22 ms·

Why I'm returning my Microsoft Surface RT

361 points by magsafe 14y ago

pithon 14y ago
The experience he had trying to save the Word doc looks exactly like me every time I have to set up "Windows Live" inside a PC game. Has anyone else tried the SRT? This post alone is enough to scare me away.
- cargo8 14y ago
  I haven't tried the Surface RT specifically, but assuming it's the same or similar to the Windows 8 / Office 13 preview, the flow he clicked on looks like he was trying to save something to his Microsoft acct / skydrive (which is actually much better integrated into the File menu than it used to be), but I can imagine it is way overwhelming compared to the old-school save dialog...
shardling 14y ago
> I think the kickstand angle was designed for airplane use by short people, because the screen hardly goes back at all. Huh, in the Anandtech review they thought the kickstand worked well everywhere except airplanes.
- cargo8 14y ago
  He mentions that this again is only for short people, aka he would have liked for it to tilt back further (see comments about the camera angle)
  - what_ever 14y ago
    But usually taller people will have longer hands as well. That would increase the distance of the keyboard from the user's body and so the angle should still work.
    - uxp 14y ago
      He addressed that issue here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4706767 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4706767 He is tall, 6'3", but moving the surface away form him enough results in it being too far away to type.
    - cargo8 14y ago
      Also I think people complained about this because on airplanes you probably won't have the room to do this :-\
mtgx 14y ago
You'll probably return that one, too, after you see the poor battery life on it. Also, you may get some tablet usability with Metro on it (not many apps to choose from, though), but after using Windows 8 on a PC, I can say Windows 8 is worse in usability than Windows 7, so you will be definitely taking a step back when you'll be using the desktop mode. After using Windows 8 I just see no good reason for anyone to use it on an old PC instead of Windows 7. I only see drawbacks, such as the forced Metro interface, and the inconsistencies in the desktop mode UI, which seem like a patched-up job done 6 months before the release or something, to make it more "Metro".
- ladzoppelin 14y ago
  " Windows 8 on a PC, I can say Windows 8 is worse in usability than Windows 7" This is false. I have used both extensively and Windows 8 is better by a good margin.Actually my old POS HP laptop runs better with Windows 8 because of the driver, kernel and display improvements. No blogger can take away the fact that Windows 8 is very good however its funny to see them try.
  - malkia 14y ago
    Can this be even objective? To me XP with cygwin/far commander is where I get most productivity, but lots of people would hate that. I don't use much the explorer, unless for rather arcane things that I can't do from the command line (cmd.exe from far manager calling cygwin stuff, yes I rarely use the cygwin's bash too, but use it all the time on osx/linux).
  - mtgx 14y ago
    I installed Windows 8 on one of the first netbooks to appear (eee pc 1000h). The performance difference is not perceivable. If even at that level it's not, it will be even less on higher-end hardware. Even benchmarks show a 5% improvement at most in performance. What Windows 8 does do, though, is trick you into thinking it's running faster, or "smoother". It uses animations to make those 0.5-1-second delays a lot more bearable. But the underlying performance is virtually the same.
xbryanx 14y ago
Ahh, so they made Word behave like it does on OS X. Standardization.
- admiralpumpkin 14y ago
  A funny response (truly), but Office on OS X (which I use extensively) never lags like that for me, even on older Mac hardware (Core Duo from 2006 or so).
  - specialist 14y ago
    True. But, anecdotally, I never leave Office programs running, because they seem to chew thru my battery. I like Entourage better than Mail.app, but use Mail.app because it sips battery.
  - xbryanx 14y ago
    Sadly it totally does for me. And while this is different problem, Word on OS X still seems to think Copy-Paste is a computationally complex problem on par with decoding the human genome.
drivebyacct2 14y ago
I want a video of people using these as laptops. That's my biggest fear about springing for something like these. Even RT could be tolerable with the right apps as a remote machine with that keyboard, similar to what people do with Android+Transformer. I can program on it, work on remote machines. That having been said, assuming it's somewhat usable on a lap, I'll wait for the Pro too, I have several things that need x86.
- masklinn 14y ago
  > I want a video of people using these as laptops. Isn't it exactly what he's doing in the videos? edit: the second videos (saving a document in word) also makes many tap target seem laughably small compared to... the guy's fingers to start with. Am I dreaming?
  - drivebyacct2 14y ago
    Sorry, I literally mean as a LAPtop device. I want to see him use this in his lap. I have bad habits that leave my fingers a bit nubbier than they should be, but trying to use Office on the RT tablet at Best Buy was barely short of impossible. I'd HAVE to use the keyboard to use it for any amount of time.
    - Camillo 14y ago
      Don't use a laptop in your lap, unless you hate your back/wrists/neck.
      - meaty 14y ago
        I've been using one on my lap for 15 years to no ill effect...
  - BrentOzar 14y ago
    Brent the author here. Yes, the Office tap targets are indeed laughably small. I recorded a few versions of these videos trying to get the taps right. I didn't want to upload those because it would look like I'm purposely trying to tap in the wrong places, and then I'd get flamed for that - when in reality, the targets are just too small.
moistgorilla 14y ago
This is the risk you take by being an early adopter.
- grecy 14y ago
  ... of hardware and software that is not ready for prime time. How disappointed were buyers of the iPhone or iPad 1 ? Not, I think.
  - kyberias 14y ago
    I for one was very disappointed in iPad 1. Your point?
    - grecy 14y ago
      What specifically about the iPad was disappointed you? Was it a) because it was not quite ready for prime time, and subsequent updates fixed it, or was it b) because it simply didn't (and still doesn't) have features you wanted? When the answer is a), that shows a product was rushed and not ready i.e. the Surface RT from the sounds of this review.
      - kyberias 14y ago
        I don't think the choices you offer me are mutually exclusive. A product can also feel rushed because it lacks important features. The first iPad seemed very polished: I could scroll the screen and it was super smooth. It's just that I wanted to do much more than scroll the screen super smoothly. I still have an iPad but I use a Chromebook much more. Makes so much more sense even though it has a very plastic and may seem "rushed" to some, it works for me.
        grecy 14y ago
        > A product can also feel rushed because it lacks important features. I agree, when those features are (were) available and cost effective at the time of release, AND they are in fact added at a later date, which somewhat proves they probably should have been added in the first place. i.e. Complaining the first iPad was "rushed" because it didn't include 4G/LTE is nonsense. By that measure, I honestly can't think of an Apple product in the last 5 years that was "rushed", where-as it seems the Surface RT was/is.
SwearWord 14y ago
This seems like a pretty fair analysis. The positive is these all seem to be software issues that can easily be fixed in updates. I was just worried about bad hardware that can't be fixed. As a sidenote, maybe this is just an RT vs 8 thing but the Mail app did take me through a setup wizard when I first ran it.
dhawalhs 14y ago
I am extremely happy with the surface RT and more specifically IE10. Finally a desktop class browser on a tablet.
- grecy 14y ago
  Is safari on the iPad not desktop class?
  - richbradshaw 14y ago
    When the iPad 1 shipped, I wished that more people had a desktop browser of it's calibre!
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
  - rsynnott 14y ago
    I'm a little confused by this, yes. If anything, mobile Safari and Chrome for Android are more desktop-like than IE10 on WinRT; they have tab bars, and so forth.
dangrossman 14y ago
I'm excited about the prospect of a Windows 8 tablet. I'm willing to spend as much as it costs to get one. Unfortunately, nobody wants my money. Yesterday was the big retail launch. I was on a mission to check out what my local stores had and, if they had anything that could do the job for me, buy it. I've always wanted a tablet, but only if it could be as useful as a laptop when paired with a keyboard. The new Windows 8 tablets are supposed to be just that. Best Buy had one (1) Windows 8 tablet. It was a Asus Vivo Tab running Windows RT... supposedly. I don't want an RT tab, and this store didn't even have a working floor model of the one tablet they were selling. The one they had was stuck on a "failed to automatically repair Windows" screen. It was also glued to the display stand so I couldn't pick it up and get a feel for the hardware. OfficeMax had zero (0) Windows 8 tablets. Heck, they had no Windows 8 touch screen laptops either. Or price tags. Or product specs. Or anything I could play with, really. There was one employee there setting up a display model of some laptop while complaining to another about how they were supposed to have tags for the computers but had none. Their electronics section was a joke. Staples had one (1) Windows 8 tablet. It was a Samsung ATIV running Windows 8. Success! I actually spent some time playing with this one. Again, I couldn't really get a feel for the hardware, or specifically the weight, given it's got a pound of security alarms and tethers bolted onto the back chaining it to the display area. Beyond that, the specs just weren't up to snuff -- with 2GB RAM and 64GB storage, I'd just barely be able to run enough software to occasionally use it as a portable development machine. With nothing installed on it, there was only 14GB of free space -- the OS and preinstalled apps were using 50GB of the 64GB out of the box. So all those trips were a waste of time. There's no Microsoft Store anywhere within 4 hours of me, so those 3 were the full range of retail options here. I'm basically looking for a Surface Pro (Intel Core processor, 4GB RAM, 128GB storage). It's amazing that despite knowing Microsoft would be building this, nobody else built something comparable, and stores aren't carrying even the few tablets/hybrids they did build.
- colmvp 14y ago
  Is it possible just to order it online?
  - dangrossman 14y ago
jiggy2011 14y ago
He seems to be using the Surface RT in desktop mode in that video. I thought this was not supposed to be possible, is that untrue?
- kenjackson 14y ago
  There's a full desktop on Surface RT. I was rather surprised that it was a nearly full feature desktop. You can run full batch scripts, copy files, etc... You can't install applications on it though.
