7 ms·

I don't know Apple's endgame for the Fn/Globe key–or if Apple does

143 points by tambourine_man 7mo ago

_doctor_love 7mo ago
The button is now the shortcut for voice dictation. At the moment, apps like Wisprflow or OpenWhispr are using it as their main shortcut, and I’m sure it’s just a matter of time before Apple integrates it as the default for Siri.
- vismit2000 7mo ago
  Also https://whisperanywhere.app https://whisperanywhere.app
- xbryanx 7mo ago
  Agreed, but my biggest problem with this, is that most external keyboards don't really have an equivalent (at least in the some location). So while I have Fn mapped to my speech to text tool (Hex), I have to figure out something else when I'm at my desktop keyboard.
MFHava 7mo ago
> Most crucially, both keyboards introduced a new tenant: Control (⌃). This was modifier key number four, and to this day, I don’t fully understand why ⌘ wasn’t repurposed here Because then we would have ended up with the same mess that is Windows (and Linux for that matter) when it comes to ^C being ambiguous...
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
- estimator7292 7mo ago
  At least it's the same on all applications across the entire OS. I'd rather have it be ambiguous than change randomly
  - brigandish 7mo ago
    It doesn't change randomly. There are zero apps where Apple+C becomes Ctrl+C, for example. Same keys across the whole OS for cut, copy, paste; select, find; undo/redo; fullscreen, zoom; print… the list goes on.
- kccqzy 7mo ago
  The article states: > The Control key is used with terminal-emulation programs for control-key sequences. For all other applications, it is reserved for end-user-defined shortcut key sequences using a macro-key facility. I find that a good reason. It's prioritizing the experience of terminal emulation programs. Control-C means SIGINT. And also in Cocoa text controls, many Emacs keybindings with Control are available: C-a, C-e, C-k, C-b, C-f, etc. (And it's very easy to add Emacs keybindings with the Meta key too: it's a somewhat obscure functionality but Apple never broke it. I have configured my computer with M-f and M-b for example.)
  - bsimpson 7mo ago
    In the Classic Mac days, control really was just used for custom shortcuts. It may have just been lack of user education, but I don't think the ctrl-a/e/etc commands to move the cursor came until they rebased onto UNIX/NeXT.
- kccqzy 7mo ago
  Why is Control-C ambiguous? Oh wait, you guys use Control-C for copy, but you have forgotten that both Windows and Linux support Control-Insert for copy. That's what I use.
  - comex 7mo ago
    That would not be a good approach on Macs where most users are using reduced/laptop keyboards that have no Insert key. In this respect, Apple got pretty lucky. Most users were not using reduced keyboards in 1987 when they originally decided to add the Control key separate from Command. Plus, Mac OS didn't even have a native terminal at the time; I assume there were terminal emulators for networking/serial use but I can't imagine that was top-of-mind for Apple either. Regardless, Cmd-C is definitely a more convenient shortcut than Control-Insert, even if you do have the keys for the latter.
    - Someone 7mo ago
      > Mac OS didn't even have a native terminal at the time; I assume there were terminal emulators for networking/serial use but I can't imagine that was top-of-mind for Apple either. I think it was in their mind. The manual for the keyboard (yes, keyboards had manuals back then) says the keyboard has “special keys that work in applications running in alternative operating systems” (https://www.cvxmelody.net/Apple%20Extended%20Keyboard%20II%20Owner's%20Guide.pdf https://www.cvxmelody.net/Apple%20Extended%20Keyboard%20II%2...)
    - kccqzy 7mo ago
      I agree with you about Cmd-C being more convenient but that’s besides the point. My point was that on all three operating systems Ctrl-C has an unambiguous feature: send SIGINT. It is more important to have SIGINT be consistent than have copy be consistent. Accidentally sending SIGINT to a job that has been running for an hour? That hour of work may now be gone. This is a deliberate action that should not be a mistake. Copying is not that? Win+C on Windows doesn’t do any destructive actions.
  - hug 7mo ago
    Not using the combination for one of its ambiguous purposes does not strip it of ambiguity, you've just trained yourself to avoid those circumstances. That, of course, is one of the pain points that the article addresses: Training yourself to do so is additional cognitive load that never should have been necessary in the first place. I flip between macOS and Linux and, occasionally, Windows. On one of my laptops, insert is also a Fn switch away, so I have to either remember that this machine needs Ctrl-Fn-F11 specifically when I'm copying from terminal. On another keyboard I have the same problem, but insert is mapped to a different key entirely, so it is ctrl-fn-equals, and fn is on the opposite side of the keyboard from ctrl. Contort my fingers in which way on which keyboard? Mental load and annoyance I don't need.
mrkpdl 7mo ago
Add to this that the Apple IIe had two keys with the Apple logo on them. One just an outline ‘open Apple’ and one a silhouette ‘closed Apple’. These two keys did different things to each other!
- js2 7mo ago
  The open and closed apple keys first appeared on the Apple ///, initially next to each other on the left of the spacebar. On the Apple /// plus, the closed apple then moved to the right of the keyboard, which is what the Apple IIe inherited. The closed apple key then appeared on the Lisa keyboard alongside an option key (both on the left of the spacebar), but the Lisa's closed Apple key acted like and is what became the Mac's command key. https://www.nightfallcrew.com/09/12/2014/apple-iii-apple/ https://www.nightfallcrew.com/09/12/2014/apple-iii-apple/ https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Computers/Apple%20III/Apple%20III%20plus/Photos/Apple%20III%20plus%20-%20Chassis%20off.jpg https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20P... https://vintagecomputer.net/apple/lisa/apple_lisa_A6S0200_keyboard.jpg https://vintagecomputer.net/apple/lisa/apple_lisa_A6S0200_ke...
  - mrkpdl 7mo ago
    Great info!
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
koinedad 7mo ago
Yeah my least favorite key since the globe was added. Randomly opens emoji keyboard on me
- thenthenthen 7mo ago
  I love this key, I use it to switch languages and its a godsend!
rgoulter 7mo ago
