6 ms·

> Instinctively, I think morning light is important to our biology for a daily reset I'd bet people would happily trade away the inkling of light they get duri

by jorvi 8mo ago

> Instinctively, I think morning light is important to our biology for a daily reset I'd bet people would happily trade away the inkling of light they get during their winter commute before locking themselves into their office for some extra daylight when they leave that office. Daylight is most enjoyable if you can actually make use of it.

allknowingfrog 8mo ago
Well, I'm not one of those people. I like waking up with the sun and driving to work in the daylight. The idea that DST solves anything absolutely blows my mind. If you want the ability to start your work day earlier and end it earlier, that seems like a worker protection bill that needs to be passed. DST is the kludgiest kludge that ever kludged.
- davidw 8mo ago
  > If you want the ability to start your work day earlier and end it earlier, that seems like a worker protection bill that needs to be passed. I don't think that's very realistic though is it? School times are fixed and that anchors a lot of families to those specific times, and businesses tend to have set hours. Changing the time to give people more light in the evening frees up a bunch of people to enjoy some sunlight without making it a whole fight to have different hours at work.
  - whycome 8mo ago
    School and the workday already awkwardly don't work together. Schools often end an hour or two after the traditional work day. It wouldn't be crazy to have an effective 'DST' via just adjusting the school start/end times -- start at 10am for part of the year dammit.
- alpinisme 8mo ago
  Where I live June sunrise (with DST) is 5:11am and sunset is 8:21pm (a city on the American east coast). I just can’t imagine a majority of people would want 4:11 rising and 7:21 setting.
  - baq 8mo ago
    Clock is a social contract. China has just one time zone and it seems to work fine.
    - michaelt 8mo ago
      The thing about DST is it makes every scheduled event move, all at the same time. It shifts my contracted start time at work, my first meeting, when places start serving lunch, when my kid needs to get to ballet class, when my sportsball club meets, and when the supermarket closes. All at once. Lawmakers changing the time shown on clocks is, I think, a lot easier than society changing the social contract.
      - albert_e 8mo ago
        The equation change a bit when you have distributed teams.
    - Poacher5 8mo ago
      There's a noticeable increase in sleep disorders and related conditions in the far west of the single time zone [0]. I think when it's on the order of a single hour's shift for daylight savings the effects are pretty negligible but they are measurable. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY9mXPcloaM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY9mXPcloaM
    - eloisant 8mo ago
      Not sure how well that works in China, but I like that when I travel I can have a similar schedule compared to home. I wouldn't want to have to learn a different schedule such as getting up at midnight, having lunch at 04:00 then going to bed at 15:00. That would also make jet lag much worse because you wouldn't be able to rely on your watch to know what activity you're supposed to be doing at the time.
    - throw0101a 8mo ago
      > Clock is a social contract. China has just one time zone and it seems to work fine. If it didn't would the government actually care? Most of the population is in the east, in which clock-noon and solar-noon is better matched: * https://www.china-mike.com/china-travel-tips/tourist-maps/china-population-maps/ https://www.china-mike.com/china-travel-tips/tourist-maps/ch... Doubt Beijing listens to the complaints from Lasa (Tibet) much.
- at_compile_time 8mo ago
  >If you want the ability to start your work day earlier and end it earlier, that seems like a worker protection bill that needs to be passed. If that's what passes for aspiration these days then the labour movement truly is dead.
  - abustamam 8mo ago
    It's been dead ever since workers thought 40h work weeks and 2 weeks off a year was a good deal.
- sjkoelle 8mo ago
  yeah im curious if people will end up liking it. sucks from my perspective.
- duskdozer 8mo ago
  It's the obvious real solution that sidesteps all the personal-preference-driven claims on what option is "objectively" better/healthier/whatever, but corporate society isn't ready for it I guess
- Mumps 8mo ago
  Isn't the converse then equally appropriate? Move to DST and if you want the ability to start your day later and end later, [...].
  - allknowingfrog 8mo ago
    I'm proposing that DST is an awkward solution to the problem. You're suggesting that we should use the awkward solution and then also stack another solution on top. Why not cut out the extra step?
stult 8mo ago
Except for people like me who struggle to wake up before dawn. And whether people prefer light after work doesn't change the available scientific evidence which suggests there are significant negative health effects of waking up too early relative to sunrise, but no significant health benefits from having sunlight hours after work. People's preferences in this case are generally only mildly held and typically are not well informed by the science. I suspect if more people were aware of the deleterious health effects, their stated preferences would change.
- hgomersall 8mo ago
  Except for the health benefits of not being killed by tired drivers in the dark late afternoons, which is a thing. Currently it's doubly bad because the clocks changing also cause a spike in deaths.
at_compile_time 8mo ago
The problem of offices is not when we spend time in them but rather that we spend time in them at all. What a banal hell it is we have consented to endure compared to the comforts of our homes or of any space actually designed for the wellness of human beings or even focused work.
pkulak 8mo ago