- danieldk 14y ago
  It currently exists for Office, because it isn't fully ported to Metro yet.
  - richbradshaw 14y ago
    To be fair, it's not as if the Office team had a heads up that a table would be sold with marketing specifically explaining that it runs Office, whilst simultaneously being sold on the new Modern UI. Oh, wait, my mistake.
    - ConstantineXVI 14y ago
      The Office team is notorious for getting their way inside MS, from what I understand. Which could very well include "we won't be touching WinRT with a 40 foot pole". More practically speaking, "portable" is a word that I highly doubt describes the Office codebase. If there's a team working on a Metro version, I do not envy them at all.
- sounds 14y ago
  The videos clearly show him using the Windows 8 UI to launch Office, open a document, then later to launch Mail.
- dangrossman 14y ago
  Windows 8 and Windows RT are the same OS. Both have the desktop, with all the standard desktop features. Taskbar, system tray, Explorer, control panels, etc. The only difference between the two is that Windows RT can only install apps from the Windows Store, which are all Metro apps.
Anechoic 14y ago
"The diagonally-oriented camera is strange. In the one orientation it’s optimized for, it’s slightly annoying. In any other orientation, it’s almost intolerable. " "The built-in front-facing camera for Skype is angled so that it’ll work great when the kickstand is open, but again, only for Danny DeVito, or maybe for people who want to show off their chests in Skype." ------ "The Touch Cover is one of the Surface’s biggest innovations. I thought I would hate it, but I didn’t. It’s not like typing on a completely flat surface: each “key” is raised slightly, so while there isn’t any mechanical feedback, it does feel a bit like a keyboard." "The Type Cover (the one with real keys) just works. I’ve got big hands that often struggle on undersized keyboards, but I can type very quickly on the Type Cover." ------ "He showed me Office, which was almost unusable: it was extremely sluggish, and touch targets were tiny and difficult to hit." "So quickly, in fact, that I can outrun Microsoft Word on the Surface. I get the feeling that the Surface RT’s CPU or Word code just can’t keep up with my typing. Here’s an example video:" ------- "The standard gestures don’t help, requiring many in-from-the-edge swipes that not only aren’t discoverable" "After waiting over a minute for the machine to boot and launch the mail app, I got a blank gradient screen. User interface 101: if the app needs to be set up on the first launch, offer to do that, please. Folks from Twitter suggested that I swipe out from the right side and click Accounts" -- So, can we conclude that these observations might be real (V. 1) problems without resorting to ad-homs regarding the author?
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Hi. Brent here, the post author. Thanks for making the point. I had hoped that by recording videos of the problems, I wouldn't get attacked as just making off the cuff observations. Readers can see the problems for themselves. Still getting attacked by the fanbois, though, and that's a little disappointing.
  - UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
    I don't think anything you do can reach that audience. The only thing that MIGHT alter their perception is trying it themselves and even then it takes a lot. But outside of that niche group I think your videos very well demonstrate the issues in a fairly indefensible way. The save issue in particular is the worst as you never treat people's files/work with that much disregard.
brudgers 14y ago
I bought one of those Microsoft touch mice. I was getting ready to install the Windows 8 Consumer Preview, and after watching the video, it looked like a great option...and simultaneously, my Logitech Mouse had a dying mosfet switch so I was in the market for a new mouse anyway. [Really, I wasn't just rationalizing buying sexy technology]. It wasn't the first time I've bough I Microsoft mouse. I bought one back about a decade or so ago when another Logitech mouse died. It suffered the same fate as the Microsoft touch mouse. It was returned to the store and exchanged for another Logitech - for exactly the same reason. Neither was acceptable for my workflow. Unsurprisingly, I spend a meaningful amount of time using CAD/BIM software. The touch mouse zoomed in when I adjusted my grip ("drawing" with a mouse largely involves holding it). There was no way to program the gestures. Likewise, the earlier Microsoft mouse had lots of buttons, but no way to program the middle button as a middle button - as an early "many button" mouse, the middle button had some dedicated function and I had about a decade of muscle memory and projects to push out the door. The author is experiencing the same thing. The new device isn't tailored to his workflow. It probably isn't reasonable to expect it to be. It's competitors aren't; most people don't have a similar workflow; and it's still version one of the software (Word for RT). This doesn't excuse the devices performance. But it also puts the author's experience in perspective. Right now, he's somewhat of an edge use case.
- garrettlarson 14y ago
  He encountered problems typing at a reasonable speed, saving a Word document, videoconferencing, and opening the mail client. They sound like issues that can be corrected with a software update, but I don't think they're specific to his workflow.
  - brudgers 14y ago
    Compare these activities to the way in which the Surface's competition handles them...e.g typing, creating documents, video conferencing, and configuring email on an iPad. The author's expectations were that the Surface would be as productive as a Windows laptop. Nobody expects an iPad to be as productive as a MacBook.
powertower 14y ago
Surface with Windows RT is supposed to be a stripped down version of Windows, that runs 99% in Metro-mode, not Desktop-mode. Right now there are two exceptions to this: Office (preview version - buggy) and a Desktop-mode version of IE. Everything else is 100% Metro. And I don't think you can even install anything yourself on it except via it's App Store. Hence it's Desktop-mode is not really there for the benefit of the consumer. And the Office offering will need to be further ported and refined for RT before everything is worked out. I'm not even sure why they put Office on it. It's a device made mostly for browsing the internet and running some apps while holding it in your hands. Which is what the bigger market is for. While this was a good and honest review, I think his use-case is off on this one and he will be better suited waiting for Surface with Windows 8 Pro. I would also be curious to know what his height is, so I'd know what "for short people" means... The pics I've been able to find of the author, he's at least 6'2", maybe even 6'5". If you are as toll as the author, you could probably either move the device away a bit, zoom out the image, or perhaps put something underneath it's stand to angle it properly.
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Brent the author here. I'm 6'3". I can move the Surface RT away from me to the point where I'm fully in the camera, but then I can't reach the keyboard. That doesn't quite work.
  - powertower 14y ago
    Do you think it's possible to mod the plastic peace that is the back-stand by shortning it? Is it removable or replacable itself? Could be a good kickstarter idea... "Surface RT stand for tall people."
    - konstruktor 14y ago
      According to the initial surface presentation, the piece isn't plastic but metal.
    - BrentOzar 14y ago
      It's made out of a very solid-feeling metal (VaporMG), and it feels like it'd be quite difficult to shorten. I do really like the idea of replacing it with a shorter piece though.
ConstantineXVI 14y ago
I've had mine since 10AM yesterday; and I'm actually fairly pleased, at least for effectively being a new platform. Thoughts, in no particular order: - Love the build. Very solid overall. - 16:9 means it's one long tablet. Oddly, it's actually fairly usable in portrait; can't say the same for my old 16:10 Transformer (maybe just better balanced?) - The touch cover is, like most say, surprisingly usable. Desperately needs a way to no-op Caps Lock though. - Screen res lower than iPad, but still usable. Difference not near as noticeable as between iPad 2/3, but too many factors in play to make an objective call there. - Metro takes getting used to, but I like it (even with KB/trackpad). - It's the first time I've seen proper desktop Gmail and Google Docs usable in a tablet browser. - Performance is generally decent. Not blazing, but decent. - Windows RT appears to still contain far more of Windows than we've been led to believe. Even `csc` is installed, but missing a few dlls. - No SSH client for Metro yet. That's one of the risks you take on a new platform (esp. a non-Unix one), but still aggravates me. - Snapping is very, very handy; nice solution to bring proper multitasking to a tablet UI. - When touch-scrolling over on desktop apps (what few remain), the entire window "bounces" at the head/tail of the content. Odd decision. - No central notification bin (like Android's shade or iOS's Notification Center). Have to rely on scanning Live Tiles if you miss anything. - The back camera seems to exist only to make the iPad 2's back camera feel better about itself. Has to be the blockiest camera I've ever seen. - Handwriting recognition is pretty solid. Wacom junkies will be very pleased when so-equipped tablets ship. (Capacitive styli still suck) - None of the Twitter apps have really thrilled me. Given the circumstances, I'm not that surprised. - OS-level share support is a smart move; similar to Android's impl but more thorough (sharing pops up a share pane from your selected app in the sidebar, instead of bouncing you out of your current app entirely). - Printing is mildly unintuitive; you have to open the "Devices" charm and pick your printer. No one is going to guess that's how to print. - On the bright side, our network printer/scanner was detected and installed immediately, with zero user intervention. Very, very far cry from the WinXP days. - There's no way to see your precise battery life outside of the desktop (in the classic sys-tray). - Presumably due to the use of pressure sensors vs. capacitive, the Touch Cover isn't quite as accurate without a solid surface underneath. - If you're not using the keyboard (watching movies, etc.), flip the cover backwards with the kickstand out and it's nearly as stable as a laptop. - The intro tells you about the basic edge swipes (right for charms, left for app switcher, top/bottom for menu); not mentioned is swiping straight from top-center to bottom kills the current app. - Screenshot is Win+VolDown. - Wordament can be played while snapped. This is dangerous. - IE lets you swipe on the outer edge of the page for back/forward, which would be smart if this didn't occasionally clash with the app switcher. Questions? (PS: I typed this entire post on the Touch Cover.)
dzhiurgis 14y ago
qwerty keyboards were designed to slow down the typists thus preventing typewriter jamming. Perhaps MS should redesign it again to make it even slower, so the Surface would be able to keep up?
