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Honda is setting itself up for failure on the second disruption sweeping the automotive industry: the software-defined vehicle (SDV), which has core capabilitie

Honda is setting itself up for failure on the second disruption sweeping the automotive industry: the software-defined vehicle (SDV), which has core capabilities that can be upgraded and improved over time. No thank you. Not sure why the author frames this as a good thing. They've been bamboozled by the automakers and have got it backwards - you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled, then paying rent (or a fee) to turn them on. I'm much more likely to buy from a manufacturer that doesn't play these games.

cyanydeez 7mo ago
It's techcrunch. The angle of software-everything has to be there. Why honda is killing EVs is directly related to just how damn cheap Chinese EVs have become and how stupid Americans are when it comes to EV efficiency. Who the hell wants large vehicles for EV when the best solutions are small efficient vehicles with long drive times. Americans distort the market and margins, and Honda was never in the large SUV game.
- stackghost 7mo ago
  Americans in most of their country are besieged by massive SUVs and pickups. Driving a tiny little Japanese/Chinese import in, say, Oklahoma is asking to get literally run over.
  - Loughla 7mo ago
    I get the trucks and SUV's where you need them. I live in a rural area and without ground clearance and 4x4, I literally wouldn't be able to visit my parents. But my daily driver is a Honda Civic. Because 75% of my driving is done on paved roads that are well maintained (except in the winter). What kills me are the MASSIVE vehicles in the suburbs though. Why do you need a 3 ton suburban to drive around 2 kids on very clear, very well maintained streets? Why would you buy a 4x4 truck when the most off road you'll do is driving over wet leaves on your cul-de-sac in the fall?
    - 0_____0 7mo ago
      CAFE regs made USian hugecars relatively profitable, and car makers got USians to demand them via savvy marketing. That's what I reckon anyway.
      - rudhdb773b 7mo ago
        The word "American" already unambiguously describes people of the USA. You don't need to make up a new word.
        0_____0 7mo ago
        1. Synonyms exist in language. 2. You're on a site with a bunch of programmers who regularly use weird words for stuff that already has a name. Reading through HN is wading through a swamp of made up names and tech neologisms, you're just used to it already. I once told a software guy that our team's SWEs had migrated away from React and Node to Stork.JS and Blackadder. He nodded like that meant anything. 3. I like it and you can't stop me.
        mbernstein 7mo ago
        Stork.JS is a really well written piece of software, though.
        0_____0 7mo ago
        devs have really got to start using NSA style naming conventions where they use the Joycean compound with random stuff that sounds cool e.g. BANNANADAIQUIRI or FOXACID.
        defrost 7mo ago
        The word "American" has many sub entries in the Oxford English Dictionary - not all of those meanings are "citizen of the USofA". So much for unambiguous.
  - ehnto 7mo ago
    I don't disagree with your first statement but there is a huge range of cars in the Japanese market. They make the Toyota Land Cruiser and Nissan Patrol after all, smaller by American standards but the biggest cars most other countries will see.
  - mikkupikku 7mo ago
    I've got a Mazda 3 and I don't worry about SUVs or trucks running over me. Drive sober and watch the road, don't use your phone. Do this and you reduce your risk of an accident by something absurd like 1000x. The reason people love massive vehicles is because they're shitty drivers, they know they're shitty drivers, and they have no intention of changing. They want to text while driving and they want it to be the vehicle's responsibility to keep them alive when they go off the road or get run over by a train, or drift into the opposing lane. Keep your eyes peeled for these morons, keep your head on a swivel. If you're attentive you're already in the 90% percentile. Paying attention is better safety than even a seat belt.
    - cyanydeez 7mo ago
      I love minding my own business and not having to worry about driving through narrow roads, etc. People definitely drive SUVs so they can try not to care about other people.
- deleted 7mo ago
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- maxsilver 7mo ago
  > Honda was never in the large SUV game. (The Honda Pilot and Honda Passport stare at you, with deep resentment)
slg 7mo ago
>you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled, then paying rent (or a fee) to turn them on. This is very much not what "software-defined vehicle" means which itself is very much not the same thing as EVs. It's possible to criticize the explotative business practices you mentioned (or bad UI practices like moving everything to a touchscreen instead of physical buttons) without linking them to other issues that have no real relation beyond falling under the general category of "technology". At a societal level, EVs are generally better than ICE cars. At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. These two things can be true without endorsing automakers who charge and extra fee to activate the seat warmers that already exist in the vehicle.
