14 ms·

This is just developer fantasy. The average consumer doesn't care even one bit. Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Do

by neya 8mo ago

This is just developer fantasy. The average consumer doesn't care even one bit. Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? Go to some developing countries around Asia and you'll be surprised how people prioritise features when buying a phone vs developed ones. The developing countries account for most of the sales of most phone manufacturers. Phones that are like $150-200 sell like hot cakes. This is evident even in the laptop segment. What developers want and what the average consumer wants/needs are two different things. Eg. Framework laptops. Macbook Pro vs Air.

raincole 8mo ago
I don't know why you need to bring developing countries into the discussion. I'm quite sure average users from developed countries don't care that either.
pbasista 8mo ago
No one suggests that open and developers-friendly phones should be expensive.
- tokioyoyo 8mo ago
  A good chunk of cheap hardware is subsidized by ads and data sales.
- neya 8mo ago
  I agree, but they always will be expensive because they are a niche. Same reasoning as phones that focus on one niche (like photo/videographers) always end up being super expensive (eg. Xperia from Sony).
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - qmarchi 8mo ago
    Disclaimer: Niche Xperia User. Not necessarily, the Xperia line of devices is varied, with nice set of tiers: 1 - Flagship $$$$ 5 - Smaller Flagship $$$ 10 - Mainline $$ Ace - $ Sony's problem is that they have garbage marketing teams that don't understand that 99% of people don't look at a spec sheet, they ask the employee at the shop for the best phone, which is gunna be the one that gets the employee the most commission. In Japan, they already have that with Docomo, AU, and Softbank. But they've failed to materialize that strategy outside of here.
- kube-system 8mo ago
  Right, it's the economics of mass production that does that.
scrollop 8mo ago
Other than flip/niche phones, phones appear to have plateaued. IF you offer someone a phone with similar specs to others, yet much, much more private - many would go for that.
- oblio 8mo ago
  How many is many? Fairly sure hardware development is very hard and expensive. Are we talking about 1 million people worldwide (peanuts, will probably not recover the investment) or 50 million worldwide (might be worth it)?
  - regularfry 8mo ago
    I think you're an order of magnitude out. Motorola shipped 36.6 million handsets total across 2024. They seem to have had 33 handset models available in that period, and they were in profit, so the break-even point is presumably somewhere below 1.1M handsets.
    - oblio 8mo ago
      If I'm off for the second group I'm probably also off for the first one. I'd be surprised if a purely privacy focused phone sells more than 200k units per year.
- j_maffe 8mo ago
  If that were true then the Windows phones would've survived. You need the app ecosystem.
RobotToaster 8mo ago
The market for programs like revanced is pretty big, that's why Google is going to remove "sideloading". At which point there will be a large market for an open phone that allows the user to install what they want.
- LtWorf 8mo ago
  As long as the banking apps and such work.
  - coldtea 8mo ago
    Banks shouldn't have custom apps that are not mobile websites, accessible via the mobile browser just as well.
    - actionfromafar 8mo ago
      Apparently there are special auth apps storing things in secure-enclave-ish parts of the OS. Not a great match for websites.
      - cogman10 8mo ago
        No, that's just BS. The web has a secure storage standard and OAuth + MFA is just as secure as anything your bank could cook up in an app. In fact, I'd be shocked if banks did a better job of security in their apps vs what browsers and standard auth flows provide. Banks just like selling the idea that "if it's encrypted, it's secure". But trust me when I say this, bank security across the board absolutely sucks. The company I work with does financial data ingest and... yeah... There's more than a few institutions where we had to pull teeth to get them to send stuff through an encrypted transport (SFTP, for example, they want to just use FTP).
      - coldtea 8mo ago
        The OS/browser could give this capability to web apps via an API.
repelsteeltje 8mo ago
> [..] Phones that are like $150-200 sell like hot cakes. True and all. But there is at least anecdotal evidence the niche for $500 phones marketed as not-google/not-samsung/not-apple/not-chinese is substantial and growing. Here in Europe I'm seeing Fairphones in hands of non-techies, so there seems to be some willingness to pay a premium to move away from big tech.
realusername 8mo ago
For consumers maybe, for countries on the other hand there's a massive push for digital independence right now and this is part of it.
bayindirh 8mo ago
If this translates to longer device retention (if you enable battery changes, a current gen device can easily last a decade), people will care. $200 phone that you can use for 5+ years without handicapping the user will be a much bigger hit. This translates well to the boots paradox. This can change "cheaper is much more expensive in the long run" to "cheaper is a bit more expensive on the long run". This, of course, will not create enough value for the people who doesn't need or appreciate the need for these $200 phones.
- ChrisMarshallNY 8mo ago
  > boots paradox For those that don’t know what they meant, here you go[0]. I’ve always been a fan of Quality, but Quality costs, and people that get rich, generally do so, by selling lots of lower-quality stuff. Hard to compete against. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
  - bloomingeek 8mo ago
    Excellent info and article. I'd not heard of this paradox, but I've always told my kids, "If you have to spend more to get quality, go for it." I will say though, if I won't be using a product very often, but still need it, I will buy something at a lower cost/quality.
- coldtea 8mo ago
  >If this translates to longer device retention (if you enable battery changes, a current gen device can easily last a decade), people will care. $200 phone that you can use for 5+ years without handicapping the user will be a much bigger hit Would it? Most people, including in the developing countries, like changing phones. It's one of the small consumerist joys they get, plus they show the Joneses that they can keep up.
  - rcxdude 8mo ago
    This is easier if the device retains its resale value. Keeping up with the latest iphone is cheaper than the latest Android flagship because of this.
j-bos 8mo ago
> [..] Phones that are like $150-200 sell like hot cakes What percentage of that is based on phones at that price having a headphone jack?
- neya 8mo ago
  I know where you're getting at, I wish modern phones had the headphone jack. It was the most stupidest decision to remove them. I now use an Apple USB-C to headphone jack converter, while the inbuilt DAC is really good, it's quite inconvenient as I'm an audiophile myself and if I take a different headphone with me to the gym, I can't use it if I forgot to bring the converter (which happens a lot).
fwn 8mo ago
The average consumer (in the western part of the world) uses an Apple or Samsung phone, not a Motorola. Lenovo is not going to change that, nor will they ever make a phone that is better at being a Samsung phone than Samsung. I think that in the current smartphone manufacturer landscape, being an underdog kind of requires serving niche segments.
wink 8mo ago
> Does it last more than 2 years? I originally didn't want to comment out of personal spite... but I once bought a motorola phone that got its last update (security or not) 23 months after launch. They're on my shit list now.
ethbr1 8mo ago
