5 ms·

So much of practical CS is abiding by standards created by solo programmers in the past. My university frowned on any industry-related classes (i.e. teaching s

So much of practical CS is abiding by standards created by solo programmers in the past. My university frowned on any industry-related classes (i.e. teaching software engineering tools vs. theoretical CS), but I was fortunate enough to know a passionate grad student who created a 1-credit seminar course on this exact topic. This course covered CLIs/git/Unix/shell/IDEs/vim/emacs/regex/etc. and, although I had experience with Linux/git already, was invaluable to my early education (and adoption of Vim!). It makes sense that this isn't a core topic, as a CS education should be as pure as possible, but when you're learning/building, you're forced to live within an operating system and architecture that are built on decades of trade-offs and technical debt.

eru 7mo ago
> It makes sense that this isn't a core topic, as a CS education should be as pure as possible, [...] I don't think that's a good goal. Otherwise, why let you near a computer at all, and not restrict you to chalk and blackboards?
- ratorx 7mo ago
  Pure CS is not necessarily equivalent to pure maths. For the “science” bit of CS, you do need to do the equivalent of experiments (for more applied topics). For example, a physics degree is expected to have experiments. You are not required, expected (and possibly do not want) to know the tools required to professionally build a bridge because you did courses on mechanics. But you might do an experiment on the structural integrity and properties of small structures. Whether this is a good split is an entirely different question.
kgwxd 7mo ago
If you've made it that far in life without learning how to use a screwdriver, engineering would be a bad choice of major. And paying insane amounts of money for someone to explain how to use one would be an even poorer choice.
- ferguess_k 7mo ago
  Same reason I always wonder whether I should go for an electrician/mechanic/avion mechanic education if I'm laid off (and cannot find a job). I'm really not a handyman -- quite the opposite -- it took me and my father 30 minutes to change the car battery last time -- and most of the time was spent on pushing a component dropped to the bottom out of the car. I used to think that more practices bring some sort of linear growth of the skill in the beginning, but now I tend to believe that for certain people (who are not suitable for the trade), the beginning is totally random -- I could practice 100 times and fail 100 tiles randomly, without really learning anything -- because there are an unlimited number of ways to do one thing, theoretically. Software suits me way more. Soldering is also OK albeit more confusing. Unfortunately there is no trade that primarily deals with microcontrollers, except in military/defense.
- randusername 7mo ago
  It was amazing to me how many people I met in college that pursued majors they didn't even like. It was even more sad when it was clear they or their parents had fallen in love with the idea of a career path and not the realities of it. Lots of my engineering cohort landed in sales because they didn't like building or fixing things. I guess that's a win for them, but I always felt nauseated that practical kids might be cut from the program instead of the book-smart but uninterested ones.
  - lokar 7mo ago
    I asked my CS peers why they were doing that major since they clearly disliked programming and theory. They all said they would either be a consultant or a manager.
    - aleph_minus_one 7mo ago
      > They all said they would either be a consultant or a manager. To be a good consultant, one must be exceptional in the area in which one consults. Similarly: if they actually want to become a manager, why don't they study business administration instead. And because lots of people want to become managers: why don't they hang all day and night about textbooks and texts about economic topics and analyze reportings of companies or business case studies?
