7 ms·

If you're sold on Tailscale due to them "being open" (as they semi-officially support the development of Headscale), keep in mind, that at the same time some of

If you're sold on Tailscale due to them "being open" (as they semi-officially support the development of Headscale), keep in mind, that at the same time some of their clients are closed source and proprietary, and thus totally controlled by them and the official distribution channels, like Apple. Some of the arguments given for this stance are just ridiculous: > If users are comfortable running non-open operating systems or employers are comfortable with their employees running non-open operating systems, they should likewise be comfortable with Tailscale not being open on those platforms. https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/13717 https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/issues/13717 A solution like this can't really be relied in situations of limited connectivity and availability, even if technically it beats most of the competition. Don't ever forget it's just a business. Support free alternatives if you can, even if they underperform by some measures.

xyst 8mo ago
I switched to Netbird because of this.
8cvor6j844qw_d6 8mo ago
Went with ZeroTier and Netbird, they're not too bad.
- drcongo 8mo ago
  I keep hoping to switch to Netbird, but run into the same issue every time for the last couple of years I've been trying it - peers randomly drop of the network. There's a longish standing open issue on their GitHub.
- wolvoleo 8mo ago
  Zerotier is a lot harder to self-host than tailscale
- resiros 8mo ago
  Netbird is very good for my use case. Simple to set up, and just works.
- dizhn 8mo ago
  Don't they both have even more restrictions on the server side vs the paid service?
uneekname 8mo ago
I've been relatively happy with Headscale, but now that I have MacOS/iOS users I'm in the process of testing alternatives like Netbird. I was also surprised that the Tailscale Kubernetes operator is not compatible with Headscale.
dblohm7 8mo ago
(Tailscalar here) To be clear: it's only the GUIs that are closed source on selected platforms.
- colordrops 8mo ago
  Does that include android?
  - jbott 8mo ago
    https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale-android https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale-android
    - colordrops 8mo ago
      Nice, thanks.
    - Lammy 8mo ago
      Being open source means very little when they won't merge PRs, like this one to support disabling streaming one's network behavior to ` log.tailscale.com`: https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale-android/pull/695 https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale-android/pull/695
      - stavros 8mo ago
        Let's stop moving the goalposts. Open source has a specific definition, and "they merge whatever code I want them to" isn't part of it. Just fork the client, compile it, and run it yourself.
        Lammy 8mo ago
        [flagged]
        drcongo 8mo ago
        Open source = I should be able to fork it, change it, and use it Open source = The maintainers should build exactly what I hysterically scream at them If I had to choose one definition of open source from these two options, it's going to option 1 I'm afraid.
1vuio0pswjnm7 8mo ago
"Support free alternatives if you can, even if they underperform by some measure." I value _control_ more than I do performance Better performance is, IMHO, not a reason to sacrifice _control_, but that's just me If users have control, i.e., can compile from source, then in theory performance improvement is possible through DIY or work of others. However performance is not always the only important issue. Today's commercial software tends to be rushed, lower quality, bloated. Releasing work-in-progress software that requires constant remotely-installed "updates" in place of a thoroughly-tested final product is a norm Without control, if performance, _or anything else about the software_, is unsatisfactory, then there is nothing users can do
- Forgeties79 8mo ago
  Basically a lot of current software teams operate like many modern video game companies. Ship the broken thing, (maybe) repair/improve it as people suffer through the experience.
  - baq 8mo ago
    Turns out people see value in imperfect experiences.
    - Forgeties79 8mo ago
      There’s a difference between tolerating something and seeing its value. I tolerate lines at restaurants, I don’t see value in them for me. You’re also operating under the assumption that people always have a choice.
      - pastel8739 8mo ago
        But you clearly see value in the restaurant experience, even with the shortcoming of a line. Or else you wouldn’t go.
        Forgeties79 8mo ago
zarzavat 8mo ago
Seems like an odd thing to be concerned about. Most of the apps on my Mac are closed source, that little Tailscale menu bar item is really insignificant. You can always control it through the command line if you're really bothered by it. I'm pretty sure tailscale is on brew.
tshaddox 8mo ago
That justification honestly doesn't sound that ridiculous to me, especially if the closed-source stuff is mostly just platform-specific GUI and integration code. Is there even a practical mechanism to open source an iOS app and then letting users verify that the version they're downloading from the App Store is exactly the same version that is open sourced?
selfmodruntime 8mo ago
The entire idea is that they make money. Limited licenses are ignored incredibly often.
varenc 8mo ago
The CLI version of the Tailscale client on macOS can be compiled from source and installed without the app store: go install tailscale.com/cmd/tailscale{,d}@latest https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/wiki/Tailscaled-on-macOS https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/wiki/Tailscaled-on-ma... So fully available in situations with limited connectivity. The GUI version of the client is closed source though, and it's available as a package or from the app store.
pmarreck 8mo ago
I don't understand this attitude. Some humans have to eat and put a roof over their heads sometimes, and extracting consulting fees from open-source work (i.e. the Redhat model) is not always a paying business model. A hybrid model is often the best way to compromise. Disclaimer: I'm pursuing a similar solution on an app I'm working on. The CLI will be free and open-source (and will have feature parity with the GUI), but charging money for the GUI will also help support that development (and put my son through school etc.) And by "feature parity", I really mean it- The GUI will be translated into 22 languages... and so will the CLI. ;) (Claude initially argued against this feature. I made my arguments for it. It: "You make a compelling argument. Let's do it." LOL) The lowest level of it is already available and fully open-source: https://github.com/pmarreck/validate https://github.com/pmarreck/validate I'm building something on top of that which will have a nice GUI, do some other data integrity stuff, and also have a CLI. And will be for sale in the Mac and Windows app stores.
- wolvoleo 8mo ago
  Personally, I understand people need to make money but this tends to be a death spiral (enshittification). So I tend to go for solutions without those incentives at all. Or at least use the free self hosted option. I wonder why you jumped into the mesh vpn market, it's so saturated. Theres literally hundreds of solutions out there (niche ones included for the mainstream ones it's probably 10 or so), many non profit options included. Is there really a niche you can offer that the others don't? Edit: ah by doing the same thing you didn't necessarily mean a mesh vpn? I don't really understand what your thing does but not vpn. I was just saying it because there's a new Show HN mesh VPN thing weekly now.
  - gzread 8mo ago
    Another way to counteract enshittification is to pay for things, then stop paying when they enshittify.
    - ulrttrktwej 8mo ago
      just stop paying them, as though migrating to an alternative is free and easy
gzread 8mo ago
I thought Apple didn't allow open source apps to run on their devices?
mintflow 8mo ago
As a developer who have been built some tailscale-based clients, I think this maybe acceptable because they running a business with money from the VCs. And I am also very grateful that tailscale implement some workaround for systems such as apple-based OS with core APIs built into the open source code, thus if you really need you can just look the open source code and doing accordingly, though it really need some research work. For the long term if they really do not want to open source the core client code (which I do not believe at the moment), I think support a fully open source coordinator and open source client based on the fork will still be doable.
segmondy 8mo ago
where were the alternatives before tailscale? we could only read bout BeyondCore with envy before tailscale. i'm going to keep supporting them unless they do something naughty.

