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North Korean's 100k fake IT workers net $500M a year for Kim
- SayThatSh 8mo agoIt's pretty impressive how far American salaries go in other countries. Between thousands of applications, if you manage to snag a single IT role with a larger corp you're potentially getting the local equivalent of dozens of people's regular income.
- downrightmike 8mo agoAnd it still doesn't come close to the value provided to the company
- black_13 8mo ago[dead]
- woah 8mo agoHow are these IT workers fake? Sounds like they are really doing the job.
- vlovich123 8mo agoReminds me of the Key & Peele sketch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgYYOUC10aM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgYYOUC10aM > Once employed in a full-time role, fake workers are often very successful, since they sometimes have multiple people helping them to produce their work, with the hope of getting a promotion and gaining more privileged access to the IT systems. I think the "fake" part is the long term play to get enough privilege to presumably perform a cybersecurity attack. But less "fake" and more "spy" from the description - the outlined scheme is literally what spies agencies do.
- ryandrake 8mo agoCame here to post this. I'm glad someone else thought of it. "Hear me out... we're going to rip of Western companies by... get this... writing code for them and taking home a paycheck week after week. They're just going to give us the money!!"
- dralley 8mo agoWell, it sounds like they are effectively slaves to the government, who is raking in their income on their behalf, and would presumably be able to "activate" them as an insider threat at some point.
- spwa4 8mo agoWell, it is (highly) illegal for them to do this. So they presumably lie about everything, like name, location, ... Perhaps fake is not the correct word, but the actual individuals are likely to have more than a few faked details. They do exist, of course. It's also very dubious becuase, well, would you really hire a worker from an organization that also does things like hack hospitals and then hold systems hostage for bitcoin?
- gradyfps 8mo agoTo be fair, "illegal" here doesn't matter. North Korea doesn't follow American law.
- spwa4 8mo agoObviously, when working you have to follow the law both in the country where you live and the country where you work. Even in the case of remote work. Sadly, even if you just consult. So you can be pretty sure: highly illegal.
- ambicapter 8mo agoWeird take on legality. They're working American jobs, breaking American law. Yes it matters.
- maest 8mo agoI'm sure American law enforcement will get the chance to arrest them next time they set foot in the US. Or maybe DPKR will extradite them, who knows?
- NoMoreNicksLeft 8mo agoIf we could prosecute and incarcerate them, how likely is it that a US prison is still an improvement over living in North Korea?
- benttoothpaste 8mo agoI would say they are "fake" because they work using stolen identities and hide their location. In order to receive these high wages they need to pretend to be located in US and they need to provide the paperwork showing they have a right to work there.
- GuestFAUniverse 8mo agoIf anyone pays so much money to someone they never met, or _dependable_ know their identity, that seems like a major fail. The whole idea that someone who couldn't legally enter the US, gets easier clearance than any tourist, or foreign academic with an opinion about the current gov that seems uncomfortable to them baffles me. Not the first time some priorities seem out of touch with reality.
- downrightmike 8mo agoBuT They"Re sO cHeAp!
- askl 8mo ago> It cites information from the US Government that these IT workers can earn more than $300,000 a year Doesn't sound that cheap.
- downrightmike 8mo agoCan doesn't mean does
- simonbw 8mo agoThe point is that there are legit American citizens who are in on the con. They have real SSNs and an actual presence in the US. They run proxy servers out of their house to make it seem like that's where their web traffic is coming from. From the company's perspective, everything seems like a regular remote employee.
- alephnerd 8mo ago> The point is that there are legit American citizens who are in on the con... For example - https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/arizona-woman-sentenced-17m-information-technology-worker-fraud-scheme-generated-revenue https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/arizona-woman-sentenced-17m-i... And another one ironically by a Ukrainian national who is ethnic Ukrainian and not Donbas Russian - https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/ukrainian-national-sentenced-laptop-farm-scheme-generated-income-north-korean-it-workers https://www.justice.gov/usao-dc/pr/ukrainian-national-senten...