While this is a problem for the default user experience, I think if you're an enthusiast there's less of a problem because you can get an external keyboard you like. Laptop keyboards will always be disliked by someone: the standard keyboard layout is awful, and dealing with this either involves trying to stick to the conventional design (wherein different people will dislike different changes); whereas a good keyboard design is going to be so far from the standard keyboard that laptops aren't going to do that. (People will quibble about where to put the arrow keys or however many modifier keys there are or that caps lock is badly placed.. but the most glaring issue is that the spacebar doesn't need to be over 6x the size of other keys). It's a problem if the OS is inconsistent/unclear about what scan codes are required to do things.
- hinkley 7mo ago
  I have an external keyboard and I keep accidentally hitting the fn key when I mean to hit backspace. And that toggles the keyboard layout if you have more than one.
- tom_ 7mo ago
  My Mac has no keyboard, it's just a metal box that sits on your desk - so an external keyboard is the only option. Nobody told me I had to get any specific type in particular! It looks like you can still use hidutil to remap some other key. This invocation seems to remap the Application key to the fn key: sudo hidutil property --set '{"UserKeyMapping":[{"HIDKeyboardModifierMappingSrc":0x700000065,"HIDKeyboardModifierMappingDst":0xFF00000003}]}' On my keyboard, metakeywise, I then have 2 x Shift, 2 x Ctrl, 2 x Option (marked Alt), 2 x Command (marked Start), 1 x undetectable-to-macOS (marked Fn), and 1 x Fn (got that little Windows context menu logo on it).
  - junk245435254 7mo ago
    Yep, this is what I have in my Bash config, for the external Microsoft Natural Keyboard attached to my Mac: # note: works for e.g. Fn-F (fullscreen), but not Fn-F{1..12} (brightness etc.) alias app2fn+=$'hidutil property --set \'{"UserKeyMapping":[{"HIDKeyboardModifierMappingSrc":0x700000065,"HIDKeyboardModifierMappingDst":0xFF00000003}]}\'' alias app2fn-=$'hidutil property --set \'{"UserKeyMapping":[]}\'' alias app2fn?=$'hidutil property --get "UserKeyMapping"'
perryizgr8 7mo ago
Keyboard shortcuts are truly a mess on mac os. Windows does it much better and with more consistency. That results in third party apps also having sensible shortcuts. Example: Ctrl+G is widely used in code editors for "Goto line". On Windows it makes perfect sense to use because Ctrl+ shortcuts are used for text editing everywhere. But on macos it is out of place, because there Cmd+ is the standard for text editing. But Cmd+G is used for some obscure find feature. So editors fall back to Ctrl+G which is out of place.
- AnonC 7mo ago
  I don’t know why this comment is downvoted, but I don’t agree with this either because the OS (historical) conventions are different, and there may be unintuitive shortcuts on all OSes. What matters is consistency across applications on the same OS. One point on macOS is that it’s very weak on keyboard based navigation and shortcuts for apps by default (compared to Windows). Even Apple doesn’t bother with keyboard based navigation in its own apps. One look at any app “ported” from iOS is enough. Apple hasn’t even spent time to check what the Tab key does in these apps. It’s a shame.
  - deleted 7mo ago
    [deleted]
- kccqzy 7mo ago
  The "goto line" feature on most Mac text editors is Cmd+L. And it's consistent. On the Mac the Control shortcuts are used for text manipulation everywhere and they come from Emacs: C-a, C-e, C-f, C-b, C-k, etc. The Cmd key is not the standard for text editing; it is the standard for all app-specific commands. For example Cmd+I usually makes text italic in a word processor, but in a non-word processor app italic makes no sense, so for example in Finder it means bring up the inspector.
- perilunar 7mo ago
  > Cmd+G is used for some obscure find feature How is find next 'obscure'?
- sheept 7mo ago
AnonC 7mo ago
This article covered many historical aspects I was never aware of. > Suddenly, the globe key on the iPad and the hybrid globe/Fn key on the Mac were equipped with a million Windows-like tasks It seems like Apple has been in a bind to make the iPad a better Mac and the Mac a better iPad while at the same time insisting that the iPad is its own device with its own purpose and that the Mac is its own device with its own purpose. IIRC, it took a long time to bring a keyboard and mouse to the iPad. Despite Apple’s repeated claims that it doesn’t see value in a touchscreen Mac, rumors point to one being launched next year (albeit with limitations). Apple used to be good at cannibalizing its own product lines. But now it seems stuck with the desire to sell more iPads and more Macs without one cannibalizing or destroying another.
- adolph 7mo ago
  > Apple used to be good at cannibalizing its own product lines. Arguably only iPhone from iPod. Lisa to Mac wasn't an organization being "good" so much as corporate infighting ("after Steve Jobs was forced out of the Lisa project by Apple's board of directors, he appropriated the Macintosh project from Jef Raskin") [0]. Low End Mac's "Road Apple" features [1] list out many Apple products that were hobbled in one way or another to prevent a "consumer" product from cannibalizing higher margin "pro" products. After 2012 Apple's pro desktops did encourage cannibalization by being rarely updated corporate vanity/art projects, which like Lisa to Mac isn't an example of being "good" at managing product transitions. A more daring Apple would have freed the Watch from the iPhone in the same way they freed the iPhone from iTunes sync. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lisa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lisa 1. https://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/ https://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/
kdheiwns 7mo ago
Apple just seems to be in a rush to launch half-baked features then keeps them in a weird state of stasis for years. The globe/FN key changes the keyboard layout when tapped, which is very useful since I type in multiple languages, but after a few dozen uses it simply... stops functioning. It's been broken for years. The only way I've found to fix it is to open the command line and killall Dock and killall Finder. But then language switching fails again a few more switches later. Not fixing a feature that has a whole key dedicated to it just shows how careless they've become.
- cyberax 7mo ago
  If you're using multiple layouts, CapsLock is a great option for the switch key.
  - mh2266 7mo ago
    but then how would you press escape?
throw03172019 7mo ago
I love my Fn/Globe key. It fires up Aqua Voice and begins transcribing. My fingers appreciate the break from typing.
ankurdhama 7mo ago
Looking at this IBM pc keyboard image in this article, where all the function keys are on the left, it makes sense that Alt+F4 and other similar shortcut on Windows made sense at that time, but these days function keys being at top row make such keyboard shortcuts unergonomic.
