12 ms·

/e/OS is a complete, fully “deGoogled” mobile ecosystem

637 points by doener 8mo ago

lpcvoid 8mo ago
There's absolutely no reason to use /e/ when GrapheneOS exists. https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
- preisschild 8mo ago
  And even if GOS doesn't support your device (due to minimum security requirements) why not use upstream LineageOS?
  - przmk 8mo ago
    Because upstream LineageOS doesn't support microg out of the box. You can install it but it needs signature spoofing to pass Google's SafetyNet garbage. Bonus point for some roms that allow you to relock the bootloader after the install (iodéOS, CalyxOS).
    - wolvoleo 8mo ago
      Lineageos supports signature spoofing for microG these days! It did take them a long time to come around but they did in the end.
    - ForHackernews 8mo ago
      /e/OS also supports locked bootloaders for devices that have official builds (a smaller subset than the ones with community builds)
    - greentea23 8mo ago
      There is a version that makes only the changes to include microg, has OTA updates too: https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/
- FireInsight 8mo ago
  Unless you own some obscure phone that is not supported by GOS, Calyx or Iode, but is by /e/... Not sure how many of those exist...
- miroljub 8mo ago
  But GrapheneOS doesn't exist. It works only on a few devices created by Google, so their claim of being degoogled is a bit funny.
  - flexagoon 8mo ago
    > their claim of being degoogled is a bit funny. I don't think they use this term anywhere. It also now works on Motorola devices, it's on my HN feed literally right above this post.
    - szmarczak 8mo ago
      I have no idea where you got this information - the HN post is about partnership. It does not work on Motorola devices, at least not yet [1]. [1] https://grapheneos.org/releases https://grapheneos.org/releases
    - krige 8mo ago
      It doesn't "now work"; it may work on a future Motorola device that doesn't exist yet.
    - wolvoleo 8mo ago
      It doesn't yet work on Motorola devices. It is going to become available on selected Motorola devices at some point in the future.
    - miroljub 8mo ago
      > It also now works on Motorola devices, it's on my HN feed literally right above this post. Did you read the article you mentioned? There's not yet a single non-Google device that can run GrapheneOS.
  - _ache_ 8mo ago
    I must agree, you are right, GOS is only on Pixel phones. But we have to keep in mind that /e/ has a lot of problems, the only one solved is sending data to Google. The security aspect of the OS is problematic and some key elements of a privacy seem questioning (AI integration, commercial collaborations, ...). Fix: IA => AI typo and various English errors.
- mrbn100ful 8mo ago
  Not everything have to be perfect. For some user, /e/ is more approachable (Friendly and colorful UI) I could not get my mother to use GrapheneOS, /e/ is a lot simpler. Still miles better than to use a Default ROM from most OEM.
  - ploum 8mo ago
    Exactly! If you can use GrapheneOS, good for you but what /e/OS offers is: - Usable Android with your usual Android app (banking, etc) - No data sent to Google by default - Easier interface with nearly no bloatware - Available easily on many smartphones, including older ones - Extending the life of some smartphones The price to pay is: - Some Murena cloud bloatware - Android security patches are sometimes delayed - Security is not on par with GrapheneOS If your main concern is protecting your privacy from Google and extending the life of your smartphone without breaking a sweat, /e/OS is probably the best option. If your main concern is protecting against state actors attacks or very specific threats, then GrapheneOS might be better. /e/OS works really great for non-techie users. I’ve done it in my family.
    - microtonal 8mo ago
      I have phones with both, but I don't necessarily agree that /e/OS is easier. E.g. things like doing or restoring in-app purchases often do not work, even when logging in through microG. Want that nice backup option that Signal is now offering? Well, good luck, you cannot purchase it on /e/OS (at least I couldn't). In general when it comes to compatibility, my experience is that GrapheneOS is better because it can use real Google Play Services, albeit sandboxed. I think you can use the Play Store on /e/OS as well, but it's going to have higher privileges. No data sent to Google by default Not true. /e/OS does send data to Google by default: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-nicht-zwangslaeufig-sicher-custom-roms-teil6/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-... They also use Google for assisted GPS when you use it, eSIM provisioning, widevine provisioning. Last time I checked, microG on /e/OS also downloads a Google binary blob for SafetyNet. Besides analytics, if you install Google Apps (e.g. for Android Auto), many of them get higher privileges on /e/OS. The price to pay is: I would also add installing F-Droid apps (if you use App Lounge) through 'CleanAPK', without wanting to reveal why this is necessary or who owns/maintains CleanAPK. They do quite a lot of fishy stuff. It may be incompetence, but yeah... If your main concern is protecting against state actors attacks or very specific threats This always sounds like systems like GrapheneOS are for paranoid people. But this is basically you if you ever go to a demonstration (e.g. in the US) or cross borders of certain countries (e.g. of the US), sadly things like Cellebrite have become very common. Then suddenly layered protection, not running years behind in security patches, a duress pin, or rebooting after not unlocking for a few minutes to get back to BFU aren't so bad. (IANAL, figure out yourself which of these are legal and not destruction of evidence.)
- wolvoleo 8mo ago
  There is when you have a phone that isn't a pixel.
  - nosioptar 8mo ago
    Graphene doesnt even support all usable pixels. My pixel 3a isn't supported, but is by eos, lineage, and mobian (if you don't need volte).
    - lpcvoid 8mo ago
      Your phone is too old, it doesn't get any security updates anymore since years now. Idk why you even still use it?
      - nosioptar 8mo ago
        My phone isnt too old, it still gets updates on Lineageos. I've got no reason to replace it.
        akimbostrawman 8mo ago
        It gets Android OS feature updates not security/firmware updates. GOS aims to be the most secure OS possible without compromise so they aren't supporting devices without them. Pixel 3a only offered 3 years of security updates. Current GOS supported devices support up to 7 years.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- StingyJelly 8mo ago
  Even on non-pixel devices, unless you really want to use the /e/ "ecosystem, there are probably better options like LineageOS for microG iodéOS. (/e/ used to be heavily based on an outdated version of LineageOS for microG. I'm not sure what the current state is after I settled on second-hand pixel with graphene)
  - Vinnl 8mo ago
    iodé is available for my device as well, but it looked fairly similar to /e/OS to me (and the latter has an official partnership with my phone's manufacturer). What makes it a better option - should I switch?
    - StingyJelly 8mo ago
      When I looked into it, /e/ constantly used to be many months late with security updates. LineageOS for microg and iodé were much quicker (~ 1 month max which is still not that great).
      - Vinnl 8mo ago
        Hmm, possibly I'm looking in the wrong place, but as far as I can remember, I've been getting new /e/OS versions about every month, and looking at the release notes [1], they usually seem to include the latest "Android security patches", which I assume is what's relevant - unless there's something else that should also be included? [1] https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/releases/-/releases https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/releases/-/releases
        StingyJelly 8mo ago
        Yes, seems like they got it down to ~2 weeks, goo! Good to know, that should be on par with Lineageos.
- dirasieb 8mo ago
  is "/e/ supports my phone while graphene only supports google pixels" not a good reason?
- Rumengol 8mo ago
  There absolutely is when your concern is not only moving away from Google but also using sustainable hardware like Fairphone, which GrapheneOS doesn't support afaik.
- bornfreddy 8mo ago
  As someone who switched from FP4 with /e/OS to GrapheneOS - absolutely not true. My reason for switching was a bug where the phone calls didn't display the caller number. So I switched to GOS in hope it would be better... and it is, but not in all areas. For example their insistence on not supporting MicroG leads to poor UX, because let's face it, you can't trust Google services, even sandboxed, to not syphon tons of data into the cloud. MicroG was easybto use for privacy. They also seem to be very opinionated about (not) using a firewall for privacy, like NetGuard, instead recommending some weird alternatives like DNS firewalls. And don't get me started on their icons - I don't mind ugly-ish icons, but they are taking the ugliness to a whole new level. GrapheneOS is not a bad OS, but it is very opinionated, and they (heavily) prioritize security over privacy. When I turn FP4 on, I still like it way better than GOS. Still, I like seeing who is calling, so I'm not going back... Ymmv.
  - ysnp 8mo ago