- deleted 7mo ago
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- maxerickson 7mo ago
  How many software recalls did something other than fix a bug or derate something?
  - jleyank 7mo ago
    What happens if they screw up the update or a net error occurs? Will this wedge the entertainment system, motor logic or what?
- scj 7mo ago
  > "At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update..." If an over-the-air patch can have that kind of impact, then what happens if security is compromised and that power is used for ill?
  - slg 7mo ago
    When was the last time you worried about someone cutting your brakes? A lot of times these hypothetical fears are disconnected from reality. Security is important, but people generally don't engage in destruction for destruction's sake so improving default safety levels has been a clear net positive for society so far. Maybe I'm being shortshighted and a future security exploit will change that, but it's not something I currently fear as someone whose car gets occasional OTA updates.
fwipsy 7mo ago
It doesn't have to be ethical. Honda is missing out on something profitable.
- roysting 7mo ago
  Ironically Honda announced its move, precisely to bandage the gaping $16 billion wound from EV reorganization and retooling.
- rkagerer 7mo ago
  Not really. Competitors shifting focus out of the space, combined with their being incredibly competitive in the space (they're known for making some of the most reliable engines), says to me they've found their product-market fit. They've got plenty of time to quietly reboot and have another crack at the EV game down the road. This is one of those times I'll trust the judgement of the grey haired execs who actually have all the numbers, over the plucky young journalist who's just spouting an editorial opinion. (Nothing against the latter, I just think in this specific case they're naive and dead wrong).
dahart 7mo ago
> you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled, then paying rent (or a fee) to turn them on. I'm much more likely to buy from a manufacturer that doesn't play these games. Ongoing subscriptions for access to physical hardware features like seat warmers* seems obnoxious at first glance, but a fee is more reasonable and you might find that there aren’t many auto makers that don’t do this or aren’t planning on it. BTW there’s very little in software or electronics that doesn’t do this, and many other consumer products do too. What might be less visible is how often the hardware is included and made trivial for a dealer to upgrade but doesn’t have a remote software unlock. It’s the same thing and it’s been happening for decades, but gets less outrage. You would have paid a fee for the feature if it wasn’t included. Focusing on features being there already and locked being somehow “bamboozles” isn’t necessarily the right way to frame this, even from a pro-consumer perspective. This practice of building the high end model and locking some features behind a paywall makes the design and manufacturing cheaper for everyone by having only one design. The paywall model suggests that the design costs are more important than the manufacturing or materials costs of these features. That’s absolutely true for software apps, and it’s accepted by and large and we don’t feel like that’s a skeezy game. It doesn’t surprise me at all that with manufacturing at a global scale, it makes more sense to build one model and lock some features with software. Do think of the potential benefits we get from this model - overall lower prices (in theory) from simplified design and manufacturing; the ability to upgrade later after you buy (or even downgrade if you don’t like it and it’s a subscription). * AFAIK the BMW seat warmers subscription was a rumor at one point, got a bunch of online uproar, but didn’t actually happen? I’m not sure if anyone has actually done this.
- deleted 7mo ago
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- direwolf20 7mo ago
  It's legal to cut the seat heater relay out of the circuit and wire it to your own, right?
  - dahart 7mo ago
    Yes, as far as I know, and I hope so. Looks like BWM did try it, and rolled the program back after backlash. Maybe I recall it was hacked too?
neya 7mo ago
Most people including the author think more software = premium/better. But as software engineers, we know better. That's not the case at all. More software = more control by everyone else except you. Manufacturers. Governments. For this reason, I always avoid cars with big flashy LCD screens that are central to controlling the cars accessories like sunroof, AC and other electricals. The other issue is support. So many models stop getting updates after 5 years. So, if there is a bug in that big screen, you have to live with it for the rest of the car's life. Finally, there's the issue of privacy. Most manufacturers contract with analytics vendors to send your data back to them. You can't even turn it off. For example, MG (now chinese owned) has Adobe analytics embedded into their big screens. The only reason chinese love using Adobe over other vendors is because they aren't blocked in China. So that's usually a dead giveaway that your data is being sent back there. What kind of data? You will be surprised. 1. How many people are inside the car at a given point (measuring laden weight) 2. What are your favorite spots (your home, office, restaurants, etc) 3. How many people live in your family (average laden weight over time) 4. Your favorite routes, highways 5. If you are married/have kids 6. If you're having an affair 7. Your annual income, monthly spend, estimated net worth And a lot more data points that I can list here. Remember, they have access to additional data brokers to stitch a complete user profile about you too.