>> Make MDM easy & first class (no third parties...), and a ton of corp will roll it out too. To me, this is how you get around consumers buying locked down more heavily subsidized devices, if you're competing with an open device strategy. Corporations want corporate devices that (a) are secure, (b) work, and (c) take as little of IT's time as possible to manage. Motorola + GrapheneOS + Microsoft for a turnkey managed corporate device solution seems surprisingly competitive.
Noaidi 8mo ago
This would be big for businesses, like the the full title of the article reveals: "Motorola announces a partnership with GrapheneOS Foundation, marking a new chapter in smartphone security and expanding its enterprise portfolio" I know a lot of businesses that would love to not be exposed to Google.
- evandrofisico 8mo ago
  They are probably going for a new thinkphone generation for the prosumer/enterprise and not for the consumer market.
monegator 8mo ago
> The average consumer doesn't care even one bit. Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? think company-issued phones. There are many that would love to not have to deal with samsung and apple.
tnel77 8mo ago
This is spot on. I’ve had this conversation with so many software engineers that struggle to understand that what they want is rarely what your average Joe wants. “Well I’m right and they should understand that” is usually a good summary of the response.
Zak 8mo ago
It's not just the average consumer. I continue to be surprised that so many developers and other tech nerds - the type who post on HN - chose and continue to choose the iPhone over Android when Apple dictates what apps they can install and locks third-party accessories out of certain features. Current times do present the opportunity to raise awareness of the issue though. App store bans for apps like ICEBlock, and various laws age-gating app stores considerably expand the population with reason to care who has ultimate control of their phone.
- lo_zamoyski 8mo ago
  > I continue to be surprised that so many developers and other tech nerds - the type who post on HN - chose and continue to choose the iPhone over Android when Apple dictates what apps they can install and locks third-party accessories out of certain features. Why do you assume every "developer and tech nerd" cares about the things you do, or should? This is like the stereotypical buffoonish sysadmin who scoffs at people who don't mod their machines or configure every last bit of their OS by hand.
  - Zak 8mo ago
    I expect most people to think it's bad if a corporation can keep them from running apps on their phone when those apps are good for the user and bad for the corporation. If most people don't understand that conflicts of interest lead to unethical behavior, that's a larger and more urgent social problem. I expect tech nerds to be aware that the conflict of interests exists in this case, while the average person would not.
    - WorldMaker 8mo ago
      You can be aware of the conflict of interest and still decide that is an acceptable trade-off to make. Ethics are personal, subjective, and subject to trade-offs. You have a strong ethical support for having control of the apps running on your devices and that overrides other trade-offs. Another person may have competing ethical beliefs such as Google is an advertising company and while Android allows open software installation (today, at least), Google's conflicts of interest as an ad company are more concerning for the entire platform and larger ecosystem than Apple's conflicts of interest as an application gate keeper. There's no right answer, everything is a shade of gray. Your strongest ethics aren't necessarily your neighbors'.
99954bb63ccc 8mo ago
It is funny how I do believe this is true, but also can't help but notice how much effort they spend defeating this exact user base. Reminds me of ad companies... I'm sure they also don't care about targeting some fraction of a percentage of their base, but look how much effort they spend defeating ad blockers lol.
WebBurnout 8mo ago
I know a fair number of non-technical folks that hate the idea of trusting Google or Apple with their data. It's part of a generalized backlash to big tech corps that will only increase as their size and power over our lives continues to grow unchecked. Godspeed GrapheneOS
cogman10 8mo ago
The original Google Nexus program showed that there is a market for more open phones and platforms. I don't disagree with you that in order to sell, these devices need to be somewhat appealing to more than just devs. However, I will say that the dev market isn't as small as it once was. A decent phone with an open platform would be something a lot of devs would likely prioritize buying. It won't be the next Iphone, but it will be a pretty dedicated market segment. Framework is a good example of that. A laptop business that stays afloat mostly because there is a desire for repairable long lasting products, even if it's a bit niche. Given a lot of phone manufacturers are now trying bizarre edges to get ahead (like foldable... who wants that?) it seems like a good rarely taken route.
- neya 8mo ago
  Agree with you on the foldables. God, no one wants that. That's why they have to pitch it as some luxury product the masses can't afford. I hate those creases too. No one can convince me those things are durable...no matter how many marketing videos they make.
  - bloomingeek 8mo ago
    Well...not to be disagreeable, I've had the Flip 4 and now, since it came out, a Flip 5. Both are excellent products. IF you keep a semi-fresh screen protector film on them, the screen will not break/crack in the flex/fold area. I didn't try them for luxury, I tried them because they fit comfortably in my pants pocket.
    - cogman10 8mo ago
      I guess I could see it. I'm guessing you tend to wear pants with shallow pockets correct? It is a problem my wife runs into that woman's pants have next to no pockets. She ends up needing to store her phone elsewhere as a result.
      - bloomingeek 7mo ago
        Yes, on the shallow pockets. Also, I had the habit of putting my non-folding phone down when sitting, and then leaving it behind.(!) I would sit it down because it wouldn't fit into my pocket and I didn't always carry a hip pack. Except for the stupid high prices of the "fold" phones, they would put me right back in the non pocket fitting situation. (Although the extra screen space would be sweet!)
kelvinjps10 8mo ago
But this seems like it's mostly for corporations and businesses that they're doing this feature. It's the same as Lenovo Thinkpads which also have good Linux integration,and are catered to business. So if they're able to make business from this open products from corporations, and I as user benefit from a computer that allows to run open software. It's a win-win for everyone
ohhnoodont 8mo ago
The average consumer is also very happy to take recommendations from the tech-literate people in their life. I would love if there was a budget-friendly, privacy-preserving phone I could recommend to everyone.
AndyMcConachie 8mo ago
You have a point, but two counters to this: 1) You don't need to capture a large part of the market to make a profit. The market for smartphones is large enough that even capturing a small percentage of it can be profitable. 2) Privacy is increasingly becoming a differentiator and I predict privacy will be increasingly important as a differentiator. Just because no company has successfully managed to market privacy benefits doesn't mean there is no market for it. There's a lot of marketing potential in terms of privacy that companies like NordVPN, Incogni, and DeleteMe have figured out. People are clearly willing to pay for privacy.
catapart 8mo ago