That's what everyone says. But it turns out people hate spending their morning in darkness for more light at night. Which makes perfect sense: https://washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-saving-time-in-the-70s-people-hated-it/ https://washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-... > the inkling of light they get during their winter commute It's not an inkling. Unless you roll out of bed and instantly onto your commute, you're getting natural sunlight through all your windows for hours every morning. That's exactly when you need it.
- messe 8mo ago
  That has to be latitude dependent. > you're getting natural sunlight through all your windows for hours every morning Hah "hours". Not in Northern Europe you're not. My commute is dark on both sides. If I had to choose which side I'd prefer to be brighter I'd prefer the end of the day rather than feeling like my daylight has been wasted in the office. I shift my schedule in winter to make up for this as best I can.
  - pkulak 8mo ago
    I guess. I'm at 46 degrees and civil twilight at Christmas starts at 7am. I get up at 6:30, so yeah, dead of winter, I spend 30 minutes in darkness. But that's better than 1:30. I guess it kinda hinges on this idea of "wasting" daylight. I don't feel like that. I want the sun to wake me up, and have no problem doing whatever I like when it's dark in the evening. Do people generally go on hikes after work? I go out for drinks. haha
    - messe 8mo ago
      56 degrees here (Denmark, and grew up in Ireland @ 53 degrees). > I guess it kinda hinges on this idea of "wasting" daylight. I don't feel like that. I want the sun to wake me up The problem is that during the darkest parts of winter, even if I postpone my wake up as long as possible, I'm still getting up in the dark if I want to be able to commute into work on time. There's no sunlight waking me up. > Do people generally go on hikes after work? I go out for drinks. haha No, but I still have to do things like walk the dog, do the shopping on the way home. I find it a lot more pleasant starting out that part of day with a bit of sunlight. Also, yes, drinks. This is Northern Europe after all. EDIT to add: Civil twilight in December where I am starts ~07:40, and I also get up around 06:30 (when not dealing with insomnia like tonight).
gwerbin 8mo ago
Yeah I don't agree with this at all. I want the light when I'm getting up in the morning. When I'm coming home from work it's the end of the day: I'm tired, I'm hustling home to do errands or chores or make dinner, I'm probably going to spend that time inside anyway because that's where the things that I need to get done are, and if it it's going to be cold and windy, it's going to be cold and windy in the evening. I much much prefer daylight in the morning and I like when noon is actually noon (+/- depending on longitude). I'm not looking forward to the time change and I'm not looking forward to the sun setting at 9 PM. If it wasn't for that damn 9 AM Monday meeting (ugh) I would just keep my clocks sent to standard time and start work an hour late in the summer.
- dzhiurgis 8mo ago
  > I want the light when I'm getting up in the morning I apologize society is inconveniencing you.
  - gegtik 8mo ago
    interesting, I see his preference is some kind of slavering radical antisocial screed whereas yours is the universal desire of all of society
    - dlev_pika 8mo ago
      Kinda? > In summer 2019, the Province conducted a public engagement on time observance that saw participation from a record 223,000 people, with 93% supporting adopting year-round DST. Similarly, across all industry groups and nearly all occupational groups, support for year-round DST observance was higher than 90%.
- tavavex 8mo ago
  It's weird, my opinion is the exact opposite from yours, but for the same reasons. When it's the morning, I haven't had the time to get tired yet. So I don't care yet, I don't require the sunlight at that time of the day. And it's always a better feeling when there's only a bit of darkness left before sunrise, when the alternative is feeling like the day was wasted as you step outside and it's already night out. Depending on your timing, you may also see the sunrise while commuting to work, which I find enjoyable. In the evening I'm tired, so I want the extra sunlight to cancel that out a bit, and I want it so I have more opportunities to do things after work. No one is going to do anything for fun in the morning, so giving the light to that time period is wasting it. I want it after work, so I can go somewhere, enjoy the extra warmth, just be anywhere besides home and work.
dangus 8mo ago
Time is an arbitrary construct in the sense that the mere lack of arbitrary change in time is a net benefit. I.e., anyone who doesn’t like the change in either direction can just change schedules accordingly for business hours. Whether that means 8-4 or 9-5 or 10-6 is irrelevant. The fact that we would stop altering schedules twice a year is a positive.
- gylterud 8mo ago
  No changing when schools and kindergartens are open. Where I live, kindergarten closes 16:30. So 8–16 it is!
squidgyhead 8mo ago
Going outside for lunch is a great idea.
pajko 8mo ago
Also don't forget losing daylight in summer evenings.
jcarrano 8mo ago
100% agree. I used to watch the sun rise over the river from the train during my commute. It was worth having to wake up when it was still dark.
bayindirh 8mo ago
I'll politely disagree with this. We have moved to permanent DST some years ago, and in December and January I wake up and leave home at darkness. Also, since days are so short, I leave office at dark, too. My body is strongly solar powered. I can't wake up, I can't get up to speed mentally, my brain and body can't work until it sees sunlight. Body's circadian rhythm needs that light, and artificial replacements doesn't cut it, because it's not only light for my body, apparently. This behavior is not dependent on my vitamin levels, either. My body is an avid consumer of B, and I take the whole family and then some as supplements. My energy levels visibly increase when I start to wake up with daylight, regardless of what I take. While many people disagree with me, I'm in this body for more than 40 years now, and I believe I know at least a couple of things about how it works and behaves. So yes, we should start respecting nature more. Optimizing for numbers doesn't cut it.
dec0dedab0de 8mo ago
When I commuted that inkling of light was the only thing that kept me going some days.