- ck2 8mo agoActual atomic weapons not just stockpile, hundreds stave to death there daily, and everyone knows the famous satellite view of the entire country in darkness at night (while his palace is lit) Yet no oil so they will be one of the longest surviving tyrannies in history We can bet every country like them now will be building massive war drone factories too
- gpm 8mo agoIt's not the lack of oil that enabled this. The west* fought a bloody war to defeat North Korea. We just didn't win (though we did prevent the north from taking the south...). Now you've got a dictatorship protected by their ability to deal devastating damage to South Korea via nukes, huge stockpiles of conventional artillery (and Seoul is within range), etc. Moreover one backed by a superpower (China, and before China the soviet union... indeed these countries are the reason the west didn't win the first war as well). They could have all the oil in the world and we'd be no more in a position to do anything about it. *US, Uk, Australia, Netherlands, Canada, France, New Zealand, Phillipines, Tukey, Thailand, South Africa, Greece, Belgum, Luxembourg, Ethopia, Columbia, and South Korea.
- AnimalMuppet 8mo agoWe didn't win because China intervened in massive numbers to keep the regime in the North from losing the whole country.
- FpUser 8mo agoThe US did not win because the US did not win. Crying about the reasons does not help. Usual FAFO. Does not hurt to think of consequences before starting something
- gpm 8mo agoSouth Korea and its allies did not win - but they did successfully defeat the North Korean invasion of South Korea that started the war. Resulting in 53 million people today who live good lives in a high tech liberal democracy instead of living in abject poverty under the dictatorship that controls the north. Despite not winning, the consequences of the western nations going to war in this case appear to have been significantly positive. It's really the only war since WWII that I think I can confidently say that about.
- abtinf 8mo agoI’m a little unclear on the usage of the word “fake” here. Going by article, these are real people doing actual real work, they often use stolen identities to conceal information about themselves, and they get help from outside sources to do their jobs better. Whatever the right word is, it’s not “fake”. Maybe fraudulent? Or ulterior motives? Or deceptive? Or pretext? Or threat actor? Or foreign agents?
- 1970-01-01 8mo agoI don't think we have a word for this. At best, it is disingenuous work.
- systems 8mo agowe have many words for this Con, Fraud, Secret, Poseur, Imposter .. and after googling for more terms "Pseudonymist" seem a better fit
- sam-cop-vimes 8mo agoLabeling the actual worker negatively seems harsh - they are probably being forced into it by the state. You might say they can willingly underperform and not be used this way - but if the alternative is a much harder life, could you blame them for playing along?
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- Bombthecat 8mo agoSpies, at the end of the day they are spies.
- dayofthedaleks 8mo agoAdvanced Persistent Coworker
- floralhangnail 8mo ago
- staplung 8mo agoThe numbers in the headline seem odd. They imply that each (fake|fraudulent) worker only nets $5000 per year for Kim. I know the system has some inefficiencies where people behind the scenes are helping the "employee" with the work and there are cost of living expenses, taxes etc. but that seems like a pretty low take.
- daemonologist 8mo agoI had the same thought - I guess there's additional overhead in paying the in-country proxy and probably also a lot of churn (being found out and fired, and then taking a long time to find another position).
- chirpp 8mo ago5k a year could be 2 weeks of onboarding or waiting out a bureaucratic PIP process. Its also possible that its a numbers game and only 2/3 succeed at getting hired.
- RobotToaster 8mo agoIt would be ironic if the DPRK just passes on more of the money than most contract software companies.
- jhj 8mo agoThis might include people working in lumber camps in places like Siberia, "mercenaries" in Ukraine, people in NK-managed restaurants in China, Laos etc, or similar efforts that have been reported on, where the average revenue per worker is likely a lot lower.
- usefulcat 8mo agoMaybe some of them don't remain employed for very long.
- film42 8mo agoCamera cuts to a tech bro at his desk with 3 jobs and 5 instances of Claude Code running: > I had [the Register] explain to me three times what [Kim] got arrested for because it sounds an awful lot like what I do here every day.
- ge96 8mo agoCamera zooms in from the bottom of the keyboard https://youtu.be/7HWfwLBqSQ4?si=LmKuVBRVQ0y03prP&t=52 https://youtu.be/7HWfwLBqSQ4?si=LmKuVBRVQ0y03prP&t=52
- OutOfHere 8mo agoHow is it that corporations can't get their act together wrt sensible hiring of remote workers? Before giving someone a final offer letter, why is it so difficult to meet them once (somewhere outside of North Korea and China)? The cost is negligible compared to a large salary. What corporations actually do for verification also is equally damning. They ask for references, which no coworker really has an obligation to give, and it comes in the way of independent thought. Meanwhile, those from North Korea will sail through this blocker by having their fellow countrymen serve as references.
