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Microsoft's Sinofsky responds to complaint over Office 2013 on Surface RT

35 points by niggler 14y ago

niels_olson 14y ago
Kudos to the journalist for linking back to the comments.
ari_elle 14y ago
Error in the article: Too bad, because he had already fallen in love with the software, going so far as to opine that the Surface RT "doesn’t just compete with the iPad – it bypasses the iPad in many ways that are significant and valuable for me." Nitpick: He fell in love with the hardware, the software is the part he didn't like. That was his complaint. And: No matter if an update was available on the first day. For a major release like that it shouldn't have come to this in the first place. Note: Is HN being mentioned and linked on ZDNet such a big thing that it should be the title of the entry rather than what it's about? -> (referring to old title - title has been changed)
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Thanks for being nitpicky about that. I went ballistic when I read that quote, and I've added a comment to Ed's post to have him clarify that. I fell in the opposite of love with the software. The hardware's awesome though.
  - barista 14y ago
    Brent, if only you'd have bothered to check and for and install updates before writing such a diatribe, your experience would have been different... hope you are enjoying your surface now. I know I am.
    - BrentOzar 14y ago
      Actually, I did check for updates as I explained repeatedly in the post. To get the Office update, you have to go to a different place - not the OS or app updates in Windows Store, but to Install Optional Updates. I wouldn't have thought to look there.
      - fel0niousmonk 14y ago
        Windows Update has had 'Critical' and 'Optional' updates for years. Even novice users know that; it's RIGHT on the Windows Update control panel. And if there are no 'Critical' updates, the only thing that shows up are the 'Optional' ones. Moreover, usually only security-related or Service-Pack updates are on the 'Critical' list -- Nominal Office updates are almost ALWAYS on the 'Optional' list. Geek cred is slipping fast.
- yuhong 14y ago
  "And: No matter if an update was available on the first day. For a major release like that it shouldn't have come to this in the first place." It takes time after Win8 RTM to get the image created and the hardware manufactured for the launch, and the Windows and Office teams obviously have different schedules.
  - MBCook 14y ago
    The ship the device with a dummy application that downloads the latest update, or at least force updates on day one. If the schedules are different, you plan for that. Shipping with a buggy core feature is not a good sign.
    - barista 14y ago
      Google does that Apple has done that too. Get a new Galaxy tab and watch in wonder how many applications get updated over next few hours or so. What use is the ability to update software OTA if the users are not delivered quick incremental updates?
- kenjackson 14y ago
  And: No matter if an update was available on the first day. For a major release like that it shouldn't have come to this in the first place. I'm somewhat confused by this statement. I've rarely heard it applied to other companies. Siri being in Beta at launch was largely forgiven on HN. Even a substantial portion of HN made excuses for the new Apple Maps (which if it wasn't listed as a beta, clearly was). Google's second most popular product, GMail, came out of beta in just mid-2009. Lets be real. The update was available on the FIRST day. The freakin' first day and you're complaining that it shouldn't have come to this? On a site where the near pillar of virtually every company is to ship something that, for all intents and purposes, is barely usable on day one and iterate like crazy, it seems like an odd statement. I have to admit that I'm probably an odd beast in that when I get a new device, I actually install the latest software. Whether its a BluRay player or a computer. I get that most mainstream users won't do that, and I get that it was likely a mainstream blog, but I'd expect better of HN readers. In fact I'd argue if you buy a device and it does not update out the box that's probably NOT a good sign of active development on it.
  - ari_elle 14y ago
    First of all: My comment does not necessarily reflect the opinion of all individuals that gather here on HN. Therefore: Yes, i was a critic of Siri when it first came out and also of Apple Maps. Additionally: You might, and things like this happen with written text, over emphasize my statement. It was by no means meant as harsh criticism, but you can't deny the fact that it shouldn't have happened and that was basically all i said. -) why do updates not appear for some users (it was not just him) -) when it's being marketed with running Office and then comes along in this condition, then it certainly isn't perfect AND: When also keeping in mind, that: -) the Hardware seems to be astonishing -) Design, Input methods, everything gets positive reviews -) this a big milestone for Microsoft, showing off not only a Microsoft branded device (not just some device where their OS is running), but also a completely new direction in which they are heading then this was not at all a perfect start, no matter how you put it.