- palmotea 7mo ago
  > More software = more control by everyone else except you. Manufacturers. Governments. Also more unreliability, because software engineers often aren't real engineers. > The other issue is support. So many models stop getting updates after 5 years. So, if there is a bug in that big screen, you have to live with it for the rest of the car's life. The problem here is (probably) the internet, which gives management an excuse to slack on QA. If there was no chance to ever update the software, they'd probably do a better job. But now with the internet, they can say they'll just fix it in a patch later, but then never actually get around to doing that. There ought to be a law that says car software may only be shipped on console-style non-flash ROM carts.
- WalterBright 7mo ago
  I was told by a car dealer service guy that if the touch screen went on the blink, the car would be totaled. (Since replacing it cost more than the car was worth.) I've often thought the touch screen should be replaced by a socket that accepts an iPad, and put the auto custom software on that. Why reinvent the hardware?
hedora 7mo ago
As far as I can tell, a software defined vehicle is one that has fewer computers in it for cost cutting reasons. There’s an argument to be made that this allows better integration between subsystems, and therefore a better user experience. We have a vehicle built this way. It is a death trap. Most of its safety issues can’t really be blamed on it using a new computer network technology. For instance, if it is dawn or dusk (so, commute hours) the vision systems get flaky and it likes to override steering and brakes to force itself into oncoming or merging traffic. However, one issue is firmly due to it being a software defined vehicle. If you are changing lanes with the turn signal on, and hit a bump while the passenger adjusts the stereo volume, they’ll accidentally turn the hazard lights on. Af that point the steering override will kick in and try to force abort the lane change. A normal car wouldn’t be able to wire the hazards into the power steering subsystem, and also probably wouldn’t have the button be part of the radio control panel.
- arbitrary_name 7mo ago
  can you share what vehicle that is? i don't know why you wouldn't just name it in the post...
  - schiffern 7mo ago
    Looks like it's the F-150 Lightning. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47421383 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47421383 I chalk it up to poorly designed software from a company where software isn't the core competency, rather than blaming the basic concept of putting software in a vehicle. "Bad software is bad" doesn't have the same ring though...
    - trashb 7mo ago
      I think in this case the point being made is "bad software makes the whole product bad", not just "bad software is bad". Its similar to how bad brakes or a roof prone to leaking makes the whole car a bad car. The "weakest link" undermines the whole system. > software isn't the core competency Software is a essential part of modern cars, remove the software and they don't function (or in some cases are not allowed on the road). The car manufacturers "core competency" is making cars so I would argue that software is definitely a "core competency" of a modern car manufacturer.
screye 7mo ago
What core capabilities of a car need to be improved anyway ?
deleted 7mo ago
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simondotau 7mo ago
I appreciate your sentiment, and I agree with you in the hypothetical universe I think you’re imagining. But in this universe, that ship has long since sailed. Cars are software. They have been so for a long time. The only difference between a Tesla and an economy car from Stellantis is whether the software is well written or not. My wife has a 2015 Jeep Cherokee. For its purpose It’s actually quite a nice vehicle, sending aside concerns of mechanical reliability. But it also has many annoyances, and EVERY single one of them (with no exceptions) are software-defined bugs or behaviours, and all could all be improved with software updates. But legacy order has never cared about improving software after you bought the car. For all of Tesla’s many faults, they one of the first automakers where it feels like the software is not abandonware. It’s a positive trend and it’s nice to see a few other manufacturers following suit.
- kstenerud 7mo ago