- eviks 7mo ago
  Ignorant backwards compatibility cult in a nutshell: instead of retaining the same muscle memory or, if the keys moved, having a similarly ergonomic combo, the nominal labels are preserved, defeating the original design purpose. Same with ⌃ being a pinky not retained when ⇪ replaced it
  - jedberg 7mo ago
    > Same with ⌃ being a pinky not retained when ⇪ replaced it Any time I get a new computer, one of the very first things that I do is remap Caps Lock to Ctrl for exactly this reason. I literally never use Caps Lock, but my pinky hits it all the time.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
mproud 7mo ago
Any Mac with the globe on the key is Apple Silicon.
joeframbach 7mo ago
Is this where I can complain about command+q? All day every day I use command+tab/tilde/w/a/s, and smack in the middle of that is command q. It's like if automobile manufacturers decided to put a third pedal between the accelerator and the brake that immediately shuts off your car in the middle of the highway. And you can't disable it, instead you can map it to such helpful things like... invert colors.
- pulvinar 7mo ago
  In System Settings > Keyboard Shortcuts > App Shortcuts, add the shortcut: app Safari, name "Quit Safari", command-option-Q. This will leave command-Q doing nothing, yet still allow you to quit. Repeat for other apps.
  - joeframbach 7mo ago
    Nah, I installed karabiner and set up command+q to require a three-second holddown to activate.
  - eviks 7mo ago
    That's a lot of work to do it per app! And remember to do for every new app
    - voltaireodactyl 7mo ago
      FWIW you can do it for “all apps” in one go — I set one up for printing to PDF and it works great
      - eviks 7mo ago
        You can't do that because the design of the whole system is dumb - instead of matching by unique (within the app) universal (=across apps) menu item id like "quit" that's hardcoded into the framework, you must match by menu item displayed name "quit Safari", which is different for every "quit MyNewShinyApp" PS: and sometimes the name string is also dynamic "Navigate to the latest folder named XYZ", so you can't match at all!
bb88 7mo ago
I'm so fucking tired of trying to do a super spock pinch with my keyboard. I've always thought composition of typing various keys in sequence is better than trying to press 4 keys at once, particularly if your left handed or right handed, say. There were "compose" keys that let you type characters to combine other characters -- (not ai) but they weren't forcing the person to super spock pinch the keyboard to get the character they wanted. It was "compose" then "c" then "s" to get the "ç" character. I honestly would like to be able to do the same thing with ctrl-alt-x, eg. where ctrl alt and x are separate key presses.
- bombcar 7mo ago
  Isn't this what sticky keys does? https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/change-keyboard-settings-for-accessibility-mchlae61a6de/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/change-keyboard-set...
- rmunn 7mo ago
  The "compose" key on Linux is one of my favorite things about the Linux keyboard system. You can pick which key is your "compose" key, choosing from about a dozen options. Then just as you describe, you type it in sequence (though on Linux, compose then c then s produces š, because compose then c is the shorthand for the "caron" diacritic: compose, c, g is ǧ, compose, c, h is ȟ, and so on).
- numpad0 7mo ago
  It feels like i18n/l10n status on desktop OS is on a decline. I guess the effect of that is more profound on macOS than on Windows. I came across this[1][2] the other day; the "bug" is that macOS Japanese input prioritize visually similar but unintended characters over ones matching in pronunciation being entered - it's hard to describe, but it's as if keyboard was autocorrecting word to "enterprising" over "entrepreneur" for entry "antreprenewer", just because the former is considered more common than the latter, or something like that. This apparently has been bugging Japanese users for YEARS, with no improvements or recognition. I'm not saying who should prioritize what for whom, just that, I think non-English experience in modern computing environment is rapidly degrading lately, for some reason, unbeknownst to American English speakers. 1: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/256258979 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/256258979 2: https://discussionsjapan.apple.com/thread/256258975 https://discussionsjapan.apple.com/thread/256258975
bombcar 7mo ago
I never noticed the Globe before, and now I know why the emoji keyboard sometimes pops up.
- drcongo 7mo ago
  I'm jealous. I have to press that key about 15 times for varying durations if I want the emoji picker to show.
sbinnee 7mo ago
Wow. 55 images, all carefully prepared and placed, not a single AI-generated. I love the quality of this post. Not to mention, I learned something new and new perspectives.
- pch00 7mo ago
  Came here to say the same thing, what a wonderful post.
- krackers 7mo ago
  This isn't even their tour de force, try https://aresluna.org/frame-of-preference/ https://aresluna.org/frame-of-preference/
em-bee 7mo ago
Twenty-seven years since Microsoft did so, Apple too wanted a Windows-style key that only they could control. i always thought that was the command key, it even used to have an apple logo on it. and i thought it was microsoft that created the windows key because it wanted its own key like apple had. wouldn't you also map the windows key to command when you used such a keyboard on a mac?
- moritz 7mo ago
  That’s all in the article. The author goes into the confusion that it had the Apple logo on it. Win was conceived as a modifier reserved for the OS (not to be used by applications), while command never was. Command is for commands. If you come to the Mac from Win or Linux it often helps to think of command as what ctrl does on those systems. Ctrl on the Mac started as Terminal-Emulator specific modifier— Which to this day is great, because your universal copy shortcut (cmd-c) and interrupt (ctrl-c) are different things. Indeed one would map win to command, but only because you need another key for a modifier that‘s not ctrl or opt/alt, conceptually they are different
  - Someone 7mo ago
    > Ctrl on the Mac started as Terminal-Emulator specific modifier It did, but when starting history with the first Mac, it started as being absent. The Mac initially had shift, command, and option modifiers. Apple introduced control keys (separate left and right ones) because companies writing terminal emulators needed it.
    - js2 7mo ago