It's developer fantasy because no one was putting any money into this kind of project. Presumably, because the data showed there wouldn't be enough return from it. Which then implies that the data has updated to show that there is at least enough for a company like Motorola to put at least this much money in to it. The whole point is that a company is going to try to market this developer fantasy to non-developers, assuming that what excites developers about it enough to discuss it will resonate with non-developers when they hear developers talk about their new phones. It's not a guarantee of success or anything, but a lot of stuff works like this. Mozilla didn't gain market dominance (for a hot second in the early 2000's) because they marketed to non-devs. They just provided a superior product in every way to everything else at the time, and devs couldn't ignore that, so non-devs always dealt with non-microsoft browsers whenever the devs came around. That kind of "grass is greener" non-marketing is a real winner when the product is solid. So here's hoping Motorola takes a great idea and builds a product so solid on it that people can't ignore it.
Pxtl 8mo ago
I actually think things have changed slightly. With the sudden shift to political extremism of the US government there's growing mistrust of US-owned software products... and anybody who thinks hard about that will have similar concerns about a Chinese company like Motorola/Lenovo. Now I don't know how big the public market is. And you'd have to do a lot of conspiracy-based marketing to pull it off, which is kind of gross. But commitment to auditable, hackable OSS would target a different market of people looking for devices -- think of the EU agencies trying to get off of MS products. "Hey, do you know if the NSA is spying on your devices? PLA intelligence? Would you like to be able to build all your phone's code from source to be sure?"
- XorNot 8mo ago
  Technically that marketing line would actually do really well to sell phones into those types of organizations and related ones too. A fully suitable off the shelf device would be a dream for most government IT.
ajsnigrutin 8mo ago
Developing countries also care about blocking ads, installing pirated games, and apps for pirated streaming of music and video. As someone born in a country that used to be "the leader" of the third world, computers here won over consoles only because we could pirate expensive games that we couldn't afford. Expensive cartridge vs two tape recorders and some fiddling with the tapes? The tapes win!
informal007 8mo ago
The market is huge enough to including all kinds of consumers
dj0k3r 8mo ago
> countries around Asia and you'll be surprised how people prioritise features While this is true, I can also say that the other minority becomes large enough for any OEM to care. It might even drawf market size of other markets when only compares in numbers.
shaky-carrousel 8mo ago
The average consumer doesn't care about what you think. The average consumer is getting really tired of people speaking on their name. The average consumer would like to vote with their wallet, thank you very much.
DyslexicAtheist 8mo ago
you don't need to convince the average user, you just need to convince the tech-influencers.
emporas 8mo ago
> What developers want and what the average consumer wants/needs are two different things. This description of average consumer is so 2021. Nowadays the average consumer can vibe code stuff and share it with his friends. So he needs a package manager not only an app store. I personally don't hold vibe coding in any high regard, I hate not knowing and controlling what code is running on my computer/device, but I can see the value for amateurs in just playing around and occasionally destroying the OS, installing it again and so on.
- behnamoh 8mo ago
  > Nowadays the average consumer can vibe code stuff and share it with his friends. So he needs a package manager not only an app store. This is also developer fantasy for two reasons: (1) Most vibed apps suck in unpredictable ways. (2) Most avg consumers don't even know what Claude is, let alone Claude Code, let alone being good enough at vibing to produce anything of value.
  - emporas 8mo ago
    >Most avg consumers don't even know what Claude is[..] Vibe coding is very early and pretty expensive, but computers and the internet are always in an exponential curve, a curve much steeper than the rest of the economy. Give it 3 years, and you will be amazed. Not everyone will be vibe coding. In every social circle of 10 people, 1 person will be good at that, and will develop programs for his/her friends. >Most vibed apps suck in unpredictable ways. Yes of course, it would be infinitely preferable for normal people to learn proper computer science, algorithms etc. We agree on that.
the_real_cher 8mo ago
The average consumer WILL like an OS that isnt overly cluttered and simpler and cleaner.
slim 8mo ago
The average consumer trusts our jugement. If we say motorola is the best phone, we will convert a significant chunk of consumers in as few as 5 years given the short life of the devices
rewgs 8mo ago
The article specifically talks about B2B and MDM-like features. The "average consumer" isn't the point here -- rather, governments, defense, high-security corporations, etc.
kube-system 8mo ago
> This is just developer fantasy. The average consumer doesn't care even one bit. Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? Even more than all of those, customers want Google Mobile Services apps, such as Google Play, Google Maps, YouTube.
evolve2k 8mo ago
Counter-point; we are in times of mass upheaval and protest. Purchasing a secure phone is desirable to almost anyone who is increasingly worried about state and corporate actors, especially those that would seek to surveil and coerce. I suspect some will buy these phones as a daily driver, some as a second phone. Institutional trust is at an all time low, this is a smart move selling into the growing demand for secure devices and it’s in line with Lenovos recent big decision to sell Linux as the default on their new devices. Finally this seems to be a corporate play itself, most companies also don’t want other companies surveilling their staff and extracting staff secrets. Hence the bringing of enterprise functionality to compliment the ‘secure’ work Graphene are already doing.
- thewebguyd 8mo ago
  > Lenovos recent big decision to sell Linux as the default on their new devices. Where did you see this? I want to believe it, but I can't find any press release about this (other than it already being available as an option at checkout, but it's not default) outside of weird domains full of AI articles.
  - evolve2k 8mo ago
    Ok this has taken me down a rabbit hole. I swear I read this from a reputable source a week or so ago and my memory was that I went to post it here and there was already a HN post (but have been unable to find that nor the original article). Basic details from the article were that machines would come with Ubuntu for retail and fedora for business machines and that 60% of new machines were planned to be Linux; therefore ending Lenovos prioritising windows on the majority of its machines. But yeah can’t find much record of it now. This site seems to have scraped the article I read as that copy all reads familiar but I def wasn’t reading from an AI site with a YouTube thumbnail up top. https://galaxy.ai/youtube-summarizer/lenovos-historic-shift-to-linux-as-default-os-challenges-microsofts-windows-dominance-k8OMjEWOo_M https://galaxy.ai/youtube-summarizer/lenovos-historic-shift-... Earlier article that’s not in question. https://itsfoss.com/news/lenovo-cuts-windows-tax/ https://itsfoss.com/news/lenovo-cuts-windows-tax/
- jama211 8mo ago
dismalaf 8mo ago
To add to this, midrange phones and laptops are now more than "good enough". You can get a phone for a couple hundred dollars that plays just about any game, runs any software, takes good enough pictures. Laptops too. Look at the Steam Deck or Switch 2, both years old hardware, both very relevant. Laptops with equivalent specs are more than fine for most people.
0xdeadbeefbabe 8mo ago