by jorvi 8mo ago

allknowingfrog 8mo ago

Well, I'm not one of those people. I like waking up with the sun and driving to work in the daylight. The idea that DST solves anything absolutely blows my mind. If you want the ability to start your work day earlier and end it earlier, that seems like a worker protection bill that needs to be passed. DST is the kludgiest kludge that ever kludged.

davidw 8mo ago
> If you want the ability to start your work day earlier and end it earlier, that seems like a worker protection bill that needs to be passed. I don't think that's very realistic though is it? School times are fixed and that anchors a lot of families to those specific times, and businesses tend to have set hours. Changing the time to give people more light in the evening frees up a bunch of people to enjoy some sunlight without making it a whole fight to have different hours at work.
- whycome 8mo ago
  School and the workday already awkwardly don't work together. Schools often end an hour or two after the traditional work day. It wouldn't be crazy to have an effective 'DST' via just adjusting the school start/end times -- start at 10am for part of the year dammit.
alpinisme 8mo ago
Where I live June sunrise (with DST) is 5:11am and sunset is 8:21pm (a city on the American east coast). I just can’t imagine a majority of people would want 4:11 rising and 7:21 setting.
- baq 8mo ago
  Clock is a social contract. China has just one time zone and it seems to work fine.
  - michaelt 8mo ago
    The thing about DST is it makes every scheduled event move, all at the same time. It shifts my contracted start time at work, my first meeting, when places start serving lunch, when my kid needs to get to ballet class, when my sportsball club meets, and when the supermarket closes. All at once. Lawmakers changing the time shown on clocks is, I think, a lot easier than society changing the social contract.
    - albert_e 8mo ago
      The equation change a bit when you have distributed teams.
  - Poacher5 8mo ago
    There's a noticeable increase in sleep disorders and related conditions in the far west of the single time zone [0]. I think when it's on the order of a single hour's shift for daylight savings the effects are pretty negligible but they are measurable. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY9mXPcloaM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FY9mXPcloaM
  - eloisant 8mo ago
    Not sure how well that works in China, but I like that when I travel I can have a similar schedule compared to home. I wouldn't want to have to learn a different schedule such as getting up at midnight, having lunch at 04:00 then going to bed at 15:00. That would also make jet lag much worse because you wouldn't be able to rely on your watch to know what activity you're supposed to be doing at the time.
  - throw0101a 8mo ago
    > Clock is a social contract. China has just one time zone and it seems to work fine. If it didn't would the government actually care? Most of the population is in the east, in which clock-noon and solar-noon is better matched: * https://www.china-mike.com/china-travel-tips/tourist-maps/china-population-maps/ https://www.china-mike.com/china-travel-tips/tourist-maps/ch... Doubt Beijing listens to the complaints from Lasa (Tibet) much.
at_compile_time 8mo ago
>If you want the ability to start your work day earlier and end it earlier, that seems like a worker protection bill that needs to be passed. If that's what passes for aspiration these days then the labour movement truly is dead.
- abustamam 8mo ago
  It's been dead ever since workers thought 40h work weeks and 2 weeks off a year was a good deal.
sjkoelle 8mo ago
yeah im curious if people will end up liking it. sucks from my perspective.
duskdozer 8mo ago
It's the obvious real solution that sidesteps all the personal-preference-driven claims on what option is "objectively" better/healthier/whatever, but corporate society isn't ready for it I guess