- simonbw 8mo agoI mean, if the North Korean employees are doing good work, the companies employing them aren't exactly incentivized to find out that they're really North Koreans, cuz then they have an obligation to fire their actually productive employee.
- OutOfHere 8mo agoHuh. The onus is to do the personal verification during the interview and offer process. It doesn't make any sense to do it once the employee has already been onboarded, although it makes sense to visually ensure from time to time that they're still the same person that was interviewed.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 8mo ago>why is it so difficult to meet them once (somewhere outside of North Korea and China)? The cost is negligible compared to a large salary. It wouldn't matter. They'd hire some actor to do it. If you insist that they take precautions to be sure the person in the video interview looks like the guy they meet, they'll do that too... but the one doing the work will do so remotely from Pyongyang. There might be technology fixes for this, but they almost certainly involve isolating the United States' internet from most of the rest of the world.
- OutOfHere 8mo agoYes, but it makes it a bit harder. Every verification step lowers the risk, if only a little bit. It does matter that much.
- mlmonkey 8mo agoA friend of mine got two such "fake" candidates for a coding interview. His experience reminded me of those "Nigerian Prince" emails from 20 years ago. These two gentlemen had western names (like "Brandon Smith") but Asian features and a tenuous grasp of spoken English; even though they claimed to have undergrad degrees from US universities. And he could tell they were looking at another screen to copy code from. After just a few minutes he realized what was going on, but continued the interview just to get the experience.
- rustyhancock 8mo agoFrankly sounds like many "real" candidates I've interviewed. The tenuous grasp of spoken English despite a degree taught in English is also not unusual. Setting aside the fraud for a moment (which is an insurmountable barrier to employeeing them). To some extent I'd be satisfied if they actually had a degree and were productive. They obviously need good enough receptive and written English to work. Especially if they are earning 5k per year as the title suggests.
- cj 8mo agoThe far more common fraud is: 1) Hire fake candidate 2) You realize they're fake 1-2 weeks into the role. They are unreliable. They don't show up for meetings. You have trouble communicating with them 3) You fire them But they've already won the game. They collected a single paycheck. And for an intermediate (even junior) dev position, collecting even just a single paycheck is a big pay day for them. The main cost to the company is time wasted, needing to open the role once more to find a real candidate who can actually do the job. I think it's incredibly rare for these candidates to actually do the job well. (They also have fake resumes, all of their experience is made up -- so if you're expecting expertise, you're likely not going to get it)
- GrinningFool 8mo agoNot just paycheck. They had access to some or all of your company's internal system, code, and data for the duration. That's a much bigger threat.
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- kfluga92 8mo ago[dead]
- jasonvorhe 8mo agoI'm so tired of this intellectually dishonest phrasing of making everything about "controversial" individuals whenever they're perceived as being the current villain, whether that's Putin, Elon, Kim or whatever. Just terrible writing.
- OutOfHere 8mo agoThey aren't just perceived as being the villain; they are the villain. They will copy your corporate data and exploit it in multiple ways. They will steal your corporate funds. As an aside, they also do significant cryptocurrency theft.
- narrator 8mo agoNorth Korea runs like a big organized crime family that specializes in forced labor human trafficking and drugs. I've read that they even operate overseas businesses that send slaves that aren't allowed to leave those businesses such as for timber harvesting in the Russian far east and various businesses in South East Asia. The Latin American cartels operate almost like miniature North Koreas.
- themafia 8mo agoThis is why JFK considered it so important for the US to end it's imperial tendencies. It's like that 90's cocaine commercial. "Where'd you learn to do this?" "I learned it by watching you, allright?!"
- narrator 8mo agoThey actually learned it from Stalin who ran organized crime gangs before the revolution that did extortion, racketeering, armed robbery, and piracy on the high seas among other things to fund Lenin's revolution. Young Stalin by Montefiore gets really deep into this. It's a very interesting read.
- sivakon 8mo agoThat book is an anti-communist propaganda with 'came to me in a dream' sources.
- ifwinterco 8mo agoDon't forget crypto fraud as well (maybe the least bad, out of all of these)
- iLoveOncall 8mo agoSo $5,000 per? That's nothing at all. They could make a lot more by doing other things.
- tartoran 8mo agoIn North Korea that's likely a lot of money. They probably get paid a lot less than that and Kim pockets the rest.
- paulpauper 8mo agoIt's evident starting in 2017-2018 with the surge of the price of crypto and the rise of WFH with COVID, North Korea pivoted from rockets to much more lucrative and safer cyber theft to enrich its leadership and attack the West. A success. Policy makers don't care.