    I am not a project member so I cannot speak for GrapheneOS, but maybe I can help clear up some misunderstandings. >insistence on not supporting MicroG leads to poor UX, The problem they are trying to solve is apps not working without the presence of Google Mobile Services or Google Play. They don't want to compromise by having a component with high privileges integrated in their image that involves security issues like signature spoofing. MicroG will send less data to Google partly because it is simply an incomplete implementation of the features offered by GMS (sanboxed-google-play appp compatibility is quite a bit higher), partly because the access is more granular or there are choices offered for services like location (GrapheneOS provides non-Google location services and community support on only installing and enabling the parts you need for specific app features to work). UX is not adversely affected, but if you want to use a privileged app bypassing security checks and sending data to Google anyway then you have the freedom to compile microG with it integrated if you would like. >They also seem to be very opinionated about (not) using a firewall for privacy, like NetGuard, instead recommending some weird alternatives like DNS firewalls GrapheneOS tries to implement or end encourage sustainable approaches to privacy and security, and this partially means approaches that don't break if the adversary knows what you are doing. Egress/outbound traffic filtering is fundamentally unworkable. Apps do not have to connect to known privacy a invasive third party domains to violate your privacy or expose your data to extra parties, they can simply send anything they want to their own servers and do anything they like with the data. From my understanding this is why GrapheneOS do not want to encourage the approach of blocking apps from connecting to certain domains/addresses. Instead they tackle the problem at its source by providing a direct AND indirect network access toggle which cuts off an apps access to the outernet without letting the app know (pretends the network is down). This makes it non trivial for apps to exfiltrate data and as a side effect can provide benefits like data conservation (for capped plans). >instead recommending some weird alternatives like DNS firewalls. DNS based solutions are offered (not promoted) if you want more control over your DNS query resolvers or you want to improve your quality of experience by blocking advertisements and malvertising domains. >they (heavily) prioritize security over privacy. Can you point out another OS project with real privacy features like a network permission, sensors data access permission, contact access scopes, storage access scopes, per connection MAC randomisation and so on? https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm They have even more plans for privacy like location scopes, anti-fingerprinting for Vanadium browser and maybe AnonymisedDNSCrypt/Oblivious DNS and probably more they haven't mentioned. If you suggest some more on their issue tracker they may get back to it when they have the resources.
geff82 8mo ago
How is the experience in practice? What works, what doesn't? Are updates prompt and regular?
- _Soulou 8mo ago
  Overall, everything works pretty well for me (user for multiple years), except all apps which are too bound too Google Play Services as microG is not stubbing/implementing all APIs. So all apps with premium subscription you can only handle through in-app purchase, usually won't work. I've heard that some banking apps are not working correctly either as not "secured" enough device, in my personal experience, they all worked, it's really a case-by-case logics here. For the upgrade, OTA upgrade around every month, and it has always worked smoothly
purkka 8mo ago
I wonder how this compares to GrapheneOS in practice. >Operated by Murena, your Murena Workspace account @murena.io is at the centre of the ecosystem, allowing to store, back up and retrieve your data safely on remote servers. This sounds like their version is somewhat married to Murena. While probably better than Google, still not independent. They're also advertising features such as "hiding your IP address [...] when you feel like it" – which sounds a lot like a VPN – without mentioning much about who the traffic is going through or how they might log it.
- amelius 8mo ago
  Yeah it really looks like they are trying to solve too many things. This is usually not a good sign. I'd prefer to have an OS provider that does one thing well.
- bramhaag 8mo ago
  > I wonder how this compares to GrapheneOS in practice. https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm is a fairly complete comparison. One of GrapheneOS' biggest features is that they sandbox Google services (if you choose to install them), whereas e/OS gives them privileged access by default (via microG). Calling it a "degoogled" OS while microG uses Google's proprietary blobs is... a choice. The GrapheneOS developers are very sceptical of e/OS (https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/search?f=tweets&q=e/os https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/search?f=tweets&q=e/os), but you should obviously take biases into account here. Murena's CEO occasionally participates too: https://xcancel.com/gael_duval/search?f=tweets&q=grapheneos https://xcancel.com/gael_duval/search?f=tweets&q=grapheneos
- Vinnl 8mo ago
  I'm on /e/OS and don't use Murena Workspace (which I think is just a Nextcloud instance that they host). For the past couple of years in which I've used it, I have felt zero pressure to use Murena Workspace. Though I imagine it might be neat if you host your own Nextcloud instance, which might be nicely integrated too. (That said, yes, I don't quite trust their VPN or app store, since it's unclear who's running it - in the latter's case, I imagine that's also a legal matter.)
- 8mo ago
goldenarm 8mo ago
Tweaking user-hostile OSes into user-friendly ones is impressive, but not sustainable. Even worse, it slowing us down from leaving Android entirely. Look at the AdBlocker crackdown of Google Chrome. Every single chrome-fork has shut down MV2 extensions, even Brave is about to do it, because it is impossible to maintain features that complex on a browser that Google spends >$1B/year to develop. Same story for /e/ and GrapheneOS, the day Google pulls the plug on source code releases, god knows how long they will last. We should focus our efforts on truly open platforms.
- amelius 8mo ago
  You don't have to use Chrome or Chromium.
  - goldenarm 8mo ago
    Yes fortunately we have browser alternatives. But on mobile, my bank and my government force me to use the Android/iOS duopoly.
    - jonathanstrange 8mo ago
      How do they do that? I'm not doubting that, it's an honest question. I understand how this works on Apple phones but I don't understand why an identity or attestation service cannot be replaced by another one by the alternative operating system when the hardware is not controlled by Google. Does Google have keys in tamper-proof chips? How else would those banks determine their apps are on the right phone? Or do those apps use Google authentication directly over the Internet, using hard-coded Google public keys?
      - well_ackshually 8mo ago
        Depending on the level of security you ask for Play Integrity, it can be: * is this device rooted, is it an unsigned build ? * Device is signed, but is it part of the blessed signing keys ? is play services untampered with ? * Additional checks over the lifetime of the device. You could fully trust the results of Play Integrity on device, but you can also send the returned token to your server, and your server then contacts play integrity to validate that token. So unless you know how to spoof those encrypted tokens, you won't go very far. https://developer.android.com/google/play/integrity/overview https://developer.android.com/google/play/integrity/overview
octoclaw 8mo ago
[dead]
- moebrowne 8mo ago
  > Updates lag behind GrapheneOS significantly. You might be right but there are new /e/OS releases every month, that's enough for me: https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/releases/-/releases https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/releases/-/releases
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
- Nemo_bis 8mo ago
  What "dependency"? I don't use the Murena cloud at all on my /e/OS device.
eMPee584 8mo ago
PostmarketOS is a complete degoogled mobile ecosystem, actually. How about we commit resources into that?
- preisschild 8mo ago
  Personally I'm pretty happy with GrapheneOS (Android AOSP distribution) and also donating to it. It works for me, its licensed under a free software license, there are plenty of cool free software applications available. I'm familiar with Android application development if I need something custom. Unless Android (itself, not Google Play Services because I don't depend on them) goes closed source I don't see a reason to switch to something (imo) inferior. I have nothing PmOS, phosh and other free mobile smartphone projects and will probably redirect my resources towards them if Android goes closed source.
amelius 8mo ago
I don't like names that are difficult to google. But then again, maybe that's the point :)
chrisjj 8mo ago
Nice, but.... > a unique privacy enhanced environment. ... consider proofreading.
deleted 8mo ago
[deleted]
janmarsal 8mo ago
Not that it matters but I just noticed certain titles on their website can be edited. For example the text "Use our /e/OS Installer" can be modified and I noticed it because I accidentally pasted my clipboard there. I suppose contenteditable should be set to "false". fuck me i'm doing work even though i should be working right now
fransje26 8mo ago
The irony of advertising a privacy-enabled de-googled system, and then telling me that my Firefox browser is not support, and that I should use Edge, Opera or Chrome instead.... Browsing: https://e.foundation/installer/ https://e.foundation/installer/ Reply: https://imgur.com/a/al1Q9DM https://imgur.com/a/al1Q9DM
- RoryH 8mo ago
  Hmmm, It seems to require the WebUSB API: https://caniuse.com/?search=webusb https://caniuse.com/?search=webusb
  - amiga386 8mo ago
    If the site can detect that it can't use WebUSB, it can give you instructions on how to download and flash the mobile OS, not tell you to fuck off. Compare: https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/tokay/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/tokay/
    - onli 8mo ago
      That's not an installer, that's a device page. It's the specific functionality needed here that Firefox lacks that makes the /e/ page show the warning, unlike the lineage page that does not have the problem in the first place.
      - fransje26 8mo ago
        The fun part is that I got to this installer page by clicking on "Check device compatibility" on the https://e.foundation/e-os/ https://e.foundation/e-os/ page.. So I was actually expecting a device page, not a WebUSB program..
        onli 8mo ago
        Okay, that makes your complaint very understandable.
    - 8mo ago
bluebarbet 8mo ago
Got a "Your browser is not supported" error for using Firefox on their website (device compatibility page). Very poor first impression.
- moebrowne 8mo ago
  The installer page requires WebUSB which Firefox wont support. There are a list of supported devices here: https://doc.e.foundation/devices https://doc.e.foundation/devices
trelliumD 8mo ago
