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I'm not sure I'd put it down entirely to Osaka versus Kyoto. My impression is that these things often have at least as much to do with upbringing, formality, an
by Xixi 8mo ago
I'm not sure I'd put it down entirely to Osaka versus Kyoto. My impression is that these things often have at least as much to do with upbringing, formality, and social background as with region.
I don't know where you're from, so apologies if this is an unfair assumption, but in countries like the US or Australia people often seem less attuned to social class, whereas in places like the UK, France, and indeed Japan, those distinctions can carry more weight, even if they almost always go unspoken.
- markdown 8mo agoAgreed. Was always taught to never put elbows on the table, but as an adult I see people do it everywhere.
- GuestFAUniverse 8mo agoYeah, as if we still have loose table tops, like in medieval times.
- rglullis 8mo agoSeeing people fail to meet a standard does not mean that the standard does not exist.
- rkomorn 8mo agoWhen it comes to manners, I'd say seeing enough people fail to meet a standard means it's not a standard, at least.
- rglullis 8mo agoNo, that's argumentum ad populum. Mind you, I'm not saying that standards must be followed. I am just saying the same thing I tell my kids: - the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them - the reason rules and standards came to existence might or might not be applicable to our current context, but some people will expect you to follow them regardless. - If a rule or standard seems silly to you, make your best attempt at understanding why people would still follow it. (Chesterton's fence) - You are free to not comply to some rules, but always be ready to accept the consequences of your decisions. - What your friends are doing or not doing is not reason enough for you to change your behavior or choices.
- YeahThisIsMe 8mo agoBut the populus sets the standards. If people decide not to follow a particular one anymore, it stops being the standard.
- rglullis 8mo agoYou and I are using different meanings for standard.
- throwthrowuknow 8mo agothen it’s a custom or etiquette, not a standard
- TheOtherHobbes 8mo agoAnd the point of etiquette is to signal conformity and social status. I had a friend who came from a working class culture where social aspiration was measured by tiny nuances, like whether someone put milk in their tea before or after pouring it. Outside of that culture these nuances were irrelevant. Middle and upper class people had a completely different set of etiquette markers - as well as more or less obvious displays of wealth - which the working class aspirers were oblivious to.
- throwthrowuknow 8mo agoSo? Doesn’t make it a universal standard. Just an invented shibboleth for a group.
- thaumasiotes 8mo ago> the standards are there, wishing they didn't exist doesn't invalidate them If people act like a standard doesn't exist, then the standard actually doesn't exist, because that's the only thing that defines a standard.
- 8mo ago
- scheme271 8mo agoI think the deeper question is whose standards and why should we consider them the standard?
- rglullis 8mo agoThat's the thing with standards: there are so many of them to choose from. You don't have to follow them, but you do you should be ready to accept the consequences of your choice.
- bee_rider 8mo agoThere are lots of standards, but some contradict one-another. In the area I grew up in, caring too much about useless aesthetic stuff like “elbows on the table” would have a social cost.
- AdamN 8mo agoSome of them of course are invented whole cloth. British Received Pronunciation was invented and needs to be learned and is the standard of the upper class. It's neither right nor wrong but it's there to differentiate.
- Lio 8mo agoYou say “needs to be learned” but that’s no more so than any other accent. We just grow up with it because it’s how our parents and the parents of our friends speak. If you want to change your accent you can, of course, get elocution lessons but most Brits do not. We just have a large variety of accents of which RP is one.
- Lio 8mo agoNot sure why this is controversial. RP is just an accent like any other now. I didn’t have lessons for it and I don’t know anyone else that did. It’s just how we speak.
- deleted 8mo ago
- ghaff 8mo agoIn general, upper-classish dining probably used to be more formal in the US in terms of cutlery type and placement and other things. May still be in some circles but no one I know worries about such things and even very decent restaurants don’t. And when was the last time you saw a fish fork?
- technothrasher 8mo agoMy mother-in-law always used to get annoyed at me for using my knife and fork in the European manor instead of the American way. She said it was boorish. I don't know anybody else here in the US who cares in the least which way you use your knife and fork, so I always interpreted it left over behavior from her upper class DC upbringing in the 1930-40's. (I did try to explain to her that it was more related to my being left handed than my attempting to emulate European behavior. It didn't seem to make much difference to her.)
- masfuerte 8mo agoBy American way do you mean cutting the food then transferring the fork to your right hand for eating? Or is there some other distinction?
- bloomingeek 8mo agoJust guessing here, I'm left handed also. I don't trust myself to cut a piece of steak using the knife in my right hand. So, after cutting with my left hand, I put the knife down and use my left for forking. Or, it could be what my English son-in-law does, he uses his fork and knife, in different hands to aid in pushing food onto his fork. (He's right handed, not that it matters in this case.)
- madaxe_again 8mo agoThat and you hold them in your fists or like a pen, rather than the European manner of holding cutlery.
- 8mo ago