  I literally worked on building the next generation of handheld OBD devices (m68000 based) that techs used to reflash Toyota ECUs in 1997. Automakers can and do update software after the car has been sold. Before that, techs would need to swap EEPROMS.
  - simondotau 7mo ago
    It’s getting better, but even now many traditional automakers strictly limit software updates to bug fixes only. And they'll probably only fix the bug if there's a legal or sales incentive to do so. My own car is a 2013 BMW 125i. Its software stack received a handful of very simple quality-of-life improvements in 2014. The clearest example is the on-screen volume overlay. As delivered, my car’s volume knob provided absolutely no visual feedback. If you ask nicely, BMW dealership can update it. But that's not enough. The way BMW "codes" your vehicle after a software update means that any features introduced after its date of manufacture are disabled. So even after I had the dealer install newer software (to fix a crashing bug with navigation) the volume overlay didn’t appear. What I ended up having to do was "recode" the ECU with a new delivery date. Literally all I did was change the delivery date in a pirated copy of BMW E-Sys, push the change to the car, and the overlay appeared like magic.
- 7mo ago
smsm42 7mo ago
I'm not sure what exactly pisses me off so much in this idea - after all, I am not upset by the existence of $Brand Basic, $Brand Premium, $Brand Luxury and $Brand Now-Everybody-Knows-You-Have-Money, each of which has different features and bells and whistles. But put it in one single box and charge me monthly rent to go from Basic to Premium - and it does feel wrong. Even if TCO of Premium comes out as lower over time. I don't know why exactly it feels that way but it looks like it feels that way to a lot of people. Maybe it's daily reminder that all the luxuries are right here, right under your fingers, if only you weren't so miserably poor? Or the constant necessity of begging somebody else for permission to use your own car (yes, car loans, but they feel different)? Not sure. But it feels like it's real, even if it's only in my head.
- ctack 7mo ago
  I think you've captured it perfectly with "Maybe it's daily reminder that all the luxuries are right here, right under your fingers, if only you weren't so miserably poor?" The enshitification of the car.
deepsun 7mo ago
Maybe, but customers DO want it, without realizing. I'm a decent DIYer, but I realize my wishes is not the same as a typical customer. Sadly, but customers vote with their wallets.
monegator 7mo ago
Also because SDVs actually come with half baked firmwares that make the ECU crash, throw down the CAN network, make lights and screens act up... Who cares, because they are now connected to the internet and can be updated with links at effective speeds higher than 10kbps, and without having to go to the dealer.
RataNova 7mo ago
I don't think the author is saying "subscriptions are good", more like "if Honda isn't even building the capability, they're not even in the game"
BiteCode_dev 7mo ago
And bugs, and DRM, and mass surveillance, and giving the power to the state to abuse even more of the tech, and giving police super powers, and giving bad actors (terrorists, assassins) the abilities to kill you with a virus, and the general concentration of power that this implies. This is a terrible idea, and that's why I have mixed feelings about the robo taxi. On one hand, it's a great resource-sharing tech. On the other hand, all of the above.
s3p 7mo ago
I don't know the author insinuated that. It sounded more like, we release the car now, and as engineers come up with new capabilities, they get rolled out over a software update. Case in point was my car received an update that pulled in weather data. That didn't exist in the UI originally, and they added it with time.
21asdffdsa12 7mo ago
Honda is going to be the "opt-out" on that future car. And if one defect - the mafia has to pay you to raise your prices to prevent mass-defection by the customers from what is essentially a defect by default car. Honda is going to get kickbacks by the EV industry to be more expensive.
jcarrano 7mo ago
"Download more HP" is the new "download more RAM".
- ExoticPearTree 7mo ago
  I hate to break it to you, but unless you own a mainframe that allows you unlock more RAM (that is already physically installed), unlocking more HP via software is actually how tunning works; and it is mot a scam from the 90s where you buy TurboRAM or whatever snake oil was sold back then.
a456463 7mo ago
Exactly. I dont want the software and I dont want something that I paid $100k to be gated tomorrow by a software update or broken by it. Or the constant reporting on me to god knows who. Until this dumbass touch screen design idea gets removed from a car, I am not buying such a car. Even it means paying more in gas. Touch and SDV is the dumbest thing in a car. My motion is not to be tracked and for sale. I love the new BMWs. Their software is shit tho.
gofreddygo 7mo ago
I think its a rational move for Honda. They cant compete with tesla et al on EVs or self driving. People buy honda for reliability and low TCO. The world is heading towards lower disposable income for maybe a decade. Honda is playing by strengths, market positioning appealing to a particular target audience and keeping its margins. It adds.