I have both a Jolla C2 phone, and an E/Os device, on a nothing CMS1 phone. Both are great. I like the Jolla Phone for its SailfishOS, which has great UI/Ux. I am less enthusiastic about the hardware. (good enough though) The E/OS really is good, all apps work good, and really much is done for privacy protection. But if the hardware is more performant, and with a few extra features i'd still opt for SailfishOS
- ptman 8mo ago
  https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-phone-preorder https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-phone-preorder
soufron 8mo ago
Well E/OS is mainly about privacy. And about getting rid of Google. And it works. To me that's more important and it's a better vision.
- microtonal 8mo ago
  I you ever cross a border or attend a demonstration, privacy requires security. Unfortunately, /e/OS (and most hardware) is severely lacking in that department.
  - rrr_oh_man 8mo ago
    Why? Care to elaborate?
    - preisschild 8mo ago
      https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
      - rrr_oh_man 8mo ago
        That is amazing, thank you!
madeofpalk 8mo ago
Why is this a complete graphical clone of (old version) iOS? This seems like the worst of both worlds.
ralferoo 8mo ago
Honestly, I don't quite understand this. I get the appeal of degoogling, but this seems to just be replacing that with alternatives run by another commercial company, just one I've never heard of before. Why does it even need "One account for your privacy" ... "Operated by Murena, your Murena Workspace account @murena.io is at the centre of the ecosystem" when it'd be even better to have everything on-device without an account at all. Even more, Murena seems to be owned by Qwant who seem to be in the business of selling a search engine, and while they currently claim to be all about user privacy, this is basically exactly how Google started nearly 30 years ago. I wonder if they'd be happy if, for instance, somebody took this system and debundled Murena and switched it to using duckduckgo. Would they embrace that too, or sue them into oblivion? EDIT: maybe I was too hasty. I've just seen that it's open source and it seems like you can self-host the required cloud parts: https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/infra/ecloud-selfhosting https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/infra/ecloud-selfhosting
- microtonal 8mo ago
  Even more, Murena seems to be owned by Qwant Source? (would be interesting if it was)
  - ralferoo 8mo ago
    I think I was wrong. Googling suggest that Qwant is owned by Octave Klaba, the founder and majority owner of OVH. Murena seems to be owned by Gaël Duval. It's just from their website a lot of mentions of Murena seemed to say powered by Qwant, or similar, and so it looked like they were closely linked.
ergocoder 8mo ago
I worked at Google before, so I trust Google more than these random organizations that claim they are better than Google at handling sensitive info.
- rapnie 8mo ago
  That is all nice and well, but Google is primarily an advertisement business. A huge corporation that gained enormous power that operates only to satisfy its own self interest. So that gives us non-Googlers more to think about than just that consideration to take into account.
  - Itoldmyselfso 8mo ago
    It is an entirely realistic scenario which afaik data backs up that most people don't change their default privacy related settings which Google profits from, but in case of actually setting their provided privacy settings ON, they do work.
- NicuCalcea 8mo ago
  What do you mean by "better [...] at handling sensitive info"? As in, they are more technically competent, or they will treat your data more ethically? I don't think these projects claim they've got better infrastructure for handling private data, just that they won't sell it to advertisers. I trust Google are experts at handling my data, I just don't want them to.
- ForHackernews 8mo ago
  On the other hand, I would trust a randomly chosen organization more than the world's largest adtech firm.
- megous 8mo ago
  Better at siphoning out all the sensitive info, maybe.
- afewquarks 8mo ago
  [dead]
einpoklum 8mo ago
At the link, I see a lot of text about a company called Murena. Including: > Operated by Murena, your Murena Workspace account @murena.io is at the > centre of the ecosystem, allowing to store, back up and retrieve your > data safely on remote servers. That seems to suggest that we would be replacing one large overbearing corporation with a smaller and less-evil overbearing corporation. Is e/OS an open-source facade for Murena?
- tremon 8mo ago
  /e/OS and Murena are the same company. Initially, they used the name /e/ everywhere, but a single letter is not searchable on the web, so they rebranded to Murena. Everything is now called Murena except the OS itself. from https://gael-duval.medium.com/murena-smartphones-and-cloud-will-protect-our-privacy-357788a1e585 https://gael-duval.medium.com/murena-smartphones-and-cloud-w... : > as we are reaching more and more people and progressively catching interested from a mainstream audience, we have to introduce a new, strong brand, easier to use, easier to refer to and easier to share with people.
bramhaag 8mo ago
> open-source means auditable privacy This is what that auditing actually reveals: * /e/OS sends user speech data to OpenAI without consent [1], and thought this was ok until they got caught [2]. * /e/OS massively delays security patches, and calls this a "standard industry practice" [3]. Meanwhile, GrapheneOS' opt-in security preview releases provide early access to security updates prior to official disclosure [4]. Also see [0] (Security update speed) and [7] (WebView being 40 security updates behind). * microG downloads and executes proprietary Google binaries in a privileged environment [5] [6]. You can obviously not audit these, nor should this count as "degoogled". * microG still phones home to Google by default (android.clients.google.com for device registration check-in, mtalk.google.com for FCM push, firebaseinstallations.googleapis.com for SIM activations) [7]. [0] has a comparison of popular privacy and security-focused Android-based OS, which paints the whole picture. Privacy-friendly does not necessarily mean secure, but in this case "privacy-friendly" is quite a stretch already. [0] https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm [1] https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114880528716479708 https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114880528716479708 [2] https://community.e.foundation/t/clarification-about-voice-to-text-stt-in-e-os-and-whats-next/75121 https://community.e.foundation/t/clarification-about-voice-t... [3] https://community.e.foundation/t/e-os-and-security-updates/72384 https://community.e.foundation/t/e-os-and-security-updates/7... [4] https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/27068-grapheneos-security-preview-releases https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/27068-grapheneos-security-p... [5] https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/blob/e19a9985204ec8329c1d958f41e0da9465061a57/play-services-droidguard/core/src/main/kotlin/org/microg/gms/droidguard/core/NetworkHandleProxyFactory.kt#L175 https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/blob/e19a9985204ec8329c1d9... [6] https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/blob/e19a9985204ec8329c1d958f41e0da9465061a57/play-services-droidguard/src/main/kotlin/org/microg/gms/droidguard/HandleProxyFactory.kt#L101 https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/blob/e19a9985204ec8329c1d9... [7] https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-nicht-zwangslaeufig-sicher-custom-roms-teil6/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-...
- microtonal 8mo ago
  And they give privileged access to a bunch of Google apps if you need them for e.g. Android Auto: https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/GmsCore/-/blob/a9e102567518ec77f447d66f558dcd24d7690264/play-services-base/core/src/main/kotlin/org/microg/gms/common/KnownGooglePackages.kt#L209 https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/GmsCore/-/blob/a9e102567518...
raphinou 8mo ago
I have been using e/OS but moved away when an upgrade to the next version required to manually wipe the device. I could cope with the little inconveniences of a degoogled phone, but wiping the device myself following a unclear procedure was too much for me. My phone is not a hacking subject. It's a tool. Still, it worked reasonably well and I would have upgraded and kept using it if the upgrade had been easier.
- Wilder7977 8mo ago
  I am on e/OS since 2021 with a FP3 and, for what is worth, I never had to reinstall, wipe or anything. My phone just had it's 5th birthday and it has been a single continuous set of updates. I know the versions differ by model, so perhaps your model was not as well supported.
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - raphinou 8mo ago
    It was the gigaset gs190. I've used it quite some time with e/os, but one day the automatic updates stopped working and I discovered this reinstallation requirement.
HunOL 8mo ago
I'm currently looking for a new Android phone. I don't like the Pixel and deep integration with Google. I looked at the Fairphone with /e/OS and the Pixel with GrapheneOS, but unfortunately there's no certainty that everything will work or where the boundary is between Google Android and "clean" Android. For example, it turned out that Android Auto is essentially Google Auto and I don't what find out what is dependent on Google. I want something that just works. A phone isn't something I want to tinker with like Linux ten years ago. So basically the choice comes down to Samsung and Chinese brands.
- pferde 8mo ago
  Pixel's "deep integration with Google" is in the OS, so if you replace the OS with GrapheneOS, there is no deep integration anymore.
  - HunOL 8mo ago
    Yes, but I made an argument about /e/OS and GrapheneOS. You never knows what will work or stop working.
    - pferde 8mo ago
      Sure, but I was only responding to the reservation you expressed about Pixel: "I don't like the Pixel and deep integration with Google."
    - Itoldmyselfso 8mo ago
      Motorola just made a deal with GrapheneOS, so I'd vager they're going to be around for longer on that basis alone.
- Georgelemental 8mo ago
  GrapheneOS has sandboxed Google Play, which allows using most Google services (including Android Auto) while limiting their deep OS access.