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  QWERTY wasn't designed to slow down typists it was designed to speed up typist by preventing jams. http://home.earthlink.net/~dcrehr/whyqwert.html http://home.earthlink.net/~dcrehr/whyqwert.html
- grecy 14y ago
  > qwerty keyboards were designed to slow down the typists What were "the typists" typing on before qwerty?
magsafe 14y ago
An old post from an ex-Microsoftie, which might explain some of this Windows RT mess: http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2011/03/24/first-windows-phone-update-only-going-out-to-unlocked-phones/#comment-7276 http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2011/03/24/first-windows-phon...
mandelbrot 14y ago
In the email video he could be seen typing his password. Even though you cannot see the actual keys the reflection gives some idea about what is being pressed. Do you think you could guess his password from that?
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Brent the author here. I use Google's app-specific passwords and I've already disabled my Surface RT passwords when I boxed it back up this morning. I salute you though!
option_greek 14y ago
This is off topic but, compare this review to the one written by Marco Arment and you will know the difference between constructive criticism and fanboy-ism.
- shuw 14y ago
  the majority of Marco's post was about the experience of the Microsoft Store
- X-Istence 14y ago
  Marco Arment was more showcasing the differences between the Apple store and the Microsoft store. At the Apple store I can be left alone by simply walking up to a display and playing with a device. Maybe a sales person will come up to me and ask me if they can help me, let them know that I am just checking things out and they leave. At the Microsoft store you can't get a single moment of privacy with a device to play with it. The sales person will continue to talk, they will take over from whatever you are trying to do/play with, they want to discuss specs, they want to showcase very specific pieces of technology, they never leave you alone, even if you end up straight up asking. Granted, Marco's post was slanted in that he is an developer for the Apple eco-system, but that doesn't mean that his post didn't contain the truth. I myself have experienced exactly that at the Microsoft stores. They try to hard to copy the Apple stores, but fall hard.
  - shoota 14y ago
    I was just at a Microsoft store this morning and I did not find the above experience to be true at all. In fact when I stopped by the Apple store the staff was much more intrusive.
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Brent the author here. Thanks, I really appreciate that comment - especially in light of all the flack I've gotten for the review. I'd read Marco's post, and I was disappointed in that too. He has valid points, but it's tough to hear them through the rage.
jimbobimbo 14y ago
The lag in Word is more likely caused by an option that makes Office use accelerated graphics. I don't know why this option even exists - I've yet to see someone liking how typing in Office applications works with it being on...
- mortenjorck 14y ago
  Shouldn't accelerated graphics result in screen redraws that are... faster?
  - jimbobimbo 14y ago
    That's the biggest puzzle this option presents.
  - Too 14y ago
    Usually accelerated graphics are pretty bad at adding new stuff, due to the overhead of moving things from cpu to gpu. Instead they are crazy fast at drawing the same stuff over and over again with slight modifications by simply rotating and moving the already loaded objects.
seanica 14y ago
I hope he's changed his password. In one of the vids it's fairly easy to workout what he was typing to login.
mladenkovacevic 14y ago
Bugginess and software weirdness aside, the thing that struck me as most awkward is the keyboard/touch interface paradigm. It required him floating his entire arm to reach out and touch specific dialogues. This seems like a huge sacrifice of touch precision and a strain on your arm. I predict that most people get a Bluetooth mouse for it and use it in either laptop mode or tablet mode - not a combination of both.
- EwanG 14y ago
  On a Latitude 10 running Win 8 I find that a travel 3-port USB hub and travel sized mouse and keyboard is rather efficient. Of course I found that for a lot of things on my Android tablet a mouse made a world of difference as well. The reality is that as we start pushing these things to be our main screen rather than an accessory screen, the interface size being 10 inches or less makes working with detail items difficult. Whether it's Win 8 or Android, if you have to select from a multi-item list a mouse is still easier to use than touch.
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  I've heard that complaint (gorilla arm) as a big detractor for touch-based user interfaces, but it didn't bother me much when I was using it. The biggest change was that I had to adapt - I'm so used to using the touchpad, but the touchpad on the Surface RT keyboards is just too small. It's easier to point and touch the screen, and it wasn't too uncomfortable. I'm already used to using tablets, though, so I might not be the best person to answer that. My bigger concern was the very tiny touch points on the dialogs, especially in Office. I repeatedly touched the wrong spots, wrong options, opened the wrong folders in Explorer, etc.
tjdetwiler 14y ago
I think it's great to see MS trying something new and exploring interfaces that aren't just a rip-off or evolution of Apple designs.
prayaagk 14y ago
I don't think his post and reason are highly analytic. Rather its result of working so hard to find out even smallest issue with Microsoft's new product No product are perfect in that regard. Remember first iPhone ? first Android ? first iPad ? Camera viewpoint doesn't cover your face when you put tablet on kickstand mode? put it little away. what's wrong. Other leading tablets in market doesn't even have one. Its been stated design wonder along with cover with keyboard. Should appreciate instead. All issues noted in this article are exaggeration except the live sign-in bug while saving office doc.
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Brent the author here. "Even the smallest issue" - errr, if the big selling point of the tablet is the keyboard, and Word can't keep up with me typing, that's not a small issue for me. I can understand how it would be a small issue for most folks, because most folks don't use tablets for Office. I wanted this tablet because it was specifically marketed as the work-friendly tablet. If I move the tablet far enough away that I'm in the picture, then I can't touch the keyboard. That's a problem.
  - prayaagk 14y ago
    "Can you honestly tell us you watched the videos?" - Yes I did. But my main point is, the post, isn't kinda review. Kickstand issue and mail app issues , isn't that big to be dither about. Approach to response should be more sort of balanced rather than fault-finding and whining. " it was specifically marketed as the work-friendly tablet." - But that doesn't mean that we should expect powerhouse performance and after all its RT. Wait for pro if you want that performance. At least it is doing something better than other competition? No one can deny that its better in terms of "work-ready" than iPad or Android tab. Instead of whining about small issues why can't be appreciate what they are trying to build ? "They are not competing against first generation offering. This is not some child thats needs love and support. This is a commercial product from a for-profit company at a high price." - Its something like complaining why new hybrid car in market not running x miles at xx speed , when a company brings new hybrid car in market at the time every car maker are busy making gas cars. There are lots of thing promising about Surface. USB port, Smart Glass, Solid hardware, Office etc. Following is the post I would call more natural balanced response. http://mattblogsit.com/2012/10/27/is-the-microsoft-surface-for-me/ http://mattblogsit.com/2012/10/27/is-the-microsoft-surface-f... There are flaws out there. But which product in world don't have them. Are they something, which you can claim that, you are returning your product for ?
alpb 14y ago
Are all the HN upvoters are retarded? This is not Surface RT. RT does not have a classic Windows Desktop environment. It only has metro. This is a Surface Pro, which has not been released yet. Slowness is totally understandable because that guy installed an OS X on an iPad, which is the same thing as using Win8 full desktop environment on Surface RT hardware.
- rahoulb 14y ago
  You are wrong. windows RT includes the desktop environment but you can't install any new apps to it - all you have is Office and Explorer. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6392/the-windows-rt-review/8 http://www.anandtech.com/show/6392/the-windows-rt-review/8 http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/23/3537710/windows-8-review http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/23/3537710/windows-8-review
- macspoofing 14y ago
  >Are all the HN upvoters are retarded? This is not Surface RT. RT does not have a classic Windows Desktop environment. It only has metro. Either they are all 'retarded' and you are the one in the right, or vice-versa. Which do you think is more likely?
- eburley 14y ago
  I have it in front of me and confirm that the RT does have a desktop environment with office, and if you hit window+r some other programs, like cmd, and powershell.
- hkuo 14y ago
  I imagine Microsoft could have a very lenient policy with its employees speaking on behalf of the company's interests, but its very dangerous territory if you don't approach it with respect and sensitivity. Personally I think it's simply best to not speak publicly on behalf of the company you work for unless its your job to do so.
joejohnson 14y ago
I was excited when I heard Microsoft was making a tablet and entering this market. Apple doesn't face any strong competition in this market, and because they are so far ahead of their nearest rival (Samsung?) they don't really need to innovate for a cycle or two, and their designs could stagnate. But the Surface will not be true competition to Apple. This product fails in too many ways, and I predict that the iPad will remain dominant for at least a few years to come.
gojomo 14y ago
The advice to "wait for the one due in a few months that needs a fan" makes me wonder if this author's sweet spot for tablets is anywhere near mine. I hate fans. (And does such advice mean the author is literally a fan-boy? A fan-fan-boy?)
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Brent the author here. When I say wait for the one with a fan, I'm just giving guidance to people who really want the Windows experience. I hate fans too.
  - gojomo 14y ago
    Sure, I understand you weren't touting the fan itself as a benefit and I appreciated your overall writeup. I just had to share my double-take at seeing the ideas "will have a fan" and "worth waiting for" so close together.
werdnanoslen 14y ago
Still waiting on decent linux-capable tablets...
- amcintyre 14y ago