      > Apple introduced control keys (separate left and right ones) because companies writing terminal emulators needed it. I'm not sure that's the correct reason. The Apple II/III had the control key from the start. The Mac keyboard originally did not have control (nor escape.) When Apple introduced the external Apple Desktop Bus keyboard designed to be used with both the Apple IIgs and the Mac, it needed the full complement of keys to be used with both systems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#Discontinued_keyboards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#Discontinued_k...
astrostl 7mo ago
Huge enabler for the mini keyboards for me: Fn + L/R for Home/End, Fn + U/D for PgUp/PgDn.
eviks 7mo ago
> Most importantly for our conversation, the Fn key was resolved internally inside the keyboard That's the worst part about Fn, limiting user customization and wasting keyboard space. Good that this was partially dialed back, but bad that Apple added another exclusivity barrier breaking external keyboards. > What if Apple at some point decides that Esc means something, and you already used it for something else? You continue to use it for something else? How is it different from any other default shortcut you don't like and change? > It’s just a modifier key. That should be the end game! No lock in, no weird limitations like "cannot map Mission Control to ↑" There is no hope for Apple to make anything good out of it (⌃⌘X is their peak ergonomic design), but at least you'd be able to freely use the key yourself
- jmholla 7mo ago
  > You continue to use it for something else? How is it different from any other default shortcut you don't line and change? The author points out that Apple defaults often don't allow you to reuse them. They talk pretty far in the article about how that can't map globe+H to a different function. So, this theoretical is about them not being able to continue using their combination for what they want at Apple's whims.
  - eviks 7mo ago
    Blocking keybinds is from a different section of the article
- fasola 7mo ago
  > You continue to use it for something else? How is it different from any other default shortcut you don't like and change? It’s different because “you” in this context is the keyboard manufacturer, not the user.
  - eviks 7mo ago
    Oh, that makes more sense, thanks
bsimpson 7mo ago
I was born in the Mac era, but when they still printed the Apple glyph on the Command key. Therefore, I still call it the "Apple key." I also took inspiration from ChromeOS's replacement of Caps with Search (and a popular article from that era about the history of the hyper key), and rebound Caps to be Escape. I hardly ever use the actual escape key (which is handy on a 60 key board, because they that's just the `/~ key). Escape (Caps) by itself is Escape. Esc+A is opens the search (goto file/line/etc. in a text editor). Esc+S is the Command Palette in apps that have one. Very handy to be able to chord keys right next to each other!
- ewoodrich 7mo ago
  > I also took inspiration from ChromeOS's replacement of Caps with Search Hah, I do the exact same thing for the exact same reason on every new Mac/Win/Linux machine for almost a decade now. Karabiner on MacOS and PowerToys for Windows. It’s always nice when it’s supported directly in Linux distros but sometimes have to remap it with config files or a helper tool. On my MacBook I use Alfred now for search and Win11Debloat for Windows which ensures apps load near instantly when typing.
  - bsimpson 7mo ago
    I started out using Karabiner, but then when Apple added support to natively rebind Escape, it made that an easy choice. Works great in Sublime. Have this request open for Ghostty: https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty/discussions/10499 https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty/discussions/10499 On Linux, there's xremap. It lets you remap key chords on a per-app basis. I'm using it to use Apple-style Command shortcuts with Chrome for Linux: https://github.com/appsforartists/device-config/blob/master/lib/keybindings.nix https://github.com/appsforartists/device-config/blob/master/...
bombela 7mo ago
For the Linux crowd what's your custom mapping? For me its capslock as ctrl, super (windows key) for window management, altgr for layers, right side ctrl as compose key.
- SSLy 7mo ago
  I have caps as control on Linux and Windows (on macOS it's command instead), rest is good choices.
- em-bee 7mo ago
  i have caps as compose. i like to have both alt and control keys to work the same way as it was always the case on US keyboards.
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
TrianguloY 7mo ago
As a forced mac user at work (always used windows or Linux) the number of modifier keys is really confusing. On pc you use control almost for anything, alt for very special cases (when usually control is already taken) and the windows/meta key for os-related things. On mac a lot of shortcuts use command, but some use control, and there are a bunch that use option without a real reason why, my memory really suffers from this. The only common thing between the two is that the fn key is only used for the special modifiers under F1-F12. I was given a magic keyboard, and my plan was to replace it with a standard one, but then I found about the keys mapping from Karabiner, and the fn key is exactly at the control position...so I started remapping. Now, I can do almost everything with fn+key. Fn+c=command+c, fn+s=control+s and so on.
endospore 7mo ago
[dead]
evek 7mo ago
Karabiner is the only way I managed to sync window tiling shortcuts between native Macbook and Logitech keyboard, and even that took a lot of effort due to fn/globe key special treatment.
ksherlock 7mo ago
I'm guessing nobody at Apple wears their WWSJD bracelet anymore, but for everyone else: Back when I [Steve Jurvetson] was a student, I had Steve Jobs over to my house for a fireside chat with the GSB [Stanford Graduate School of Business] High Tech Club. When I asked my childhood hero if he would sign my Apple Extended Keyboard, he looked a little surprised to see Woz’s signature already there, and then he exclaimed, ‘This keyboard represents everything about Apple that I hate. It’s a battleship. Why does it have all these keys? Do you use this F1 key? No.’ And with his car keys he pried it right off. ‘I’m changing the world, one keyboard at a time,’ he concluded in a calmer voice. https://archive.nytimes.com/dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/what-i-learned-from-steve-jobs/ https://archive.nytimes.com/dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/... Personally, I would take an Apple Extended Keyboard (or II ;-) ) over anything they've sold in the past, well, whenever they stopped selling them. (Typed from my Unicomp Model M Mac)
armandososa 7mo ago
offtopic: does anybody know where I can get that gorgeous pixel font from the title?

