4 ms·

Light on Glass: Why do you start making a game engine?

54 points by atan2 7mo ago

ramesh31 7mo ago
You can't accomplish this with a shader?
- wallstop 7mo ago
  From my experience with game engines and people that really care about CRTs - I believe the effect (confidence: 95%) can be entirely achieved with rendering glue in any of the modern game engines - Unreal, Unity, Godot, etc. Now, whether or not it is a literal shader, or a shader + custom sauce, not sure. However, I have not tried, so I cannot verify that claim to 100% accuracy. The author ...might have tried? They definitely surveyed the landscape. My read of the article was that they went down this rabbit hole and back-justified it instead of investing a similar amount of time in a practical solution in a modern engine. CRT look and feel is a niche full of very passionate and opinionated people.
  - user68858788 7mo ago
    Do you have an example? I’ve done a slightly-more-than-casual search for convincing post-processing and haven’t found success. Filters still tend to retain the sharpness of pixel edges in a way that CRTs don’t, and the contrast doesn’t look right either.
    - wallstop 7mo ago
      I'm not saying the tech currently exists in a form you can just plop into a project and have it give you the exact CRT look and feel that you want. What I am saying is that you can do that within any modern game engine - you just have to decide what, exactly, the look and feel you want is and how to get there. As an example, I will quote the article: > Retro Game Engine owns the full frame lifecycle. I decide what the input signals are, what the display does with it, how time affects it, what gets presented and when. You can replace "Retro Game Engine" in that sentence with "Unity" or "Godot" and it is just as true.
    - jpadkins 7mo ago
      Balatro is a good example. Lots of different opinions on whether its a good CRT effect or not.
    - fluoridation 7mo ago
      Still the best CRT simulation I've seen is in an X screensaver called XAnalogTV. It simulates both CRT artifacts as well as NTSC channel cross-talk and analog interference. It amazes me that still no one has produced a portable version.
    - imtringued 6mo ago
      I think you are underestimating what a filter is allowed to do. You could build a simulation of the universe, send the frame data to the CRT inside that universe and capture the output of the simulated CRT and show it on the LCD.
  - danwilsonthomas 7mo ago
    I've done a version of this in Godot. It's kind of a hack, but it works and it's all Nodes without needing a script. You could do it more easily in a compositor effect but you have to deal more with the guts of the engine. The basic idea was to use a chain of Viewports and TextureRects using the previous ViewportTexture to do the effect. This is essentially just setting up a chain of framebuffers that I can draw on top of at each step. The first step just does a simple calculation to convert the incoming color to an "energy" value with a simple shader on the whole frame. Then there are two decay viewports that feed each other to decay the old frame and overlay the new one. These just have a decay parameter that I can tweak to get different effects. There's a final Viewport that supersamples everything because I'm going for more of a vector display look than a CRT. And I can layer on other effects at either the energy state (like decaying phoshpor) or at the final stage (like flicker or screen curve). Here I've exaggerated the decay quite a bit so you can see the effect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZrvcZIfqOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZrvcZIfqOI The trails there are entirely from this effect. I'm only rendering the spinning figure. You can also see where lines overlap they are brighter than the surrounding lines because I cap the maximum energy value in the first layer.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
PowerElectronix 7mo ago
My advice to anyone even minimally interested in retro games or just clear motion in the image is to get a cheap crt monitor and play a bit with it. You'll surely will appreciate that even against today monitors they hold their ground very well (not in brightness, though) and easily surpass them in motion clarity. We did lose quite a lot when we trasitioned to lcd screens.
- freedomben 7mo ago
  Very interesting. I grew up with CRTs and didn't even use an LCD screen until in my 20s. It felt magical. Then LED screens (especially the black of OLED) felt even more magical. I've never considered that CRTs might have been superior for some things. I do remember playing some NES games on emulators on LED screens and thinking the weather effects and such looked pretty bad compared to the CRT experience I remembered, but hadn't gone much deeper than that. I'll have to try and find a CRT and do some tests