  Surely by now somebody's managed to get Linux on a Surface RT? It sounds from the review like the hardware is pretty good, just the software that's lacking.
- mtgx 14y ago
  Already here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItkWCmkxBv0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItkWCmkxBv0 However, I would wait at least for Cortex A15 chips to arrive, especially if you're going to want to use Unity, which isn't exactly a race horse on PC's either. I'm sure Canonical will port Ubuntu to the upcoming Nexus 10, too.
georgemcbay 14y ago
I posted about this before: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4660871 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4660871 and I still think it is true... IMO Microsoft made a mistake by leading out with the RT. Leading with the Pro and then offering the RT as a feature-reduced lower cost version would have cut down on the confusion as to what RT really is and lessened the initial impression that the Windows 8 experience is kind of underwhelming.
- pycassa 14y ago
  they want to fill the microsoft store.. so they wanted to get the rt version first.. and frankly no one will pay attention if any of the OEMs release an RT tablet/laptop.. simply, they wanted a successful RT tablet.. they decided to do it themselves..
tlogan 14y ago
I played with Microsoft Surface and my problem with it is that IT IS A LAPTOP. The interface is pretty much made for laptop (you need to have keyboard), and size is a little too big for tablet. It is not something I might be using while watching TV. It is weird combo of laptop and tablet.
Maakuth 14y ago
I hope someone works around the UEFI secure boot soon, I would be very interested in having this as a Linux tablet.
paul9290 14y ago
I was thinking of making this my next PC purchase, but after watching a video in this blog post I see i would be forced to use the touchscreen as there is not a built in trackpad on that cover/keyboard thing. Overall the design looked cool, as I am interested in tablet with an attached keyboard with a trackpad. Though I want a tablet/PC type of device that allows me to use it as a tablet or a PC laptop. I guess the Surface is not what I imagined.
- ConstantineXVI 14y ago
  Except it does have a trackpad. It's right there below the spacebar. It's tiny, but it's there and it works.
- edandersen 14y ago
  It has a trackpad and also supports USB mice, even a range of weird USB wireless mouse dongles.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
kyberias 14y ago
It's as if the author really hurried to return the device so that he can write the blog article. Insane.
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Brent the author here. I'm heading out on a two week road trip to speak at a few conferences. I hurried to get the device usable before I fly out to Vegas on Sunday for DevConnections, and I started putting it through its paces right away. I wanted to feel confident that I'd be able to rely on it as a backup presentation device and leave my iPad at home. After the 2-week road trip, I'm home for a few days, then out of the country for vacation. I wouldn't be able to return the Surface easily over the next month, so that's why I made the decision to bail. Plus, I gotta be honest - I don't think there's going to be a resale value for these, so I didn't want to take a $200-$300 bath by selling it on eBay in a couple of months.
  - kyberias 14y ago
    A lot of reasons but none of those are related to the device itself. I think it's fairly obvious that you could have waited a while and the software (!) problems you experienced would be fixed with an update. I think you just originally wanted to write a negative blog post about "returning the device". Weird.
    - greedo 14y ago
      So in other words, the Surface wasn't ready...
Groxx 14y ago
And this is one of the reasons I despise modal dialogs of all kinds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wwhv8U614Vo&t=2m10s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W... When they go bad, they're catastrophically bad.
edandersen 14y ago
Biggest issue so far for me with Surface's WinRT - no alternative browsers, so no Adblock. I can't believe this is what the desktop web really looks like.
stcredzero 14y ago
From the comments: > I admit, I fully expected a tablet version of my laptop. I wanted it to do everything my laptop could do, but with the added bonus of the touch screen, so I can play my games that make my phone freeze up while I’m sitting at my kids dance or karate classes. If you're technically savvy enough to understand and follow focus of GUI elements, and don't mind a stylus, then there are a number of existing tablets that will fit this bill. In fact, they've been around since ~2000.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Yes, laptop tablets have a touch screen, but they are really just not the same thing. Have you used one much? Unless they've made huge progress in the last few years, a laptop tablet is like a laptop, upon whose screen you can WRITE with a stylus. They are not touch devices like we think of today.
  - stcredzero 14y ago
    Have you used an early 2000's stylus tablet like a tc1100? I'm talking about those, not touch screen laptops. http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tr/gallery/hptr1105/Image00021_small.jpg http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tr/gallery/hptr1105/Image00021_... > a laptop tablet is like a laptop, upon whose screen you can WRITE with a stylus. They are not touch devices like we think of today. Please re-read. I am saying exactly this. The only way they are alike is they are somewhat in the same class of portability. The tc1100 is a beast at 3 pounds, but you can actually watch YouTube and browse the web in bed with one. I know, because I've done it. Doesn't work for the general public because ordinary people can't keep track of GUI item focus.
trotsky 14y ago
tl;dr - microsoft word on a brand new cpu architecture, ui style and input system is a bit laggy.
- ronaldj 14y ago
  Also, you can get locked in the save dialog and can't recover your document in Word. This seems more serious than the lag.
madoublet 14y ago
Brent, thanks for this. It is odd because Windows 8 Pro is really smooth. Lets hope someone at Microsoft gets a hold of this and they release an update sooner-then-later.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
anonymfus 14y ago
Update of Office for final version was available at the day of launch. Why you did not install it?
lnanek2 14y ago
So...this is a good opportunity to write a word processing app for the Windows 8 store. Score! It's well known what people like with those...
Metrop0218 14y ago
Welcome to the life of an early adopter. It is a bit buggier than we'd like, but you know we'll receive updates before the year is up that will address a lot of the problems. I do wish that it could've been shipped with higher performance, but Windows on ARM was a big endeavor. Achieving the amount of polish that we see on Intel's chips is going to take a bit of time.
BindersFOW 14y ago
Hi everyone. The author brings up great points and its really important for MSFT to address the kickstand's adjustability or even adjust the camera angle automatically. Regarding the other points of the author, i think he should install the updates after which Office RT becomes a productivity beast. Also, there is one aspect of the surface and windows 8 in general nobody has touched in this whole thread which is smartGlass. Coupled with Xbox, this device becomes a wonderful companion to the vastly improved xbox-kinect bundle and so far, i really don't have any complaints about it except the fact that i can't code on it although someone mentioned csc works on it sans some dlls.
pedro-alejandro 14y ago
People are using the surface primarily without a mouse, the way a tablet is supposed to be used. Yet there's still so many tiny touch targets all over the place when classic Windows stuff pops up. I cringe when I see video reviews of people trying to laser-tap these and miss a few times until they get it.
magic5227 14y ago
What genius decided RT was a good name? Honestly.
stevenwei 14y ago
To me, the user experience issues are the biggest failures of all: - A mail app that opens to a completely blank screen with no cues on how to continue. - An infinite login dialog that doesn't allow you to cancel and back out. Wanting software that offers a pleasant and intuitive user experience doesn't mean that you want software that's dumbed down for grandma, and I'm sad that people are portraying it that way. I've read my share of man pages and hand written my Xorg.confs many times in previous lives, I'm no stranger to complex and arcane software setup procedures. But in 2012, in the world of smartphones and tablets, this is stuff that should just work. The answer to "the mail app is completely blank on launch" shouldn't be "sorry, you failed to read the manual". Ever. And while I greatly respect Microsoft's attempt at entering this market, someone on their team, at some point, had to look at these issues[1] and say, "okay, this software is ready to ship anyway". That does not bode well. [1] The alternative, I suppose, is that no one noticed. Which is even worse.
goodereader 14y ago
We did a review of the surface tablet here - http://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/review-of-the-microsoft-surface-rt-windows-8-tablet/ http://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/review-of-the-micr... also vs the ipad 3 here - http://goodereader.com/blog/good-e-reader-videos/microsoft-surface-vs-apple-ipad-3/ http://goodereader.com/blog/good-e-reader-videos/microsoft-s... the pro might be a better investment, but most of the apps crash/buggy, not really worth being an early adopter with this product.
cboss 14y ago
Quote: "The problem with Windows "apps" is that they are made inefficient and un-optimized by default" As a WIN32 developer for the last ten years I would have to agree that a good bit of software today for Windows lacks performance. Why ? IMO a lot has to do with mindset of not only developers, but also those who produce the programming languages developers use. I would venture to say that most programmers would admit that the computer they develop on is likely a more advanced computer than most mass market PC's. They like i5 or i7 CPU's, 8,16 or more gigs of memory, SSD's, etc. The mass market PC though, to be affordable comes far less equipped. This is why when I write software, my development PC is closer to a more mass market PC. I need to feel the problems with performance the moment I compile and run. Now if you write apps which run fast on a slow PC, imagine how they will run on the higher end devices.
hp79 14y ago
I love my surface, and I have no slowdown in Word and OneNote after installing the 600MB or so update. I have a touch keyboard. What I'm disappointed about is that the bottom edge of the glass is not completely flat. This shows poor build quality, and I expected at least Apple quality from this device. I also tried a second one, and it also has non flat glass on the bottom edge. All the demo units had this problem too. Try reflecting a straight line on that part of the screen and you will know what I mean. It does bug me a bit because I expect a high standard for a $600 ARM tablet.