- niggler 14y ago
  FYI: I wouldn't have cared and definitely wouldn't have submitted had the article not been a rehashing of the HN thread
Mythbusters 14y ago
Anybody who shares their opinion should consider these points: 1. The office on surface is not the final version of software. It has RTM'ed so it should get updated with the final version pretty soon. 2. The fact that you have an ability to run a program like office on a tablet class hardware and ARM architecture is in itself a feat of engineering and Microsoft should get some credit for that here. I was dying to put this louis CK piece in the comments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk
- stephencanon 14y ago
  "A program like office" (office itself) ran on less capable hardware than the tablet in question for 15 years or so. I'm not really seeing the achievement here.
  - Mythbusters 14y ago
    Right and those office like apps are toys. Not a real productivity application. There were touch screen phones before iPhone and search engines before Google. I am not saying Office running on ARM is in the same league but there is no denying the first class engineering there.
    - stephencanon 14y ago
      Office XP was a "toy"? Office 2003? The SoC in the Surface is as capable (and in many ways more capable) than the commodity computers of that era. At what point exactly do you believe office stopped being a toy?
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - Mythbusters 14y ago
        Aren't we talking about the architecture here? Surface and the software on it is ARM architecture. Something that Office never ran on before. These are significantly different architectures and just because the graphics or processing capabilities are same does not mean it will run right? Besides the version that was tested with was a beta. The final version of office runs smoothly on the device. So what is your point? RTFA!
Encosia 14y ago
I had the same typing performance issue when using the preview version of Office 2013 that shipped with my Surface RT, updated to the RTM version today, and the typing performance is fine now. The characters even appear with a quick reveal-from-left-to-right animation now, that keeps up with my fastest typing speed.
- chj 14y ago
  Good to know the problem is gone. How does the animation feel like after an hour of use?
  - joenathan 14y ago
    It's the same thing on the x86 version, I found it strange at first, after a couple of days its just faded into the background and I don't notice it. Video of the effect here http://youtu.be/ddwo-AN2SmU http://youtu.be/ddwo-AN2SmU
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      I find it still messes up my rhythm a bit; the distraction might be slowing my typing speed down during a burst. Is there an HCI principle going on in this feature or is it just eye candy?
      - joenathan 14y ago
        From my searching I can't find any practical reasons for it other than eye candy. It seems the only way to disable it is via a regedit http://www.winsupersite.com/article/office-2013-beta2/office-2013-tip-disable-animations-143779 http://www.winsupersite.com/article/office-2013-beta2/office...
  - Encosia 14y ago
    I haven't typed in Word on the Surface for a solid hour yet, but it hasn't bothered me in the x86 version on my desktop over the month or two I've been using 2013 there. Like joenathan said, it completely blends into the background pretty quickly.
chj 14y ago
Very few loves writing documents on a tablet. Most love games, musics, books, videos. If MS focus on selling office on RT, it will be a disaster for the product, and for the company. For long documents it's going to be slow no matter how they optimize it -- we all know word is not that fast even in a desktop computer, and now they even have issues with a two-page document.
jorts 14y ago
It's ridiculous that a journalist writing technical blogs didn't even check that his Surface was fully patched. That's the first thing you should do with any system. I don't own a Surface so I don't know whether Microsoft told users to update their Surface shortly after starting it up, but they definitely should have so that these types of articles don't get published.
- objclxt 14y ago
  I just bought a Surface from a Microsoft Store today, and the store assistant not only told me there were updates available but showed me how to update it. So they're definitely making a pro-active effort to encourage people to update where possible.
  - jorts 14y ago
    I imagine that if it's anything like any version of Windows to come out since XP, or possibly even earlier, that updates are one of the first things that are presented to you post-install.
    - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
      It doesn't seem that this is the case this, its even obscured as an optional update. See the linked article for more information.
      - fel0niousmonk 14y ago
        'Obscured' isn't the right word. It's business as usual for office (and other non-system) updates to be under the 'Optional' category..
        seanmcdirmid 14y ago
        One place to update apps on a system would be nice. I know windows as lots of legacy, but how many apps are optional system updates on windows rt?