143 points by tambourine_man 7mo ago

The button is now the shortcut for voice dictation. At the moment, apps like Wisprflow or OpenWhispr are using it as their main shortcut, and I’m sure it’s just a matter of time before Apple integrates it as the default for Siri.

vismit2000 7mo ago
Also https://whisperanywhere.app https://whisperanywhere.app
xbryanx 7mo ago
Agreed, but my biggest problem with this, is that most external keyboards don't really have an equivalent (at least in the some location). So while I have Fn mapped to my speech to text tool (Hex), I have to figure out something else when I'm at my desktop keyboard.

MFHava 7mo ago

> Most crucially, both keyboards introduced a new tenant: Control (⌃). This was modifier key number four, and to this day, I don’t fully understand why ⌘ wasn’t repurposed here Because then we would have ended up with the same mess that is Windows (and Linux for that matter) when it comes to ^C being ambiguous...

deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]
estimator7292 7mo ago
At least it's the same on all applications across the entire OS. I'd rather have it be ambiguous than change randomly
- brigandish 7mo ago
  It doesn't change randomly. There are zero apps where Apple+C becomes Ctrl+C, for example. Same keys across the whole OS for cut, copy, paste; select, find; undo/redo; fullscreen, zoom; print… the list goes on.
kccqzy 7mo ago
The article states: > The Control key is used with terminal-emulation programs for control-key sequences. For all other applications, it is reserved for end-user-defined shortcut key sequences using a macro-key facility. I find that a good reason. It's prioritizing the experience of terminal emulation programs. Control-C means SIGINT. And also in Cocoa text controls, many Emacs keybindings with Control are available: C-a, C-e, C-k, C-b, C-f, etc. (And it's very easy to add Emacs keybindings with the Meta key too: it's a somewhat obscure functionality but Apple never broke it. I have configured my computer with M-f and M-b for example.)
- bsimpson 7mo ago
  In the Classic Mac days, control really was just used for custom shortcuts. It may have just been lack of user education, but I don't think the ctrl-a/e/etc commands to move the cursor came until they rebased onto UNIX/NeXT.
kccqzy 7mo ago
Why is Control-C ambiguous? Oh wait, you guys use Control-C for copy, but you have forgotten that both Windows and Linux support Control-Insert for copy. That's what I use.
- comex 7mo ago
  That would not be a good approach on Macs where most users are using reduced/laptop keyboards that have no Insert key. In this respect, Apple got pretty lucky. Most users were not using reduced keyboards in 1987 when they originally decided to add the Control key separate from Command. Plus, Mac OS didn't even have a native terminal at the time; I assume there were terminal emulators for networking/serial use but I can't imagine that was top-of-mind for Apple either. Regardless, Cmd-C is definitely a more convenient shortcut than Control-Insert, even if you do have the keys for the latter.
  - Someone 7mo ago
    > Mac OS didn't even have a native terminal at the time; I assume there were terminal emulators for networking/serial use but I can't imagine that was top-of-mind for Apple either. I think it was in their mind. The manual for the keyboard (yes, keyboards had manuals back then) says the keyboard has “special keys that work in applications running in alternative operating systems” (https://www.cvxmelody.net/Apple%20Extended%20Keyboard%20II%20Owner's%20Guide.pdf https://www.cvxmelody.net/Apple%20Extended%20Keyboard%20II%2...)
  - kccqzy 7mo ago
    I agree with you about Cmd-C being more convenient but that’s besides the point. My point was that on all three operating systems Ctrl-C has an unambiguous feature: send SIGINT. It is more important to have SIGINT be consistent than have copy be consistent. Accidentally sending SIGINT to a job that has been running for an hour? That hour of work may now be gone. This is a deliberate action that should not be a mistake. Copying is not that? Win+C on Windows doesn’t do any destructive actions.
- hug 7mo ago
  Not using the combination for one of its ambiguous purposes does not strip it of ambiguity, you've just trained yourself to avoid those circumstances. That, of course, is one of the pain points that the article addresses: Training yourself to do so is additional cognitive load that never should have been necessary in the first place. I flip between macOS and Linux and, occasionally, Windows. On one of my laptops, insert is also a Fn switch away, so I have to either remember that this machine needs Ctrl-Fn-F11 specifically when I'm copying from terminal. On another keyboard I have the same problem, but insert is mapped to a different key entirely, so it is ctrl-fn-equals, and fn is on the opposite side of the keyboard from ctrl. Contort my fingers in which way on which keyboard? Mental load and annoyance I don't need.

mrkpdl 7mo ago

Add to this that the Apple IIe had two keys with the Apple logo on them. One just an outline ‘open Apple’ and one a silhouette ‘closed Apple’. These two keys did different things to each other!

js2 7mo ago
The open and closed apple keys first appeared on the Apple ///, initially next to each other on the left of the spacebar. On the Apple /// plus, the closed apple then moved to the right of the keyboard, which is what the Apple IIe inherited. The closed apple key then appeared on the Lisa keyboard alongside an option key (both on the left of the spacebar), but the Lisa's closed Apple key acted like and is what became the Mac's command key. https://www.nightfallcrew.com/09/12/2014/apple-iii-apple/ https://www.nightfallcrew.com/09/12/2014/apple-iii-apple/ https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20Project/Computers/Apple%20III/Apple%20III%20plus/Photos/Apple%20III%20plus%20-%20Chassis%20off.jpg https://mirrors.apple2.org.za/Apple%20II%20Documentation%20P... https://vintagecomputer.net/apple/lisa/apple_lisa_A6S0200_keyboard.jpg https://vintagecomputer.net/apple/lisa/apple_lisa_A6S0200_ke...
- mrkpdl 7mo ago
  Great info!
deleted 7mo ago
[deleted]

koinedad 7mo ago

Yeah my least favorite key since the globe was added. Randomly opens emoji keyboard on me

thenthenthen 7mo ago
I love this key, I use it to switch languages and its a godsend!