361 points by magsafe 14y ago

The experience he had trying to save the Word doc looks exactly like me every time I have to set up "Windows Live" inside a PC game. Has anyone else tried the SRT? This post alone is enough to scare me away.

cargo8 14y ago
I haven't tried the Surface RT specifically, but assuming it's the same or similar to the Windows 8 / Office 13 preview, the flow he clicked on looks like he was trying to save something to his Microsoft acct / skydrive (which is actually much better integrated into the File menu than it used to be), but I can imagine it is way overwhelming compared to the old-school save dialog...

shardling 14y ago

> I think the kickstand angle was designed for airplane use by short people, because the screen hardly goes back at all. Huh, in the Anandtech review they thought the kickstand worked well everywhere except airplanes.

cargo8 14y ago
He mentions that this again is only for short people, aka he would have liked for it to tilt back further (see comments about the camera angle)
- what_ever 14y ago
  But usually taller people will have longer hands as well. That would increase the distance of the keyboard from the user's body and so the angle should still work.
  - uxp 14y ago
    He addressed that issue here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4706767 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4706767 He is tall, 6'3", but moving the surface away form him enough results in it being too far away to type.
  - cargo8 14y ago
    Also I think people complained about this because on airplanes you probably won't have the room to do this :-\

mtgx 14y ago

You'll probably return that one, too, after you see the poor battery life on it. Also, you may get some tablet usability with Metro on it (not many apps to choose from, though), but after using Windows 8 on a PC, I can say Windows 8 is worse in usability than Windows 7, so you will be definitely taking a step back when you'll be using the desktop mode. After using Windows 8 I just see no good reason for anyone to use it on an old PC instead of Windows 7. I only see drawbacks, such as the forced Metro interface, and the inconsistencies in the desktop mode UI, which seem like a patched-up job done 6 months before the release or something, to make it more "Metro".

ladzoppelin 14y ago
" Windows 8 on a PC, I can say Windows 8 is worse in usability than Windows 7" This is false. I have used both extensively and Windows 8 is better by a good margin.Actually my old POS HP laptop runs better with Windows 8 because of the driver, kernel and display improvements. No blogger can take away the fact that Windows 8 is very good however its funny to see them try.
- malkia 14y ago
  Can this be even objective? To me XP with cygwin/far commander is where I get most productivity, but lots of people would hate that. I don't use much the explorer, unless for rather arcane things that I can't do from the command line (cmd.exe from far manager calling cygwin stuff, yes I rarely use the cygwin's bash too, but use it all the time on osx/linux).
- mtgx 14y ago
  I installed Windows 8 on one of the first netbooks to appear (eee pc 1000h). The performance difference is not perceivable. If even at that level it's not, it will be even less on higher-end hardware. Even benchmarks show a 5% improvement at most in performance. What Windows 8 does do, though, is trick you into thinking it's running faster, or "smoother". It uses animations to make those 0.5-1-second delays a lot more bearable. But the underlying performance is virtually the same.

xbryanx 14y ago

Ahh, so they made Word behave like it does on OS X. Standardization.

admiralpumpkin 14y ago
A funny response (truly), but Office on OS X (which I use extensively) never lags like that for me, even on older Mac hardware (Core Duo from 2006 or so).
- specialist 14y ago
  True. But, anecdotally, I never leave Office programs running, because they seem to chew thru my battery. I like Entourage better than Mail.app, but use Mail.app because it sips battery.
- xbryanx 14y ago
  Sadly it totally does for me. And while this is different problem, Word on OS X still seems to think Copy-Paste is a computationally complex problem on par with decoding the human genome.

drivebyacct2 14y ago

I want a video of people using these as laptops. That's my biggest fear about springing for something like these. Even RT could be tolerable with the right apps as a remote machine with that keyboard, similar to what people do with Android+Transformer. I can program on it, work on remote machines. That having been said, assuming it's somewhat usable on a lap, I'll wait for the Pro too, I have several things that need x86.

masklinn 14y ago
> I want a video of people using these as laptops. Isn't it exactly what he's doing in the videos? edit: the second videos (saving a document in word) also makes many tap target seem laughably small compared to... the guy's fingers to start with. Am I dreaming?
- drivebyacct2 14y ago
  Sorry, I literally mean as a LAPtop device. I want to see him use this in his lap. I have bad habits that leave my fingers a bit nubbier than they should be, but trying to use Office on the RT tablet at Best Buy was barely short of impossible. I'd HAVE to use the keyboard to use it for any amount of time.
  - Camillo 14y ago
    Don't use a laptop in your lap, unless you hate your back/wrists/neck.
    - meaty 14y ago
      I've been using one on my lap for 15 years to no ill effect...
- BrentOzar 14y ago
  Brent the author here. Yes, the Office tap targets are indeed laughably small. I recorded a few versions of these videos trying to get the taps right. I didn't want to upload those because it would look like I'm purposely trying to tap in the wrong places, and then I'd get flamed for that - when in reality, the targets are just too small.

moistgorilla 14y ago

This is the risk you take by being an early adopter.

grecy 14y ago
... of hardware and software that is not ready for prime time. How disappointed were buyers of the iPhone or iPad 1 ? Not, I think.
- kyberias 14y ago
  I for one was very disappointed in iPad 1. Your point?
  - grecy 14y ago
    What specifically about the iPad was disappointed you? Was it a) because it was not quite ready for prime time, and subsequent updates fixed it, or was it b) because it simply didn't (and still doesn't) have features you wanted? When the answer is a), that shows a product was rushed and not ready i.e. the Surface RT from the sounds of this review.
    - kyberias 14y ago
      I don't think the choices you offer me are mutually exclusive. A product can also feel rushed because it lacks important features. The first iPad seemed very polished: I could scroll the screen and it was super smooth. It's just that I wanted to do much more than scroll the screen super smoothly. I still have an iPad but I use a Chromebook much more. Makes so much more sense even though it has a very plastic and may seem "rushed" to some, it works for me.
      - grecy 14y ago
        > A product can also feel rushed because it lacks important features. I agree, when those features are (were) available and cost effective at the time of release, AND they are in fact added at a later date, which somewhat proves they probably should have been added in the first place. i.e. Complaining the first iPad was "rushed" because it didn't include 4G/LTE is nonsense. By that measure, I honestly can't think of an Apple product in the last 5 years that was "rushed", where-as it seems the Surface RT was/is.

SwearWord 14y ago

This seems like a pretty fair analysis. The positive is these all seem to be software issues that can easily be fixed in updates. I was just worried about bad hardware that can't be fixed. As a sidenote, maybe this is just an RT vs 8 thing but the Mail app did take me through a setup wizard when I first ran it.

dhawalhs 14y ago

I am extremely happy with the surface RT and more specifically IE10. Finally a desktop class browser on a tablet.

grecy 14y ago
Is safari on the iPad not desktop class?
- richbradshaw 14y ago
  When the iPad 1 shipped, I wished that more people had a desktop browser of it's calibre!
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- rsynnott 14y ago
  I'm a little confused by this, yes. If anything, mobile Safari and Chrome for Android are more desktop-like than IE10 on WinRT; they have tab bars, and so forth.

dangrossman 14y ago

I'm excited about the prospect of a Windows 8 tablet. I'm willing to spend as much as it costs to get one. Unfortunately, nobody wants my money. Yesterday was the big retail launch. I was on a mission to check out what my local stores had and, if they had anything that could do the job for me, buy it. I've always wanted a tablet, but only if it could be as useful as a laptop when paired with a keyboard. The new Windows 8 tablets are supposed to be just that. Best Buy had one (1) Windows 8 tablet. It was a Asus Vivo Tab running Windows RT... supposedly. I don't want an RT tab, and this store didn't even have a working floor model of the one tablet they were selling. The one they had was stuck on a "failed to automatically repair Windows" screen. It was also glued to the display stand so I couldn't pick it up and get a feel for the hardware. OfficeMax had zero (0) Windows 8 tablets. Heck, they had no Windows 8 touch screen laptops either. Or price tags. Or product specs. Or anything I could play with, really. There was one employee there setting up a display model of some laptop while complaining to another about how they were supposed to have tags for the computers but had none. Their electronics section was a joke. Staples had one (1) Windows 8 tablet. It was a Samsung ATIV running Windows 8. Success! I actually spent some time playing with this one. Again, I couldn't really get a feel for the hardware, or specifically the weight, given it's got a pound of security alarms and tethers bolted onto the back chaining it to the display area. Beyond that, the specs just weren't up to snuff -- with 2GB RAM and 64GB storage, I'd just barely be able to run enough software to occasionally use it as a portable development machine. With nothing installed on it, there was only 14GB of free space -- the OS and preinstalled apps were using 50GB of the 64GB out of the box. So all those trips were a waste of time. There's no Microsoft Store anywhere within 4 hours of me, so those 3 were the full range of retail options here. I'm basically looking for a Surface Pro (Intel Core processor, 4GB RAM, 128GB storage). It's amazing that despite knowing Microsoft would be building this, nobody else built something comparable, and stores aren't carrying even the few tablets/hybrids they did build.

colmvp 14y ago
Is it possible just to order it online?
- dangrossman 14y ago

jiggy2011 14y ago

He seems to be using the Surface RT in desktop mode in that video. I thought this was not supposed to be possible, is that untrue?

kenjackson 14y ago
There's a full desktop on Surface RT. I was rather surprised that it was a nearly full feature desktop. You can run full batch scripts, copy files, etc... You can't install applications on it though.
danieldk 14y ago
It currently exists for Office, because it isn't fully ported to Metro yet.
- richbradshaw 14y ago
  To be fair, it's not as if the Office team had a heads up that a table would be sold with marketing specifically explaining that it runs Office, whilst simultaneously being sold on the new Modern UI. Oh, wait, my mistake.
  - ConstantineXVI 14y ago
    The Office team is notorious for getting their way inside MS, from what I understand. Which could very well include "we won't be touching WinRT with a 40 foot pole". More practically speaking, "portable" is a word that I highly doubt describes the Office codebase. If there's a team working on a Metro version, I do not envy them at all.
sounds 14y ago
The videos clearly show him using the Windows 8 UI to launch Office, open a document, then later to launch Mail.
dangrossman 14y ago
Windows 8 and Windows RT are the same OS. Both have the desktop, with all the standard desktop features. Taskbar, system tray, Explorer, control panels, etc. The only difference between the two is that Windows RT can only install apps from the Windows Store, which are all Metro apps.

