such it is illegal for them to strike for better wages, but they do receive 1.5x wages during their mandatory overtime work, and have a base wage over twice that of the annual median income, before their significant overtime income. I think the burn out is a bigger cause.
- jacquesm 7mo ago
  I've met truck drivers in the US that were driving 16 hours per day. I'm not sure if it is legal or not but it certainly wasn't considered exceptional. It's insane the kind of pressure some jobs put you under. Now ATC has obviously more potential for misery than a truck driver, still a passenger bus / truck collision isn't a small thing either.
  - rabidonrails 7mo ago
parasubvert 7mo ago
Lots of people are overpaid and underworked too. Or in bullshit jobs, or both.
dangus 7mo ago
I don’t think this statement is helpful because it effectively downplays the government mismanagement and industry-specific plight of ATC workers by expanding and generalizing the problem. It’s analogous to this hypothetical conversation: “XYZ Politician is a corrupt official who needs to be investigated” “Well actually, corruption is everywhere.” See how that downplays and changes the subject at hand? Not everyone is overworked and underpaid like ATC workers. The US government needs to implement real reforms to rectify that situation.
Gud 7mo ago
Uhm, not everyone. There is a lot of people who live on passive capital income. They contribute absolutely nothing yet they control the economy.
wartywhoa23 7mo ago
Well, some critical mass of frogs must recognize and accept the fact we've been boiled, and then go after the cooks. Instead, you find that this critcal mass is happy being boiled with their eyes wide shut.
tdeck 7mo ago
They tried. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Professional_Air_Traffic_...

fHr 7mo ago

As long as we're desperate for a job and we need to finance our lifestyle to impress the Johnsons.

ExtraRoulette 7mo ago
It's not even to impress anyone, we need to keep roofs over our heads and food in our family's bellies
- jewayne 7mo ago
  Oh, look whose family has a roof over their head and food in their bellies! We get it, @ExtraRoulette. You're big pimpin'.
  - jacquesm 7mo ago
    I think we now have the answer to your query: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46046401 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46046401 But I don't think we should extrapolate from it.
- heraldgeezer 7mo ago
  Y'all can do with a bit less of that. Overweight/obesity combined: ~73-75% (nearly 3 in 4 adults) in the US.
  - munk-a 7mo ago
    It's quite a tired take that the obesity epidemic is because Americans have too much affordable access to good food. America has affordable access to terrible food and while people can keep their bellies full on that actually eating healthily is a luxury.
    - heraldgeezer 7mo ago
      99% of people can do 48h water fast with no issues. Easy weight loss, no need for a gym or healthy food. Try it! Or don't. Feels good to mog people by just being normal weight.
    - nxm 7mo ago
      People who can afford crappy fast food can afford chicken breast and rice with veggies store bought and made at home. Just easier to kick back with a Big Mac and fries after work. Personal responsibility is key
      - taurath 7mo ago
        “Made at home” means time. I cook 3 meals a day in my house and it’s a significant dent in other things I could be doing. The more stress I take on from work, the less effortful food I make. I have taken years in my adult life to get good enough to “throw something together” that is healthy and is something I enjoy eating and would choose over a burger. I still eat a lot of burgers. Personal responsibility sure but that often comes with utter ignorance of the systems that people find themselves in, especially poverty and mental health. The bottom 50% own nothing, have no security, and everything that makes their lives a little easier are things they’ll consider.
        phil21 7mo ago
        Great. So stop saying it's cheaper. It's more convenient, sure. Takes effort, yep. I was obese most of my adult life. It absolutely cost me more to eat cheap (as in nutrition) shitty fast foods than prepare things from base ingredients. It was more convenient and it was the easy path for sure, but absolutely in no way a means to save money. It costs vastly more. I could only afford to get fat once I started making money. Growing up we were too poor to eat that horribly.
        taurath 7mo ago
        Your story is your story and nobody can say it isn't, but it reads strange to me to comment about cost when the crux of my statement was about the relative time and effort to cook rather than cost. But since you'd like to speak about price it seems, I'd posit that for a good long while there, dollar menu items were genuinely about as cheap as you could get for food - $4 on the way home from work and get an hour of time back to unwind? It was worth it to me - heck, a lot of the time I used that time to be in the gym. I'll grant you that pretty much any restaurant you'd sit down in where you don't pay at the counter is utterly more expensive - 3x the ingredient cost at least. But we're not comparing steaks and chicken entrees here, we're comparing rice & beans and chicken breast vs a McDouble or $5 footlong. Weeknight roasts that you have to plan ahead for, Sunday meal prep days. Its all time - I recognize this because I choose to take that time on, and its time that I don't get to spend on other stuff.
jmcgough 7mo ago
I thought it was the avocado toast that was keeping us from owning a house.