rgoulter 7mo ago

While this is a problem for the default user experience, I think if you're an enthusiast there's less of a problem because you can get an external keyboard you like. Laptop keyboards will always be disliked by someone: the standard keyboard layout is awful, and dealing with this either involves trying to stick to the conventional design (wherein different people will dislike different changes); whereas a good keyboard design is going to be so far from the standard keyboard that laptops aren't going to do that. (People will quibble about where to put the arrow keys or however many modifier keys there are or that caps lock is badly placed.. but the most glaring issue is that the spacebar doesn't need to be over 6x the size of other keys). It's a problem if the OS is inconsistent/unclear about what scan codes are required to do things.

hinkley 7mo ago
I have an external keyboard and I keep accidentally hitting the fn key when I mean to hit backspace. And that toggles the keyboard layout if you have more than one.
tom_ 7mo ago
My Mac has no keyboard, it's just a metal box that sits on your desk - so an external keyboard is the only option. Nobody told me I had to get any specific type in particular! It looks like you can still use hidutil to remap some other key. This invocation seems to remap the Application key to the fn key: sudo hidutil property --set '{"UserKeyMapping":[{"HIDKeyboardModifierMappingSrc":0x700000065,"HIDKeyboardModifierMappingDst":0xFF00000003}]}' On my keyboard, metakeywise, I then have 2 x Shift, 2 x Ctrl, 2 x Option (marked Alt), 2 x Command (marked Start), 1 x undetectable-to-macOS (marked Fn), and 1 x Fn (got that little Windows context menu logo on it).
- junk245435254 7mo ago
  Yep, this is what I have in my Bash config, for the external Microsoft Natural Keyboard attached to my Mac: # note: works for e.g. Fn-F (fullscreen), but not Fn-F{1..12} (brightness etc.) alias app2fn+=$'hidutil property --set \'{"UserKeyMapping":[{"HIDKeyboardModifierMappingSrc":0x700000065,"HIDKeyboardModifierMappingDst":0xFF00000003}]}\'' alias app2fn-=$'hidutil property --set \'{"UserKeyMapping":[]}\'' alias app2fn?=$'hidutil property --get "UserKeyMapping"'

perryizgr8 7mo ago

Keyboard shortcuts are truly a mess on mac os. Windows does it much better and with more consistency. That results in third party apps also having sensible shortcuts. Example: Ctrl+G is widely used in code editors for "Goto line". On Windows it makes perfect sense to use because Ctrl+ shortcuts are used for text editing everywhere. But on macos it is out of place, because there Cmd+ is the standard for text editing. But Cmd+G is used for some obscure find feature. So editors fall back to Ctrl+G which is out of place.

AnonC 7mo ago
I don’t know why this comment is downvoted, but I don’t agree with this either because the OS (historical) conventions are different, and there may be unintuitive shortcuts on all OSes. What matters is consistency across applications on the same OS. One point on macOS is that it’s very weak on keyboard based navigation and shortcuts for apps by default (compared to Windows). Even Apple doesn’t bother with keyboard based navigation in its own apps. One look at any app “ported” from iOS is enough. Apple hasn’t even spent time to check what the Tab key does in these apps. It’s a shame.
- deleted 7mo ago
  [deleted]
kccqzy 7mo ago
The "goto line" feature on most Mac text editors is Cmd+L. And it's consistent. On the Mac the Control shortcuts are used for text manipulation everywhere and they come from Emacs: C-a, C-e, C-f, C-b, C-k, etc. The Cmd key is not the standard for text editing; it is the standard for all app-specific commands. For example Cmd+I usually makes text italic in a word processor, but in a non-word processor app italic makes no sense, so for example in Finder it means bring up the inspector.
perilunar 7mo ago
> Cmd+G is used for some obscure find feature How is find next 'obscure'?
sheept 7mo ago

AnonC 7mo ago

This article covered many historical aspects I was never aware of. > Suddenly, the globe key on the iPad and the hybrid globe/Fn key on the Mac were equipped with a million Windows-like tasks It seems like Apple has been in a bind to make the iPad a better Mac and the Mac a better iPad while at the same time insisting that the iPad is its own device with its own purpose and that the Mac is its own device with its own purpose. IIRC, it took a long time to bring a keyboard and mouse to the iPad. Despite Apple’s repeated claims that it doesn’t see value in a touchscreen Mac, rumors point to one being launched next year (albeit with limitations). Apple used to be good at cannibalizing its own product lines. But now it seems stuck with the desire to sell more iPads and more Macs without one cannibalizing or destroying another.

adolph 7mo ago
> Apple used to be good at cannibalizing its own product lines. Arguably only iPhone from iPod. Lisa to Mac wasn't an organization being "good" so much as corporate infighting ("after Steve Jobs was forced out of the Lisa project by Apple's board of directors, he appropriated the Macintosh project from Jef Raskin") [0]. Low End Mac's "Road Apple" features [1] list out many Apple products that were hobbled in one way or another to prevent a "consumer" product from cannibalizing higher margin "pro" products. After 2012 Apple's pro desktops did encourage cannibalization by being rarely updated corporate vanity/art projects, which like Lisa to Mac isn't an example of being "good" at managing product transitions. A more daring Apple would have freed the Watch from the iPhone in the same way they freed the iPhone from iTunes sync. 0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lisa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Lisa 1. https://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/ https://lowendmac.com/2014/road-apples-second-class-macs/

kdheiwns 7mo ago

Apple just seems to be in a rush to launch half-baked features then keeps them in a weird state of stasis for years. The globe/FN key changes the keyboard layout when tapped, which is very useful since I type in multiple languages, but after a few dozen uses it simply... stops functioning. It's been broken for years. The only way I've found to fix it is to open the command line and killall Dock and killall Finder. But then language switching fails again a few more switches later. Not fixing a feature that has a whole key dedicated to it just shows how careless they've become.

cyberax 7mo ago
If you're using multiple layouts, CapsLock is a great option for the switch key.
- mh2266 7mo ago
  but then how would you press escape?

