4 ms·

Eh, tbh I've given up. Can't point out the terrible things that the IDF are up to without being labelled an apologist, or terrorist supporter, or just getting a

Eh, tbh I've given up. Can't point out the terrible things that the IDF are up to without being labelled an apologist, or terrorist supporter, or just getting a massively negative reaction. Now I'm not one to fall prey to the conspiracy theories around Judaism...but like...is it not possible to say that both hamas and the IDF do terrible things? And that innocent civilians are caught in between, with the usual bad faith reasons of "they were hiding hamas members" aka the exact same rhetoric that Russia used when accused of something terrible that they obviously did, deflection and formal outrage. The very fact I feel I have to tread so carefully with my comment is an indication that something is seriously, seriously wrong. I don't live in China, I don't live in Russia. But when speaking about Israel or the IDF, I feel like I do.

bhouston 7mo ago
> is it not possible to say that both hamas and the IDF do terrible things? I agree. Hamas and IDF do terrible things - the ICC issued warrants for the leaders of both. This is why an external party has to impose a solution and it should involve in my opinion separation (two-states.) Both parties are radicalized at least for now and need to be separated and allowed to manage their own affairs while allowing the other to exist.
- nailer 7mo ago
  [flagged]
  - bhouston 7mo ago
    100% not true. Abbas wants a Palestinian state beside Israel. This is what he has supported for a long time. And why many states in the last two years have recognized a Palestinian state: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-president-general-assembly-1.7643286 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-pres... While there was rejectionists in the past, Netanyahu has been the rejectionist for the last two decades. He says so himself: https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-boasts-of-thwarting-the-establishment-of-a-palestinian-state-for-decades/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-boasts-of-thwarting-... He and his cronies boosted Hamas in part to split the Palestinians so as to avoid having to negotiate a two-state solution: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...
    - jon_adler 7mo ago
      [flagged]
      - hjkl0 7mo ago
        [flagged]
        this2shallPass 7mo ago
        > "Hitler did not kill the Jews because of their religion; he killed them because they were Jews. And we must remember that, because there are those who would do the same today if they could." — Benjamin Netanyahu, speaking at the World Holocaust Forum in 2020. > "Hitler was not only a mass murderer, he was a master of deception. He deceived the world about his true intentions, and ultimately, his goal was to exterminate the Jewish people." — Benjamin Netanyahu, during a speech at Yad Vashem in 2012. > "For many, Auschwitz is the ultimate symbol of evil. It is certainly that. The tattooed arms of those who passed under its infamous gates, the piles of shoes and eyeglasses seized from the dispossessed in their final moments, the gas chambers and crematoria that turned millions of people into ash, all these bear witness to the horrific depths to which humanity can sink." - Benjamin Netanyahu's speech at the 5th World Holocaust Forum in 2020 I hope every Hitler-apologist and Holocaust-denier says and believes things like that. Compare that to al-Husseini, a key figure worth learning about. He was an Arab leader that stoked anti-Jewish sentiment with religious propaganda about Al-Aqsa Mosque (still going today perpetuated by Hamas), possibly to distract from his corrupt management of religious endowments. Al-Husseini led anti-British and anti-Jewish violence for years. He contributed to what is a key turning point or escalation of the conflict, the Hebron Massacre in 1929. A rumor that Jews planned to take control of the Al-Aqsa Mosque resulted in a violent pogrom against a Jewish community with continuously presence for thousands of years. By the end the mob killed 67 Jews. The rioters attacked homes, horrifically tortured and killed entire families, mutilated, raped, stabbed children, and enacted mass destruction on the Jewish quarter. In many ways it was eerily similar to October 7th. I was shocked when I read about it. There were some noble people that saved lives from the hundreds. One Arab man literally rode in on a white horse to protect some defenseless people. What did al-Husseni say about the riot? > "The massacre in Hebron was the result of a natural and justified reaction to the growing presence of Jews in Palestine. The Jews were responsible for the violence that broke out." He blamed the victims. > "Palestine is the land of the Arabs, and it will remain so. The Zionist movement is an illegal act and must be opposed by all