xyst 8mo ago

I switched to Netbird because of this.

8cvor6j844qw_d6 8mo ago

Went with ZeroTier and Netbird, they're not too bad.

drcongo 8mo ago
I keep hoping to switch to Netbird, but run into the same issue every time for the last couple of years I've been trying it - peers randomly drop of the network. There's a longish standing open issue on their GitHub.
wolvoleo 8mo ago
Zerotier is a lot harder to self-host than tailscale
resiros 8mo ago
Netbird is very good for my use case. Simple to set up, and just works.
dizhn 8mo ago
Don't they both have even more restrictions on the server side vs the paid service?

uneekname 8mo ago

I've been relatively happy with Headscale, but now that I have MacOS/iOS users I'm in the process of testing alternatives like Netbird. I was also surprised that the Tailscale Kubernetes operator is not compatible with Headscale.

dblohm7 8mo ago

(Tailscalar here) To be clear: it's only the GUIs that are closed source on selected platforms.

colordrops 8mo ago
Does that include android?
- jbott 8mo ago
  https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale-android https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale-android
  - colordrops 8mo ago
    Nice, thanks.
  - Lammy 8mo ago
    Being open source means very little when they won't merge PRs, like this one to support disabling streaming one's network behavior to ` log.tailscale.com`: https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale-android/pull/695 https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale-android/pull/695
    - stavros 8mo ago
      Let's stop moving the goalposts. Open source has a specific definition, and "they merge whatever code I want them to" isn't part of it. Just fork the client, compile it, and run it yourself.
      - Lammy 8mo ago
        [flagged]
        drcongo 8mo ago
        Open source = I should be able to fork it, change it, and use it Open source = The maintainers should build exactly what I hysterically scream at them If I had to choose one definition of open source from these two options, it's going to option 1 I'm afraid.