throw03172019 7mo ago

I love my Fn/Globe key. It fires up Aqua Voice and begins transcribing. My fingers appreciate the break from typing.

ankurdhama 7mo ago

Looking at this IBM pc keyboard image in this article, where all the function keys are on the left, it makes sense that Alt+F4 and other similar shortcut on Windows made sense at that time, but these days function keys being at top row make such keyboard shortcuts unergonomic.

eviks 7mo ago
Ignorant backwards compatibility cult in a nutshell: instead of retaining the same muscle memory or, if the keys moved, having a similarly ergonomic combo, the nominal labels are preserved, defeating the original design purpose. Same with ⌃ being a pinky not retained when ⇪ replaced it
- jedberg 7mo ago
  > Same with ⌃ being a pinky not retained when ⇪ replaced it Any time I get a new computer, one of the very first things that I do is remap Caps Lock to Ctrl for exactly this reason. I literally never use Caps Lock, but my pinky hits it all the time.

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

mproud 7mo ago

Any Mac with the globe on the key is Apple Silicon.

joeframbach 7mo ago

Is this where I can complain about command+q? All day every day I use command+tab/tilde/w/a/s, and smack in the middle of that is command q. It's like if automobile manufacturers decided to put a third pedal between the accelerator and the brake that immediately shuts off your car in the middle of the highway. And you can't disable it, instead you can map it to such helpful things like... invert colors.

pulvinar 7mo ago
In System Settings > Keyboard Shortcuts > App Shortcuts, add the shortcut: app Safari, name "Quit Safari", command-option-Q. This will leave command-Q doing nothing, yet still allow you to quit. Repeat for other apps.
- joeframbach 7mo ago
  Nah, I installed karabiner and set up command+q to require a three-second holddown to activate.
- eviks 7mo ago
  That's a lot of work to do it per app! And remember to do for every new app
  - voltaireodactyl 7mo ago
    FWIW you can do it for “all apps” in one go — I set one up for printing to PDF and it works great
    - eviks 7mo ago
      You can't do that because the design of the whole system is dumb - instead of matching by unique (within the app) universal (=across apps) menu item id like "quit" that's hardcoded into the framework, you must match by menu item displayed name "quit Safari", which is different for every "quit MyNewShinyApp" PS: and sometimes the name string is also dynamic "Navigate to the latest folder named XYZ", so you can't match at all!

bb88 7mo ago

I'm so fucking tired of trying to do a super spock pinch with my keyboard. I've always thought composition of typing various keys in sequence is better than trying to press 4 keys at once, particularly if your left handed or right handed, say. There were "compose" keys that let you type characters to combine other characters -- (not ai) but they weren't forcing the person to super spock pinch the keyboard to get the character they wanted. It was "compose" then "c" then "s" to get the "ç" character. I honestly would like to be able to do the same thing with ctrl-alt-x, eg. where ctrl alt and x are separate key presses.

bombcar 7mo ago
Isn't this what sticky keys does? https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/change-keyboard-settings-for-accessibility-mchlae61a6de/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/change-keyboard-set...
rmunn 7mo ago
The "compose" key on Linux is one of my favorite things about the Linux keyboard system. You can pick which key is your "compose" key, choosing from about a dozen options. Then just as you describe, you type it in sequence (though on Linux, compose then c then s produces š, because compose then c is the shorthand for the "caron" diacritic: compose, c, g is ǧ, compose, c, h is ȟ, and so on).
numpad0 7mo ago
It feels like i18n/l10n status on desktop OS is on a decline. I guess the effect of that is more profound on macOS than on Windows. I came across this[1][2] the other day; the "bug" is that macOS Japanese input prioritize visually similar but unintended characters over ones matching in pronunciation being entered - it's hard to describe, but it's as if keyboard was autocorrecting word to "enterprising" over "entrepreneur" for entry "antreprenewer", just because the former is considered more common than the latter, or something like that. This apparently has been bugging Japanese users for YEARS, with no improvements or recognition. I'm not saying who should prioritize what for whom, just that, I think non-English experience in modern computing environment is rapidly degrading lately, for some reason, unbeknownst to American English speakers. 1: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/256258979 https://discussions.apple.com/thread/256258979 2: https://discussionsjapan.apple.com/thread/256258975 https://discussionsjapan.apple.com/thread/256258975

bombcar 7mo ago

I never noticed the Globe before, and now I know why the emoji keyboard sometimes pops up.

drcongo 7mo ago
I'm jealous. I have to press that key about 15 times for varying durations if I want the emoji picker to show.

sbinnee 7mo ago

Wow. 55 images, all carefully prepared and placed, not a single AI-generated. I love the quality of this post. Not to mention, I learned something new and new perspectives.

pch00 7mo ago
Came here to say the same thing, what a wonderful post.
krackers 7mo ago
This isn't even their tour de force, try https://aresluna.org/frame-of-preference/ https://aresluna.org/frame-of-preference/

em-bee 7mo ago

Twenty-seven years since Microsoft did so, Apple too wanted a Windows-style key that only they could control. i always thought that was the command key, it even used to have an apple logo on it. and i thought it was microsoft that created the windows key because it wanted its own key like apple had. wouldn't you also map the windows key to command when you used such a keyboard on a mac?

moritz 7mo ago
That’s all in the article. The author goes into the confusion that it had the Apple logo on it. Win was conceived as a modifier reserved for the OS (not to be used by applications), while command never was. Command is for commands. If you come to the Mac from Win or Linux it often helps to think of command as what ctrl does on those systems. Ctrl on the Mac started as Terminal-Emulator specific modifier— Which to this day is great, because your universal copy shortcut (cmd-c) and interrupt (ctrl-c) are different things. Indeed one would map win to command, but only because you need another key for a modifier that‘s not ctrl or opt/alt, conceptually they are different
- Someone 7mo ago
  > Ctrl on the Mac started as Terminal-Emulator specific modifier It did, but when starting history with the first Mac, it started as being absent. The Mac initially had shift, command, and option modifiers. Apple introduced control keys (separate left and right ones) because companies writing terminal emulators needed it.
  - js2 7mo ago
    > Apple introduced control keys (separate left and right ones) because companies writing terminal emulators needed it. I'm not sure that's the correct reason. The Apple II/III had the control key from the start. The Mac keyboard originally did not have control (nor escape.) When Apple introduced the external Apple Desktop Bus keyboard designed to be used with both the Apple IIgs and the Mac, it needed the full complement of keys to be used with both systems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#Discontinued_keyboards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#Discontinued_k...