Anechoic 14y ago

"The diagonally-oriented camera is strange. In the one orientation it’s optimized for, it’s slightly annoying. In any other orientation, it’s almost intolerable. " "The built-in front-facing camera for Skype is angled so that it’ll work great when the kickstand is open, but again, only for Danny DeVito, or maybe for people who want to show off their chests in Skype." ------ "The Touch Cover is one of the Surface’s biggest innovations. I thought I would hate it, but I didn’t. It’s not like typing on a completely flat surface: each “key” is raised slightly, so while there isn’t any mechanical feedback, it does feel a bit like a keyboard." "The Type Cover (the one with real keys) just works. I’ve got big hands that often struggle on undersized keyboards, but I can type very quickly on the Type Cover." ------ "He showed me Office, which was almost unusable: it was extremely sluggish, and touch targets were tiny and difficult to hit." "So quickly, in fact, that I can outrun Microsoft Word on the Surface. I get the feeling that the Surface RT’s CPU or Word code just can’t keep up with my typing. Here’s an example video:" ------- "The standard gestures don’t help, requiring many in-from-the-edge swipes that not only aren’t discoverable" "After waiting over a minute for the machine to boot and launch the mail app, I got a blank gradient screen. User interface 101: if the app needs to be set up on the first launch, offer to do that, please. Folks from Twitter suggested that I swipe out from the right side and click Accounts" -- So, can we conclude that these observations might be real (V. 1) problems without resorting to ad-homs regarding the author?

BrentOzar 14y ago
Hi. Brent here, the post author. Thanks for making the point. I had hoped that by recording videos of the problems, I wouldn't get attacked as just making off the cuff observations. Readers can see the problems for themselves. Still getting attacked by the fanbois, though, and that's a little disappointing.
- UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
  I don't think anything you do can reach that audience. The only thing that MIGHT alter their perception is trying it themselves and even then it takes a lot. But outside of that niche group I think your videos very well demonstrate the issues in a fairly indefensible way. The save issue in particular is the worst as you never treat people's files/work with that much disregard.

brudgers 14y ago

I bought one of those Microsoft touch mice. I was getting ready to install the Windows 8 Consumer Preview, and after watching the video, it looked like a great option...and simultaneously, my Logitech Mouse had a dying mosfet switch so I was in the market for a new mouse anyway. [Really, I wasn't just rationalizing buying sexy technology]. It wasn't the first time I've bough I Microsoft mouse. I bought one back about a decade or so ago when another Logitech mouse died. It suffered the same fate as the Microsoft touch mouse. It was returned to the store and exchanged for another Logitech - for exactly the same reason. Neither was acceptable for my workflow. Unsurprisingly, I spend a meaningful amount of time using CAD/BIM software. The touch mouse zoomed in when I adjusted my grip ("drawing" with a mouse largely involves holding it). There was no way to program the gestures. Likewise, the earlier Microsoft mouse had lots of buttons, but no way to program the middle button as a middle button - as an early "many button" mouse, the middle button had some dedicated function and I had about a decade of muscle memory and projects to push out the door. The author is experiencing the same thing. The new device isn't tailored to his workflow. It probably isn't reasonable to expect it to be. It's competitors aren't; most people don't have a similar workflow; and it's still version one of the software (Word for RT). This doesn't excuse the devices performance. But it also puts the author's experience in perspective. Right now, he's somewhat of an edge use case.

garrettlarson 14y ago
He encountered problems typing at a reasonable speed, saving a Word document, videoconferencing, and opening the mail client. They sound like issues that can be corrected with a software update, but I don't think they're specific to his workflow.
- brudgers 14y ago
  Compare these activities to the way in which the Surface's competition handles them...e.g typing, creating documents, video conferencing, and configuring email on an iPad. The author's expectations were that the Surface would be as productive as a Windows laptop. Nobody expects an iPad to be as productive as a MacBook.

powertower 14y ago

Surface with Windows RT is supposed to be a stripped down version of Windows, that runs 99% in Metro-mode, not Desktop-mode. Right now there are two exceptions to this: Office (preview version - buggy) and a Desktop-mode version of IE. Everything else is 100% Metro. And I don't think you can even install anything yourself on it except via it's App Store. Hence it's Desktop-mode is not really there for the benefit of the consumer. And the Office offering will need to be further ported and refined for RT before everything is worked out. I'm not even sure why they put Office on it. It's a device made mostly for browsing the internet and running some apps while holding it in your hands. Which is what the bigger market is for. While this was a good and honest review, I think his use-case is off on this one and he will be better suited waiting for Surface with Windows 8 Pro. I would also be curious to know what his height is, so I'd know what "for short people" means... The pics I've been able to find of the author, he's at least 6'2", maybe even 6'5". If you are as toll as the author, you could probably either move the device away a bit, zoom out the image, or perhaps put something underneath it's stand to angle it properly.

BrentOzar 14y ago
Brent the author here. I'm 6'3". I can move the Surface RT away from me to the point where I'm fully in the camera, but then I can't reach the keyboard. That doesn't quite work.
- powertower 14y ago
  Do you think it's possible to mod the plastic peace that is the back-stand by shortning it? Is it removable or replacable itself? Could be a good kickstarter idea... "Surface RT stand for tall people."
  - konstruktor 14y ago
    According to the initial surface presentation, the piece isn't plastic but metal.
  - BrentOzar 14y ago
    It's made out of a very solid-feeling metal (VaporMG), and it feels like it'd be quite difficult to shorten. I do really like the idea of replacing it with a shorter piece though.

ConstantineXVI 14y ago

I've had mine since 10AM yesterday; and I'm actually fairly pleased, at least for effectively being a new platform. Thoughts, in no particular order: - Love the build. Very solid overall. - 16:9 means it's one long tablet. Oddly, it's actually fairly usable in portrait; can't say the same for my old 16:10 Transformer (maybe just better balanced?) - The touch cover is, like most say, surprisingly usable. Desperately needs a way to no-op Caps Lock though. - Screen res lower than iPad, but still usable. Difference not near as noticeable as between iPad 2/3, but too many factors in play to make an objective call there. - Metro takes getting used to, but I like it (even with KB/trackpad). - It's the first time I've seen proper desktop Gmail and Google Docs usable in a tablet browser. - Performance is generally decent. Not blazing, but decent. - Windows RT appears to still contain far more of Windows than we've been led to believe. Even `csc` is installed, but missing a few dlls. - No SSH client for Metro yet. That's one of the risks you take on a new platform (esp. a non-Unix one), but still aggravates me. - Snapping is very, very handy; nice solution to bring proper multitasking to a tablet UI. - When touch-scrolling over on desktop apps (what few remain), the entire window "bounces" at the head/tail of the content. Odd decision. - No central notification bin (like Android's shade or iOS's Notification Center). Have to rely on scanning Live Tiles if you miss anything. - The back camera seems to exist only to make the iPad 2's back camera feel better about itself. Has to be the blockiest camera I've ever seen. - Handwriting recognition is pretty solid. Wacom junkies will be very pleased when so-equipped tablets ship. (Capacitive styli still suck) - None of the Twitter apps have really thrilled me. Given the circumstances, I'm not that surprised. - OS-level share support is a smart move; similar to Android's impl but more thorough (sharing pops up a share pane from your selected app in the sidebar, instead of bouncing you out of your current app entirely). - Printing is mildly unintuitive; you have to open the "Devices" charm and pick your printer. No one is going to guess that's how to print. - On the bright side, our network printer/scanner was detected and installed immediately, with zero user intervention. Very, very far cry from the WinXP days. - There's no way to see your precise battery life outside of the desktop (in the classic sys-tray). - Presumably due to the use of pressure sensors vs. capacitive, the Touch Cover isn't quite as accurate without a solid surface underneath. - If you're not using the keyboard (watching movies, etc.), flip the cover backwards with the kickstand out and it's nearly as stable as a laptop. - The intro tells you about the basic edge swipes (right for charms, left for app switcher, top/bottom for menu); not mentioned is swiping straight from top-center to bottom kills the current app. - Screenshot is Win+VolDown. - Wordament can be played while snapped. This is dangerous. - IE lets you swipe on the outer edge of the page for back/forward, which would be smart if this didn't occasionally clash with the app switcher. Questions? (PS: I typed this entire post on the Touch Cover.)

dzhiurgis 14y ago

qwerty keyboards were designed to slow down the typists thus preventing typewriter jamming. Perhaps MS should redesign it again to make it even slower, so the Surface would be able to keep up?

