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Tesla and similar companies really make me wonder if we still live in a capitalist system. If wealth is sufficiently concentrated - the value of anything become

by lumost 8mo ago

Tesla and similar companies really make me wonder if we still live in a capitalist system. If wealth is sufficiently concentrated - the value of anything becomes tied to the whims of the few who can transact at that level. How a stock goes up while sales growth, profitability, and other measures go down on a multi-year trajectory defies my understanding.

moomin 8mo ago
One of the things I’ve noticed is that when leftists say “capitalism” they often mean “the ability of capital to set the rules of markets” rather than just “markets”. This causes people who use the latter interpretation and leftists to talk past one another quite a bit. Which is one of the reasons that leftists have sounded this alarm bell for at least twenty years and no-one has paid attention.
- api 8mo ago
  When leftists say "capitalism" they mean something closer to what conservatives and free market libertarians mean by "fascism."
- speed_spread 8mo ago
  Capitalism is a big money party. Leftists are the party poopers, actually just slightly less drunk than the rest of the guests, and pointing out that lighting up fireworks indoors isn't a good idea. Booo-hooo, shut up lefty! *BANG*
  - gadflyinyoureye 8mo ago
    Command economies break too. Capitalism has occasional fires like a forest. This is good. It allows things to shake out. New growth comes from the destruction. Command economies don't. They just continue to grow weeds and tall trees until everything is choked. Then they wonder why everything is garbage. The US is moving to a fascist economy. That is a form of command economy. For example the FDA is controlled by big pharma.
    - saalweachter 8mo ago
      Capitalism with the ultra-wealthy is functionally the same as a command economy.
monooso 8mo ago
> If wealth is sufficiently concentrated - the value of anything becomes tied to the whims of the few who can transact at that level. You just described a capitalist system: a system built and controlled by and for those who control the capital.
- tirant 8mo ago
  Same as any other economic system: power is usually concentrated around a very small group of people. In socialism and communism, that concentration typically occurs within the party leadership or central planning apparatus. However, in free-market capitalism, anyone is allowed to participate in capital formation and accumulation. Ownership is not formally restricted to a political class. Entry into markets is open in principle (unless it stops being a free market), and capital allocation is decentralized through free and voluntary exchange rather than administrative decree. That does not mean capitalism eliminates power concentration, as Wealth can accumulate and translate into political influence. But the mechanism of power differs: In centrally planned systems, control flows from political authority. In market systems, control flows from voluntary transactions and competitive success.
  - BigTTYGothGF 8mo ago
    > anyone is allowed to participate in capital formation and accumulation In the same sense that nobody is allowed to sleep under a bridge.
    - gadflyinyoureye 8mo ago
      I don't follow. Even now there is nothing preventing anyone here from making something for millions of dollars. While VC capital is closed to a select few, a person in a garage can still make it big. Communist counties tend to gate keep even more. To the point that it is entirely who you know, with little concern to what you do.
      - nicoburns 8mo ago
lm28469 8mo ago
Have you ever witnessed any other version of capitalism? Do you believe in the invisible hand of the free market? It's neither invisible nor free
- gadflyinyoureye 8mo ago
  Please read that text. It explicitly calls for reasonable government oversight.
BigTTYGothGF 8mo ago
> If wealth is sufficiently concentrated - the value of anything becomes tied to the whims of the few who can transact at that level. Sounds like capitalism to me.

by lumost 8mo ago

moomin 8mo ago

One of the things I’ve noticed is that when leftists say “capitalism” they often mean “the ability of capital to set the rules of markets” rather than just “markets”. This causes people who use the latter interpretation and leftists to talk past one another quite a bit. Which is one of the reasons that leftists have sounded this alarm bell for at least twenty years and no-one has paid attention.

api 8mo ago
When leftists say "capitalism" they mean something closer to what conservatives and free market libertarians mean by "fascism."
speed_spread 8mo ago
Capitalism is a big money party. Leftists are the party poopers, actually just slightly less drunk than the rest of the guests, and pointing out that lighting up fireworks indoors isn't a good idea. Booo-hooo, shut up lefty! *BANG*
- gadflyinyoureye 8mo ago
  Command economies break too. Capitalism has occasional fires like a forest. This is good. It allows things to shake out. New growth comes from the destruction. Command economies don't. They just continue to grow weeds and tall trees until everything is choked. Then they wonder why everything is garbage. The US is moving to a fascist economy. That is a form of command economy. For example the FDA is controlled by big pharma.
  - saalweachter 8mo ago
    Capitalism with the ultra-wealthy is functionally the same as a command economy.

monooso 8mo ago

> If wealth is sufficiently concentrated - the value of anything becomes tied to the whims of the few who can transact at that level. You just described a capitalist system: a system built and controlled by and for those who control the capital.

tirant 8mo ago
Same as any other economic system: power is usually concentrated around a very small group of people. In socialism and communism, that concentration typically occurs within the party leadership or central planning apparatus. However, in free-market capitalism, anyone is allowed to participate in capital formation and accumulation. Ownership is not formally restricted to a political class. Entry into markets is open in principle (unless it stops being a free market), and capital allocation is decentralized through free and voluntary exchange rather than administrative decree. That does not mean capitalism eliminates power concentration, as Wealth can accumulate and translate into political influence. But the mechanism of power differs: In centrally planned systems, control flows from political authority. In market systems, control flows from voluntary transactions and competitive success.
- BigTTYGothGF 8mo ago
  > anyone is allowed to participate in capital formation and accumulation In the same sense that nobody is allowed to sleep under a bridge.
  - gadflyinyoureye 8mo ago
    I don't follow. Even now there is nothing preventing anyone here from making something for millions of dollars. While VC capital is closed to a select few, a person in a garage can still make it big. Communist counties tend to gate keep even more. To the point that it is entirely who you know, with little concern to what you do.
    - nicoburns 8mo ago

lm28469 8mo ago

Have you ever witnessed any other version of capitalism? Do you believe in the invisible hand of the free market? It's neither invisible nor free

gadflyinyoureye 8mo ago
Please read that text. It explicitly calls for reasonable government oversight.

BigTTYGothGF 8mo ago

> If wealth is sufficiently concentrated - the value of anything becomes tied to the whims of the few who can transact at that level. Sounds like capitalism to me.