means, including violence." He advocated for violence. > "The Jews have no place in Palestine and should leave." al-Husseini had very close ties with Nazis. He broadcast Nazi propaganda over Arab radio from Berlin, urged Muslim and Arab populations to support Nazi efforts, and echoed their antisemitic ideology. He openly called for the destruction of Jewish communities in the Middle East. He helped recruit Muslim soldiers for the Waffen-SS, which is considered among the worst of the Nazi forces in terms of atrocities and war crimes. And Abbas? An actual Holocaust denier and revisionist? > "The Zionist movement cooperated with the Nazis in persecuting the Jews, and this is a well-known fact.” — Mahmood Abbas, 1982 in his PhD thesis "The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism." > "The number of Jews killed during the Holocaust is exaggerated." — Mahmood Abbas, 2018 These are some examples of what Holocaust denial and revisionism typically sound like.
  - throw310822 7mo ago
    The two-state solution doesn't need to be offered, it needs to be imposed. And it needs to be imposed on both parties, which means that Israel needs to be forced to withdraw within its legitimate borders. Israel (with the West's participation and complicity) has been perfectly able to impose on Palestinians the settlements, the walls and the apartheid. Therefore Israel and the West will have no trouble imposing on Palestinians wider borders, withdrawal from settlements and the end of the occupation.
    - xg15 7mo ago
      Yes. Another pattern you can observe throughout the years of the conflict, right now again in Lebanon: When Israel rejects an offer, they get a better offer. When everyone else in the region rejects an offer, they get a worse one.
  - tpm 7mo ago
    The State of Palestine is recognized as a sovereign state by 157 of the 193 member states of the United Nations, or just over 80% of all UN members. The only obstacle to the two-state solution is Israel and the US blocking it with powerful violence. Please don't lie.
    - nailer 7mo ago
      Countries recognising Palestine doesn't matter. Palestine wants one state and to kill all the Jews. They say so explicitly and repeatedly. Anyone who has done any research into the middle east knows this.
      - tpm 7mo ago
        Your comment is a complete racist fabrication. You should be banned.
catlifeonmars 7mo ago
If you feel the need to temper your speech to avoid offending people you are using the wrong moral compass. There are plenty of good reasons to speak carefully, thoughtfully and compassionately, but avoiding criticism is not a good reason.
- fennecbutt 7mo ago
  I'm not avoiding criticism, I'm avoiding very real legal repercussions by treading so lightly. Lest I get caught in the crossfire.
  - catlifeonmars 7mo ago
    That’s really unfortunate. What country are you in that there are legal repercussions? Understand if you don’t want to divulge that information.
    - fennecbutt 7mo ago
      The UK. But any Western country you run the risk of being labelled antisemitic for any and all criticism involving Israel. Now what's interesting about the Holocaust, is that gay prisoners were present in the concentration camps too. And those gay men were attacked, abused and sometimes even raped by the other prisoners. Even the Jews being persecuted at the time engaged in wholesale persecution of gays. And then those camps were finally liberated, the gays were free too right? Nope, sent em right back to prison, zero lessons learnt. They excluded us from raparations, from being recognised as victims of the Holocaust. Fucking disgusting. So when people bring up the Holocaust in relation to antisemitism it falls upon my deaf ears as a gay man.
Traster 7mo ago
I feel something very similar. I have strong views that what Israel is doing is wrong. But I look around at our politics (in the UK), and there is such a well oiled Israeli PR operation that is very happy making career ending accusations that talking publicly about this is actually quite dangerous (Not helped by the loonies who are, and have always been disgusting anti-semites). And you look at our politician's stance on it - and the career of people like Lord Walney, and it's clear we're in a very dangerous place. I think there is a very wide gap between what the average British person actually believes about Israel and what is happening to the Palestinians, and the acceptable positions you can express in Westminster. I also fear that once the dam breaks, and it's no longer the case, that the swing back against Israel is going to be quick harsh, and that's difficult because I have friends and family in Israel - I would like to see Israel be a free and open liberal democracy that shares what used to be western values, but maybe we're too late for that.
- ndbdkskk 7mo ago
  Also to note UK is on massive rise in anti muslim sentiment in recent years. That also a major contribution

