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'Pokémon Go' players unknowingly trained delivery robots with 30B images
- idiotsecant 8mo agoStalking as a service - upload a photo of your target and get back gps coordinates, coming soon!
- theultdev 8mo agoLet's turn it into a gig app. PIs need to live in the future too. Swipe left/right if you want to take the job.
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- nancyminusone 8mo agoI've seen at least a couple of services that promise to do just that come through this site. Some people think these just pass the info through to an LLM to ask it "where was this image taken" which reminds me a little of when the police ask psychics for help.
- casey2 8mo agoI wouldn't say "unknowingly" since stories like [0] have been posted for years/decades and people were given "free" internet (data) to play the game [1] . It's more that people just didn't give a shit. I'm sure there are new details about the usecases for the data, but not that data was collected unknowingly [0] https://auth0.com/blog/2016/07/11/pokemon-go-catches-all-your-data/ https://auth0.com/blog/2016/07/11/pokemon-go-catches-all-you... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12075477 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12075477 [1] https://www.theverge.com/2016/7/14/12192752/t-mobile-pokemon-go-free-data https://www.theverge.com/2016/7/14/12192752/t-mobile-pokemon... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12099159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12099159
- LollipopYakuza 8mo agoDespite the lack of transparency, is this so bad? Players are being given a game in exchange for collectively building a database.
- xnorswap 8mo agoIt's the lack of transparency that is bad. PokemonGo did not make it clear it was taking (and uploading) pictures. You could argue that "of course it must be for AR", but that isn't clear at all. The camera shows a live image before I take a photo, and I wouldn't expect a photo to be captured and sent if I didn't press the (virtual) shutter. There are probably some cheap phones that do precisely that, and I'd be just as annoyed at them and raise the same concerns.
- dawnerd 8mo agoI recall there being a pretty obvious notice when they first ask if you want to participate. Whether people read it is another thing.
- smegma2 8mo agoThe article doesn’t say when this collection happens but there is some part of the game the involves photographing specific landmarks which does involve pressing a shutter. I’m guessing that’s where this comes from but would be great to hear from a better source.
- pavon 8mo agoIt isn't recording surreptitiously. The data was collected as part of an optional feature which is a very intentional process where you start a scan and then move around the object being scanned to get data from multiple angles, and then click to upload the data to Niantic. The uploading is called out specifically as a separate step (at least early on it was common for uploads to fail, so it had the option to save the scan to upload later when you had better signal). There is nothing secret about the fact that Niantic is collecting this data. The lack of transparency is about how Niantic is using the data, selling it to third parties for purposes unrelated to the game. And I agree with the parent that this is a fair trade for a free game, especially since that part is optional, but more transparency would be better.
- abroszka33 8mo agoI like Pokemon Go and play almost every day. I did this scan one time and then stopped. The rewards are not worth the hassle. I don't think many players are doing it. It's just very weird to stand somewhere and scan an object. I also wouldn't say 'unknowingly trained', it's pretty obvious what it does, and I think the game even tells you that they want to understands how the POI looks like in 3D.
- organsnyder 8mo agoMy son showed me how he does these quests: he points the phone at the floor and just wiggles it back and forth.
- abroszka33 8mo agoHaha :D Good tip, I will try that too.
- FrustratedMonky 8mo agoexactly. that is why i doubt they will get actual navigable information out of it.
- pohl 8mo agoTo maintain that take, wouldn't you need to offer a plausible way that Niantic managed to train their Visual Positioning System using that data if the data was all bad?
- FrustratedMonky 7mo agoI guess we don't know the terms of the deal, as far as how much they paid? So maybe they didn't pay much, so whatever data they could extract was ok for the cost. The other point from article. I took this as experimental, so maybe we'll find out later that they really couldn't get much usable data.
- deadbabe 8mo ago
- tantalor 8mo ago> The massive crowdsourcing effort could use real-world to help robots deliver pizza. Huh? Does popsci not have copy editors?