scosman 8mo ago
Why rip off Apple design so much here (see homescreen image). Seems like a lot of unnecessary effort. Plus it’s not done well enough so instead of looking like itself, it looks like a bad ripoff.
LorenDB 8mo ago
For how polished the launcher looks, it's a bit jarring to install /e/ and realize that under the hood, all the apps are just running a very stock Material theme. I'm not shaming the developers; developing a custom theme is no doubt an involved task that they don't have the resources for.
jathul 8mo ago
why is there not any support for latest models of manufacturers, as older models are not for sale now.
trilogic 8mo ago
Sir, you just made the world a better place, thank you.
hl0dwig 8mo ago
As an average user, I don't understand all the ins and outs of an Android system, but I'm very happy to use /e/OS on my Fairphone 4 every day. I don't have a Google account, but I can still use all the apps I need, including French banking apps (CMB, Endenred+). My only regret is that the simplified installation tool didn't work (my FP4 kept restarting), so I had to install it manually, which makes it inaccessible to users who are even less tech-savvy than me. Finally, I still think it's an excellent alternative to Android, but we need to go further and allow our smartphones to work with other operating systems, particularly Linux. I am hopeful that one day we will have a Linux OS for our smartphones that performs as well as /e/OS (I have heard about Jolla smartphones and Sailfish OS, but unfortunately I have not tested them).
odeckmyn 8mo ago
I wanted to add a perspective from actual daily use, because a lot of this thread sounds theoretical. I’ve been using a Murena/Fairphone running /e/OS as my primary phone for a while now, and honestly the experience has been much smoother than I expected. My banking apps work, GPS/navigation works reliably, messaging and everyday apps behave normally — I’m not constantly fighting the device or giving things up. After the initial setup, it just feels like a normal smartphone, except noticeably quieter in terms of tracking and background noise. What surprised me most is that this isn’t a “privacy experiment” anymore. It’s a usable, stable daily driver. I still get the convenience people worry about losing, but with far fewer ties to Google services by default. I think a lot of people hesitate because they assume moving away from stock Android means breaking essential apps or living with constant friction. That hasn’t been my experience at all. If you’re curious but unsure, it’s genuinely worth trying — the barrier is much lower than it used to be, and you might find you don’t miss as much as you expect.
- Mordisquitos 8mo ago
  I can vouch for your experience as mine has been the same, also on a Fairphone on which I installed /e/OS. I could have literally written the same comment myself — em-dash usage included!
  - rrr_oh_man 8mo ago
    It's not just an OS, it's an /e/OS.
    - amelius 8mo ago
      Yeah, it's an OS that gives a browser error because it thinks the name is a path.
      - Mordisquitos 8mo ago
        Yes, their choice of name was not their greatest achievement.
amaccuish 8mo ago
But can't relock the bootloader on a Pixel 9 since it is "community supported" :(
astrolx 8mo ago
My phone (Teracube) is running /e/OS now for 2 years. Nearly everything works out of the box (bank apps, e-identity apps etc ..). The only issue I have is that the app I use to take contactless payment on the phone via NFC does not work (while it works using Android).
decasteve 8mo ago
If you block Google, as much of it as possible anyway, on your firewall, does the device work/install? I tried /e/ and Lineage about a year ago, but neither of them worked when Google was blocked completely. The only one that made no requests to Google was Graphene.
- afewquarks 8mo ago
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IX-103 8mo ago
So we replace an OS owned by a search engine (Google) with an OS owned by a search engine (Murena)? You're going to need to give me more details than that before I consider switching.
- Mordisquitos 8mo ago
  I'm an /e/OS user with a Murena account and I had never even heard of Murena being "a search engine". After searching (on DDG), I see that they in June 2025 they launched a collaboration with the Qwant search engine to launch a Murena-branded version: https://murena.com/discover-murena-find-your-new-privacy-first-search-engine-in-e-os/ https://murena.com/discover-murena-find-your-new-privacy-fir... That does not make it "an OS owned by a search engine".
  - chneu 8mo ago
    Also, Qwant ain't bad. I've been using it for about a year.
mghackerlady 8mo ago
I've long been a fan of murena. I would likely be using their services if I hadn't discovered disroot :)
huflungdung 8mo ago
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gigatexal 8mo ago
Is this DOA if major OEMs like Motorola partner with a project like GrapheneOS? https://motorolanews.com/motorola-three-new-b2b-solutions-at-mwc-2026/ https://motorolanews.com/motorola-three-new-b2b-solutions-at...
deleted 8mo ago
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JCattheATM 8mo ago
What advantages does /e/OS offer over installing LineageOS without Gapps, which is a necessary step you must explicitly take if you want them?
aidenn0 8mo ago
I can't check my device compatibility without Chrome or edge. Is there a reason I can't just see a list of compatible devices to confirm (as I suspect) that it won't work on my phone?
- accoil 8mo ago
  Yeah, not a fan of having to plug my phone in for detection.... That page should at least include a link here: https://doc.e.foundation/devices https://doc.e.foundation/devices
Eric_WVGG 8mo ago
Looks cool, but burns a bit of credibility by ripping off Apple's icon designs. There has to be some fresh-out-of-college graphic designer in Berlin ready to make their name by designing a custom icon library for a project like this, ask around.
nphardon 8mo ago
I went *browserless on my device and it has solved my screen compulsion issues with very little downside. It has been the most effective step I've ever taken. I realized I really love msg'ing friends, having access to maps and navigation, banking, just a handful of apps (no google apps), and that all along it was the browser. *ios doesnt let you delete Safari so I set a 10 minute timer on it, and i dont have any adblock or content filtering enabled, so it's essentially only good for brief checks (auto-shop phone number, quick news check, etc.) but is useless for anything beyond that.
- unethical_ban 8mo ago
  I have been thinking the exact same thing! That while I "need" a smartphone for secure communications, banking and nav while traveling, it's Instagram and compulsive news/reddit consumption that keeps me instinctively checking my phone. I think I need to do the same thing on gOS.
  - nphardon 8mo ago
    Yes! Also shopping is an insidious thing. Now it's no longer a shopping tool. For me a common flow would be like, 1) think about some thing 2) instantly I'm scroll shopping somewhere 3) remember I'm too frugal to buy things 4) 10 minutes lost to the void. It's been really nice for me to break that particular cycle.
- toddsiegel 8mo ago
  Web views still work? I think that was part of Apple's rationale, that is was all coupled together. I assume that’s not the case here?
nicexe 8mo ago
Once I read the title, I thought this was about Enlightenment but for mobile phones. I can't be the only one that thought of this.
whalesalad 8mo ago
/e/OS, Pop!_OS, ... the old adage will never be defeated: > There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things.
Denatonium 8mo ago
MicroG does an excellent job at reimplementating most of Google's proprietary APIs on the client side. I don't know how feasible this is, but it would be cool if there were open-source drop-in replacements for Google's server-sided APIs that app developers could use to replace Google's services with alternate servers running open source software.
p0w3n3d 8mo ago
That's great! However, when I see "murena unified account" I feel like one thing is replaced with another. I'd like to be able to synchronize my android-like open os phone with my own cloud. It's really not a rocket science...
- Sateallia 8mo ago
  I've been using /e/OS on my phone for a few months now. It comes with built-in DAVx5. Their hosted offering is just another provider and using your own cloud provider is the same process as using theirs. Even their device locator integration is independent from their hosted offering. Of all the Android distributions I've used, it's the one that does providing a hosted service best and it was honestly refreshing.
dismalaf 8mo ago
https://e.foundation/legal-notice-privacy/ https://e.foundation/legal-notice-privacy/ Read this. They still collect much of the same data Google does. Why should I trust them over Google? And even if they might be morally better, it's basically impossible for them to have better security than Google. If I were to want a Google-free phone, I'd want it to be everyone-free. Not replacing Google with some French corporation (even if it's non-profit).
rekabis 8mo ago
LMAO-class first impressions: builds entire UI into a carbon-copy of iOS Like, I thought I was looking at an older version of iOS with those screenshots. It took a few of the screenshot flips to realize that things were subtly off and not-iOS. I mean, okay: use what works. But it’s amusing nonetheless.
HackerThemAll 8mo ago
I'm waiting for de-Appled iPhone ecosystem then.
nout 8mo ago
I think the edge that will actually bring new widely used mobile linux based OS is going to be gaming devices. Steam Deck and many of retrogaming devices are already running Linux. Some devices have option for user to either boot linux or to boot android. They are selling, they have support and some market fit already. One can guess that there will be Steam Deck mini at some point and that could be followed by Steam Phone...
BLACKCRAB 8mo ago
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akimbostrawman 8mo ago
They have claimed to be degoogled for a very long time despite it regularly connecting to google. I don't see a reason to suddenly believe them unless they are as transparent and actually without Google connections like GrapheneOS. https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections
smm11 8mo ago
I told Claude to make me an operating system for a Pixel 7 that's not based on Android. We'll see.