bhouston 7mo ago

> is it not possible to say that both hamas and the IDF do terrible things? I agree. Hamas and IDF do terrible things - the ICC issued warrants for the leaders of both. This is why an external party has to impose a solution and it should involve in my opinion separation (two-states.) Both parties are radicalized at least for now and need to be separated and allowed to manage their own affairs while allowing the other to exist.

nailer 7mo ago
[flagged]
- bhouston 7mo ago
  100% not true. Abbas wants a Palestinian state beside Israel. This is what he has supported for a long time. And why many states in the last two years have recognized a Palestinian state: https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-president-general-assembly-1.7643286 https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/mahmoud-abbas-palestinian-pres... While there was rejectionists in the past, Netanyahu has been the rejectionist for the last two decades. He says so himself: https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-boasts-of-thwarting-the-establishment-of-a-palestinian-state-for-decades/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-boasts-of-thwarting-... He and his cronies boosted Hamas in part to split the Palestinians so as to avoid having to negotiate a two-state solution: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up...
  - jon_adler 7mo ago
    [flagged]
    - hjkl0 7mo ago
      [flagged]
      - this2shallPass 7mo ago
        > "Hitler did not kill the Jews because of their religion; he killed them because they were Jews. And we must remember that, because there are those who would do the same today if they could." — Benjamin Netanyahu, speaking at the World Holocaust Forum in 2020. > "Hitler was not only a mass murderer, he was a master of deception. He deceived the world about his true intentions, and ultimately, his goal was to exterminate the Jewish people." — Benjamin Netanyahu, during a speech at Yad Vashem in 2012. > "For many, Auschwitz is the ultimate symbol of evil. It is certainly that. The tattooed arms of those who passed under its infamous gates, the piles of shoes and eyeglasses seized from the dispossessed in their final moments, the gas chambers and crematoria that turned millions of people into ash, all these bear witness to the horrific depths to which humanity can sink." - Benjamin Netanyahu's speech at the 5th World Holocaust Forum in 2020 I hope every Hitler-apologist and Holocaust-denier says and believes things like that. Compare that to al-Husseini, a key figure worth learning about. He was an Arab leader that stoked anti-Jewish sentiment with religious propaganda about Al-Aqsa Mosque (still going today perpetuated by Hamas), possibly to distract from his corrupt management of religious endowments. Al-Husseini led anti-British and anti-Jewish violence for years. He contributed to what is a key turning point or escalation of the conflict, the Hebron Massacre in 1929. A rumor that Jews planned to take control of the Al-Aqsa Mosque resulted in a violent pogrom against a Jewish community with continuously presence for thousands of years. By the end the mob killed 67 Jews. The rioters attacked homes, horrifically tortured and killed entire families, mutilated, raped, stabbed children, and enacted mass destruction on the Jewish quarter. In many ways it was eerily similar to October 7th. I was shocked when I read about it. There were some noble people that saved lives from the hundreds. One Arab man literally rode in on a white horse to protect some defenseless people. What did al-Husseni say about the riot? > "The massacre in Hebron was the result of a natural and justified reaction to the growing presence of Jews in Palestine. The Jews were responsible for the violence that broke out." He blamed the victims. > "Palestine is the land of the Arabs, and it will remain so. The Zionist movement is an illegal act and must be opposed by all means, including violence." He advocated for violence. > "The Jews have no place in Palestine and should leave." al-Husseini had very close ties with Nazis. He broadcast Nazi propaganda over Arab radio from Berlin, urged Muslim and Arab populations to support Nazi efforts, and echoed their antisemitic ideology. He openly called for the destruction of Jewish communities in the Middle East. He helped recruit Muslim soldiers for the Waffen-SS, which is considered among the worst of the Nazi forces in terms of atrocities and war crimes. And Abbas? An actual Holocaust denier and revisionist? > "The Zionist movement cooperated with the Nazis in persecuting the Jews, and this is a well-known fact.” — Mahmood Abbas, 1982 in his PhD thesis "The Other Side: The Secret Relationship Between Nazism and Zionism." > "The number of Jews killed during the Holocaust is exaggerated." — Mahmood Abbas, 2018 These are some examples of what Holocaust denial and revisionism typically sound like.
- throw310822 7mo ago
  The two-state solution doesn't need to be offered, it needs to be imposed. And it needs to be imposed on both parties, which means that Israel needs to be forced to withdraw within its legitimate borders. Israel (with the West's participation and complicity) has been perfectly able to impose on Palestinians the settlements, the walls and the apartheid. Therefore Israel and the West will have no trouble imposing on Palestinians wider borders, withdrawal from settlements and the end of the occupation.
  - xg15 7mo ago
    Yes. Another pattern you can observe throughout the years of the conflict, right now again in Lebanon: When Israel rejects an offer, they get a better offer. When everyone else in the region rejects an offer, they get a worse one.
- tpm 7mo ago
  The State of Palestine is recognized as a sovereign state by 157 of the 193 member states of the United Nations, or just over 80% of all UN members. The only obstacle to the two-state solution is Israel and the US blocking it with powerful violence. Please don't lie.
  - nailer 7mo ago
    Countries recognising Palestine doesn't matter. Palestine wants one state and to kill all the Jews. They say so explicitly and repeatedly. Anyone who has done any research into the middle east knows this.
    - tpm 7mo ago
      Your comment is a complete racist fabrication. You should be banned.