torben-friis 7mo ago
Universities consider themselves pure and isolated from lowly industry. Industry demands specifically university degrees to gatekeep positions. And then we leave teenagers to figure out the puzzle by themselves. I think it's a disservice to the youth.
- someprick 7mo ago
  Universities produce research, and students; Students produce industry, and the body politic; Industry and polity produce university funding. A cycle I like to call, the "ring-bugger." I'm not saying it's right, or acceptable, or particularly moral… But I agree that by obscuring the facts, we only serve to confound the decent and good-willed of our students. Edit: derp.
- coldpie 7mo ago
  Yeah, I got duped by this. Did a CS degree because that's what you're "supposed" to do to get a programming job, and it was almost all theoretical junk I had no interest in. I hated it. I think I learned useful things in like, two of my classes. I knew more about programming than all but one of my instructors. It was awful and going through that degree program is one of the biggest regrets in my life. But hey, I get to stick "CS Degree from University" as the very last line on my resumes, I guess. Woo.
  - slfnflctd 7mo ago
    I was directly told by senior staff at a large org I worked for that I'd be eligible for a managerial position-- the only thing I was missing was a degree. Unfortunately, getting a degree while working full time for the income I needed was impossible for me at the time. My entire career would've been different if I had that "very last line on my resumes" and I'd be better off financially. I just couldn't pull it off. I hope yours pays you back eventually, it seems like you worked hard to get it.
    - coldpie 7mo ago
      That sucks and is super unfair. For my career path specifically I don't think it has made a difference. I've only had two software jobs in my 17 year career, the first definitely didn't need a degree and I think my current one would've let me in without a degree as I was referred by an employee. I doubt my next job will still be in software, so I'll probably have gotten largely nothing out of the time & money I blew on getting that useless degree.
loughnane 7mo ago
Sounds like MIT's missing semester https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46273762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46273762
ErroneousBosh 7mo ago
> So much of practical CS is abiding by standards created by solo programmers in the past. I wonder if this shows up in other disciplines? Do surgeons do this? I'm thinking in particular of the bit in Richard Heller's book M * A * S * H (you're probably more familiar with the TV series) where one of the old hands is reviewing the Young And Enthusiastic Newbie's work, and says something like "Your work is absolutely perfect and it's the neatest job I've ever seen, but you're going to kill a patient doing that because it took you two hours and some of these kids don't have two hours".
godelski 7mo ago
> This course covered CLIs/git/Unix/shell/IDEs/vim/emacs/regex/etc. Fwiw I just graduated grad school and our lower division courses taught most of this stuff, though not as the main subject. Most upper division classes required you to submit your git repo. Most of this was fairly rudimentary but it existed. Though we didn't cover vim/emacs and I'd argue shell and bash were very lacking. That said, several of us grad students and a few professors lived in the terminal. The students that wanted to learn this stuff frequented our offices, even outside office hours. I can certainly say every single one of those students was consistently at the top of the class (but not the only ones). The students who lived in the terminal but didn't frequent office hours tended to do well in class but honestly I think several were bored do didn't get straight A's but I could generally tell they knew more than most. Though I'm biased. I think more people should live in the shell