cyanydeez 7mo ago

It's techcrunch. The angle of software-everything has to be there. Why honda is killing EVs is directly related to just how damn cheap Chinese EVs have become and how stupid Americans are when it comes to EV efficiency. Who the hell wants large vehicles for EV when the best solutions are small efficient vehicles with long drive times. Americans distort the market and margins, and Honda was never in the large SUV game.

stackghost 7mo ago
Americans in most of their country are besieged by massive SUVs and pickups. Driving a tiny little Japanese/Chinese import in, say, Oklahoma is asking to get literally run over.
- Loughla 7mo ago
  I get the trucks and SUV's where you need them. I live in a rural area and without ground clearance and 4x4, I literally wouldn't be able to visit my parents. But my daily driver is a Honda Civic. Because 75% of my driving is done on paved roads that are well maintained (except in the winter). What kills me are the MASSIVE vehicles in the suburbs though. Why do you need a 3 ton suburban to drive around 2 kids on very clear, very well maintained streets? Why would you buy a 4x4 truck when the most off road you'll do is driving over wet leaves on your cul-de-sac in the fall?
  - 0_____0 7mo ago
    CAFE regs made USian hugecars relatively profitable, and car makers got USians to demand them via savvy marketing. That's what I reckon anyway.
    - rudhdb773b 7mo ago
      The word "American" already unambiguously describes people of the USA. You don't need to make up a new word.
      - 0_____0 7mo ago
        1. Synonyms exist in language. 2. You're on a site with a bunch of programmers who regularly use weird words for stuff that already has a name. Reading through HN is wading through a swamp of made up names and tech neologisms, you're just used to it already. I once told a software guy that our team's SWEs had migrated away from React and Node to Stork.JS and Blackadder. He nodded like that meant anything. 3. I like it and you can't stop me.
        mbernstein 7mo ago
        Stork.JS is a really well written piece of software, though.
        0_____0 7mo ago
        devs have really got to start using NSA style naming conventions where they use the Joycean compound with random stuff that sounds cool e.g. BANNANADAIQUIRI or FOXACID.
      - defrost 7mo ago
        The word "American" has many sub entries in the Oxford English Dictionary - not all of those meanings are "citizen of the USofA". So much for unambiguous.
- ehnto 7mo ago
  I don't disagree with your first statement but there is a huge range of cars in the Japanese market. They make the Toyota Land Cruiser and Nissan Patrol after all, smaller by American standards but the biggest cars most other countries will see.
- mikkupikku 7mo ago
  I've got a Mazda 3 and I don't worry about SUVs or trucks running over me. Drive sober and watch the road, don't use your phone. Do this and you reduce your risk of an accident by something absurd like 1000x. The reason people love massive vehicles is because they're shitty drivers, they know they're shitty drivers, and they have no intention of changing. They want to text while driving and they want it to be the vehicle's responsibility to keep them alive when they go off the road or get run over by a train, or drift into the opposing lane. Keep your eyes peeled for these morons, keep your head on a swivel. If you're attentive you're already in the 90% percentile. Paying attention is better safety than even a seat belt.
  - cyanydeez 7mo ago
    I love minding my own business and not having to worry about driving through narrow roads, etc. People definitely drive SUVs so they can try not to care about other people.
deleted 7mo ago
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maxsilver 7mo ago
> Honda was never in the large SUV game. (The Honda Pilot and Honda Passport stare at you, with deep resentment)

slg 7mo ago

>you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled, then paying rent (or a fee) to turn them on. This is very much not what "software-defined vehicle" means which itself is very much not the same thing as EVs. It's possible to criticize the explotative business practices you mentioned (or bad UI practices like moving everything to a touchscreen instead of physical buttons) without linking them to other issues that have no real relation beyond falling under the general category of "technology". At a societal level, EVs are generally better than ICE cars. At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update are generally better than recalls that will wait to get fixed until an owner schedules an appointment to have the car serviced. These two things can be true without endorsing automakers who charge and extra fee to activate the seat warmers that already exist in the vehicle.