astrostl 7mo ago

Huge enabler for the mini keyboards for me: Fn + L/R for Home/End, Fn + U/D for PgUp/PgDn.

eviks 7mo ago

> Most importantly for our conversation, the Fn key was resolved internally inside the keyboard That's the worst part about Fn, limiting user customization and wasting keyboard space. Good that this was partially dialed back, but bad that Apple added another exclusivity barrier breaking external keyboards. > What if Apple at some point decides that Esc means something, and you already used it for something else? You continue to use it for something else? How is it different from any other default shortcut you don't like and change? > It’s just a modifier key. That should be the end game! No lock in, no weird limitations like "cannot map Mission Control to ↑" There is no hope for Apple to make anything good out of it (⌃⌘X is their peak ergonomic design), but at least you'd be able to freely use the key yourself

jmholla 7mo ago
> You continue to use it for something else? How is it different from any other default shortcut you don't line and change? The author points out that Apple defaults often don't allow you to reuse them. They talk pretty far in the article about how that can't map globe+H to a different function. So, this theoretical is about them not being able to continue using their combination for what they want at Apple's whims.
- eviks 7mo ago
  Blocking keybinds is from a different section of the article
fasola 7mo ago
> You continue to use it for something else? How is it different from any other default shortcut you don't like and change? It’s different because “you” in this context is the keyboard manufacturer, not the user.
- eviks 7mo ago
  Oh, that makes more sense, thanks

bsimpson 7mo ago

I was born in the Mac era, but when they still printed the Apple glyph on the Command key. Therefore, I still call it the "Apple key." I also took inspiration from ChromeOS's replacement of Caps with Search (and a popular article from that era about the history of the hyper key), and rebound Caps to be Escape. I hardly ever use the actual escape key (which is handy on a 60 key board, because they that's just the `/~ key). Escape (Caps) by itself is Escape. Esc+A is opens the search (goto file/line/etc. in a text editor). Esc+S is the Command Palette in apps that have one. Very handy to be able to chord keys right next to each other!

ewoodrich 7mo ago
> I also took inspiration from ChromeOS's replacement of Caps with Search Hah, I do the exact same thing for the exact same reason on every new Mac/Win/Linux machine for almost a decade now. Karabiner on MacOS and PowerToys for Windows. It’s always nice when it’s supported directly in Linux distros but sometimes have to remap it with config files or a helper tool. On my MacBook I use Alfred now for search and Win11Debloat for Windows which ensures apps load near instantly when typing.
- bsimpson 7mo ago
  I started out using Karabiner, but then when Apple added support to natively rebind Escape, it made that an easy choice. Works great in Sublime. Have this request open for Ghostty: https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty/discussions/10499 https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty/discussions/10499 On Linux, there's xremap. It lets you remap key chords on a per-app basis. I'm using it to use Apple-style Command shortcuts with Chrome for Linux: https://github.com/appsforartists/device-config/blob/master/lib/keybindings.nix https://github.com/appsforartists/device-config/blob/master/...

bombela 7mo ago

For the Linux crowd what's your custom mapping? For me its capslock as ctrl, super (windows key) for window management, altgr for layers, right side ctrl as compose key.

SSLy 7mo ago
I have caps as control on Linux and Windows (on macOS it's command instead), rest is good choices.
em-bee 7mo ago
i have caps as compose. i like to have both alt and control keys to work the same way as it was always the case on US keyboards.

deleted 7mo ago

[deleted]

TrianguloY 7mo ago

As a forced mac user at work (always used windows or Linux) the number of modifier keys is really confusing. On pc you use control almost for anything, alt for very special cases (when usually control is already taken) and the windows/meta key for os-related things. On mac a lot of shortcuts use command, but some use control, and there are a bunch that use option without a real reason why, my memory really suffers from this. The only common thing between the two is that the fn key is only used for the special modifiers under F1-F12. I was given a magic keyboard, and my plan was to replace it with a standard one, but then I found about the keys mapping from Karabiner, and the fn key is exactly at the control position...so I started remapping. Now, I can do almost everything with fn+key. Fn+c=command+c, fn+s=control+s and so on.

endospore 7mo ago

[dead]

evek 7mo ago

Karabiner is the only way I managed to sync window tiling shortcuts between native Macbook and Logitech keyboard, and even that took a lot of effort due to fn/globe key special treatment.

ksherlock 7mo ago

I'm guessing nobody at Apple wears their WWSJD bracelet anymore, but for everyone else: Back when I [Steve Jurvetson] was a student, I had Steve Jobs over to my house for a fireside chat with the GSB [Stanford Graduate School of Business] High Tech Club. When I asked my childhood hero if he would sign my Apple Extended Keyboard, he looked a little surprised to see Woz’s signature already there, and then he exclaimed, ‘This keyboard represents everything about Apple that I hate. It’s a battleship. Why does it have all these keys? Do you use this F1 key? No.’ And with his car keys he pried it right off. ‘I’m changing the world, one keyboard at a time,’ he concluded in a calmer voice. https://archive.nytimes.com/dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/what-i-learned-from-steve-jobs/ https://archive.nytimes.com/dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/10/06/... Personally, I would take an Apple Extended Keyboard (or II ;-) ) over anything they've sold in the past, well, whenever they stopped selling them. (Typed from my Unicomp Model M Mac)

armandososa 7mo ago

offtopic: does anybody know where I can get that gorgeous pixel font from the title?