shdudns 7mo ago

[flagged]

ModernMech 7mo ago

The point of the frogs boiling metaphor is the frogs in fact do not survive.

gambiting 7mo ago
In reality when these experiments were conducted the frog simply jumped out as soon as the temperature started to raise, frogs will not sit there in slowly boiling water and just die without trying to escape way before the water becomes dangerous.
- ModernMech 7mo ago
  We need to combine the crabs in the bucket with the frogs in the water and I think we'll have the right metaphor.
  - aziaziazi 7mo ago
    Sadly most of us are hopeless lobster boiled by greater powers. Unlike the crabs through you still can save the other lobsters by refraining to eat them.
- adampunk 7mo ago
  Well, it works with humans just fine.
  - Supermancho 7mo ago
    Except for when it doesn't. It's not clear to me as to what you are trying to say.
    - adampunk 7mo ago
      None of us are jumping out of the pot. We will boil happily. An argument to the contrary needs to look outside.
- deleted 7mo ago

jacquesm 7mo ago

That's true, but there are not that many jobs that have so many lives on the line as ATC.

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

wilg 7mo ago

Not at all, the ATC situation is different. It doesn't help to try to jam a general (and wrong!) societal comment here, just diffuses responsibility.

EGreg 7mo ago

It's simple... AI and automation will be gradually replacing everyone's job. The reason people are overworked is because they can't afford to lose their job. I wrote this 12 years ago and it's even more true today: https://magarshak.com/blog/stop-wasting-our-time/ https://magarshak.com/blog/stop-wasting-our-time/

nine_zeros 7mo ago

[dead]

Sabu87 7mo ago

True, few people managing lots of airplanes at the same time...

rstuart4133 7mo ago

> Seems like everyone, everywhere is overworked, underpaid, and under supported. How much longer can we frogs survive the boiling? I'm Australian. In Australia, if you are forced to work overtime the rate of pay goes up, by 50% or if it's extreme, double. As a consequence "underpaid" isn't a common complaint of people working lots of overtime. This has some negative consequences of course. If labour is plentiful you can have lots of people on hand and pay them on an hours-worked basis. The same deal applies - if you go beyond 40 hours a week their rate of pay goes up, but that shouldn't happen if labour is plentiful and management is on the ball. But if, as in this case labour isn't plentiful, then they are going to have to fix it some other way - like paying to train more staff. What the employers can't do is offload the problem entirely onto their employees, so there are forces compelling them to get their act together. The OP makes it sound like the dynamic is very different in the US.

markdown 7mo ago
Things are quite DOGEy in the US.
Computer0 7mo ago
Workers in these jobs in the US have less protections than the private sector as they are deemed imperative to operating the country. As such it is illegal for them to strike for better wages, but they do receive 1.5x wages during their mandatory overtime work, and have a base wage over twice that of the annual median income, before their significant overtime income. I think the burn out is a bigger cause.
jacquesm 7mo ago
I've met truck drivers in the US that were driving 16 hours per day. I'm not sure if it is legal or not but it certainly wasn't considered exceptional. It's insane the kind of pressure some jobs put you under. Now ATC has obviously more potential for misery than a truck driver, still a passenger bus / truck collision isn't a small thing either.
- rabidonrails 7mo ago

parasubvert 7mo ago

Lots of people are overpaid and underworked too. Or in bullshit jobs, or both.

dangus 7mo ago

I don’t think this statement is helpful because it effectively downplays the government mismanagement and industry-specific plight of ATC workers by expanding and generalizing the problem. It’s analogous to this hypothetical conversation: “XYZ Politician is a corrupt official who needs to be investigated” “Well actually, corruption is everywhere.” See how that downplays and changes the subject at hand? Not everyone is overworked and underpaid like ATC workers. The US government needs to implement real reforms to rectify that situation.

Gud 7mo ago

Uhm, not everyone. There is a lot of people who live on passive capital income. They contribute absolutely nothing yet they control the economy.

wartywhoa23 7mo ago

Well, some critical mass of frogs must recognize and accept the fact we've been boiled, and then go after the cooks. Instead, you find that this critcal mass is happy being boiled with their eyes wide shut.

tdeck 7mo ago

They tried. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Professional_Air_Traffic_Controllers_Organization_strike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Professional_Air_Traffic_...