UnoriginalGuy 14y ago
QWERTY wasn't designed to slow down typists it was designed to speed up typist by preventing jams. http://home.earthlink.net/~dcrehr/whyqwert.html http://home.earthlink.net/~dcrehr/whyqwert.html
grecy 14y ago
> qwerty keyboards were designed to slow down the typists What were "the typists" typing on before qwerty?

magsafe 14y ago

An old post from an ex-Microsoftie, which might explain some of this Windows RT mess: http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2011/03/24/first-windows-phone-update-only-going-out-to-unlocked-phones/#comment-7276 http://windowsphonesecrets.com/2011/03/24/first-windows-phon...

mandelbrot 14y ago

In the email video he could be seen typing his password. Even though you cannot see the actual keys the reflection gives some idea about what is being pressed. Do you think you could guess his password from that?

BrentOzar 14y ago
Brent the author here. I use Google's app-specific passwords and I've already disabled my Surface RT passwords when I boxed it back up this morning. I salute you though!

option_greek 14y ago

This is off topic but, compare this review to the one written by Marco Arment and you will know the difference between constructive criticism and fanboy-ism.

shuw 14y ago
the majority of Marco's post was about the experience of the Microsoft Store
X-Istence 14y ago
Marco Arment was more showcasing the differences between the Apple store and the Microsoft store. At the Apple store I can be left alone by simply walking up to a display and playing with a device. Maybe a sales person will come up to me and ask me if they can help me, let them know that I am just checking things out and they leave. At the Microsoft store you can't get a single moment of privacy with a device to play with it. The sales person will continue to talk, they will take over from whatever you are trying to do/play with, they want to discuss specs, they want to showcase very specific pieces of technology, they never leave you alone, even if you end up straight up asking. Granted, Marco's post was slanted in that he is an developer for the Apple eco-system, but that doesn't mean that his post didn't contain the truth. I myself have experienced exactly that at the Microsoft stores. They try to hard to copy the Apple stores, but fall hard.
- shoota 14y ago
  I was just at a Microsoft store this morning and I did not find the above experience to be true at all. In fact when I stopped by the Apple store the staff was much more intrusive.
BrentOzar 14y ago
Brent the author here. Thanks, I really appreciate that comment - especially in light of all the flack I've gotten for the review. I'd read Marco's post, and I was disappointed in that too. He has valid points, but it's tough to hear them through the rage.

jimbobimbo 14y ago

The lag in Word is more likely caused by an option that makes Office use accelerated graphics. I don't know why this option even exists - I've yet to see someone liking how typing in Office applications works with it being on...

mortenjorck 14y ago
Shouldn't accelerated graphics result in screen redraws that are... faster?
- jimbobimbo 14y ago
  That's the biggest puzzle this option presents.
- Too 14y ago
  Usually accelerated graphics are pretty bad at adding new stuff, due to the overhead of moving things from cpu to gpu. Instead they are crazy fast at drawing the same stuff over and over again with slight modifications by simply rotating and moving the already loaded objects.

seanica 14y ago

I hope he's changed his password. In one of the vids it's fairly easy to workout what he was typing to login.

mladenkovacevic 14y ago

Bugginess and software weirdness aside, the thing that struck me as most awkward is the keyboard/touch interface paradigm. It required him floating his entire arm to reach out and touch specific dialogues. This seems like a huge sacrifice of touch precision and a strain on your arm. I predict that most people get a Bluetooth mouse for it and use it in either laptop mode or tablet mode - not a combination of both.

EwanG 14y ago
On a Latitude 10 running Win 8 I find that a travel 3-port USB hub and travel sized mouse and keyboard is rather efficient. Of course I found that for a lot of things on my Android tablet a mouse made a world of difference as well. The reality is that as we start pushing these things to be our main screen rather than an accessory screen, the interface size being 10 inches or less makes working with detail items difficult. Whether it's Win 8 or Android, if you have to select from a multi-item list a mouse is still easier to use than touch.
BrentOzar 14y ago
I've heard that complaint (gorilla arm) as a big detractor for touch-based user interfaces, but it didn't bother me much when I was using it. The biggest change was that I had to adapt - I'm so used to using the touchpad, but the touchpad on the Surface RT keyboards is just too small. It's easier to point and touch the screen, and it wasn't too uncomfortable. I'm already used to using tablets, though, so I might not be the best person to answer that. My bigger concern was the very tiny touch points on the dialogs, especially in Office. I repeatedly touched the wrong spots, wrong options, opened the wrong folders in Explorer, etc.

tjdetwiler 14y ago

I think it's great to see MS trying something new and exploring interfaces that aren't just a rip-off or evolution of Apple designs.

prayaagk 14y ago

I don't think his post and reason are highly analytic. Rather its result of working so hard to find out even smallest issue with Microsoft's new product No product are perfect in that regard. Remember first iPhone ? first Android ? first iPad ? Camera viewpoint doesn't cover your face when you put tablet on kickstand mode? put it little away. what's wrong. Other leading tablets in market doesn't even have one. Its been stated design wonder along with cover with keyboard. Should appreciate instead. All issues noted in this article are exaggeration except the live sign-in bug while saving office doc.

BrentOzar 14y ago
Brent the author here. "Even the smallest issue" - errr, if the big selling point of the tablet is the keyboard, and Word can't keep up with me typing, that's not a small issue for me. I can understand how it would be a small issue for most folks, because most folks don't use tablets for Office. I wanted this tablet because it was specifically marketed as the work-friendly tablet. If I move the tablet far enough away that I'm in the picture, then I can't touch the keyboard. That's a problem.
- prayaagk 14y ago
  "Can you honestly tell us you watched the videos?" - Yes I did. But my main point is, the post, isn't kinda review. Kickstand issue and mail app issues , isn't that big to be dither about. Approach to response should be more sort of balanced rather than fault-finding and whining. " it was specifically marketed as the work-friendly tablet." - But that doesn't mean that we should expect powerhouse performance and after all its RT. Wait for pro if you want that performance. At least it is doing something better than other competition? No one can deny that its better in terms of "work-ready" than iPad or Android tab. Instead of whining about small issues why can't be appreciate what they are trying to build ? "They are not competing against first generation offering. This is not some child thats needs love and support. This is a commercial product from a for-profit company at a high price." - Its something like complaining why new hybrid car in market not running x miles at xx speed , when a company brings new hybrid car in market at the time every car maker are busy making gas cars. There are lots of thing promising about Surface. USB port, Smart Glass, Solid hardware, Office etc. Following is the post I would call more natural balanced response. http://mattblogsit.com/2012/10/27/is-the-microsoft-surface-for-me/ http://mattblogsit.com/2012/10/27/is-the-microsoft-surface-f... There are flaws out there. But which product in world don't have them. Are they something, which you can claim that, you are returning your product for ?

alpb 14y ago

Are all the HN upvoters are retarded? This is not Surface RT. RT does not have a classic Windows Desktop environment. It only has metro. This is a Surface Pro, which has not been released yet. Slowness is totally understandable because that guy installed an OS X on an iPad, which is the same thing as using Win8 full desktop environment on Surface RT hardware.

rahoulb 14y ago
You are wrong. windows RT includes the desktop environment but you can't install any new apps to it - all you have is Office and Explorer. http://www.anandtech.com/show/6392/the-windows-rt-review/8 http://www.anandtech.com/show/6392/the-windows-rt-review/8 http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/23/3537710/windows-8-review http://www.theverge.com/2012/10/23/3537710/windows-8-review
macspoofing 14y ago
>Are all the HN upvoters are retarded? This is not Surface RT. RT does not have a classic Windows Desktop environment. It only has metro. Either they are all 'retarded' and you are the one in the right, or vice-versa. Which do you think is more likely?
eburley 14y ago
I have it in front of me and confirm that the RT does have a desktop environment with office, and if you hit window+r some other programs, like cmd, and powershell.
hkuo 14y ago
I imagine Microsoft could have a very lenient policy with its employees speaking on behalf of the company's interests, but its very dangerous territory if you don't approach it with respect and sensitivity. Personally I think it's simply best to not speak publicly on behalf of the company you work for unless its your job to do so.

joejohnson 14y ago

I was excited when I heard Microsoft was making a tablet and entering this market. Apple doesn't face any strong competition in this market, and because they are so far ahead of their nearest rival (Samsung?) they don't really need to innovate for a cycle or two, and their designs could stagnate. But the Surface will not be true competition to Apple. This product fails in too many ways, and I predict that the iPad will remain dominant for at least a few years to come.

gojomo 14y ago

The advice to "wait for the one due in a few months that needs a fan" makes me wonder if this author's sweet spot for tablets is anywhere near mine. I hate fans. (And does such advice mean the author is literally a fan-boy? A fan-fan-boy?)