Mumps 8mo ago
Isn't the converse then equally appropriate? Move to DST and if you want the ability to start your day later and end later, [...].
- allknowingfrog 8mo ago
  I'm proposing that DST is an awkward solution to the problem. You're suggesting that we should use the awkward solution and then also stack another solution on top. Why not cut out the extra step?

stult 8mo ago

Except for people like me who struggle to wake up before dawn. And whether people prefer light after work doesn't change the available scientific evidence which suggests there are significant negative health effects of waking up too early relative to sunrise, but no significant health benefits from having sunlight hours after work. People's preferences in this case are generally only mildly held and typically are not well informed by the science. I suspect if more people were aware of the deleterious health effects, their stated preferences would change.

hgomersall 8mo ago
Except for the health benefits of not being killed by tired drivers in the dark late afternoons, which is a thing. Currently it's doubly bad because the clocks changing also cause a spike in deaths.

at_compile_time 8mo ago

The problem of offices is not when we spend time in them but rather that we spend time in them at all. What a banal hell it is we have consented to endure compared to the comforts of our homes or of any space actually designed for the wellness of human beings or even focused work.

pkulak 8mo ago

That's what everyone says. But it turns out people hate spending their morning in darkness for more light at night. Which makes perfect sense: https://washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-daylight-saving-time-in-the-70s-people-hated-it/ https://washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-... > the inkling of light they get during their winter commute It's not an inkling. Unless you roll out of bed and instantly onto your commute, you're getting natural sunlight through all your windows for hours every morning. That's exactly when you need it.

messe 8mo ago
That has to be latitude dependent. > you're getting natural sunlight through all your windows for hours every morning Hah "hours". Not in Northern Europe you're not. My commute is dark on both sides. If I had to choose which side I'd prefer to be brighter I'd prefer the end of the day rather than feeling like my daylight has been wasted in the office. I shift my schedule in winter to make up for this as best I can.
- pkulak 8mo ago
  I guess. I'm at 46 degrees and civil twilight at Christmas starts at 7am. I get up at 6:30, so yeah, dead of winter, I spend 30 minutes in darkness. But that's better than 1:30. I guess it kinda hinges on this idea of "wasting" daylight. I don't feel like that. I want the sun to wake me up, and have no problem doing whatever I like when it's dark in the evening. Do people generally go on hikes after work? I go out for drinks. haha
  - messe 8mo ago
    56 degrees here (Denmark, and grew up in Ireland @ 53 degrees). > I guess it kinda hinges on this idea of "wasting" daylight. I don't feel like that. I want the sun to wake me up The problem is that during the darkest parts of winter, even if I postpone my wake up as long as possible, I'm still getting up in the dark if I want to be able to commute into work on time. There's no sunlight waking me up. > Do people generally go on hikes after work? I go out for drinks. haha No, but I still have to do things like walk the dog, do the shopping on the way home. I find it a lot more pleasant starting out that part of day with a bit of sunlight. Also, yes, drinks. This is Northern Europe after all. EDIT to add: Civil twilight in December where I am starts ~07:40, and I also get up around 06:30 (when not dealing with insomnia like tonight).