  - Insanity 7mo ago
    I started out gaming on CRTs in the late 90s. Moved to LCD in the mid-2000s and haven't looked back. I don't miss CRTs, not least the bulkiness of them lol.
    - freedomben 7mo ago
      For real haha. I remember helping my dad move his old big screen TV out of his house when he replaced it with a "flat screen" and holy hell, it beat the hell out of 4 of us and we only had to take it 100 feet. The bulk was something I'm the young will never be able to appreciate :-D
- nkrisc 7mo ago
  I distinctly remember gaming on CRTs and then LCD screens and it was night and day difference, in favor of LCD. Monitors have only gotten better and I certainly don’t miss CRTs, least of all how hot they were.
fluoridation 7mo ago
...What? >But a CRT isn’t a camera filming the world. Its a physical device that generates an image as an output of physical process. [...] That’s not a post-process overlay or filter effect, its an entirely different mental model of what it means to draw or render an image. I think this is why I struggled when trying to bolt this onto a modern engine. The foundations between the two models is just so fundamentally different. At this point, I was already beginning to consider my options. I was half inclined to give up. An LCD or an OLED are also not cameras. I honestly don't understand what insight this person believes they've stumbled upon. This is also very mystifying: >The frame is never a single instant, its a culmination of integrations over time. Strictly speaking, a CRT doesn't understand frames. It just fires whatever intensity of electrons is indicated by an analog signal at any given time as the magnets steer the beam across the screen in whatever pattern has been designed into them. If the tube is controlled by a digital source, there will likely be some kind of framebuffer of some size somewhere on the pipeline that stores at least a full scanline, and nowadays invariably a complete frame, so a DAC can convert the values in it to the analog signal expected by the gun. The entire article supposedly addresses the "why", but after getting to the end, I still don't understand the why. What's wrong with Unity or Unreal architecturally that this guy's engine addresses?
- nazgulsenpai 7mo ago
  From my understand after reading, he's suggesting that Unreal and Unity's post processing are just applying effects to a camera/rendered frame, when what he wanted to do is simulate the CRT itself across the renderer to the frame that hits the swapchain.
  - fluoridation 7mo ago
    But that's nonsensical. The CRT doesn't see the graphics pipeline of, say, an SNES, it just sees an analog signal. The graphics processing is done in the digital realm, not in the analog realm. If you want to simulate a CRT, all you need is a physical model and a digital image to display, which can come from Unreal, Unity, or whatever any other engine or program or whatever. It makes literally zero sense to write an entire engine to implement a CRT simulation.
user68858788 7mo ago
Interesting article. I hope their engine gets to the point where it actually looks like CRT instead of the blocky filters we see nowadays. Here’s an entertaining video showing the difference in retro games on crt and lcd screens. It’s pretty incredible if you aren’t aware. Games back then were designed on CRTs and can look awful on LCDs in comparison. https://youtu.be/bC-8y2R6IxI?t=166&si=D6K2v28RIR4bACQ3 https://youtu.be/bC-8y2R6IxI?t=166&si=D6K2v28RIR4bACQ3
aappleby 6mo ago
I get the overwhelming feeling that the author was convinced by an AI that he had a good idea without ever contacting an actual graphics programmer. "Retro Game Engine owns the full frame lifecycle." - This is completely meaningless. Your engine controls whatever data is in the buffer that's sent to scanout, but the operating system and the GPU drivers and the scanout hardware in the GPU and the input processing and row/column drivers in the display control everything else. The only actual screenshots this guy has are some "multiply the image with the subpixel mask" demos that.... don't look anything like a real CRT, and certainly nowhere near modern CRT shaders like CRT Royale. The rest of the posts in the substack page are similarly devoid of actual content, but very heavy on the AI woo-woo this-is-important-and-deep stylings that I've come to find nauseating. Hey Author, if you can see this - You're clearly a smart guy, but you need a basic grounding in 3D rendering if you're gonna do weird stuff - more than an AI can give you. In particular, the phrase "Light is linear" will be useful to you. Good luck.