- farceSpherule 8mo ago[dead]
- jamesvzb 8mo ago[flagged]
- Barrin92 8mo agoGenuinely baffled by the logistics of this. The article makes it sound like these are large numbers of people in NK or surrounding countries who rely on Google translate, so not sophisticated spies or whatever. Even if they get their hands on a fake American ID, these are taxable, insured jobs, they're not working at a restaurant under the table. IT companies ship out hardware, where are these people banked etc? How does this practically look, officially you're working with Mark Johnson but you end up on a zoom call with a guy who speaks broken English and connects from the other part of the world and you're not suspicious?
- nottorp 8mo agoBut are only North Koreans fake? I got an offer to "lend" my resume/identity to an upwork profile for a couple hundred per ... week iirc. Or was it month? It could have been NK but it could have also been any other country where that makes financial sense. Or someone running a bunch of "AI"s.
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- hsuduebc2 8mo ago>Alternatively, there is a killer interview question, as reported by The Register previously: ask them something like "How fat is Kim Jong Un?" and if they are a North Korean, they will terminate the call instantly. I wonder if they know that he is fat and are afraid to tell, or that it is strictly forbidden to answer these types of questions. I don't really believe this "hack" can work long term.
- koliber 8mo agoI’ve had the call terminate with such candidates after frankly stating that they are from North Korea and lying about everything. The person in front of the camera would try to maneuver out of it and then the call ended as if someone pulled the plug behind the scenes. I’ve built some pretty decent heuristics to identify them before wasting time on interviews.
- hsuduebc2 8mo agoIt's that common to encounter them? How do you recognize this scam? The deepfakes are not good enough, or by something like accent?
- koliber 8mo agoNever had a deepfake. I am recruiting in Poland, they say that they're Polish, have very Polish names, but they are clearly not Polish and not in Poland. It's easy enough to spot their resume's if you know what you're looking for. If you're interested, I can share, but email me (email is in my HN profile).
- igoy_k67 8mo ago[flagged]
- realaliarain74 8mo ago[dead]
- nacozarina 8mo agoDPRK prisoner-conscripts are competitive at enduring fifteen rounds of skull-numbingly repetitive interviews only to get a sh!t offer, takes it anyway for the creds&lols, well surprise surprise
- tstrimple 8mo agoA buddy of mine recently got a suspicious request which I'm pretty sure is how these NK workers are getting jobs. In this case, the dev is allegedly from Japan. But I don't think the NK folk are out there proudly stating they are from NK. "Thank you for your reply. You’ll only need to spend about 1–2 hours maximum in a day for our collaboration. We need a person who has experience in software development. so I tried to find a collaborator on github and also found your profile on it. I will explain why I'm looking for a collaborator. The reason is that the job market between the US and Japan is significantly different - often 2 to 3 times in rates. Because of this, I focused on working with US clients. I usually work at night and sleep during the day due to the time zone difference. However, even though I adjust my schedule, US clients often hesitate to hire me because they're uncomfortable with the time zone difference or concerned about communication due to our non-native English. To solve this, I tried to collaborate with an US developer who communicates with clients, while I focus on the development work. You wouldn't need to develop anything yourself unless you want. You don’t need to develop any code or communicate with the client. All you need to do is attend the meetings on video calls. You’ll only need to spend about 1–2 hours maximum in a day for our collaboration. In return for your participation, I’d like to propose the following arrangement: for the first job we secure, we’ll split the total income 50/50 after taxes. Starting from the second job, you’ll receive 30% and I’ll receive 70% of the total income. I'm not looking for a random US person - I'm specifically looking for someone with solid development experience. Even though I don't require any coding from the collaborator, without development experience they can't handle client communication properly or understand project requirements. That's why I found your profile on GitHub and decided to reach out to you. Could we have a meeting to discuss more in more detail? I have a clear strategy to get a success and looking forward to your reply"
- judahmeek 8mo agoI wrote a blog post of my experience playing double agent: https://judahmeek.com/p/my-first-day-as-a-technical-interview https://judahmeek.com/p/my-first-day-as-a-technical-intervie...
- hulitu 8mo ago> North Korean's 100k fake IT workers net $500M a year for Kim So each made $5000 a year. They could have worked in China for better wages.
- sivakon 8mo agoWhat exactly is fake? People or their work?