637 points by doener 8mo ago

There's absolutely no reason to use /e/ when GrapheneOS exists. https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm

preisschild 8mo ago
And even if GOS doesn't support your device (due to minimum security requirements) why not use upstream LineageOS?
- przmk 8mo ago
  Because upstream LineageOS doesn't support microg out of the box. You can install it but it needs signature spoofing to pass Google's SafetyNet garbage. Bonus point for some roms that allow you to relock the bootloader after the install (iodéOS, CalyxOS).
  - wolvoleo 8mo ago
    Lineageos supports signature spoofing for microG these days! It did take them a long time to come around but they did in the end.
  - ForHackernews 8mo ago
    /e/OS also supports locked bootloaders for devices that have official builds (a smaller subset than the ones with community builds)
  - greentea23 8mo ago
    There is a version that makes only the changes to include microg, has OTA updates too: https://lineage.microg.org/ https://lineage.microg.org/
FireInsight 8mo ago
Unless you own some obscure phone that is not supported by GOS, Calyx or Iode, but is by /e/... Not sure how many of those exist...
miroljub 8mo ago
But GrapheneOS doesn't exist. It works only on a few devices created by Google, so their claim of being degoogled is a bit funny.
- flexagoon 8mo ago
  > their claim of being degoogled is a bit funny. I don't think they use this term anywhere. It also now works on Motorola devices, it's on my HN feed literally right above this post.
  - szmarczak 8mo ago
    I have no idea where you got this information - the HN post is about partnership. It does not work on Motorola devices, at least not yet [1]. [1] https://grapheneos.org/releases https://grapheneos.org/releases
  - krige 8mo ago
    It doesn't "now work"; it may work on a future Motorola device that doesn't exist yet.
  - wolvoleo 8mo ago
    It doesn't yet work on Motorola devices. It is going to become available on selected Motorola devices at some point in the future.
  - miroljub 8mo ago
    > It also now works on Motorola devices, it's on my HN feed literally right above this post. Did you read the article you mentioned? There's not yet a single non-Google device that can run GrapheneOS.
- _ache_ 8mo ago
  I must agree, you are right, GOS is only on Pixel phones. But we have to keep in mind that /e/ has a lot of problems, the only one solved is sending data to Google. The security aspect of the OS is problematic and some key elements of a privacy seem questioning (AI integration, commercial collaborations, ...). Fix: IA => AI typo and various English errors.
mrbn100ful 8mo ago
Not everything have to be perfect. For some user, /e/ is more approachable (Friendly and colorful UI) I could not get my mother to use GrapheneOS, /e/ is a lot simpler. Still miles better than to use a Default ROM from most OEM.
- ploum 8mo ago
  Exactly! If you can use GrapheneOS, good for you but what /e/OS offers is: - Usable Android with your usual Android app (banking, etc) - No data sent to Google by default - Easier interface with nearly no bloatware - Available easily on many smartphones, including older ones - Extending the life of some smartphones The price to pay is: - Some Murena cloud bloatware - Android security patches are sometimes delayed - Security is not on par with GrapheneOS If your main concern is protecting your privacy from Google and extending the life of your smartphone without breaking a sweat, /e/OS is probably the best option. If your main concern is protecting against state actors attacks or very specific threats, then GrapheneOS might be better. /e/OS works really great for non-techie users. I’ve done it in my family.
  - microtonal 8mo ago
    I have phones with both, but I don't necessarily agree that /e/OS is easier. E.g. things like doing or restoring in-app purchases often do not work, even when logging in through microG. Want that nice backup option that Signal is now offering? Well, good luck, you cannot purchase it on /e/OS (at least I couldn't). In general when it comes to compatibility, my experience is that GrapheneOS is better because it can use real Google Play Services, albeit sandboxed. I think you can use the Play Store on /e/OS as well, but it's going to have higher privileges. No data sent to Google by default Not true. /e/OS does send data to Google by default: https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-nicht-zwangslaeufig-sicher-custom-roms-teil6/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-... They also use Google for assisted GPS when you use it, eSIM provisioning, widevine provisioning. Last time I checked, microG on /e/OS also downloads a Google binary blob for SafetyNet. Besides analytics, if you install Google Apps (e.g. for Android Auto), many of them get higher privileges on /e/OS. The price to pay is: I would also add installing F-Droid apps (if you use App Lounge) through 'CleanAPK', without wanting to reveal why this is necessary or who owns/maintains CleanAPK. They do quite a lot of fishy stuff. It may be incompetence, but yeah... If your main concern is protecting against state actors attacks or very specific threats This always sounds like systems like GrapheneOS are for paranoid people. But this is basically you if you ever go to a demonstration (e.g. in the US) or cross borders of certain countries (e.g. of the US), sadly things like Cellebrite have become very common. Then suddenly layered protection, not running years behind in security patches, a duress pin, or rebooting after not unlocking for a few minutes to get back to BFU aren't so bad. (IANAL, figure out yourself which of these are legal and not destruction of evidence.)
wolvoleo 8mo ago
There is when you have a phone that isn't a pixel.
- nosioptar 8mo ago
  Graphene doesnt even support all usable pixels. My pixel 3a isn't supported, but is by eos, lineage, and mobian (if you don't need volte).
  - lpcvoid 8mo ago
    Your phone is too old, it doesn't get any security updates anymore since years now. Idk why you even still use it?
    - nosioptar 8mo ago
      My phone isnt too old, it still gets updates on Lineageos. I've got no reason to replace it.
      - akimbostrawman 8mo ago
        It gets Android OS feature updates not security/firmware updates. GOS aims to be the most secure OS possible without compromise so they aren't supporting devices without them. Pixel 3a only offered 3 years of security updates. Current GOS supported devices support up to 7 years.
deleted 8mo ago
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StingyJelly 8mo ago
Even on non-pixel devices, unless you really want to use the /e/ "ecosystem, there are probably better options like LineageOS for microG iodéOS. (/e/ used to be heavily based on an outdated version of LineageOS for microG. I'm not sure what the current state is after I settled on second-hand pixel with graphene)
- Vinnl 8mo ago
  iodé is available for my device as well, but it looked fairly similar to /e/OS to me (and the latter has an official partnership with my phone's manufacturer). What makes it a better option - should I switch?
  - StingyJelly 8mo ago
    When I looked into it, /e/ constantly used to be many months late with security updates. LineageOS for microg and iodé were much quicker (~ 1 month max which is still not that great).
    - Vinnl 8mo ago
      Hmm, possibly I'm looking in the wrong place, but as far as I can remember, I've been getting new /e/OS versions about every month, and looking at the release notes [1], they usually seem to include the latest "Android security patches", which I assume is what's relevant - unless there's something else that should also be included? [1] https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/releases/-/releases https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/releases/-/releases
      - StingyJelly 8mo ago
        Yes, seems like they got it down to ~2 weeks, goo! Good to know, that should be on par with Lineageos.
dirasieb 8mo ago
is "/e/ supports my phone while graphene only supports google pixels" not a good reason?
Rumengol 8mo ago
There absolutely is when your concern is not only moving away from Google but also using sustainable hardware like Fairphone, which GrapheneOS doesn't support afaik.
bornfreddy 8mo ago
As someone who switched from FP4 with /e/OS to GrapheneOS - absolutely not true. My reason for switching was a bug where the phone calls didn't display the caller number. So I switched to GOS in hope it would be better... and it is, but not in all areas. For example their insistence on not supporting MicroG leads to poor UX, because let's face it, you can't trust Google services, even sandboxed, to not syphon tons of data into the cloud. MicroG was easybto use for privacy. They also seem to be very opinionated about (not) using a firewall for privacy, like NetGuard, instead recommending some weird alternatives like DNS firewalls. And don't get me started on their icons - I don't mind ugly-ish icons, but they are taking the ugliness to a whole new level. GrapheneOS is not a bad OS, but it is very opinionated, and they (heavily) prioritize security over privacy. When I turn FP4 on, I still like it way better than GOS. Still, I like seeing who is calling, so I'm not going back... Ymmv.
- ysnp 8mo ago
  I am not a project member so I cannot speak for GrapheneOS, but maybe I can help clear up some misunderstandings. >insistence on not supporting MicroG leads to poor UX, The problem they are trying to solve is apps not working without the presence of Google Mobile Services or Google Play. They don't want to compromise by having a component with high privileges integrated in their image that involves security issues like signature spoofing. MicroG will send less data to Google partly because it is simply an incomplete implementation of the features offered by GMS (sanboxed-google-play appp compatibility is quite a bit higher), partly because the access is more granular or there are choices offered for services like location (GrapheneOS provides non-Google location services and community support on only installing and enabling the parts you need for specific app features to work). UX is not adversely affected, but if you want to use a privileged app bypassing security checks and sending data to Google anyway then you have the freedom to compile microG with it integrated if you would like. >They also seem to be very opinionated about (not) using a firewall for privacy, like NetGuard, instead recommending some weird alternatives like DNS firewalls GrapheneOS tries to implement or end encourage sustainable approaches to privacy and security, and this partially means approaches that don't break if the adversary knows what you are doing. Egress/outbound traffic filtering is fundamentally unworkable. Apps do not have to connect to known privacy a invasive third party domains to violate your privacy or expose your data to extra parties, they can simply send anything they want to their own servers and do anything they like with the data. From my understanding this is why GrapheneOS do not want to encourage the approach of blocking apps from connecting to certain domains/addresses. Instead they tackle the problem at its source by providing a direct AND indirect network access toggle which cuts off an apps access to the outernet without letting the app know (pretends the network is down). This makes it non trivial for apps to exfiltrate data and as a side effect can provide benefits like data conservation (for capped plans). >instead recommending some weird alternatives like DNS firewalls. DNS based solutions are offered (not promoted) if you want more control over your DNS query resolvers or you want to improve your quality of experience by blocking advertisements and malvertising domains. >they (heavily) prioritize security over privacy. Can you point out another OS project with real privacy features like a network permission, sensors data access permission, contact access scopes, storage access scopes, per connection MAC randomisation and so on? https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm They have even more plans for privacy like location scopes, anti-fingerprinting for Vanadium browser and maybe AnonymisedDNSCrypt/Oblivious DNS and probably more they haven't mentioned. If you suggest some more on their issue tracker they may get back to it when they have the resources.