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
maxerickson 7mo ago
How many software recalls did something other than fix a bug or derate something?
- jleyank 7mo ago
  What happens if they screw up the update or a net error occurs? Will this wedge the entertainment system, motor logic or what?
scj 7mo ago
> "At a societal level, cars that can automatically fix a "recall" with an over-the-air update..." If an over-the-air patch can have that kind of impact, then what happens if security is compromised and that power is used for ill?
- slg 7mo ago
  When was the last time you worried about someone cutting your brakes? A lot of times these hypothetical fears are disconnected from reality. Security is important, but people generally don't engage in destruction for destruction's sake so improving default safety levels has been a clear net positive for society so far. Maybe I'm being shortshighted and a future security exploit will change that, but it's not something I currently fear as someone whose car gets occasional OTA updates.

fwipsy 7mo ago

It doesn't have to be ethical. Honda is missing out on something profitable.

roysting 7mo ago
Ironically Honda announced its move, precisely to bandage the gaping $16 billion wound from EV reorganization and retooling.
rkagerer 7mo ago
Not really. Competitors shifting focus out of the space, combined with their being incredibly competitive in the space (they're known for making some of the most reliable engines), says to me they've found their product-market fit. They've got plenty of time to quietly reboot and have another crack at the EV game down the road. This is one of those times I'll trust the judgement of the grey haired execs who actually have all the numbers, over the plucky young journalist who's just spouting an editorial opinion. (Nothing against the latter, I just think in this specific case they're naive and dead wrong).

dahart 7mo ago

> you're buying a vehicle that already has the capabilities, but are disabled, then paying rent (or a fee) to turn them on. I'm much more likely to buy from a manufacturer that doesn't play these games. Ongoing subscriptions for access to physical hardware features like seat warmers* seems obnoxious at first glance, but a fee is more reasonable and you might find that there aren’t many auto makers that don’t do this or aren’t planning on it. BTW there’s very little in software or electronics that doesn’t do this, and many other consumer products do too. What might be less visible is how often the hardware is included and made trivial for a dealer to upgrade but doesn’t have a remote software unlock. It’s the same thing and it’s been happening for decades, but gets less outrage. You would have paid a fee for the feature if it wasn’t included. Focusing on features being there already and locked being somehow “bamboozles” isn’t necessarily the right way to frame this, even from a pro-consumer perspective. This practice of building the high end model and locking some features behind a paywall makes the design and manufacturing cheaper for everyone by having only one design. The paywall model suggests that the design costs are more important than the manufacturing or materials costs of these features. That’s absolutely true for software apps, and it’s accepted by and large and we don’t feel like that’s a skeezy game. It doesn’t surprise me at all that with manufacturing at a global scale, it makes more sense to build one model and lock some features with software. Do think of the potential benefits we get from this model - overall lower prices (in theory) from simplified design and manufacturing; the ability to upgrade later after you buy (or even downgrade if you don’t like it and it’s a subscription). * AFAIK the BMW seat warmers subscription was a rumor at one point, got a bunch of online uproar, but didn’t actually happen? I’m not sure if anyone has actually done this.

deleted 7mo ago
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direwolf20 7mo ago
It's legal to cut the seat heater relay out of the circuit and wire it to your own, right?
- dahart 7mo ago
  Yes, as far as I know, and I hope so. Looks like BWM did try it, and rolled the program back after backlash. Maybe I recall it was hacked too?

neya 7mo ago

Most people including the author think more software = premium/better. But as software engineers, we know better. That's not the case at all. More software = more control by everyone else except you. Manufacturers. Governments. For this reason, I always avoid cars with big flashy LCD screens that are central to controlling the cars accessories like sunroof, AC and other electricals. The other issue is support. So many models stop getting updates after 5 years. So, if there is a bug in that big screen, you have to live with it for the rest of the car's life. Finally, there's the issue of privacy. Most manufacturers contract with analytics vendors to send your data back to them. You can't even turn it off. For example, MG (now chinese owned) has Adobe analytics embedded into their big screens. The only reason chinese love using Adobe over other vendors is because they aren't blocked in China. So that's usually a dead giveaway that your data is being sent back there. What kind of data? You will be surprised. 1. How many people are inside the car at a given point (measuring laden weight) 2. What are your favorite spots (your home, office, restaurants, etc) 3. How many people live in your family (average laden weight over time) 4. Your favorite routes, highways 5. If you are married/have kids 6. If you're having an affair 7. Your annual income, monthly spend, estimated net worth And a lot more data points that I can list here. Remember, they have access to additional data brokers to stitch a complete user profile about you too.