- Aboutplants 8mo agoAt what point will we have people transmit their car dash cams along with GPS information in order to generate more data? I’m actually surprised this hasn’t happened yet with self driving car manufacturers needing more and more data
- jerlam 8mo agoGreat question. A "Ring Dashcam" with a mobile connection would win customers based on name recognition alone. Not a lot of big companies in the dashcam market, there are a lot of alphabet companies and some small players like Vantrue. The only company with broader recognition is Garmin and it feels like a weird side gig for them.
- chaps 8mo agoThis.... absolutely already happens. It's trivial and cheap to purchase the three meter, three second resolution data of millions of vehicles.
- xnx 8mo agohttps://www.getnexar.com/ https://www.getnexar.com/ Not obvious if they're successfully selling any of their collected data yet, but they must at least have plans to try.
- dawnerd 8mo agoTesla does it and clearly it’s not all that useful in reality.
- KaiserPro 8mo agoThats because Tesla is useless, not because the data isn't valuable. Tesla has explicitly ruled out using "HD maps" for autonomous vehicles. This means that all the data they have is going to not building maps, but building scenarios for testing its self driving models. If you look at Wayve, they are building nerf maps to allow them to create scenarios for edge cases. all of that comes from the gathered data. If you want to build visual navigation systems, you need lots of fresh data from all over. Seeding it with the data that naintic has is useful, but a lot of that data is out of date so not that useful anymore.
- tantalor 8mo ago> crowdsourced data, seemingly collected for one purpose > Whether players knew it or not, those scans were creating 3D models of the real world Kind of shitty reporting. Did users know about this data collection or not? Was it not disclosed?
- jeroenhd 8mo agoThe privacy policy was just a generic corporate "we may collect some information to improve a service" crap. Technically, lawyers will argue that users had to opportunity to inform themselves. Practically, nobody knew.
- organsnyder 8mo agoThe quests themselves are prominently labeled "AR mapping". You don't need to go into the privacy policy to know what they are.
- pavon 8mo agoIt is not at all clear that the mapping is for purposes other than the AR features in the game itself though. In fact Niantic advertised the scanning field research as helping them make richer experience at PokeStops (which they did). Niantic was much more upfront about this with Ingress, so people who know the company's history will likely guess that Pokemon Go is serving the same purpose, but for someone coming into the game without that background, there is nothing in the game itself that indicates that data is being collected for other commercial purpose.
- tantalor 7mo agoRight, but it sounds like the data collection itself was pretty well communicated. So nobody should be surprised it gets used for some other (legal) purpose than was originally intended.
- nijave 7mo agoYes. You had to enable AR scans, follow the prompts that tried to ensure they were quality (although lots of people just scanned the ground), then click a big green upload button. When completed, you were compensated with in-game items. I think it was quite obvious they were harvesting data although lesser technical players maybe weren't. What's less obvious is the fact they record all your location data for who-knows-what purposes.
- rvnx 8mo agoLooks like teenagers are going to have fun playing Pokemon Go, and now have faster food deliveries. It's useful to map the world, this is what Google / Baidu / Yandex Maps are doing too.
- johannes1234321 8mo agoIt is indeed useful. The question is how one stands on the monopolistic collection by a commercial entity. I personally don't mind to share GPS traces and other data with i.e. open streetmap, as I directly benefit from the data as well and it's more or less equal between different entities. I try not to give too much to Google and similar companies as this increases their competitive advantage, while my benefit is small.
- serf 8mo agowasnt this sort of obvious to anyone familiar with Niantic?
- DANmode 8mo ago“What’s Niantic?” looks back down at phone
- Aurornis 8mo agoMy friend plays Pokémon Go for hours every day while walking his dog. I asked him about this and now we’re both confused. The in game scanning is only for major landmarks in the game. Even in his dense city these landmarks are few and far between. The world model would only have sparse information in the area immediately surrounding these landmarks. I don’t know if there’s much substance to the delivery robot story. This could be a journalist trying to make the story relatable.
- tim333 7mo agoI was thinking the 'scan a pokestop' data would be very patchy but I guess they also have images from people catching pokemon in AR mode?