1vuio0pswjnm7 8mo ago

"Support free alternatives if you can, even if they underperform by some measure." I value _control_ more than I do performance Better performance is, IMHO, not a reason to sacrifice _control_, but that's just me If users have control, i.e., can compile from source, then in theory performance improvement is possible through DIY or work of others. However performance is not always the only important issue. Today's commercial software tends to be rushed, lower quality, bloated. Releasing work-in-progress software that requires constant remotely-installed "updates" in place of a thoroughly-tested final product is a norm Without control, if performance, _or anything else about the software_, is unsatisfactory, then there is nothing users can do

Forgeties79 8mo ago
Basically a lot of current software teams operate like many modern video game companies. Ship the broken thing, (maybe) repair/improve it as people suffer through the experience.
- baq 8mo ago
  Turns out people see value in imperfect experiences.
  - Forgeties79 8mo ago
    There’s a difference between tolerating something and seeing its value. I tolerate lines at restaurants, I don’t see value in them for me. You’re also operating under the assumption that people always have a choice.
    - pastel8739 8mo ago
      But you clearly see value in the restaurant experience, even with the shortcoming of a line. Or else you wouldn’t go.
      - Forgeties79 8mo ago

zarzavat 8mo ago

Seems like an odd thing to be concerned about. Most of the apps on my Mac are closed source, that little Tailscale menu bar item is really insignificant. You can always control it through the command line if you're really bothered by it. I'm pretty sure tailscale is on brew.

tshaddox 8mo ago

That justification honestly doesn't sound that ridiculous to me, especially if the closed-source stuff is mostly just platform-specific GUI and integration code. Is there even a practical mechanism to open source an iOS app and then letting users verify that the version they're downloading from the App Store is exactly the same version that is open sourced?

selfmodruntime 8mo ago

The entire idea is that they make money. Limited licenses are ignored incredibly often.

varenc 8mo ago

The CLI version of the Tailscale client on macOS can be compiled from source and installed without the app store: go install tailscale.com/cmd/tailscale{,d}@latest https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/wiki/Tailscaled-on-macOS https://github.com/tailscale/tailscale/wiki/Tailscaled-on-ma... So fully available in situations with limited connectivity. The GUI version of the client is closed source though, and it's available as a package or from the app store.

pmarreck 8mo ago

I don't understand this attitude. Some humans have to eat and put a roof over their heads sometimes, and extracting consulting fees from open-source work (i.e. the Redhat model) is not always a paying business model. A hybrid model is often the best way to compromise. Disclaimer: I'm pursuing a similar solution on an app I'm working on. The CLI will be free and open-source (and will have feature parity with the GUI), but charging money for the GUI will also help support that development (and put my son through school etc.) And by "feature parity", I really mean it- The GUI will be translated into 22 languages... and so will the CLI. ;) (Claude initially argued against this feature. I made my arguments for it. It: "You make a compelling argument. Let's do it." LOL) The lowest level of it is already available and fully open-source: https://github.com/pmarreck/validate https://github.com/pmarreck/validate I'm building something on top of that which will have a nice GUI, do some other data integrity stuff, and also have a CLI. And will be for sale in the Mac and Windows app stores.

wolvoleo 8mo ago
Personally, I understand people need to make money but this tends to be a death spiral (enshittification). So I tend to go for solutions without those incentives at all. Or at least use the free self hosted option. I wonder why you jumped into the mesh vpn market, it's so saturated. Theres literally hundreds of solutions out there (niche ones included for the mainstream ones it's probably 10 or so), many non profit options included. Is there really a niche you can offer that the others don't? Edit: ah by doing the same thing you didn't necessarily mean a mesh vpn? I don't really understand what your thing does but not vpn. I was just saying it because there's a new Show HN mesh VPN thing weekly now.
- gzread 8mo ago
  Another way to counteract enshittification is to pay for things, then stop paying when they enshittify.
  - ulrttrktwej 8mo ago
    just stop paying them, as though migrating to an alternative is free and easy

gzread 8mo ago

I thought Apple didn't allow open source apps to run on their devices?

mintflow 8mo ago

As a developer who have been built some tailscale-based clients, I think this maybe acceptable because they running a business with money from the VCs. And I am also very grateful that tailscale implement some workaround for systems such as apple-based OS with core APIs built into the open source code, thus if you really need you can just look the open source code and doing accordingly, though it really need some research work. For the long term if they really do not want to open source the core client code (which I do not believe at the moment), I think support a fully open source coordinator and open source client based on the fork will still be doable.

segmondy 8mo ago

where were the alternatives before tailscale? we could only read bout BeyondCore with envy before tailscale. i'm going to keep supporting them unless they do something naughty.