geff82 8mo ago

How is the experience in practice? What works, what doesn't? Are updates prompt and regular?

_Soulou 8mo ago
Overall, everything works pretty well for me (user for multiple years), except all apps which are too bound too Google Play Services as microG is not stubbing/implementing all APIs. So all apps with premium subscription you can only handle through in-app purchase, usually won't work. I've heard that some banking apps are not working correctly either as not "secured" enough device, in my personal experience, they all worked, it's really a case-by-case logics here. For the upgrade, OTA upgrade around every month, and it has always worked smoothly

purkka 8mo ago

I wonder how this compares to GrapheneOS in practice. >Operated by Murena, your Murena Workspace account @murena.io is at the centre of the ecosystem, allowing to store, back up and retrieve your data safely on remote servers. This sounds like their version is somewhat married to Murena. While probably better than Google, still not independent. They're also advertising features such as "hiding your IP address [...] when you feel like it" – which sounds a lot like a VPN – without mentioning much about who the traffic is going through or how they might log it.

amelius 8mo ago
Yeah it really looks like they are trying to solve too many things. This is usually not a good sign. I'd prefer to have an OS provider that does one thing well.
bramhaag 8mo ago
> I wonder how this compares to GrapheneOS in practice. https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm is a fairly complete comparison. One of GrapheneOS' biggest features is that they sandbox Google services (if you choose to install them), whereas e/OS gives them privileged access by default (via microG). Calling it a "degoogled" OS while microG uses Google's proprietary blobs is... a choice. The GrapheneOS developers are very sceptical of e/OS (https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/search?f=tweets&q=e/os https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/search?f=tweets&q=e/os), but you should obviously take biases into account here. Murena's CEO occasionally participates too: https://xcancel.com/gael_duval/search?f=tweets&q=grapheneos https://xcancel.com/gael_duval/search?f=tweets&q=grapheneos
Vinnl 8mo ago
I'm on /e/OS and don't use Murena Workspace (which I think is just a Nextcloud instance that they host). For the past couple of years in which I've used it, I have felt zero pressure to use Murena Workspace. Though I imagine it might be neat if you host your own Nextcloud instance, which might be nicely integrated too. (That said, yes, I don't quite trust their VPN or app store, since it's unclear who's running it - in the latter's case, I imagine that's also a legal matter.)
8mo ago

goldenarm 8mo ago

Tweaking user-hostile OSes into user-friendly ones is impressive, but not sustainable. Even worse, it slowing us down from leaving Android entirely. Look at the AdBlocker crackdown of Google Chrome. Every single chrome-fork has shut down MV2 extensions, even Brave is about to do it, because it is impossible to maintain features that complex on a browser that Google spends >$1B/year to develop. Same story for /e/ and GrapheneOS, the day Google pulls the plug on source code releases, god knows how long they will last. We should focus our efforts on truly open platforms.

amelius 8mo ago
You don't have to use Chrome or Chromium.
- goldenarm 8mo ago
  Yes fortunately we have browser alternatives. But on mobile, my bank and my government force me to use the Android/iOS duopoly.
  - jonathanstrange 8mo ago
    How do they do that? I'm not doubting that, it's an honest question. I understand how this works on Apple phones but I don't understand why an identity or attestation service cannot be replaced by another one by the alternative operating system when the hardware is not controlled by Google. Does Google have keys in tamper-proof chips? How else would those banks determine their apps are on the right phone? Or do those apps use Google authentication directly over the Internet, using hard-coded Google public keys?
    - well_ackshually 8mo ago
      Depending on the level of security you ask for Play Integrity, it can be: * is this device rooted, is it an unsigned build ? * Device is signed, but is it part of the blessed signing keys ? is play services untampered with ? * Additional checks over the lifetime of the device. You could fully trust the results of Play Integrity on device, but you can also send the returned token to your server, and your server then contacts play integrity to validate that token. So unless you know how to spoof those encrypted tokens, you won't go very far. https://developer.android.com/google/play/integrity/overview https://developer.android.com/google/play/integrity/overview

octoclaw 8mo ago

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moebrowne 8mo ago
> Updates lag behind GrapheneOS significantly. You might be right but there are new /e/OS releases every month, that's enough for me: https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/releases/-/releases https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/releases/-/releases
- deleted 8mo ago
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Nemo_bis 8mo ago
What "dependency"? I don't use the Murena cloud at all on my /e/OS device.

eMPee584 8mo ago

PostmarketOS is a complete degoogled mobile ecosystem, actually. How about we commit resources into that?

preisschild 8mo ago
Personally I'm pretty happy with GrapheneOS (Android AOSP distribution) and also donating to it. It works for me, its licensed under a free software license, there are plenty of cool free software applications available. I'm familiar with Android application development if I need something custom. Unless Android (itself, not Google Play Services because I don't depend on them) goes closed source I don't see a reason to switch to something (imo) inferior. I have nothing PmOS, phosh and other free mobile smartphone projects and will probably redirect my resources towards them if Android goes closed source.

amelius 8mo ago

I don't like names that are difficult to google. But then again, maybe that's the point :)

chrisjj 8mo ago

Nice, but.... > a unique privacy enhanced environment. ... consider proofreading.

deleted 8mo ago

[deleted]

janmarsal 8mo ago

Not that it matters but I just noticed certain titles on their website can be edited. For example the text "Use our /e/OS Installer" can be modified and I noticed it because I accidentally pasted my clipboard there. I suppose contenteditable should be set to "false". fuck me i'm doing work even though i should be working right now

fransje26 8mo ago

The irony of advertising a privacy-enabled de-googled system, and then telling me that my Firefox browser is not support, and that I should use Edge, Opera or Chrome instead.... Browsing: https://e.foundation/installer/ https://e.foundation/installer/ Reply: https://imgur.com/a/al1Q9DM https://imgur.com/a/al1Q9DM

RoryH 8mo ago
Hmmm, It seems to require the WebUSB API: https://caniuse.com/?search=webusb https://caniuse.com/?search=webusb
- amiga386 8mo ago
  If the site can detect that it can't use WebUSB, it can give you instructions on how to download and flash the mobile OS, not tell you to fuck off. Compare: https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/tokay/ https://wiki.lineageos.org/devices/tokay/
  - onli 8mo ago
    That's not an installer, that's a device page. It's the specific functionality needed here that Firefox lacks that makes the /e/ page show the warning, unlike the lineage page that does not have the problem in the first place.
    - fransje26 8mo ago
      The fun part is that I got to this installer page by clicking on "Check device compatibility" on the https://e.foundation/e-os/ https://e.foundation/e-os/ page.. So I was actually expecting a device page, not a WebUSB program..
      - onli 8mo ago
        Okay, that makes your complaint very understandable.
  - 8mo ago

bluebarbet 8mo ago

Got a "Your browser is not supported" error for using Firefox on their website (device compatibility page). Very poor first impression.

moebrowne 8mo ago
The installer page requires WebUSB which Firefox wont support. There are a list of supported devices here: https://doc.e.foundation/devices https://doc.e.foundation/devices

trelliumD 8mo ago

I have both a Jolla C2 phone, and an E/Os device, on a nothing CMS1 phone. Both are great. I like the Jolla Phone for its SailfishOS, which has great UI/Ux. I am less enthusiastic about the hardware. (good enough though) The E/OS really is good, all apps work good, and really much is done for privacy protection. But if the hardware is more performant, and with a few extra features i'd still opt for SailfishOS

ptman 8mo ago
https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-phone-preorder https://commerce.jolla.com/products/jolla-phone-preorder

soufron 8mo ago

Well E/OS is mainly about privacy. And about getting rid of Google. And it works. To me that's more important and it's a better vision.