palmotea 7mo ago
> More software = more control by everyone else except you. Manufacturers. Governments. Also more unreliability, because software engineers often aren't real engineers. > The other issue is support. So many models stop getting updates after 5 years. So, if there is a bug in that big screen, you have to live with it for the rest of the car's life. The problem here is (probably) the internet, which gives management an excuse to slack on QA. If there was no chance to ever update the software, they'd probably do a better job. But now with the internet, they can say they'll just fix it in a patch later, but then never actually get around to doing that. There ought to be a law that says car software may only be shipped on console-style non-flash ROM carts.
WalterBright 7mo ago
I was told by a car dealer service guy that if the touch screen went on the blink, the car would be totaled. (Since replacing it cost more than the car was worth.) I've often thought the touch screen should be replaced by a socket that accepts an iPad, and put the auto custom software on that. Why reinvent the hardware?

hedora 7mo ago

As far as I can tell, a software defined vehicle is one that has fewer computers in it for cost cutting reasons. There’s an argument to be made that this allows better integration between subsystems, and therefore a better user experience. We have a vehicle built this way. It is a death trap. Most of its safety issues can’t really be blamed on it using a new computer network technology. For instance, if it is dawn or dusk (so, commute hours) the vision systems get flaky and it likes to override steering and brakes to force itself into oncoming or merging traffic. However, one issue is firmly due to it being a software defined vehicle. If you are changing lanes with the turn signal on, and hit a bump while the passenger adjusts the stereo volume, they’ll accidentally turn the hazard lights on. Af that point the steering override will kick in and try to force abort the lane change. A normal car wouldn’t be able to wire the hazards into the power steering subsystem, and also probably wouldn’t have the button be part of the radio control panel.

arbitrary_name 7mo ago
can you share what vehicle that is? i don't know why you wouldn't just name it in the post...
- schiffern 7mo ago
  Looks like it's the F-150 Lightning. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47421383 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47421383 I chalk it up to poorly designed software from a company where software isn't the core competency, rather than blaming the basic concept of putting software in a vehicle. "Bad software is bad" doesn't have the same ring though...
  - trashb 7mo ago
    I think in this case the point being made is "bad software makes the whole product bad", not just "bad software is bad". Its similar to how bad brakes or a roof prone to leaking makes the whole car a bad car. The "weakest link" undermines the whole system. > software isn't the core competency Software is a essential part of modern cars, remove the software and they don't function (or in some cases are not allowed on the road). The car manufacturers "core competency" is making cars so I would argue that software is definitely a "core competency" of a modern car manufacturer.

screye 7mo ago

What core capabilities of a car need to be improved anyway ?

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

simondotau 7mo ago

I appreciate your sentiment, and I agree with you in the hypothetical universe I think you’re imagining. But in this universe, that ship has long since sailed. Cars are software. They have been so for a long time. The only difference between a Tesla and an economy car from Stellantis is whether the software is well written or not. My wife has a 2015 Jeep Cherokee. For its purpose It’s actually quite a nice vehicle, sending aside concerns of mechanical reliability. But it also has many annoyances, and EVERY single one of them (with no exceptions) are software-defined bugs or behaviours, and all could all be improved with software updates. But legacy order has never cared about improving software after you bought the car. For all of Tesla’s many faults, they one of the first automakers where it feels like the software is not abandonware. It’s a positive trend and it’s nice to see a few other manufacturers following suit.

