3 ms·

There's a simple differential equation often taught in intro calc courses, "Newton's Law of Cooling/Heating," which basically says that the rate of heat loss is

by amha 7mo ago

There's a simple differential equation often taught in intro calc courses, "Newton's Law of Cooling/Heating," which basically says that the rate of heat loss is proportional to the difference in temperature between a substance and its environment. I'm curious what that'd look like here. It's a very simple model, of course, not taking into account all the variables that Dynomight points out, but if a simple model can be nearly as predictive as more complex models... I'm also curious to see the details of the models that Dynomight's LLMs produced!

3eb7988a1663 7mo ago
The appendix lists the equations transcribed from the raw answers. LLM T(t) Cost Kimi K2.5 (reasoning) 20 + 52.9 exp(-t/3600)+ 27.1 exp(-t/80) $0.01 Gemini 3.1 Pro 20 + 53 exp(-t/2500) + 27 exp(-t/149.25) $0.09 GPT 5.4 20 + 54.6 exp(-t/2920) + 25.4 exp(-t/68.1) $0.11 Claude 4.6 Opus (reasoning) 20 + 55 exp(-t/1700) + 25 exp(-t/43) $0.61 (eeek) Qwen3-235B 20 + 53.17 exp(-t/1414.43) $0.009 GLM-4.7 (reasoning) 20 + 53.2 exp(-t/2500) $0.03
- kurthr 7mo ago
  It looks like a lot of them are missing something big. I'd think the two big ones are the evaporative cooling as you pour into the cup, and heating up the cup (by convection) itself. The convective cooling to the air is tertiary, but important (and conduction of the mug to the table probably isn't completely negligible). If there's only one exponential, they're definitely doing something wrong. I'd like to see a sensitivity study to see how much those terms would need to be changed to match within a few %. Exponentials are really tweaky!
  - andai 7mo ago
    Is that what that first drop is? The cold cup stealing heat from the coffee?
    - kadoban 7mo ago
      It's a mix of course, but I think it should be mainly that and evaporative cooling. Evap is _very_ effective but will fall off rapidly as you get away from boiling. The conduction into the mug will depend a lot on the mug material but will slow down a lot as the mug approaches the water temperature. I'd be very interested in seeing separate graphs for each major component and how they add up to the total. Even asking the LLMs to separate it out might improve some of their results, would be interesting to try that too.
    - kurthr 6mo ago
      Yes, since they didn't explicitly list the evaporative cooling when the coffee was poured into the cup, I suspect it was not included (as if the coffee started in the cup). That means that the starting temperature is off and screws up all the other calculations. The evaporative cooling as you pour into the cup is when the coffee is at the highest temperature and has the most surface area even though it only takes a few seconds. One could test this either by including it explicitly in the requested calculation, or by putting the fill spout directly at the bottom of the cup when filling.
amelius 7mo ago
That model doesn't explain the relatively sharp drop in the beginning.
- coder68 7mo ago
  It does? There is a fast drop followed by a long decay, exponential in fact. The cooling rate is proportional to the temperature difference, so the drop is sharpest at the very beginning when the object is hottest.
  - amelius 7mo ago
    I mean that initial drop doesn't look like it is part of the same exponential decay.
- bryan0 7mo ago
  Are you sure? I believe Newtown's law of cooling says the temperature will drop sharply at the beginning: dT/dt = -k(T_0 - T_room) so T(t) = T_room + (T_0 - T_room) exp(-kt) exp(-x) has a fast drop off then levels off.
  - amelius 7mo ago
    https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/time-constant.html https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/time-constant.html scroll down, these graphs just don't look similar.
  - cyberax 7mo ago
    Ha. My university professor used this in a lab to catch people who slack off. There is another factor here: convection. Its speed depends on the viscosity of the fluid and the temperature difference both. And viscosity itself depends on the temperature, so you get this very sharp dropoff.
- lacunary 7mo ago
  probably dominated by the cup as the ambient temperature initially and then as air/the counter top as the ambient temperature on the longer time scale, once the cup and the liquid near equilibrium
e-khadem 6mo ago
That will be the dominating term eventually. But the initial sharp temperature drop is mostly due to the coffee mug being at room temperature and having a ~significant mass.