> user control and freedom Yeah, most people don't want that. Wasn't that apple add with the hammer all about freedom?
whatshisface 8mo ago
Developer fantasy? Here's the consumer fact: people do not like the race-to-the-bottom extractive practices installed on their computers non-consentually. People do not like the union-style collective barganining of duopolies following each other's anticonsumer practices after the bolder one tests it. Everybody complains about this stuff nonstop, and adapts by reducing their attention span on a fundamental level. The demand for a respectful computing environment is enormous.
godelski 8mo ago
This is just a pessimist's fantasy. The average consumer doesn't care even one bit. Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? Go to some developing countries around Asia and you'll be surprised how many people are sideloading apps, which is part of the reason Google tried their bullshit with developing countries first. You're right that people mostly care about if it works, but when they have more choices they care about more things IF all else is equal. The "2 years" thing is definitely not correct either, especially as budgets are getting tighter. The time is right for this change, as the reality is that the market has stagnated. Even cheap phones have good cameras, good batteries, and run smooth now. There's been very little innovation in phones over the last 5 years that the average person actually cares about. But the average person is frustrated with surveillance capitalism, but feels like there's nothing they can do about it. Don't confuse exhaustion with apathy. They look similar, but are very different.
- burningChrome 8mo ago
  >> This is just a pessimist's fantasy. The average consumer doesn't care even one bit. Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? The Windows phone did all three way better than Android and was still a massive failure in the US and abroad.
  - godelski 8mo ago
    I was never able to daily drive it but the people I knew that did would have disagreed. Regardless of reality perception also matters, unfortunately.
exabrial 8mo ago
The laptop segment is a poor example. Apple is the only company mass producing high performance arm laptops with a completely custom os that integrates to the hardware. You take what you can get. Your choices are: run windows (lol), or linux(whats linux?) system76 is the only company even coming close, but their performance is way behind mainstream unfortunately because they don't have the custom silicon capability that Apple does.
OneDeuxTriSeiGo 8mo ago
The average consumer may not care but there's multiple overlapping segments that Motorola can capitalise on here: - tech consumers (i.e. the current GOS pixel market) - family members of tech consumers. i.e. tech consumers can hopefully now recommend stock grapheneOS on motorola to family members since it's not a custom ROM but just a stock device with official manufacturer support. - privacy/security conscious non-techy types. - non-techy users who want a device without AI or a bunch of unnecessary addon apps like google or samsung tend to preload on devices. - business IT optimising for security and minimal attack surface while sticking to COTS B2B and B2C options for corporate handhelds. Like this isn't the largest market ever but it's a sizeable and fairly loyal market because each one of these groups is fairly opposed to unnecessary change. It's safe, reliable, and sustainable growth in a broader market that is extremely hostile. And they are in particular targeting the business IT market since this announcement was made as part of their showcase on their new B2B cellular options.
- RGamma 8mo ago
  Don't underestimate tech-savy users' influence either. I could easily add 7+ people to the user base next replacement cycle.
  - diacritical 8mo ago
    I could add 3 off the top of my head. Probably a couple more. Privacy conscious people who aren't techies. Some have tried Linux, some don't know what a "browser" or "SD card" is. If features like phone calls, SMS, the camera and most regular apps work (especially banking apps, sadly), they'll be happy and receive free indefinite support from me. I wouldn't use banking apps myself unless they open source them, but I'm willing to make a concession and support my friends' issues with such apps.
    - mulmen 8mo ago
      Bank tech sucks. I’m really surprised nobody has made a good online bank experience with no-nonsense APIs. This is a great opportunity for Motorola to partner with banks that commit to supporting their platform. The right online bank could be an ideal launch partner.
saidinesh5 8mo ago
It might be developer fantasy but half of the giants in the mobile market really did take off this way: * xiaomi with their miui skin/custom ROM - "bringing iOS like polish to Android" back then * oneplus with their initial devices with cyanogenmod - clean aosp interface without any bloat and lots of features. In fact, when my brother was buying phones for my mom (neither of them were really that technically inclined), he bought a Motorola mostly because "it doesn't have all those ads like redmi at the same price"
- pants2 8mo ago
  Indeed - I remember MKBHD praising the initial OnePlus thanks to that approach. Today he's got 20M subscribers. If Motorola gets big tech reviewers on their side it's a big market. Not to mention the more techy people in a family unit often make recommendations. I told my dad to buy a Nexus phone for that same reason which he still has, of course it's 10y old now so I'll probably have him upgrade to a Motorola.
reddalo 8mo ago
I've been buying Google Pixel for almost 10 years now, and Nexus phones before that, and my current Pixel is the last Google phone I'll buy. The ecosystem is closed, Google is speed-running to 100% evil, they're locking down APK installations, etc. I need to find a replacement, and with me a lot of tech friends and non-techies that just ask me for advice. The market is waiting for someone to step in; this is a golden chance for Motorola.
- wpwpwpw 7mo ago
  You can install GrapheneOS today on your Pixel.
  - reddalo 7mo ago
    I wish I could. Unfortunately, I need both Google Wallet (I don't carry a physical wallet with me) and both my digital ID app and my bank app don't run on GrapheneOS. I'm annoyed a lot by that, but there's simply no alternative that I found.
varenc 8mo ago
I generally agree with the sentiment about the average consumer, but the commenter above called out MDM specifically, as in, corporate Mobile Device Management (MDM). I definitely see how large security conscious companies could be quite interested in a good GrapheneOS phone since it would alleviate fears about their corporate data getting leaked to Google, and really allow them to secure the phone in all the ways they want. So the market wouldn't just be niche privacy conscious consumer, but companies buying these phones for employees.
dleslie 8mo ago
When side-loading and adblock stops being available then the average consumer will flip a table. Most folks I know with Android devices have them running with adblockers and such; and their Android TV devices are _loaded_ with pirate streaming software. Because here in Canada you can buy devices preloaded with such things for a pittance over MSRP.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
boplicity 8mo ago
I wonder if there is an enterprise market for a fully audited, fully customizable phone that can be deployed across an entire organization, giving the institution full control of the software, apps, security, usage, etc.
- nomel 8mo ago
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DANmode 8mo ago
> Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? Currently, yes. These are easily achieved bars for a Graphene piece.
rprend 8mo ago
There is a hobbyist market for a tinker-phone; it’s just tiny. Like Raspberry Pi or Framework market cap vs Macbook market cap.
sieabahlpark 8mo ago
[dead]