- RC_ITR 8mo agoI'm not positive this was a secret (See: Reddit post about it from 2018): https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/8i7byi/pokemon_go_players_will_help_create_a_3d_map_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSilphRoad/comments/8i7byi/pokemo...
- Frieren 8mo agoBig corporations have found the way to make us work for free in their own terms. The balance of power between the working class and capital is totally broken. And for me it is not just the lack of transparency. It is the power balance. I should not need to work for free, give my data, and god knows what to play a game. I should not be living knowing that I am being exploited at each interaction with software. Transparency is good, but not enough. "Click here to accept" and thousands of lines of legalese do not create a fair society.
- gjsman-1000 8mo ago> I should not need to work for free, give my data, and god knows what to play a game. The game is free, with doing so being the price. If you don't like that price, you can always pay $80 for a traditional Pokemon game. As such, I don't get the handwringing. There is no such thing as a free lunch and never will be.
- ses1984 8mo agoIs there an $80 Pokémon game where walking outside is a core mechanic and that facilitates interaction with a huge network of users?
- Brainspackle 8mo agoTake a walk while you play your switch
- collingreen 8mo ago"We've got pokemon go at home!"
- gs17 8mo agoA long time ago they had the games that came with a "Pokéwalker", which was a pedometer that acted as a sort of mini-game, but that's the closest they got to a mainstream game where you have to get off the couch. It almost meets your specification (well, did, I'm sure the internet part is offline so you're not connected anymore), but it's obviously not exactly what you meant.
- BoorishBears 8mo agoI don't think this is the worst thing trained. Niantic builds massive geospatial models that can localize and reconstruct views: https://www.nianticspatial.com/ https://www.nianticspatial.com/ Extremely detailed mappings of CONUS with spatial intelligence already built around it, and we let the company get sold to Saudi government last year.
- knowitnone3 8mo ago[dead]
- Brosper 8mo agoI think that only the author of this post didn't know that. Everybody know that Niantic is a big data company.
- ragebol 8mo agoEveryone in a very specific bubble
- jsbisviewtiful 8mo agoEven without looking it up to know for sure it was pretty obvious and could be inferred by anyone playing the game. Especially the scanning, which was painfully obvious to be a data collection method.
- DANmode 7mo ago> it was pretty obvious and could be inferred by anyone playing the game. Never work with the general public. Your perception of normie understanding of tech is wildly broken.
- tim333 8mo agoI didn't know, although I play Pokemon Go and the Wikipedia page for them doesn't say big data although it mentions "...been developing for years: the Niantic Real World Platform." as mentioned in the article although it sounds a bit of a work in progress. They make a lot of money as a games company.
- atemerev 8mo agoPizza delivery robot, or a live grenade delivery robot, depending on the country and the dataset buyer.
- ohyoutravel 8mo agoI knew, or strongly assumed, and think it’s a great dynamic.
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- FrustratedMonky 8mo agoThose pokestop scans are trash. I can't believe they will get enough detailed information out of them to allow navigation by robots.
- KaiserPro 8mo agoNiantic are a number of people who are doing this. Its not that clear from the article, but niantic spatial are using the images captured from users to create a 3d model of "THE WORLD" or where people play pokemon go. They have then fed that data into a more modern version of colmap (https://github.com/colmap/colmap https://github.com/colmap/colmap) to create a point cloud. Then the engineering to make sure that point cloud is aligned accurately and automatically. Once you have that point cloud aligned to the world, all you need is another image with some overlapping feature. Using simple trigonometry you can work out where the camera is from one picture This is largely trivial to do for a few 100 sqaure meters. the hard part is doing it fast in at the city scale. Extracting a few thousand features from an image and then matching them against >billion other points is hard to do quickly, without some optimisations. The thing that is not mentioned here is that data freshness is actually more important. Building change (advertising hoardings, paint jobs, logo changes, building remodelled etc) so the data goes stale. Its actually not that expensive anymore to just send your own people to scan areas. (A number of startups pre 2020 did it, mapillary provides a platform for it, although now owned by facebook) The robots will be feeding that data back in to the map. the special sauce is updating the map without infringing patents, and doing it efficiently.