eru 7mo ago

> It makes sense that this isn't a core topic, as a CS education should be as pure as possible, [...] I don't think that's a good goal. Otherwise, why let you near a computer at all, and not restrict you to chalk and blackboards?

ratorx 7mo ago
Pure CS is not necessarily equivalent to pure maths. For the “science” bit of CS, you do need to do the equivalent of experiments (for more applied topics). For example, a physics degree is expected to have experiments. You are not required, expected (and possibly do not want) to know the tools required to professionally build a bridge because you did courses on mechanics. But you might do an experiment on the structural integrity and properties of small structures. Whether this is a good split is an entirely different question.

kgwxd 7mo ago

If you've made it that far in life without learning how to use a screwdriver, engineering would be a bad choice of major. And paying insane amounts of money for someone to explain how to use one would be an even poorer choice.

ferguess_k 7mo ago
Same reason I always wonder whether I should go for an electrician/mechanic/avion mechanic education if I'm laid off (and cannot find a job). I'm really not a handyman -- quite the opposite -- it took me and my father 30 minutes to change the car battery last time -- and most of the time was spent on pushing a component dropped to the bottom out of the car. I used to think that more practices bring some sort of linear growth of the skill in the beginning, but now I tend to believe that for certain people (who are not suitable for the trade), the beginning is totally random -- I could practice 100 times and fail 100 tiles randomly, without really learning anything -- because there are an unlimited number of ways to do one thing, theoretically. Software suits me way more. Soldering is also OK albeit more confusing. Unfortunately there is no trade that primarily deals with microcontrollers, except in military/defense.
randusername 7mo ago
It was amazing to me how many people I met in college that pursued majors they didn't even like. It was even more sad when it was clear they or their parents had fallen in love with the idea of a career path and not the realities of it. Lots of my engineering cohort landed in sales because they didn't like building or fixing things. I guess that's a win for them, but I always felt nauseated that practical kids might be cut from the program instead of the book-smart but uninterested ones.
- lokar 7mo ago
  I asked my CS peers why they were doing that major since they clearly disliked programming and theory. They all said they would either be a consultant or a manager.
  - aleph_minus_one 7mo ago
    > They all said they would either be a consultant or a manager. To be a good consultant, one must be exceptional in the area in which one consults. Similarly: if they actually want to become a manager, why don't they study business administration instead. And because lots of people want to become managers: why don't they hang all day and night about textbooks and texts about economic topics and analyze reportings of companies or business case studies?

torben-friis 7mo ago

Universities consider themselves pure and isolated from lowly industry. Industry demands specifically university degrees to gatekeep positions. And then we leave teenagers to figure out the puzzle by themselves. I think it's a disservice to the youth.

someprick 7mo ago
Universities produce research, and students; Students produce industry, and the body politic; Industry and polity produce university funding. A cycle I like to call, the "ring-bugger." I'm not saying it's right, or acceptable, or particularly moral… But I agree that by obscuring the facts, we only serve to confound the decent and good-willed of our students. Edit: derp.
coldpie 7mo ago
Yeah, I got duped by this. Did a CS degree because that's what you're "supposed" to do to get a programming job, and it was almost all theoretical junk I had no interest in. I hated it. I think I learned useful things in like, two of my classes. I knew more about programming than all but one of my instructors. It was awful and going through that degree program is one of the biggest regrets in my life. But hey, I get to stick "CS Degree from University" as the very last line on my resumes, I guess. Woo.
- slfnflctd 7mo ago
  I was directly told by senior staff at a large org I worked for that I'd be eligible for a managerial position-- the only thing I was missing was a degree. Unfortunately, getting a degree while working full time for the income I needed was impossible for me at the time. My entire career would've been different if I had that "very last line on my resumes" and I'd be better off financially. I just couldn't pull it off. I hope yours pays you back eventually, it seems like you worked hard to get it.
  - coldpie 7mo ago
    That sucks and is super unfair. For my career path specifically I don't think it has made a difference. I've only had two software jobs in my 17 year career, the first definitely didn't need a degree and I think my current one would've let me in without a degree as I was referred by an employee. I doubt my next job will still be in software, so I'll probably have gotten largely nothing out of the time & money I blew on getting that useless degree.

loughnane 7mo ago

Sounds like MIT's missing semester https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46273762 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46273762

ErroneousBosh 7mo ago

> So much of practical CS is abiding by standards created by solo programmers in the past. I wonder if this shows up in other disciplines? Do surgeons do this? I'm thinking in particular of the bit in Richard Heller's book M * A * S * H (you're probably more familiar with the TV series) where one of the old hands is reviewing the Young And Enthusiastic Newbie's work, and says something like "Your work is absolutely perfect and it's the neatest job I've ever seen, but you're going to kill a patient doing that because it took you two hours and some of these kids don't have two hours".

godelski 7mo ago

> This course covered CLIs/git/Unix/shell/IDEs/vim/emacs/regex/etc. Fwiw I just graduated grad school and our lower division courses taught most of this stuff, though not as the main subject. Most upper division classes required you to submit your git repo. Most of this was fairly rudimentary but it existed. Though we didn't cover vim/emacs and I'd argue shell and bash were very lacking. That said, several of us grad students and a few professors lived in the terminal. The students that wanted to learn this stuff frequented our offices, even outside office hours. I can certainly say every single one of those students was consistently at the top of the class (but not the only ones). The students who lived in the terminal but didn't frequent office hours tended to do well in class but honestly I think several were bored do didn't get straight A's but I could generally tell they knew more than most. Though I'm biased. I think more people should live in the shell