microtonal 8mo ago
I you ever cross a border or attend a demonstration, privacy requires security. Unfortunately, /e/OS (and most hardware) is severely lacking in that department.
- rrr_oh_man 8mo ago
  Why? Care to elaborate?
  - preisschild 8mo ago
    https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm
    - rrr_oh_man 8mo ago
      That is amazing, thank you!

madeofpalk 8mo ago

Why is this a complete graphical clone of (old version) iOS? This seems like the worst of both worlds.

ralferoo 8mo ago

Honestly, I don't quite understand this. I get the appeal of degoogling, but this seems to just be replacing that with alternatives run by another commercial company, just one I've never heard of before. Why does it even need "One account for your privacy" ... "Operated by Murena, your Murena Workspace account @murena.io is at the centre of the ecosystem" when it'd be even better to have everything on-device without an account at all. Even more, Murena seems to be owned by Qwant who seem to be in the business of selling a search engine, and while they currently claim to be all about user privacy, this is basically exactly how Google started nearly 30 years ago. I wonder if they'd be happy if, for instance, somebody took this system and debundled Murena and switched it to using duckduckgo. Would they embrace that too, or sue them into oblivion? EDIT: maybe I was too hasty. I've just seen that it's open source and it seems like you can self-host the required cloud parts: https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/infra/ecloud-selfhosting https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/infra/ecloud-selfhosting

microtonal 8mo ago
Even more, Murena seems to be owned by Qwant Source? (would be interesting if it was)
- ralferoo 8mo ago
  I think I was wrong. Googling suggest that Qwant is owned by Octave Klaba, the founder and majority owner of OVH. Murena seems to be owned by Gaël Duval. It's just from their website a lot of mentions of Murena seemed to say powered by Qwant, or similar, and so it looked like they were closely linked.

ergocoder 8mo ago

I worked at Google before, so I trust Google more than these random organizations that claim they are better than Google at handling sensitive info.

rapnie 8mo ago
That is all nice and well, but Google is primarily an advertisement business. A huge corporation that gained enormous power that operates only to satisfy its own self interest. So that gives us non-Googlers more to think about than just that consideration to take into account.
- Itoldmyselfso 8mo ago
  It is an entirely realistic scenario which afaik data backs up that most people don't change their default privacy related settings which Google profits from, but in case of actually setting their provided privacy settings ON, they do work.
NicuCalcea 8mo ago
What do you mean by "better [...] at handling sensitive info"? As in, they are more technically competent, or they will treat your data more ethically? I don't think these projects claim they've got better infrastructure for handling private data, just that they won't sell it to advertisers. I trust Google are experts at handling my data, I just don't want them to.
ForHackernews 8mo ago
On the other hand, I would trust a randomly chosen organization more than the world's largest adtech firm.
megous 8mo ago
Better at siphoning out all the sensitive info, maybe.
afewquarks 8mo ago
[dead]

einpoklum 8mo ago

At the link, I see a lot of text about a company called Murena. Including: > Operated by Murena, your Murena Workspace account @murena.io is at the > centre of the ecosystem, allowing to store, back up and retrieve your > data safely on remote servers. That seems to suggest that we would be replacing one large overbearing corporation with a smaller and less-evil overbearing corporation. Is e/OS an open-source facade for Murena?

tremon 8mo ago
/e/OS and Murena are the same company. Initially, they used the name /e/ everywhere, but a single letter is not searchable on the web, so they rebranded to Murena. Everything is now called Murena except the OS itself. from https://gael-duval.medium.com/murena-smartphones-and-cloud-will-protect-our-privacy-357788a1e585 https://gael-duval.medium.com/murena-smartphones-and-cloud-w... : > as we are reaching more and more people and progressively catching interested from a mainstream audience, we have to introduce a new, strong brand, easier to use, easier to refer to and easier to share with people.

bramhaag 8mo ago

> open-source means auditable privacy This is what that auditing actually reveals: * /e/OS sends user speech data to OpenAI without consent [1], and thought this was ok until they got caught [2]. * /e/OS massively delays security patches, and calls this a "standard industry practice" [3]. Meanwhile, GrapheneOS' opt-in security preview releases provide early access to security updates prior to official disclosure [4]. Also see [0] (Security update speed) and [7] (WebView being 40 security updates behind). * microG downloads and executes proprietary Google binaries in a privileged environment [5] [6]. You can obviously not audit these, nor should this count as "degoogled". * microG still phones home to Google by default (android.clients.google.com for device registration check-in, mtalk.google.com for FCM push, firebaseinstallations.googleapis.com for SIM activations) [7]. [0] has a comparison of popular privacy and security-focused Android-based OS, which paints the whole picture. Privacy-friendly does not necessarily mean secure, but in this case "privacy-friendly" is quite a stretch already. [0] https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm https://eylenburg.github.io/android_comparison.htm [1] https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114880528716479708 https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/114880528716479708 [2] https://community.e.foundation/t/clarification-about-voice-to-text-stt-in-e-os-and-whats-next/75121 https://community.e.foundation/t/clarification-about-voice-t... [3] https://community.e.foundation/t/e-os-and-security-updates/72384 https://community.e.foundation/t/e-os-and-security-updates/7... [4] https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/27068-grapheneos-security-preview-releases https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/27068-grapheneos-security-p... [5] https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/blob/e19a9985204ec8329c1d958f41e0da9465061a57/play-services-droidguard/core/src/main/kotlin/org/microg/gms/droidguard/core/NetworkHandleProxyFactory.kt#L175 https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/blob/e19a9985204ec8329c1d9... [6] https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/blob/e19a9985204ec8329c1d958f41e0da9465061a57/play-services-droidguard/src/main/kotlin/org/microg/gms/droidguard/HandleProxyFactory.kt#L101 https://github.com/microg/GmsCore/blob/e19a9985204ec8329c1d9... [7] https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-nicht-zwangslaeufig-sicher-custom-roms-teil6/ https://www.kuketz-blog.de/e-datenschutzfreundlich-bedeutet-...

microtonal 8mo ago
And they give privileged access to a bunch of Google apps if you need them for e.g. Android Auto: https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/GmsCore/-/blob/a9e102567518ec77f447d66f558dcd24d7690264/play-services-base/core/src/main/kotlin/org/microg/gms/common/KnownGooglePackages.kt#L209 https://gitlab.e.foundation/e/os/GmsCore/-/blob/a9e102567518...

raphinou 8mo ago

I have been using e/OS but moved away when an upgrade to the next version required to manually wipe the device. I could cope with the little inconveniences of a degoogled phone, but wiping the device myself following a unclear procedure was too much for me. My phone is not a hacking subject. It's a tool. Still, it worked reasonably well and I would have upgraded and kept using it if the upgrade had been easier.

Wilder7977 8mo ago
I am on e/OS since 2021 with a FP3 and, for what is worth, I never had to reinstall, wipe or anything. My phone just had it's 5th birthday and it has been a single continuous set of updates. I know the versions differ by model, so perhaps your model was not as well supported.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- raphinou 8mo ago
  It was the gigaset gs190. I've used it quite some time with e/os, but one day the automatic updates stopped working and I discovered this reinstallation requirement.

HunOL 8mo ago

I'm currently looking for a new Android phone. I don't like the Pixel and deep integration with Google. I looked at the Fairphone with /e/OS and the Pixel with GrapheneOS, but unfortunately there's no certainty that everything will work or where the boundary is between Google Android and "clean" Android. For example, it turned out that Android Auto is essentially Google Auto and I don't what find out what is dependent on Google. I want something that just works. A phone isn't something I want to tinker with like Linux ten years ago. So basically the choice comes down to Samsung and Chinese brands.

pferde 8mo ago
Pixel's "deep integration with Google" is in the OS, so if you replace the OS with GrapheneOS, there is no deep integration anymore.
- HunOL 8mo ago
  Yes, but I made an argument about /e/OS and GrapheneOS. You never knows what will work or stop working.
  - pferde 8mo ago
    Sure, but I was only responding to the reservation you expressed about Pixel: "I don't like the Pixel and deep integration with Google."
  - Itoldmyselfso 8mo ago
    Motorola just made a deal with GrapheneOS, so I'd vager they're going to be around for longer on that basis alone.
Georgelemental 8mo ago
GrapheneOS has sandboxed Google Play, which allows using most Google services (including Android Auto) while limiting their deep OS access.

scosman 8mo ago

Why rip off Apple design so much here (see homescreen image). Seems like a lot of unnecessary effort. Plus it’s not done well enough so instead of looking like itself, it looks like a bad ripoff.