by neya 8mo ago

raincole 8mo ago

I don't know why you need to bring developing countries into the discussion. I'm quite sure average users from developed countries don't care that either.

pbasista 8mo ago

No one suggests that open and developers-friendly phones should be expensive.

tokioyoyo 8mo ago
A good chunk of cheap hardware is subsidized by ads and data sales.
neya 8mo ago
I agree, but they always will be expensive because they are a niche. Same reasoning as phones that focus on one niche (like photo/videographers) always end up being super expensive (eg. Xperia from Sony).
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- qmarchi 8mo ago
  Disclaimer: Niche Xperia User. Not necessarily, the Xperia line of devices is varied, with nice set of tiers: 1 - Flagship $$$$ 5 - Smaller Flagship $$$ 10 - Mainline $$ Ace - $ Sony's problem is that they have garbage marketing teams that don't understand that 99% of people don't look at a spec sheet, they ask the employee at the shop for the best phone, which is gunna be the one that gets the employee the most commission. In Japan, they already have that with Docomo, AU, and Softbank. But they've failed to materialize that strategy outside of here.
kube-system 8mo ago
Right, it's the economics of mass production that does that.

scrollop 8mo ago

Other than flip/niche phones, phones appear to have plateaued. IF you offer someone a phone with similar specs to others, yet much, much more private - many would go for that.

oblio 8mo ago
How many is many? Fairly sure hardware development is very hard and expensive. Are we talking about 1 million people worldwide (peanuts, will probably not recover the investment) or 50 million worldwide (might be worth it)?
- regularfry 8mo ago
  I think you're an order of magnitude out. Motorola shipped 36.6 million handsets total across 2024. They seem to have had 33 handset models available in that period, and they were in profit, so the break-even point is presumably somewhere below 1.1M handsets.
  - oblio 8mo ago
    If I'm off for the second group I'm probably also off for the first one. I'd be surprised if a purely privacy focused phone sells more than 200k units per year.
j_maffe 8mo ago
If that were true then the Windows phones would've survived. You need the app ecosystem.

RobotToaster 8mo ago

The market for programs like revanced is pretty big, that's why Google is going to remove "sideloading". At which point there will be a large market for an open phone that allows the user to install what they want.

LtWorf 8mo ago
As long as the banking apps and such work.
- coldtea 8mo ago
  Banks shouldn't have custom apps that are not mobile websites, accessible via the mobile browser just as well.
  - actionfromafar 8mo ago
    Apparently there are special auth apps storing things in secure-enclave-ish parts of the OS. Not a great match for websites.
    - cogman10 8mo ago
      No, that's just BS. The web has a secure storage standard and OAuth + MFA is just as secure as anything your bank could cook up in an app. In fact, I'd be shocked if banks did a better job of security in their apps vs what browsers and standard auth flows provide. Banks just like selling the idea that "if it's encrypted, it's secure". But trust me when I say this, bank security across the board absolutely sucks. The company I work with does financial data ingest and... yeah... There's more than a few institutions where we had to pull teeth to get them to send stuff through an encrypted transport (SFTP, for example, they want to just use FTP).
    - coldtea 8mo ago
      The OS/browser could give this capability to web apps via an API.

repelsteeltje 8mo ago

> [..] Phones that are like $150-200 sell like hot cakes. True and all. But there is at least anecdotal evidence the niche for $500 phones marketed as not-google/not-samsung/not-apple/not-chinese is substantial and growing. Here in Europe I'm seeing Fairphones in hands of non-techies, so there seems to be some willingness to pay a premium to move away from big tech.

realusername 8mo ago

For consumers maybe, for countries on the other hand there's a massive push for digital independence right now and this is part of it.

bayindirh 8mo ago

If this translates to longer device retention (if you enable battery changes, a current gen device can easily last a decade), people will care. $200 phone that you can use for 5+ years without handicapping the user will be a much bigger hit. This translates well to the boots paradox. This can change "cheaper is much more expensive in the long run" to "cheaper is a bit more expensive on the long run". This, of course, will not create enough value for the people who doesn't need or appreciate the need for these $200 phones.

ChrisMarshallNY 8mo ago
> boots paradox For those that don’t know what they meant, here you go[0]. I’ve always been a fan of Quality, but Quality costs, and people that get rich, generally do so, by selling lots of lower-quality stuff. Hard to compete against. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory
- bloomingeek 8mo ago
  Excellent info and article. I'd not heard of this paradox, but I've always told my kids, "If you have to spend more to get quality, go for it." I will say though, if I won't be using a product very often, but still need it, I will buy something at a lower cost/quality.
coldtea 8mo ago
>If this translates to longer device retention (if you enable battery changes, a current gen device can easily last a decade), people will care. $200 phone that you can use for 5+ years without handicapping the user will be a much bigger hit Would it? Most people, including in the developing countries, like changing phones. It's one of the small consumerist joys they get, plus they show the Joneses that they can keep up.
- rcxdude 8mo ago
  This is easier if the device retains its resale value. Keeping up with the latest iphone is cheaper than the latest Android flagship because of this.

j-bos 8mo ago

> [..] Phones that are like $150-200 sell like hot cakes What percentage of that is based on phones at that price having a headphone jack?

neya 8mo ago
I know where you're getting at, I wish modern phones had the headphone jack. It was the most stupidest decision to remove them. I now use an Apple USB-C to headphone jack converter, while the inbuilt DAC is really good, it's quite inconvenient as I'm an audiophile myself and if I take a different headphone with me to the gym, I can't use it if I forgot to bring the converter (which happens a lot).

fwn 8mo ago

The average consumer (in the western part of the world) uses an Apple or Samsung phone, not a Motorola. Lenovo is not going to change that, nor will they ever make a phone that is better at being a Samsung phone than Samsung. I think that in the current smartphone manufacturer landscape, being an underdog kind of requires serving niche segments.

wink 8mo ago

> Does it last more than 2 years? I originally didn't want to comment out of personal spite... but I once bought a motorola phone that got its last update (security or not) 23 months after launch. They're on my shit list now.

ethbr1 8mo ago

>> Make MDM easy & first class (no third parties...), and a ton of corp will roll it out too. To me, this is how you get around consumers buying locked down more heavily subsidized devices, if you're competing with an open device strategy. Corporations want corporate devices that (a) are secure, (b) work, and (c) take as little of IT's time as possible to manage. Motorola + GrapheneOS + Microsoft for a turnkey managed corporate device solution seems surprisingly competitive.

