4 ms·
I was thinking this too, but I don't believe this is the case, and I feel like it would not be a good idea either. Most of these people are likely students; th
by hodgehog11 7mo ago
I was thinking this too, but I don't believe this is the case, and I feel like it would not be a good idea either.
Most of these people are likely students; this should be a learning moment, but I don't think it is yet grounds for their entire academic career to be crippled by being unable to publish in a top-tier ML venue.
- mikkupikku 7mo agoIf this is tolerated, it sends exactly the wrong kind of message. The students, if they are, should be banned for life. Let them serve as an example for myriads of future students, this will be a better outcome in the long run. This didn't trip for people who were merely bouncing ideas off a LLM, they caught people who copy and pasted straight from their LLM.
- linkregister 7mo agoIt's not a fully consensus view, but a majority of sociologists agree that high severity deterrence has limited effectiveness against crime. Instead, certainty of enforcement is the most salient factor.
- matkoniecz 7mo ago> Instead, certainty of enforcement is the most salient factor. hodgehog11 is proposing effectively no enforcement
- jona-f 7mo agoBut the mob wants their kick.
- crimsoneer 7mo agoYup, precisely this. Doing something bad is rarely a rational commitment and cost of benefits. Likelihood and celerity of getting caught seem to be the driving factors.
- _flux 7mo agoBut this method is now spent, as if someone is determined on keep using LLM, this should be pretty easy to overcome. I suppose though new methods could be devised, but it's not "certainty" that they will catch them.
- jacquesm 7mo agoThat's not true. People still pick up USB sticks from the street, people still fall for scam phone calls and people still click on links in mail. Just because a method was successful once does not mean it was 'burned', none of these people will be checking each and every future pdf or passing it through a cleaner before they will do the same thing all over again and others are going to be 'virgin' and won't even be warned because this is not going to be widely distributed in spite of us discussing it here. If anything you can take this as proof that this method is more or less guaranteed to work.
- noduerme 7mo agoEnforcement without consequences just wears down the people who are supposed to enforce it.
- mikkupikku 7mo agoDeterrence is only part of it. It's morally instructive, it tells people that they live in a society that takes rules seriously.
- andybak 7mo agoWhat is the aim of "moral instruction" if not deterrence? Surely it needs be instruction in pursuit of an outcome?
- mikkupikku 7mo agoIt makes honest people feel rewarded, valued and acknowledge. It teaches people who wish to follow the rules and conform to social norms what those norms are and where we actually draw the line in practice. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment#Education_and_denunciation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punishment#Education_and_denun...
- fc417fc802 7mo agoLooked at slightly differently, given a split between high trust and low trust preventing conversions from high to low is similarly important to inducing conversions from low to high.
- bjourne 7mo agoCorrect. We also have evidence both from cheating in sports and in academia that stiff punishments do not work. Many people hold the false belief that if it is easy to cheat then the punishments must be extremely severe to scare would be cheaters. It just does not work. Preventing cheating is way easier said than done.
- lelanthran 7mo ago> We also have evidence both from cheating in sports and in academia that stiff punishments do not work. Maybe so, but there is evidence that lack of punishment also don't work. Neither extreme "works". Just because terminal punishments do not prevent the worst cheating does not in any way imply that slap on the wrists reduce incidents of cheating.
- bjourne 7mo agoThat's the American spirit. "We got to do something!" "Does it work?" "We must do something!"
- lelanthran 7mo agoI don't understand what point you are making. Are you claiming that one of the extremes "works"? That the "light punishment" route reduces cheating? Or maybe has no effect on cheating? There are two extremes; I am not arguing that the one extreme (terminal punishment) reduces cheating, I am saying that the other extreme (light punishment) does not reduce cheating! You say that stiff punishments have no effect on the cheating rate, right? Compare to what exactly? Compared to no punishments? Compared to light punishments? Compared to medium punishments? Compared to heavy but non-terminal punishments? Now that I've reread your comment, I'm extremely skeptical that terminal punishments have no effect on the cheating rate compared to light punishments or compared to medium punishments. It's an extraordinary claim, so I want to see this "lots of evidence"; the evidence should basically show no correlation between cheating and punishments. I want to see that chart you base your belief on.
- bluefirebrand 7mo agoThe point of a punishment is not solely to deter future crimes, it's also to actually punish the present crime though For instance jail time is not *just a deterrence, it's physically preventing someone from committing more crimes against the public
- harmf 7mo ago[flagged]
- CoastalCoder 7mo agoFYI we tend to use up votes rather than "I agree" comments, partly because it keeps the overall signal-to-noise ratio for comments higher.