by amha 7mo ago

3eb7988a1663 7mo ago

The appendix lists the equations transcribed from the raw answers. LLM T(t) Cost Kimi K2.5 (reasoning) 20 + 52.9 exp(-t/3600)+ 27.1 exp(-t/80) $0.01 Gemini 3.1 Pro 20 + 53 exp(-t/2500) + 27 exp(-t/149.25) $0.09 GPT 5.4 20 + 54.6 exp(-t/2920) + 25.4 exp(-t/68.1) $0.11 Claude 4.6 Opus (reasoning) 20 + 55 exp(-t/1700) + 25 exp(-t/43) $0.61 (eeek) Qwen3-235B 20 + 53.17 exp(-t/1414.43) $0.009 GLM-4.7 (reasoning) 20 + 53.2 exp(-t/2500) $0.03

kurthr 7mo ago
It looks like a lot of them are missing something big. I'd think the two big ones are the evaporative cooling as you pour into the cup, and heating up the cup (by convection) itself. The convective cooling to the air is tertiary, but important (and conduction of the mug to the table probably isn't completely negligible). If there's only one exponential, they're definitely doing something wrong. I'd like to see a sensitivity study to see how much those terms would need to be changed to match within a few %. Exponentials are really tweaky!
- andai 7mo ago
  Is that what that first drop is? The cold cup stealing heat from the coffee?
  - kadoban 7mo ago
    It's a mix of course, but I think it should be mainly that and evaporative cooling. Evap is _very_ effective but will fall off rapidly as you get away from boiling. The conduction into the mug will depend a lot on the mug material but will slow down a lot as the mug approaches the water temperature. I'd be very interested in seeing separate graphs for each major component and how they add up to the total. Even asking the LLMs to separate it out might improve some of their results, would be interesting to try that too.
  - kurthr 6mo ago
    Yes, since they didn't explicitly list the evaporative cooling when the coffee was poured into the cup, I suspect it was not included (as if the coffee started in the cup). That means that the starting temperature is off and screws up all the other calculations. The evaporative cooling as you pour into the cup is when the coffee is at the highest temperature and has the most surface area even though it only takes a few seconds. One could test this either by including it explicitly in the requested calculation, or by putting the fill spout directly at the bottom of the cup when filling.

amelius 7mo ago

That model doesn't explain the relatively sharp drop in the beginning.

coder68 7mo ago
It does? There is a fast drop followed by a long decay, exponential in fact. The cooling rate is proportional to the temperature difference, so the drop is sharpest at the very beginning when the object is hottest.
- amelius 7mo ago
  I mean that initial drop doesn't look like it is part of the same exponential decay.
bryan0 7mo ago
Are you sure? I believe Newtown's law of cooling says the temperature will drop sharply at the beginning: dT/dt = -k(T_0 - T_room) so T(t) = T_room + (T_0 - T_room) exp(-kt) exp(-x) has a fast drop off then levels off.
- amelius 7mo ago
  https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/time-constant.html https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/rc/time-constant.html scroll down, these graphs just don't look similar.
- cyberax 7mo ago
  Ha. My university professor used this in a lab to catch people who slack off. There is another factor here: convection. Its speed depends on the viscosity of the fluid and the temperature difference both. And viscosity itself depends on the temperature, so you get this very sharp dropoff.
lacunary 7mo ago
probably dominated by the cup as the ambient temperature initially and then as air/the counter top as the ambient temperature on the longer time scale, once the cup and the liquid near equilibrium

e-khadem 6mo ago

That will be the dominating term eventually. But the initial sharp temperature drop is mostly due to the coffee mug being at room temperature and having a ~significant mass.