gwerbin 8mo ago

Yeah I don't agree with this at all. I want the light when I'm getting up in the morning. When I'm coming home from work it's the end of the day: I'm tired, I'm hustling home to do errands or chores or make dinner, I'm probably going to spend that time inside anyway because that's where the things that I need to get done are, and if it it's going to be cold and windy, it's going to be cold and windy in the evening. I much much prefer daylight in the morning and I like when noon is actually noon (+/- depending on longitude). I'm not looking forward to the time change and I'm not looking forward to the sun setting at 9 PM. If it wasn't for that damn 9 AM Monday meeting (ugh) I would just keep my clocks sent to standard time and start work an hour late in the summer.

dzhiurgis 8mo ago
> I want the light when I'm getting up in the morning I apologize society is inconveniencing you.
- gegtik 8mo ago
  interesting, I see his preference is some kind of slavering radical antisocial screed whereas yours is the universal desire of all of society
  - dlev_pika 8mo ago
    Kinda? > In summer 2019, the Province conducted a public engagement on time observance that saw participation from a record 223,000 people, with 93% supporting adopting year-round DST. Similarly, across all industry groups and nearly all occupational groups, support for year-round DST observance was higher than 90%.
tavavex 8mo ago
It's weird, my opinion is the exact opposite from yours, but for the same reasons. When it's the morning, I haven't had the time to get tired yet. So I don't care yet, I don't require the sunlight at that time of the day. And it's always a better feeling when there's only a bit of darkness left before sunrise, when the alternative is feeling like the day was wasted as you step outside and it's already night out. Depending on your timing, you may also see the sunrise while commuting to work, which I find enjoyable. In the evening I'm tired, so I want the extra sunlight to cancel that out a bit, and I want it so I have more opportunities to do things after work. No one is going to do anything for fun in the morning, so giving the light to that time period is wasting it. I want it after work, so I can go somewhere, enjoy the extra warmth, just be anywhere besides home and work.

dangus 8mo ago

Time is an arbitrary construct in the sense that the mere lack of arbitrary change in time is a net benefit. I.e., anyone who doesn’t like the change in either direction can just change schedules accordingly for business hours. Whether that means 8-4 or 9-5 or 10-6 is irrelevant. The fact that we would stop altering schedules twice a year is a positive.

gylterud 8mo ago
No changing when schools and kindergartens are open. Where I live, kindergarten closes 16:30. So 8–16 it is!

squidgyhead 8mo ago

Going outside for lunch is a great idea.

pajko 8mo ago

Also don't forget losing daylight in summer evenings.

jcarrano 8mo ago

100% agree. I used to watch the sun rise over the river from the train during my commute. It was worth having to wake up when it was still dark.

bayindirh 8mo ago

I'll politely disagree with this. We have moved to permanent DST some years ago, and in December and January I wake up and leave home at darkness. Also, since days are so short, I leave office at dark, too. My body is strongly solar powered. I can't wake up, I can't get up to speed mentally, my brain and body can't work until it sees sunlight. Body's circadian rhythm needs that light, and artificial replacements doesn't cut it, because it's not only light for my body, apparently. This behavior is not dependent on my vitamin levels, either. My body is an avid consumer of B, and I take the whole family and then some as supplements. My energy levels visibly increase when I start to wake up with daylight, regardless of what I take. While many people disagree with me, I'm in this body for more than 40 years now, and I believe I know at least a couple of things about how it works and behaves. So yes, we should start respecting nature more. Optimizing for numbers doesn't cut it.

dec0dedab0de 8mo ago

When I commuted that inkling of light was the only thing that kept me going some days.