- CoastalCoder 7mo agoThis line of reasoning interests me because it seems to arise in other contexts as well. Do very harsh punishments significantly reduce future occurrences of the offense in question? I've heard opponents of the death penalty argue that it's generallynot the case. E.g., because often the criminals aren't reasoning in terms that factor in the death penalty. On the other hand (and perhaps I'm misinformed), I've heard that some countries with death penalties for drug dealers have genuinely fewer problems with drug addiction. Lower, I assume, than the numbers you'd get from simply executing every user. So I'm curious where the truth lies.
- armchairhacker 7mo agoIs the death penalty scarier than life in prison?
- CoastalCoder 7mo agoI assume that depends on the individual. But FWIW, my point was about very harsh punishments in general, not specifically the death penalty.
- sieste 7mo agoI'm not sure it was meant that way, but nice metaphor. For some students "academic death" might really be better than a life of being trapped in a system that they can only navigate by cheating.
- Tade0 7mo agoMy understanding is that something among those lines happened: > All Policy A (no LLMs) reviews that were detected to be LLM generated were removed from the system. If more than half of the reviews submitted by a Policy A reviewer were detected to be LLM generated, then all of their reviews were deleted, and the reviewer themselves was removed from the reviewer pool. Half is a bit lenient in my view, but I suppose they wanted to avoid even a single false positive.
- wiseowise 7mo agoWhy not put them on a chain and let village stone them? Or better yet shoot them on the spot! That would send a message for sure.
- withinboredom 7mo ago> The students, if they are, should be banned for life. I'm all for repurcussions ... but a life is a long time and students are usually only at the beginning of it.
- laughingcurve 7mo agoThank goodness we have you passing judgment on the internet; otherwise who else would be around for us to do it? I'm glad you're willing to destroy someone for a mistake rather than letting them learn and change. We all know that arbitrary and harsh punishments solve everything.
- embedding-shape 7mo ago> destroy someone for a mistake "Oops, you told me not to do this, and I volunteered to agree to these stricter standards yet I flagrantly disregarded them, please forgive me" doesn't seem like something you just accidentally do, it's a conscious choice.
- RHSeeger 7mo agoIt has been shown time and again that, for most people, teaching them to be better and giving second chances is more effective than using forever-punishment as a warning for others.
- Al-Khwarizmi 7mo agoWell, maybe they found themselves in the last hours of the deadline without the reviews done... in some cases due to procrastination, but in a few cases perhaps because life is hard and they just couldn't do it. So they used the LLM as a last resort to not go beyond deadline (which I assume maybe was penalized as well?) To err is human, it makes sense that they are punished (and the harshest part of the punishment is not having a paper rejected, it's the loss of face with coauthors and others, BTW. Face is important in academia) but "for life" is way too much IMO.
- gcr 7mo agoThis year, having their own submissions desk-rejected is strong enough of a signal that the policy has some teeth behind it. Let’s ban em for life next year. I strongly feel that deterrence should be the goal here, not retribution IMO.
- lukan 7mo agoBetween banning someone for life and not doing anything, there usually are some other options.
- hn_go_brrrrr 7mo agoLike burned at the stake, tarred and feathered, drawn and quartered, etc.?
- bethekidyouwant 7mo ago- return to drawn and quartered in the town square?
- noduerme 7mo ago2% would be on the very low end of the number of people who lie, get caught, and become repeat offenders anyway.
- anonymousDan 7mo agoML reviewing is a total joke. Why do you have noob students reviewing a conference paper.
- ancillary 7mo agoI've been an AC (the person who manages the reviewing process and translates reviews into accept/reject decisions) at ICML and similar conferences a few times. In my experience, grad students tend to be pretty good reviewers. They have more time, they are less jaded, and they are keener to do a good job. Senior people are more likely to have the deep and broad field knowledge to accurately place a paper's value, but they are also more likely to write a short shallow review and move on. I think the worst reviews I've seen have been from senior people.
- maleldil 7mo agoIt's usually not "noob" students. Big conferences require reviewers to have at least one (usually more) published paper in major venues. For students, this usually means they went through the process of being the first author on a few papers.
- bonoboTP 7mo agoBecause someone has to do it. Conference submissions have ballooned as the field itself has ballooned. Whats your suggestion?
- marcosdumay 7mo agoIt's better if nobody does it than to send it to the randomizer.
- bonoboTP 7mo agoOk but you need peer reviewed publications to graduate with a PhD. And if you retort that the whole academic system is obsolete, well, it still carries a lot of prestige and legitimacy that makes politicians interested in maintaining it, so it's not going anywhere soon.
- bumby 7mo agoWhat makes you think these are mostly students? I may have missed that in the methodology