Noaidi 8mo ago

This would be big for businesses, like the the full title of the article reveals: "Motorola announces a partnership with GrapheneOS Foundation, marking a new chapter in smartphone security and expanding its enterprise portfolio" I know a lot of businesses that would love to not be exposed to Google.

evandrofisico 8mo ago
They are probably going for a new thinkphone generation for the prosumer/enterprise and not for the consumer market.

monegator 8mo ago

> The average consumer doesn't care even one bit. Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? think company-issued phones. There are many that would love to not have to deal with samsung and apple.

tnel77 8mo ago

This is spot on. I’ve had this conversation with so many software engineers that struggle to understand that what they want is rarely what your average Joe wants. “Well I’m right and they should understand that” is usually a good summary of the response.

Zak 8mo ago

It's not just the average consumer. I continue to be surprised that so many developers and other tech nerds - the type who post on HN - chose and continue to choose the iPhone over Android when Apple dictates what apps they can install and locks third-party accessories out of certain features. Current times do present the opportunity to raise awareness of the issue though. App store bans for apps like ICEBlock, and various laws age-gating app stores considerably expand the population with reason to care who has ultimate control of their phone.

lo_zamoyski 8mo ago
> I continue to be surprised that so many developers and other tech nerds - the type who post on HN - chose and continue to choose the iPhone over Android when Apple dictates what apps they can install and locks third-party accessories out of certain features. Why do you assume every "developer and tech nerd" cares about the things you do, or should? This is like the stereotypical buffoonish sysadmin who scoffs at people who don't mod their machines or configure every last bit of their OS by hand.
- Zak 8mo ago
  I expect most people to think it's bad if a corporation can keep them from running apps on their phone when those apps are good for the user and bad for the corporation. If most people don't understand that conflicts of interest lead to unethical behavior, that's a larger and more urgent social problem. I expect tech nerds to be aware that the conflict of interests exists in this case, while the average person would not.
  - WorldMaker 8mo ago
    You can be aware of the conflict of interest and still decide that is an acceptable trade-off to make. Ethics are personal, subjective, and subject to trade-offs. You have a strong ethical support for having control of the apps running on your devices and that overrides other trade-offs. Another person may have competing ethical beliefs such as Google is an advertising company and while Android allows open software installation (today, at least), Google's conflicts of interest as an ad company are more concerning for the entire platform and larger ecosystem than Apple's conflicts of interest as an application gate keeper. There's no right answer, everything is a shade of gray. Your strongest ethics aren't necessarily your neighbors'.

99954bb63ccc 8mo ago

It is funny how I do believe this is true, but also can't help but notice how much effort they spend defeating this exact user base. Reminds me of ad companies... I'm sure they also don't care about targeting some fraction of a percentage of their base, but look how much effort they spend defeating ad blockers lol.

WebBurnout 8mo ago

I know a fair number of non-technical folks that hate the idea of trusting Google or Apple with their data. It's part of a generalized backlash to big tech corps that will only increase as their size and power over our lives continues to grow unchecked. Godspeed GrapheneOS

cogman10 8mo ago

The original Google Nexus program showed that there is a market for more open phones and platforms. I don't disagree with you that in order to sell, these devices need to be somewhat appealing to more than just devs. However, I will say that the dev market isn't as small as it once was. A decent phone with an open platform would be something a lot of devs would likely prioritize buying. It won't be the next Iphone, but it will be a pretty dedicated market segment. Framework is a good example of that. A laptop business that stays afloat mostly because there is a desire for repairable long lasting products, even if it's a bit niche. Given a lot of phone manufacturers are now trying bizarre edges to get ahead (like foldable... who wants that?) it seems like a good rarely taken route.

neya 8mo ago
Agree with you on the foldables. God, no one wants that. That's why they have to pitch it as some luxury product the masses can't afford. I hate those creases too. No one can convince me those things are durable...no matter how many marketing videos they make.
- bloomingeek 8mo ago
  Well...not to be disagreeable, I've had the Flip 4 and now, since it came out, a Flip 5. Both are excellent products. IF you keep a semi-fresh screen protector film on them, the screen will not break/crack in the flex/fold area. I didn't try them for luxury, I tried them because they fit comfortably in my pants pocket.
  - cogman10 8mo ago
    I guess I could see it. I'm guessing you tend to wear pants with shallow pockets correct? It is a problem my wife runs into that woman's pants have next to no pockets. She ends up needing to store her phone elsewhere as a result.
    - bloomingeek 7mo ago
      Yes, on the shallow pockets. Also, I had the habit of putting my non-folding phone down when sitting, and then leaving it behind.(!) I would sit it down because it wouldn't fit into my pocket and I didn't always carry a hip pack. Except for the stupid high prices of the "fold" phones, they would put me right back in the non pocket fitting situation. (Although the extra screen space would be sweet!)

kelvinjps10 8mo ago

But this seems like it's mostly for corporations and businesses that they're doing this feature. It's the same as Lenovo Thinkpads which also have good Linux integration,and are catered to business. So if they're able to make business from this open products from corporations, and I as user benefit from a computer that allows to run open software. It's a win-win for everyone

ohhnoodont 8mo ago

The average consumer is also very happy to take recommendations from the tech-literate people in their life. I would love if there was a budget-friendly, privacy-preserving phone I could recommend to everyone.

AndyMcConachie 8mo ago

You have a point, but two counters to this: 1) You don't need to capture a large part of the market to make a profit. The market for smartphones is large enough that even capturing a small percentage of it can be profitable. 2) Privacy is increasingly becoming a differentiator and I predict privacy will be increasingly important as a differentiator. Just because no company has successfully managed to market privacy benefits doesn't mean there is no market for it. There's a lot of marketing potential in terms of privacy that companies like NordVPN, Incogni, and DeleteMe have figured out. People are clearly willing to pay for privacy.

catapart 8mo ago

It's developer fantasy because no one was putting any money into this kind of project. Presumably, because the data showed there wouldn't be enough return from it. Which then implies that the data has updated to show that there is at least enough for a company like Motorola to put at least this much money in to it. The whole point is that a company is going to try to market this developer fantasy to non-developers, assuming that what excites developers about it enough to discuss it will resonate with non-developers when they hear developers talk about their new phones. It's not a guarantee of success or anything, but a lot of stuff works like this. Mozilla didn't gain market dominance (for a hot second in the early 2000's) because they marketed to non-devs. They just provided a superior product in every way to everything else at the time, and devs couldn't ignore that, so non-devs always dealt with non-microsoft browsers whenever the devs came around. That kind of "grass is greener" non-marketing is a real winner when the product is solid. So here's hoping Motorola takes a great idea and builds a product so solid on it that people can't ignore it.