catlifeonmars 7mo ago

If you feel the need to temper your speech to avoid offending people you are using the wrong moral compass. There are plenty of good reasons to speak carefully, thoughtfully and compassionately, but avoiding criticism is not a good reason.

fennecbutt 7mo ago
I'm not avoiding criticism, I'm avoiding very real legal repercussions by treading so lightly. Lest I get caught in the crossfire.
- catlifeonmars 7mo ago
  That’s really unfortunate. What country are you in that there are legal repercussions? Understand if you don’t want to divulge that information.
  - fennecbutt 7mo ago
    The UK. But any Western country you run the risk of being labelled antisemitic for any and all criticism involving Israel. Now what's interesting about the Holocaust, is that gay prisoners were present in the concentration camps too. And those gay men were attacked, abused and sometimes even raped by the other prisoners. Even the Jews being persecuted at the time engaged in wholesale persecution of gays. And then those camps were finally liberated, the gays were free too right? Nope, sent em right back to prison, zero lessons learnt. They excluded us from raparations, from being recognised as victims of the Holocaust. Fucking disgusting. So when people bring up the Holocaust in relation to antisemitism it falls upon my deaf ears as a gay man.

Traster 7mo ago

I feel something very similar. I have strong views that what Israel is doing is wrong. But I look around at our politics (in the UK), and there is such a well oiled Israeli PR operation that is very happy making career ending accusations that talking publicly about this is actually quite dangerous (Not helped by the loonies who are, and have always been disgusting anti-semites). And you look at our politician's stance on it - and the career of people like Lord Walney, and it's clear we're in a very dangerous place. I think there is a very wide gap between what the average British person actually believes about Israel and what is happening to the Palestinians, and the acceptable positions you can express in Westminster. I also fear that once the dam breaks, and it's no longer the case, that the swing back against Israel is going to be quick harsh, and that's difficult because I have friends and family in Israel - I would like to see Israel be a free and open liberal democracy that shares what used to be western values, but maybe we're too late for that.

ndbdkskk 7mo ago
Also to note UK is on massive rise in anti muslim sentiment in recent years. That also a major contribution