kstenerud 7mo ago
I literally worked on building the next generation of handheld OBD devices (m68000 based) that techs used to reflash Toyota ECUs in 1997. Automakers can and do update software after the car has been sold. Before that, techs would need to swap EEPROMS.
- simondotau 7mo ago
  It’s getting better, but even now many traditional automakers strictly limit software updates to bug fixes only. And they'll probably only fix the bug if there's a legal or sales incentive to do so. My own car is a 2013 BMW 125i. Its software stack received a handful of very simple quality-of-life improvements in 2014. The clearest example is the on-screen volume overlay. As delivered, my car’s volume knob provided absolutely no visual feedback. If you ask nicely, BMW dealership can update it. But that's not enough. The way BMW "codes" your vehicle after a software update means that any features introduced after its date of manufacture are disabled. So even after I had the dealer install newer software (to fix a crashing bug with navigation) the volume overlay didn’t appear. What I ended up having to do was "recode" the ECU with a new delivery date. Literally all I did was change the delivery date in a pirated copy of BMW E-Sys, push the change to the car, and the overlay appeared like magic.
7mo ago

smsm42 7mo ago

I'm not sure what exactly pisses me off so much in this idea - after all, I am not upset by the existence of $Brand Basic, $Brand Premium, $Brand Luxury and $Brand Now-Everybody-Knows-You-Have-Money, each of which has different features and bells and whistles. But put it in one single box and charge me monthly rent to go from Basic to Premium - and it does feel wrong. Even if TCO of Premium comes out as lower over time. I don't know why exactly it feels that way but it looks like it feels that way to a lot of people. Maybe it's daily reminder that all the luxuries are right here, right under your fingers, if only you weren't so miserably poor? Or the constant necessity of begging somebody else for permission to use your own car (yes, car loans, but they feel different)? Not sure. But it feels like it's real, even if it's only in my head.

ctack 7mo ago
I think you've captured it perfectly with "Maybe it's daily reminder that all the luxuries are right here, right under your fingers, if only you weren't so miserably poor?" The enshitification of the car.

deepsun 7mo ago

Maybe, but customers DO want it, without realizing. I'm a decent DIYer, but I realize my wishes is not the same as a typical customer. Sadly, but customers vote with their wallets.

monegator 7mo ago

Also because SDVs actually come with half baked firmwares that make the ECU crash, throw down the CAN network, make lights and screens act up... Who cares, because they are now connected to the internet and can be updated with links at effective speeds higher than 10kbps, and without having to go to the dealer.

RataNova 7mo ago

I don't think the author is saying "subscriptions are good", more like "if Honda isn't even building the capability, they're not even in the game"

BiteCode_dev 7mo ago

And bugs, and DRM, and mass surveillance, and giving the power to the state to abuse even more of the tech, and giving police super powers, and giving bad actors (terrorists, assassins) the abilities to kill you with a virus, and the general concentration of power that this implies. This is a terrible idea, and that's why I have mixed feelings about the robo taxi. On one hand, it's a great resource-sharing tech. On the other hand, all of the above.

s3p 7mo ago

I don't know the author insinuated that. It sounded more like, we release the car now, and as engineers come up with new capabilities, they get rolled out over a software update. Case in point was my car received an update that pulled in weather data. That didn't exist in the UI originally, and they added it with time.

21asdffdsa12 7mo ago

Honda is going to be the "opt-out" on that future car. And if one defect - the mafia has to pay you to raise your prices to prevent mass-defection by the customers from what is essentially a defect by default car. Honda is going to get kickbacks by the EV industry to be more expensive.

jcarrano 7mo ago

"Download more HP" is the new "download more RAM".

ExoticPearTree 7mo ago
I hate to break it to you, but unless you own a mainframe that allows you unlock more RAM (that is already physically installed), unlocking more HP via software is actually how tunning works; and it is mot a scam from the 90s where you buy TurboRAM or whatever snake oil was sold back then.

a456463 7mo ago

Exactly. I dont want the software and I dont want something that I paid $100k to be gated tomorrow by a software update or broken by it. Or the constant reporting on me to god knows who. Until this dumbass touch screen design idea gets removed from a car, I am not buying such a car. Even it means paying more in gas. Touch and SDV is the dumbest thing in a car. My motion is not to be tracked and for sale. I love the new BMWs. Their software is shit tho.

gofreddygo 7mo ago

I think its a rational move for Honda. They cant compete with tesla et al on EVs or self driving. People buy honda for reliability and low TCO. The world is heading towards lower disposable income for maybe a decade. Honda is playing by strengths, market positioning appealing to a particular target audience and keeping its margins. It adds.