Pxtl 8mo ago

I actually think things have changed slightly. With the sudden shift to political extremism of the US government there's growing mistrust of US-owned software products... and anybody who thinks hard about that will have similar concerns about a Chinese company like Motorola/Lenovo. Now I don't know how big the public market is. And you'd have to do a lot of conspiracy-based marketing to pull it off, which is kind of gross. But commitment to auditable, hackable OSS would target a different market of people looking for devices -- think of the EU agencies trying to get off of MS products. "Hey, do you know if the NSA is spying on your devices? PLA intelligence? Would you like to be able to build all your phone's code from source to be sure?"

XorNot 8mo ago
Technically that marketing line would actually do really well to sell phones into those types of organizations and related ones too. A fully suitable off the shelf device would be a dream for most government IT.

ajsnigrutin 8mo ago

Developing countries also care about blocking ads, installing pirated games, and apps for pirated streaming of music and video. As someone born in a country that used to be "the leader" of the third world, computers here won over consoles only because we could pirate expensive games that we couldn't afford. Expensive cartridge vs two tape recorders and some fiddling with the tapes? The tapes win!

informal007 8mo ago

The market is huge enough to including all kinds of consumers

dj0k3r 8mo ago

> countries around Asia and you'll be surprised how people prioritise features While this is true, I can also say that the other minority becomes large enough for any OEM to care. It might even drawf market size of other markets when only compares in numbers.

shaky-carrousel 8mo ago

The average consumer doesn't care about what you think. The average consumer is getting really tired of people speaking on their name. The average consumer would like to vote with their wallet, thank you very much.

DyslexicAtheist 8mo ago

you don't need to convince the average user, you just need to convince the tech-influencers.

emporas 8mo ago

> What developers want and what the average consumer wants/needs are two different things. This description of average consumer is so 2021. Nowadays the average consumer can vibe code stuff and share it with his friends. So he needs a package manager not only an app store. I personally don't hold vibe coding in any high regard, I hate not knowing and controlling what code is running on my computer/device, but I can see the value for amateurs in just playing around and occasionally destroying the OS, installing it again and so on.

behnamoh 8mo ago
> Nowadays the average consumer can vibe code stuff and share it with his friends. So he needs a package manager not only an app store. This is also developer fantasy for two reasons: (1) Most vibed apps suck in unpredictable ways. (2) Most avg consumers don't even know what Claude is, let alone Claude Code, let alone being good enough at vibing to produce anything of value.
- emporas 8mo ago
  >Most avg consumers don't even know what Claude is[..] Vibe coding is very early and pretty expensive, but computers and the internet are always in an exponential curve, a curve much steeper than the rest of the economy. Give it 3 years, and you will be amazed. Not everyone will be vibe coding. In every social circle of 10 people, 1 person will be good at that, and will develop programs for his/her friends. >Most vibed apps suck in unpredictable ways. Yes of course, it would be infinitely preferable for normal people to learn proper computer science, algorithms etc. We agree on that.

the_real_cher 8mo ago

The average consumer WILL like an OS that isnt overly cluttered and simpler and cleaner.

slim 8mo ago

The average consumer trusts our jugement. If we say motorola is the best phone, we will convert a significant chunk of consumers in as few as 5 years given the short life of the devices

rewgs 8mo ago

The article specifically talks about B2B and MDM-like features. The "average consumer" isn't the point here -- rather, governments, defense, high-security corporations, etc.

kube-system 8mo ago

> This is just developer fantasy. The average consumer doesn't care even one bit. Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? Even more than all of those, customers want Google Mobile Services apps, such as Google Play, Google Maps, YouTube.

evolve2k 8mo ago

Counter-point; we are in times of mass upheaval and protest. Purchasing a secure phone is desirable to almost anyone who is increasingly worried about state and corporate actors, especially those that would seek to surveil and coerce. I suspect some will buy these phones as a daily driver, some as a second phone. Institutional trust is at an all time low, this is a smart move selling into the growing demand for secure devices and it’s in line with Lenovos recent big decision to sell Linux as the default on their new devices. Finally this seems to be a corporate play itself, most companies also don’t want other companies surveilling their staff and extracting staff secrets. Hence the bringing of enterprise functionality to compliment the ‘secure’ work Graphene are already doing.

thewebguyd 8mo ago
> Lenovos recent big decision to sell Linux as the default on their new devices. Where did you see this? I want to believe it, but I can't find any press release about this (other than it already being available as an option at checkout, but it's not default) outside of weird domains full of AI articles.
- evolve2k 8mo ago
  Ok this has taken me down a rabbit hole. I swear I read this from a reputable source a week or so ago and my memory was that I went to post it here and there was already a HN post (but have been unable to find that nor the original article). Basic details from the article were that machines would come with Ubuntu for retail and fedora for business machines and that 60% of new machines were planned to be Linux; therefore ending Lenovos prioritising windows on the majority of its machines. But yeah can’t find much record of it now. This site seems to have scraped the article I read as that copy all reads familiar but I def wasn’t reading from an AI site with a YouTube thumbnail up top. https://galaxy.ai/youtube-summarizer/lenovos-historic-shift-to-linux-as-default-os-challenges-microsofts-windows-dominance-k8OMjEWOo_M https://galaxy.ai/youtube-summarizer/lenovos-historic-shift-... Earlier article that’s not in question. https://itsfoss.com/news/lenovo-cuts-windows-tax/ https://itsfoss.com/news/lenovo-cuts-windows-tax/
jama211 8mo ago

dismalaf 8mo ago

To add to this, midrange phones and laptops are now more than "good enough". You can get a phone for a couple hundred dollars that plays just about any game, runs any software, takes good enough pictures. Laptops too. Look at the Steam Deck or Switch 2, both years old hardware, both very relevant. Laptops with equivalent specs are more than fine for most people.