54 points by atan2 7mo ago

ramesh31 7mo ago

You can't accomplish this with a shader?

wallstop 7mo ago
From my experience with game engines and people that really care about CRTs - I believe the effect (confidence: 95%) can be entirely achieved with rendering glue in any of the modern game engines - Unreal, Unity, Godot, etc. Now, whether or not it is a literal shader, or a shader + custom sauce, not sure. However, I have not tried, so I cannot verify that claim to 100% accuracy. The author ...might have tried? They definitely surveyed the landscape. My read of the article was that they went down this rabbit hole and back-justified it instead of investing a similar amount of time in a practical solution in a modern engine. CRT look and feel is a niche full of very passionate and opinionated people.
- user68858788 7mo ago
  Do you have an example? I’ve done a slightly-more-than-casual search for convincing post-processing and haven’t found success. Filters still tend to retain the sharpness of pixel edges in a way that CRTs don’t, and the contrast doesn’t look right either.
  - wallstop 7mo ago
    I'm not saying the tech currently exists in a form you can just plop into a project and have it give you the exact CRT look and feel that you want. What I am saying is that you can do that within any modern game engine - you just have to decide what, exactly, the look and feel you want is and how to get there. As an example, I will quote the article: > Retro Game Engine owns the full frame lifecycle. I decide what the input signals are, what the display does with it, how time affects it, what gets presented and when. You can replace "Retro Game Engine" in that sentence with "Unity" or "Godot" and it is just as true.
  - jpadkins 7mo ago
    Balatro is a good example. Lots of different opinions on whether its a good CRT effect or not.
  - fluoridation 7mo ago
    Still the best CRT simulation I've seen is in an X screensaver called XAnalogTV. It simulates both CRT artifacts as well as NTSC channel cross-talk and analog interference. It amazes me that still no one has produced a portable version.
  - imtringued 6mo ago
    I think you are underestimating what a filter is allowed to do. You could build a simulation of the universe, send the frame data to the CRT inside that universe and capture the output of the simulated CRT and show it on the LCD.
- danwilsonthomas 7mo ago
  I've done a version of this in Godot. It's kind of a hack, but it works and it's all Nodes without needing a script. You could do it more easily in a compositor effect but you have to deal more with the guts of the engine. The basic idea was to use a chain of Viewports and TextureRects using the previous ViewportTexture to do the effect. This is essentially just setting up a chain of framebuffers that I can draw on top of at each step. The first step just does a simple calculation to convert the incoming color to an "energy" value with a simple shader on the whole frame. Then there are two decay viewports that feed each other to decay the old frame and overlay the new one. These just have a decay parameter that I can tweak to get different effects. There's a final Viewport that supersamples everything because I'm going for more of a vector display look than a CRT. And I can layer on other effects at either the energy state (like decaying phoshpor) or at the final stage (like flicker or screen curve). Here I've exaggerated the decay quite a bit so you can see the effect. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZrvcZIfqOI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZrvcZIfqOI The trails there are entirely from this effect. I'm only rendering the spinning figure. You can also see where lines overlap they are brighter than the surrounding lines because I cap the maximum energy value in the first layer.

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

PowerElectronix 7mo ago

My advice to anyone even minimally interested in retro games or just clear motion in the image is to get a cheap crt monitor and play a bit with it. You'll surely will appreciate that even against today monitors they hold their ground very well (not in brightness, though) and easily surpass them in motion clarity. We did lose quite a lot when we trasitioned to lcd screens.