35 points by niggler 14y ago

Kudos to the journalist for linking back to the comments.

Error in the article: Too bad, because he had already fallen in love with the software, going so far as to opine that the Surface RT "doesn’t just compete with the iPad – it bypasses the iPad in many ways that are significant and valuable for me." Nitpick: He fell in love with the hardware, the software is the part he didn't like. That was his complaint. And: No matter if an update was available on the first day. For a major release like that it shouldn't have come to this in the first place. Note: Is HN being mentioned and linked on ZDNet such a big thing that it should be the title of the entry rather than what it's about? -> (referring to old title - title has been changed)

BrentOzar 14y ago
Thanks for being nitpicky about that. I went ballistic when I read that quote, and I've added a comment to Ed's post to have him clarify that. I fell in the opposite of love with the software. The hardware's awesome though.
- barista 14y ago
  Brent, if only you'd have bothered to check and for and install updates before writing such a diatribe, your experience would have been different... hope you are enjoying your surface now. I know I am.
  - BrentOzar 14y ago
    Actually, I did check for updates as I explained repeatedly in the post. To get the Office update, you have to go to a different place - not the OS or app updates in Windows Store, but to Install Optional Updates. I wouldn't have thought to look there.
    - fel0niousmonk 14y ago
      Windows Update has had 'Critical' and 'Optional' updates for years. Even novice users know that; it's RIGHT on the Windows Update control panel. And if there are no 'Critical' updates, the only thing that shows up are the 'Optional' ones. Moreover, usually only security-related or Service-Pack updates are on the 'Critical' list -- Nominal Office updates are almost ALWAYS on the 'Optional' list. Geek cred is slipping fast.
yuhong 14y ago
"And: No matter if an update was available on the first day. For a major release like that it shouldn't have come to this in the first place." It takes time after Win8 RTM to get the image created and the hardware manufactured for the launch, and the Windows and Office teams obviously have different schedules.
- MBCook 14y ago
  The ship the device with a dummy application that downloads the latest update, or at least force updates on day one. If the schedules are different, you plan for that. Shipping with a buggy core feature is not a good sign.
  - barista 14y ago
    Google does that Apple has done that too. Get a new Galaxy tab and watch in wonder how many applications get updated over next few hours or so. What use is the ability to update software OTA if the users are not delivered quick incremental updates?
kenjackson 14y ago
And: No matter if an update was available on the first day. For a major release like that it shouldn't have come to this in the first place. I'm somewhat confused by this statement. I've rarely heard it applied to other companies. Siri being in Beta at launch was largely forgiven on HN. Even a substantial portion of HN made excuses for the new Apple Maps (which if it wasn't listed as a beta, clearly was). Google's second most popular product, GMail, came out of beta in just mid-2009. Lets be real. The update was available on the FIRST day. The freakin' first day and you're complaining that it shouldn't have come to this? On a site where the near pillar of virtually every company is to ship something that, for all intents and purposes, is barely usable on day one and iterate like crazy, it seems like an odd statement. I have to admit that I'm probably an odd beast in that when I get a new device, I actually install the latest software. Whether its a BluRay player or a computer. I get that most mainstream users won't do that, and I get that it was likely a mainstream blog, but I'd expect better of HN readers. In fact I'd argue if you buy a device and it does not update out the box that's probably NOT a good sign of active development on it.
- ari_elle 14y ago
  First of all: My comment does not necessarily reflect the opinion of all individuals that gather here on HN. Therefore: Yes, i was a critic of Siri when it first came out and also of Apple Maps. Additionally: You might, and things like this happen with written text, over emphasize my statement. It was by no means meant as harsh criticism, but you can't deny the fact that it shouldn't have happened and that was basically all i said. -) why do updates not appear for some users (it was not just him) -) when it's being marketed with running Office and then comes along in this condition, then it certainly isn't perfect AND: When also keeping in mind, that: -) the Hardware seems to be astonishing -) Design, Input methods, everything gets positive reviews -) this a big milestone for Microsoft, showing off not only a Microsoft branded device (not just some device where their OS is running), but also a completely new direction in which they are heading then this was not at all a perfect start, no matter how you put it.
niggler 14y ago
FYI: I wouldn't have cared and definitely wouldn't have submitted had the article not been a rehashing of the HN thread