0xdeadbeefbabe 8mo ago

> user control and freedom Yeah, most people don't want that. Wasn't that apple add with the hammer all about freedom?

whatshisface 8mo ago

Developer fantasy? Here's the consumer fact: people do not like the race-to-the-bottom extractive practices installed on their computers non-consentually. People do not like the union-style collective barganining of duopolies following each other's anticonsumer practices after the bolder one tests it. Everybody complains about this stuff nonstop, and adapts by reducing their attention span on a fundamental level. The demand for a respectful computing environment is enormous.

godelski 8mo ago

This is just a pessimist's fantasy. The average consumer doesn't care even one bit. Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? Go to some developing countries around Asia and you'll be surprised how many people are sideloading apps, which is part of the reason Google tried their bullshit with developing countries first. You're right that people mostly care about if it works, but when they have more choices they care about more things IF all else is equal. The "2 years" thing is definitely not correct either, especially as budgets are getting tighter. The time is right for this change, as the reality is that the market has stagnated. Even cheap phones have good cameras, good batteries, and run smooth now. There's been very little innovation in phones over the last 5 years that the average person actually cares about. But the average person is frustrated with surveillance capitalism, but feels like there's nothing they can do about it. Don't confuse exhaustion with apathy. They look similar, but are very different.

burningChrome 8mo ago
>> This is just a pessimist's fantasy. The average consumer doesn't care even one bit. Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? The Windows phone did all three way better than Android and was still a massive failure in the US and abroad.
- godelski 8mo ago
  I was never able to daily drive it but the people I knew that did would have disagreed. Regardless of reality perception also matters, unfortunately.

exabrial 8mo ago

The laptop segment is a poor example. Apple is the only company mass producing high performance arm laptops with a completely custom os that integrates to the hardware. You take what you can get. Your choices are: run windows (lol), or linux(whats linux?) system76 is the only company even coming close, but their performance is way behind mainstream unfortunately because they don't have the custom silicon capability that Apple does.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 8mo ago

The average consumer may not care but there's multiple overlapping segments that Motorola can capitalise on here: - tech consumers (i.e. the current GOS pixel market) - family members of tech consumers. i.e. tech consumers can hopefully now recommend stock grapheneOS on motorola to family members since it's not a custom ROM but just a stock device with official manufacturer support. - privacy/security conscious non-techy types. - non-techy users who want a device without AI or a bunch of unnecessary addon apps like google or samsung tend to preload on devices. - business IT optimising for security and minimal attack surface while sticking to COTS B2B and B2C options for corporate handhelds. Like this isn't the largest market ever but it's a sizeable and fairly loyal market because each one of these groups is fairly opposed to unnecessary change. It's safe, reliable, and sustainable growth in a broader market that is extremely hostile. And they are in particular targeting the business IT market since this announcement was made as part of their showcase on their new B2B cellular options.

RGamma 8mo ago
Don't underestimate tech-savy users' influence either. I could easily add 7+ people to the user base next replacement cycle.
- diacritical 8mo ago
  I could add 3 off the top of my head. Probably a couple more. Privacy conscious people who aren't techies. Some have tried Linux, some don't know what a "browser" or "SD card" is. If features like phone calls, SMS, the camera and most regular apps work (especially banking apps, sadly), they'll be happy and receive free indefinite support from me. I wouldn't use banking apps myself unless they open source them, but I'm willing to make a concession and support my friends' issues with such apps.
  - mulmen 8mo ago
    Bank tech sucks. I’m really surprised nobody has made a good online bank experience with no-nonsense APIs. This is a great opportunity for Motorola to partner with banks that commit to supporting their platform. The right online bank could be an ideal launch partner.

saidinesh5 8mo ago

It might be developer fantasy but half of the giants in the mobile market really did take off this way: * xiaomi with their miui skin/custom ROM - "bringing iOS like polish to Android" back then * oneplus with their initial devices with cyanogenmod - clean aosp interface without any bloat and lots of features. In fact, when my brother was buying phones for my mom (neither of them were really that technically inclined), he bought a Motorola mostly because "it doesn't have all those ads like redmi at the same price"

pants2 8mo ago
Indeed - I remember MKBHD praising the initial OnePlus thanks to that approach. Today he's got 20M subscribers. If Motorola gets big tech reviewers on their side it's a big market. Not to mention the more techy people in a family unit often make recommendations. I told my dad to buy a Nexus phone for that same reason which he still has, of course it's 10y old now so I'll probably have him upgrade to a Motorola.

reddalo 8mo ago

I've been buying Google Pixel for almost 10 years now, and Nexus phones before that, and my current Pixel is the last Google phone I'll buy. The ecosystem is closed, Google is speed-running to 100% evil, they're locking down APK installations, etc. I need to find a replacement, and with me a lot of tech friends and non-techies that just ask me for advice. The market is waiting for someone to step in; this is a golden chance for Motorola.

wpwpwpw 7mo ago
You can install GrapheneOS today on your Pixel.
- reddalo 7mo ago
  I wish I could. Unfortunately, I need both Google Wallet (I don't carry a physical wallet with me) and both my digital ID app and my bank app don't run on GrapheneOS. I'm annoyed a lot by that, but there's simply no alternative that I found.

varenc 8mo ago

I generally agree with the sentiment about the average consumer, but the commenter above called out MDM specifically, as in, corporate Mobile Device Management (MDM). I definitely see how large security conscious companies could be quite interested in a good GrapheneOS phone since it would alleviate fears about their corporate data getting leaked to Google, and really allow them to secure the phone in all the ways they want. So the market wouldn't just be niche privacy conscious consumer, but companies buying these phones for employees.

dleslie 8mo ago

When side-loading and adblock stops being available then the average consumer will flip a table. Most folks I know with Android devices have them running with adblockers and such; and their Android TV devices are _loaded_ with pirate streaming software. Because here in Canada you can buy devices preloaded with such things for a pittance over MSRP.

deleted 8mo ago

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boplicity 8mo ago

I wonder if there is an enterprise market for a fully audited, fully customizable phone that can be deployed across an entire organization, giving the institution full control of the software, apps, security, usage, etc.

nomel 8mo ago
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DANmode 8mo ago

> Is the phone smooth? Does it have a good camera? Does it have a good battery? Does it last more than 2 years? Currently, yes. These are easily achieved bars for a Graphene piece.

rprend 8mo ago

There is a hobbyist market for a tinker-phone; it’s just tiny. Like Raspberry Pi or Framework market cap vs Macbook market cap.

sieabahlpark 8mo ago

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