LorenDB 8mo ago

For how polished the launcher looks, it's a bit jarring to install /e/ and realize that under the hood, all the apps are just running a very stock Material theme. I'm not shaming the developers; developing a custom theme is no doubt an involved task that they don't have the resources for.

jathul 8mo ago

why is there not any support for latest models of manufacturers, as older models are not for sale now.

trilogic 8mo ago

Sir, you just made the world a better place, thank you.

hl0dwig 8mo ago

As an average user, I don't understand all the ins and outs of an Android system, but I'm very happy to use /e/OS on my Fairphone 4 every day. I don't have a Google account, but I can still use all the apps I need, including French banking apps (CMB, Endenred+). My only regret is that the simplified installation tool didn't work (my FP4 kept restarting), so I had to install it manually, which makes it inaccessible to users who are even less tech-savvy than me. Finally, I still think it's an excellent alternative to Android, but we need to go further and allow our smartphones to work with other operating systems, particularly Linux. I am hopeful that one day we will have a Linux OS for our smartphones that performs as well as /e/OS (I have heard about Jolla smartphones and Sailfish OS, but unfortunately I have not tested them).

odeckmyn 8mo ago

I wanted to add a perspective from actual daily use, because a lot of this thread sounds theoretical. I’ve been using a Murena/Fairphone running /e/OS as my primary phone for a while now, and honestly the experience has been much smoother than I expected. My banking apps work, GPS/navigation works reliably, messaging and everyday apps behave normally — I’m not constantly fighting the device or giving things up. After the initial setup, it just feels like a normal smartphone, except noticeably quieter in terms of tracking and background noise. What surprised me most is that this isn’t a “privacy experiment” anymore. It’s a usable, stable daily driver. I still get the convenience people worry about losing, but with far fewer ties to Google services by default. I think a lot of people hesitate because they assume moving away from stock Android means breaking essential apps or living with constant friction. That hasn’t been my experience at all. If you’re curious but unsure, it’s genuinely worth trying — the barrier is much lower than it used to be, and you might find you don’t miss as much as you expect.

Mordisquitos 8mo ago
I can vouch for your experience as mine has been the same, also on a Fairphone on which I installed /e/OS. I could have literally written the same comment myself — em-dash usage included!
- rrr_oh_man 8mo ago
  It's not just an OS, it's an /e/OS.
  - amelius 8mo ago
    Yeah, it's an OS that gives a browser error because it thinks the name is a path.
    - Mordisquitos 8mo ago
      Yes, their choice of name was not their greatest achievement.

amaccuish 8mo ago

But can't relock the bootloader on a Pixel 9 since it is "community supported" :(

astrolx 8mo ago

My phone (Teracube) is running /e/OS now for 2 years. Nearly everything works out of the box (bank apps, e-identity apps etc ..). The only issue I have is that the app I use to take contactless payment on the phone via NFC does not work (while it works using Android).

decasteve 8mo ago

If you block Google, as much of it as possible anyway, on your firewall, does the device work/install? I tried /e/ and Lineage about a year ago, but neither of them worked when Google was blocked completely. The only one that made no requests to Google was Graphene.

afewquarks 8mo ago
[dead]

IX-103 8mo ago

So we replace an OS owned by a search engine (Google) with an OS owned by a search engine (Murena)? You're going to need to give me more details than that before I consider switching.

Mordisquitos 8mo ago
I'm an /e/OS user with a Murena account and I had never even heard of Murena being "a search engine". After searching (on DDG), I see that they in June 2025 they launched a collaboration with the Qwant search engine to launch a Murena-branded version: https://murena.com/discover-murena-find-your-new-privacy-first-search-engine-in-e-os/ https://murena.com/discover-murena-find-your-new-privacy-fir... That does not make it "an OS owned by a search engine".
- chneu 8mo ago
  Also, Qwant ain't bad. I've been using it for about a year.

mghackerlady 8mo ago

I've long been a fan of murena. I would likely be using their services if I hadn't discovered disroot :)

huflungdung 8mo ago

[dead]

gigatexal 8mo ago

Is this DOA if major OEMs like Motorola partner with a project like GrapheneOS? https://motorolanews.com/motorola-three-new-b2b-solutions-at-mwc-2026/ https://motorolanews.com/motorola-three-new-b2b-solutions-at...

deleted 8mo ago

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deleted 8mo ago

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JCattheATM 8mo ago

What advantages does /e/OS offer over installing LineageOS without Gapps, which is a necessary step you must explicitly take if you want them?

aidenn0 8mo ago

I can't check my device compatibility without Chrome or edge. Is there a reason I can't just see a list of compatible devices to confirm (as I suspect) that it won't work on my phone?

accoil 8mo ago
Yeah, not a fan of having to plug my phone in for detection.... That page should at least include a link here: https://doc.e.foundation/devices https://doc.e.foundation/devices

Eric_WVGG 8mo ago

Looks cool, but burns a bit of credibility by ripping off Apple's icon designs. There has to be some fresh-out-of-college graphic designer in Berlin ready to make their name by designing a custom icon library for a project like this, ask around.

nphardon 8mo ago

I went *browserless on my device and it has solved my screen compulsion issues with very little downside. It has been the most effective step I've ever taken. I realized I really love msg'ing friends, having access to maps and navigation, banking, just a handful of apps (no google apps), and that all along it was the browser. *ios doesnt let you delete Safari so I set a 10 minute timer on it, and i dont have any adblock or content filtering enabled, so it's essentially only good for brief checks (auto-shop phone number, quick news check, etc.) but is useless for anything beyond that.

unethical_ban 8mo ago
I have been thinking the exact same thing! That while I "need" a smartphone for secure communications, banking and nav while traveling, it's Instagram and compulsive news/reddit consumption that keeps me instinctively checking my phone. I think I need to do the same thing on gOS.
- nphardon 8mo ago
  Yes! Also shopping is an insidious thing. Now it's no longer a shopping tool. For me a common flow would be like, 1) think about some thing 2) instantly I'm scroll shopping somewhere 3) remember I'm too frugal to buy things 4) 10 minutes lost to the void. It's been really nice for me to break that particular cycle.
toddsiegel 8mo ago
Web views still work? I think that was part of Apple's rationale, that is was all coupled together. I assume that’s not the case here?

nicexe 8mo ago

Once I read the title, I thought this was about Enlightenment but for mobile phones. I can't be the only one that thought of this.

whalesalad 8mo ago

/e/OS, Pop!_OS, ... the old adage will never be defeated: > There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things.

Denatonium 8mo ago

MicroG does an excellent job at reimplementating most of Google's proprietary APIs on the client side. I don't know how feasible this is, but it would be cool if there were open-source drop-in replacements for Google's server-sided APIs that app developers could use to replace Google's services with alternate servers running open source software.

p0w3n3d 8mo ago

That's great! However, when I see "murena unified account" I feel like one thing is replaced with another. I'd like to be able to synchronize my android-like open os phone with my own cloud. It's really not a rocket science...

Sateallia 8mo ago
I've been using /e/OS on my phone for a few months now. It comes with built-in DAVx5. Their hosted offering is just another provider and using your own cloud provider is the same process as using theirs. Even their device locator integration is independent from their hosted offering. Of all the Android distributions I've used, it's the one that does providing a hosted service best and it was honestly refreshing.

dismalaf 8mo ago

https://e.foundation/legal-notice-privacy/ https://e.foundation/legal-notice-privacy/ Read this. They still collect much of the same data Google does. Why should I trust them over Google? And even if they might be morally better, it's basically impossible for them to have better security than Google. If I were to want a Google-free phone, I'd want it to be everyone-free. Not replacing Google with some French corporation (even if it's non-profit).

rekabis 8mo ago

LMAO-class first impressions: builds entire UI into a carbon-copy of iOS Like, I thought I was looking at an older version of iOS with those screenshots. It took a few of the screenshot flips to realize that things were subtly off and not-iOS. I mean, okay: use what works. But it’s amusing nonetheless.

HackerThemAll 8mo ago

I'm waiting for de-Appled iPhone ecosystem then.

nout 8mo ago

I think the edge that will actually bring new widely used mobile linux based OS is going to be gaming devices. Steam Deck and many of retrogaming devices are already running Linux. Some devices have option for user to either boot linux or to boot android. They are selling, they have support and some market fit already. One can guess that there will be Steam Deck mini at some point and that could be followed by Steam Phone...

BLACKCRAB 8mo ago

[dead]

akimbostrawman 8mo ago

They have claimed to be degoogled for a very long time despite it regularly connecting to google. I don't see a reason to suddenly believe them unless they are as transparent and actually without Google connections like GrapheneOS. https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections https://grapheneos.org/faq#default-connections

smm11 8mo ago

I told Claude to make me an operating system for a Pixel 7 that's not based on Android. We'll see.