- 5- 8mo agosee this 2007 talk: https://www.ted.com/talks/blaise_aguera_y_arcas_how_photosynth_can_connect_the_world_s_images https://www.ted.com/talks/blaise_aguera_y_arcas_how_photosyn... i remember this being available in google maps in 2008 or so. fun technology!
- deleted 8mo ago[deleted]
- vel0city 8mo agoI remember playing with Photosynth on my Windows Phone. Good times.
- sublinear 8mo agoI don't think anyone actually cares about this in principle. This is more of a product and marketing problem than a legal or moral one. What people dislike is noticing the strings attached so distastefully. I can't think of any fads or pastimes where there aren't any, but the benefits of the activity offered should outweigh the cost. In that sense, Pokémon Go was a bad deal. I still don't get what was ever in it for the player.
- JakeStone 8mo agoNot unexpected, but it looks the oldest kid, Ingress, is being ignored again. IIRC, there was some badge you could earn by doing a number of those scans. Or is Ingress even still around?
- pchew 8mo agoThey were(are?) the same backend, same world maps, same POIs. Maybe they diversified at some point but at launch the Gyms were 1 to 1 with Ingress portals in my city. It is interesting that the 'non-gaming' division of the split kept Ingress.
- rigrassm 8mo agoThe OG was alive and kicking when I hopped back on a year and a half ago. No where near what it used to have as far as active players go but in my big city area there are still lots of active OGs and new people hopping on.
- Lockal 7mo agoWhen I played it (it was invitation-based, but it was not difficult to get an invitation), there was nothing related to photo. Pure GPS-based navigation (including "helicopter" players). No idea if it includes AR features now.
- poontunia 8mo ago[dead]
- elictronic 8mo agoMillions of software devs unknowingly trained LLMs to start replacing their jobs. PUSH your code to fit to find out more.
- Molitor5901 8mo agoDoes anyone remember Ingress? I always wondered what it was we were training by playing that game.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 8mo agoConsidering that Niantic was behind both ingress and pokemon go, the answer is all of this.
- rigrassm 8mo agoNiantic has been doing this for a long time starting with Ingress. I've maybe done a handful of scans in PoGo but as others have mentioned the rewards were just not worth the trouble. The rewards for doing it in Ingress were much better (at least back in the day). I'm more split on my feelings towards it these days given our current political/social climate but part of me still thinks the idea of mapping the real world in great detail is a worthy endeavor if it can be done "right". I'd probably be more inclined to support it if they would release the data or make it publicly accessible for others to use but it being tied to the whims of a corporation (even one that's been less shitty than most) makes it hard to get behind.
- skeledrew 7mo ago> if they would release the data or make it publicly accessible for others HAH! Deep dreams.
- rigrassm 7mo ago> HAH! Deep dreams. More of an inner reflection on what it would take for me to get behind it hence the last part of that statement lol. >> but it being tied to the whims of a corporation (even one that's been less shitty than most) makes it hard to get behind I wish I could elevate that scenario to the level of a dream lol
- overfeed 7mo ago> I'd probably be more inclined to support it if they would release the data or make it publicly accessible for others to use Open Street Maps does exactly this, and could do with more volunteers and/or donations.
- rigrassm 7mo ago> Open Street Maps does exactly this, and could do with more volunteers and/or donations. I've used osm in the past but haven't heard of them supporting AR style mapping submissions of points of interest, do you have any links to resources on that?
- gradientsrneat 7mo agoNintendo's brand means nothing.
- bethekidyouwant 7mo agoPretty sure you take a video when you’re doing this task so the images are extra extracted from the video?
- RobRivera 7mo agoLmao - well done Niantic
- motbus3 7mo agoI did not see that coming back then. But now, I think, how did I not see that coming?
- driftnode 7mo ago[dead]