freedomben 7mo ago
Very interesting. I grew up with CRTs and didn't even use an LCD screen until in my 20s. It felt magical. Then LED screens (especially the black of OLED) felt even more magical. I've never considered that CRTs might have been superior for some things. I do remember playing some NES games on emulators on LED screens and thinking the weather effects and such looked pretty bad compared to the CRT experience I remembered, but hadn't gone much deeper than that. I'll have to try and find a CRT and do some tests
- Insanity 7mo ago
  I started out gaming on CRTs in the late 90s. Moved to LCD in the mid-2000s and haven't looked back. I don't miss CRTs, not least the bulkiness of them lol.
  - freedomben 7mo ago
    For real haha. I remember helping my dad move his old big screen TV out of his house when he replaced it with a "flat screen" and holy hell, it beat the hell out of 4 of us and we only had to take it 100 feet. The bulk was something I'm the young will never be able to appreciate :-D
nkrisc 7mo ago
I distinctly remember gaming on CRTs and then LCD screens and it was night and day difference, in favor of LCD. Monitors have only gotten better and I certainly don’t miss CRTs, least of all how hot they were.

fluoridation 7mo ago

...What? >But a CRT isn’t a camera filming the world. Its a physical device that generates an image as an output of physical process. [...] That’s not a post-process overlay or filter effect, its an entirely different mental model of what it means to draw or render an image. I think this is why I struggled when trying to bolt this onto a modern engine. The foundations between the two models is just so fundamentally different. At this point, I was already beginning to consider my options. I was half inclined to give up. An LCD or an OLED are also not cameras. I honestly don't understand what insight this person believes they've stumbled upon. This is also very mystifying: >The frame is never a single instant, its a culmination of integrations over time. Strictly speaking, a CRT doesn't understand frames. It just fires whatever intensity of electrons is indicated by an analog signal at any given time as the magnets steer the beam across the screen in whatever pattern has been designed into them. If the tube is controlled by a digital source, there will likely be some kind of framebuffer of some size somewhere on the pipeline that stores at least a full scanline, and nowadays invariably a complete frame, so a DAC can convert the values in it to the analog signal expected by the gun. The entire article supposedly addresses the "why", but after getting to the end, I still don't understand the why. What's wrong with Unity or Unreal architecturally that this guy's engine addresses?

nazgulsenpai 7mo ago
From my understand after reading, he's suggesting that Unreal and Unity's post processing are just applying effects to a camera/rendered frame, when what he wanted to do is simulate the CRT itself across the renderer to the frame that hits the swapchain.
- fluoridation 7mo ago
  But that's nonsensical. The CRT doesn't see the graphics pipeline of, say, an SNES, it just sees an analog signal. The graphics processing is done in the digital realm, not in the analog realm. If you want to simulate a CRT, all you need is a physical model and a digital image to display, which can come from Unreal, Unity, or whatever any other engine or program or whatever. It makes literally zero sense to write an entire engine to implement a CRT simulation.

user68858788 7mo ago

Interesting article. I hope their engine gets to the point where it actually looks like CRT instead of the blocky filters we see nowadays. Here’s an entertaining video showing the difference in retro games on crt and lcd screens. It’s pretty incredible if you aren’t aware. Games back then were designed on CRTs and can look awful on LCDs in comparison. https://youtu.be/bC-8y2R6IxI?t=166&si=D6K2v28RIR4bACQ3 https://youtu.be/bC-8y2R6IxI?t=166&si=D6K2v28RIR4bACQ3

aappleby 6mo ago

I get the overwhelming feeling that the author was convinced by an AI that he had a good idea without ever contacting an actual graphics programmer. "Retro Game Engine owns the full frame lifecycle." - This is completely meaningless. Your engine controls whatever data is in the buffer that's sent to scanout, but the operating system and the GPU drivers and the scanout hardware in the GPU and the input processing and row/column drivers in the display control everything else. The only actual screenshots this guy has are some "multiply the image with the subpixel mask" demos that.... don't look anything like a real CRT, and certainly nowhere near modern CRT shaders like CRT Royale. The rest of the posts in the substack page are similarly devoid of actual content, but very heavy on the AI woo-woo this-is-important-and-deep stylings that I've come to find nauseating. Hey Author, if you can see this - You're clearly a smart guy, but you need a basic grounding in 3D rendering if you're gonna do weird stuff - more than an AI can give you. In particular, the phrase "Light is linear" will be useful to you. Good luck.