BrentOzar 14y ago
Brent the author here. When I say wait for the one with a fan, I'm just giving guidance to people who really want the Windows experience. I hate fans too.
- gojomo 14y ago
  Sure, I understand you weren't touting the fan itself as a benefit and I appreciated your overall writeup. I just had to share my double-take at seeing the ideas "will have a fan" and "worth waiting for" so close together.

werdnanoslen 14y ago

Still waiting on decent linux-capable tablets...

amcintyre 14y ago
Surely by now somebody's managed to get Linux on a Surface RT? It sounds from the review like the hardware is pretty good, just the software that's lacking.
mtgx 14y ago
Already here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItkWCmkxBv0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItkWCmkxBv0 However, I would wait at least for Cortex A15 chips to arrive, especially if you're going to want to use Unity, which isn't exactly a race horse on PC's either. I'm sure Canonical will port Ubuntu to the upcoming Nexus 10, too.

georgemcbay 14y ago

I posted about this before: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4660871 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4660871 and I still think it is true... IMO Microsoft made a mistake by leading out with the RT. Leading with the Pro and then offering the RT as a feature-reduced lower cost version would have cut down on the confusion as to what RT really is and lessened the initial impression that the Windows 8 experience is kind of underwhelming.

pycassa 14y ago
they want to fill the microsoft store.. so they wanted to get the rt version first.. and frankly no one will pay attention if any of the OEMs release an RT tablet/laptop.. simply, they wanted a successful RT tablet.. they decided to do it themselves..

tlogan 14y ago

I played with Microsoft Surface and my problem with it is that IT IS A LAPTOP. The interface is pretty much made for laptop (you need to have keyboard), and size is a little too big for tablet. It is not something I might be using while watching TV. It is weird combo of laptop and tablet.

Maakuth 14y ago

I hope someone works around the UEFI secure boot soon, I would be very interested in having this as a Linux tablet.

paul9290 14y ago

I was thinking of making this my next PC purchase, but after watching a video in this blog post I see i would be forced to use the touchscreen as there is not a built in trackpad on that cover/keyboard thing. Overall the design looked cool, as I am interested in tablet with an attached keyboard with a trackpad. Though I want a tablet/PC type of device that allows me to use it as a tablet or a PC laptop. I guess the Surface is not what I imagined.

ConstantineXVI 14y ago
Except it does have a trackpad. It's right there below the spacebar. It's tiny, but it's there and it works.
edandersen 14y ago
It has a trackpad and also supports USB mice, even a range of weird USB wireless mouse dongles.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

kyberias 14y ago

It's as if the author really hurried to return the device so that he can write the blog article. Insane.

BrentOzar 14y ago
Brent the author here. I'm heading out on a two week road trip to speak at a few conferences. I hurried to get the device usable before I fly out to Vegas on Sunday for DevConnections, and I started putting it through its paces right away. I wanted to feel confident that I'd be able to rely on it as a backup presentation device and leave my iPad at home. After the 2-week road trip, I'm home for a few days, then out of the country for vacation. I wouldn't be able to return the Surface easily over the next month, so that's why I made the decision to bail. Plus, I gotta be honest - I don't think there's going to be a resale value for these, so I didn't want to take a $200-$300 bath by selling it on eBay in a couple of months.
- kyberias 14y ago
  A lot of reasons but none of those are related to the device itself. I think it's fairly obvious that you could have waited a while and the software (!) problems you experienced would be fixed with an update. I think you just originally wanted to write a negative blog post about "returning the device". Weird.
  - greedo 14y ago
    So in other words, the Surface wasn't ready...

Groxx 14y ago

And this is one of the reasons I despise modal dialogs of all kinds: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Wwhv8U614Vo&t=2m10s http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W... When they go bad, they're catastrophically bad.

edandersen 14y ago

Biggest issue so far for me with Surface's WinRT - no alternative browsers, so no Adblock. I can't believe this is what the desktop web really looks like.

stcredzero 14y ago

From the comments: > I admit, I fully expected a tablet version of my laptop. I wanted it to do everything my laptop could do, but with the added bonus of the touch screen, so I can play my games that make my phone freeze up while I’m sitting at my kids dance or karate classes. If you're technically savvy enough to understand and follow focus of GUI elements, and don't mind a stylus, then there are a number of existing tablets that will fit this bill. In fact, they've been around since ~2000.

sliverstorm 14y ago
Yes, laptop tablets have a touch screen, but they are really just not the same thing. Have you used one much? Unless they've made huge progress in the last few years, a laptop tablet is like a laptop, upon whose screen you can WRITE with a stylus. They are not touch devices like we think of today.
- stcredzero 14y ago
  Have you used an early 2000's stylus tablet like a tc1100? I'm talking about those, not touch screen laptops. http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tr/gallery/hptr1105/Image00021_small.jpg http://i.i.com.com/cnwk.1d/i/tr/gallery/hptr1105/Image00021_... > a laptop tablet is like a laptop, upon whose screen you can WRITE with a stylus. They are not touch devices like we think of today. Please re-read. I am saying exactly this. The only way they are alike is they are somewhat in the same class of portability. The tc1100 is a beast at 3 pounds, but you can actually watch YouTube and browse the web in bed with one. I know, because I've done it. Doesn't work for the general public because ordinary people can't keep track of GUI item focus.

trotsky 14y ago

tl;dr - microsoft word on a brand new cpu architecture, ui style and input system is a bit laggy.

ronaldj 14y ago
Also, you can get locked in the save dialog and can't recover your document in Word. This seems more serious than the lag.

madoublet 14y ago

Brent, thanks for this. It is odd because Windows 8 Pro is really smooth. Lets hope someone at Microsoft gets a hold of this and they release an update sooner-then-later.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

anonymfus 14y ago

Update of Office for final version was available at the day of launch. Why you did not install it?

lnanek2 14y ago

So...this is a good opportunity to write a word processing app for the Windows 8 store. Score! It's well known what people like with those...

Metrop0218 14y ago

Welcome to the life of an early adopter. It is a bit buggier than we'd like, but you know we'll receive updates before the year is up that will address a lot of the problems. I do wish that it could've been shipped with higher performance, but Windows on ARM was a big endeavor. Achieving the amount of polish that we see on Intel's chips is going to take a bit of time.

BindersFOW 14y ago

Hi everyone. The author brings up great points and its really important for MSFT to address the kickstand's adjustability or even adjust the camera angle automatically. Regarding the other points of the author, i think he should install the updates after which Office RT becomes a productivity beast. Also, there is one aspect of the surface and windows 8 in general nobody has touched in this whole thread which is smartGlass. Coupled with Xbox, this device becomes a wonderful companion to the vastly improved xbox-kinect bundle and so far, i really don't have any complaints about it except the fact that i can't code on it although someone mentioned csc works on it sans some dlls.

pedro-alejandro 14y ago

People are using the surface primarily without a mouse, the way a tablet is supposed to be used. Yet there's still so many tiny touch targets all over the place when classic Windows stuff pops up. I cringe when I see video reviews of people trying to laser-tap these and miss a few times until they get it.

magic5227 14y ago

What genius decided RT was a good name? Honestly.

stevenwei 14y ago

To me, the user experience issues are the biggest failures of all: - A mail app that opens to a completely blank screen with no cues on how to continue. - An infinite login dialog that doesn't allow you to cancel and back out. Wanting software that offers a pleasant and intuitive user experience doesn't mean that you want software that's dumbed down for grandma, and I'm sad that people are portraying it that way. I've read my share of man pages and hand written my Xorg.confs many times in previous lives, I'm no stranger to complex and arcane software setup procedures. But in 2012, in the world of smartphones and tablets, this is stuff that should just work. The answer to "the mail app is completely blank on launch" shouldn't be "sorry, you failed to read the manual". Ever. And while I greatly respect Microsoft's attempt at entering this market, someone on their team, at some point, had to look at these issues[1] and say, "okay, this software is ready to ship anyway". That does not bode well. [1] The alternative, I suppose, is that no one noticed. Which is even worse.

goodereader 14y ago

We did a review of the surface tablet here - http://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/review-of-the-microsoft-surface-rt-windows-8-tablet/ http://goodereader.com/blog/tablet-slates/review-of-the-micr... also vs the ipad 3 here - http://goodereader.com/blog/good-e-reader-videos/microsoft-surface-vs-apple-ipad-3/ http://goodereader.com/blog/good-e-reader-videos/microsoft-s... the pro might be a better investment, but most of the apps crash/buggy, not really worth being an early adopter with this product.

cboss 14y ago

Quote: "The problem with Windows "apps" is that they are made inefficient and un-optimized by default" As a WIN32 developer for the last ten years I would have to agree that a good bit of software today for Windows lacks performance. Why ? IMO a lot has to do with mindset of not only developers, but also those who produce the programming languages developers use. I would venture to say that most programmers would admit that the computer they develop on is likely a more advanced computer than most mass market PC's. They like i5 or i7 CPU's, 8,16 or more gigs of memory, SSD's, etc. The mass market PC though, to be affordable comes far less equipped. This is why when I write software, my development PC is closer to a more mass market PC. I need to feel the problems with performance the moment I compile and run. Now if you write apps which run fast on a slow PC, imagine how they will run on the higher end devices.

hp79 14y ago

I love my surface, and I have no slowdown in Word and OneNote after installing the 600MB or so update. I have a touch keyboard. What I'm disappointed about is that the bottom edge of the glass is not completely flat. This shows poor build quality, and I expected at least Apple quality from this device. I also tried a second one, and it also has non flat glass on the bottom edge. All the demo units had this problem too. Try reflecting a straight line on that part of the screen and you will know what I mean. It does bug me a bit because I expect a high standard for a $600 ARM tablet.