Mythbusters 14y ago

Anybody who shares their opinion should consider these points: 1. The office on surface is not the final version of software. It has RTM'ed so it should get updated with the final version pretty soon. 2. The fact that you have an ability to run a program like office on a tablet class hardware and ARM architecture is in itself a feat of engineering and Microsoft should get some credit for that here. I was dying to put this louis CK piece in the comments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpUNA2nutbk

stephencanon 14y ago
"A program like office" (office itself) ran on less capable hardware than the tablet in question for 15 years or so. I'm not really seeing the achievement here.
- Mythbusters 14y ago
  Right and those office like apps are toys. Not a real productivity application. There were touch screen phones before iPhone and search engines before Google. I am not saying Office running on ARM is in the same league but there is no denying the first class engineering there.
  - stephencanon 14y ago
    Office XP was a "toy"? Office 2003? The SoC in the Surface is as capable (and in many ways more capable) than the commodity computers of that era. At what point exactly do you believe office stopped being a toy?
    - deleted 14y ago
      [deleted]
    - Mythbusters 14y ago
      Aren't we talking about the architecture here? Surface and the software on it is ARM architecture. Something that Office never ran on before. These are significantly different architectures and just because the graphics or processing capabilities are same does not mean it will run right? Besides the version that was tested with was a beta. The final version of office runs smoothly on the device. So what is your point? RTFA!

Encosia 14y ago

I had the same typing performance issue when using the preview version of Office 2013 that shipped with my Surface RT, updated to the RTM version today, and the typing performance is fine now. The characters even appear with a quick reveal-from-left-to-right animation now, that keeps up with my fastest typing speed.

chj 14y ago
Good to know the problem is gone. How does the animation feel like after an hour of use?
- joenathan 14y ago
  It's the same thing on the x86 version, I found it strange at first, after a couple of days its just faded into the background and I don't notice it. Video of the effect here http://youtu.be/ddwo-AN2SmU http://youtu.be/ddwo-AN2SmU
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    I find it still messes up my rhythm a bit; the distraction might be slowing my typing speed down during a burst. Is there an HCI principle going on in this feature or is it just eye candy?
    - joenathan 14y ago
      From my searching I can't find any practical reasons for it other than eye candy. It seems the only way to disable it is via a regedit http://www.winsupersite.com/article/office-2013-beta2/office-2013-tip-disable-animations-143779 http://www.winsupersite.com/article/office-2013-beta2/office...
- Encosia 14y ago
  I haven't typed in Word on the Surface for a solid hour yet, but it hasn't bothered me in the x86 version on my desktop over the month or two I've been using 2013 there. Like joenathan said, it completely blends into the background pretty quickly.

chj 14y ago

Very few loves writing documents on a tablet. Most love games, musics, books, videos. If MS focus on selling office on RT, it will be a disaster for the product, and for the company. For long documents it's going to be slow no matter how they optimize it -- we all know word is not that fast even in a desktop computer, and now they even have issues with a two-page document.

jorts 14y ago

It's ridiculous that a journalist writing technical blogs didn't even check that his Surface was fully patched. That's the first thing you should do with any system. I don't own a Surface so I don't know whether Microsoft told users to update their Surface shortly after starting it up, but they definitely should have so that these types of articles don't get published.

objclxt 14y ago
I just bought a Surface from a Microsoft Store today, and the store assistant not only told me there were updates available but showed me how to update it. So they're definitely making a pro-active effort to encourage people to update where possible.
- jorts 14y ago
  I imagine that if it's anything like any version of Windows to come out since XP, or possibly even earlier, that updates are one of the first things that are presented to you post-install.
  - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
    It doesn't seem that this is the case this, its even obscured as an optional update. See the linked article for more information.
    - fel0niousmonk 14y ago
      'Obscured' isn't the right word. It's business as usual for office (and other non-system) updates to be under the 'Optional' category..
      - seanmcdirmid 14y ago
        One place to update apps on a system would be nice. I know windows as lots of legacy, but how many apps are optional system updates on windows rt?