10 ms·

An Alternate Universe (Microsoft Surface)

242 points by tnorthcutt 14y ago

mythz 14y ago
This looks just like the Apple Store, but without the customers :)
brackin 14y ago
It's true that the Surface is coming in at a 10" form-factor when the iPad holds 70% of the market and the real battle is happening on the 7", slightly lower end market.
- evoxed 14y ago
  I had a bit of a tinfoil hat epiphany just yesterday about this... consider: -Until now, Apple has been adamant about not releasing a smaller iPad. -Apple has a ridiculously efficient supply chain which can probably adapt very well, considering the next point... -Tim Cook just went on record saying that Apple wasn't concerned about product cannibalization. -The Surface tablet is just about to stick it's foot in the door, well after Apple has established itself at the top. Aside from the obvious (consumer demand), does anyone else think this might just be one of the most comfortable bets they can make? Put out 7" tablets while they're hot, let people forget about the Surface, by the time Surface 2 goes 7" they can push out a much newer full iPad line...
  - r00fus 14y ago
    I honestly think Tim doesn't really see Microsoft as a threat just yet. The iPad mini is a response to low-price disruption from Amazon and Google. I think Amazon's "$50/year data plan" gives more heartburn to Apple strategists than anything Microsoft has put on the table or even hinted at.
paperwork 14y ago
Quite a nice writeup. It saddens me to see Microsoft disappointing, time after time. There must be great material for anthropologists to figure out how such an incredibly smart and talented group of people, with almost unlimited amount of money, can continue to be second-rate. In fact, comparing the cultures around Linux, MS and Apple is bound to reveal some greater truths about human/societal behavior which could be applied to improving the lot of countries and cultures which have stagnated.
- sam1799 14y ago
  How is the Surface disappointing? Explain please. Surface has by far the better hardware, and Windows 8 has a FAR better UI and UX than iOS. How is the Surface worse than the iPad? It's way ahead.
  - MBCook 14y ago
    Most people seem to love the surface hardware, it's Windows RT I've seen most complaints about. Most people also seem to love the touch cover, and had a better experience than Marco. I read this entire piece as a critique of the MS store. The Surface just happened to be what he tried to see/mess with; an activity that was constantly interrupted by the sales staff. I went into my local MS store a few weeks ago (pre-surface). While I didn't encounter pushy salesmen, the rest of the experience was similar. The layout and design was a clear copy of Apple. The uniforms and the way they carried their ID on a lanyard was a clear copy. There was an "XBox Experience" section in the back no one was using. The Windows phones were covered in fingerprints, making it hard to see how nice the screens really were. They're trying, but it was clear to me they needed some time and experience to round some rough edges.
  - randomchars 14y ago
    Better hardware? How is the surface's harware better? Not even if we put aside the shitty screen.
RyJones 14y ago
His impression pretty much matches mine, except I'm more enthused by the keyboard covers. I find OSKs intolerable; I agree with his assessment that Office is useless for creation - I will argue that having a full-fidelity viewer is very nice for attachment handling.
hizanberg 14y ago
Seriously? blue uniforms, white name tags, flat display tables, guru bars... It's like they purposely tried to copy every distinguishable Apple retail formula except they're pushing PCs. Does noone have any creativity left anymore?
- firefoxman1 14y ago
  It's Microsoft. Microsoft has never been about innovation or creativity. I'm not one to bash them, it's just important to look back at their history. Their last innovation was the Start menu.
- bbissoon 14y ago
  It's not about creativity when you're running a store. It's about finding a method that works and tweaking it to fit your product. The creativity is in the product and advertising.
  - firefoxman1 14y ago
    Unless you want your restaurant to be known as the "best" in town. That requires more than just tweaking.
    - bbissoon 14y ago
      ... food hasn't really changed much in our generation. Only tweaked by ways of cooking it. I promise you - whatever you ate in the last week has only been tweaked. The creativity came with the people who created the dish long ago.
  - hizanberg 14y ago
    So every other tech retail company that doesn't copy Apple is foolish? If that's the case we're headed towards a bland, uninspiring world.
    - bbissoon 14y ago
      The loyalty of Apple's consumers speaks volume. It's only natural for tech companies to follow their lead. It's about great customers service and that's not limited to Apple.
andrewfelix 14y ago
How surprising, Marco panning Microsoft products. That store experience does sound awful though. There's nothing more off putting than over eager sales staff interrupting your curiosity.
- niels_olson 14y ago
  I have been to MSFT stores in San Diego and Seattle. They were like that before Surface. I felt dirty, and a little sad for everyone in the store.
  - jser 14y ago
    Visiting their store feels like you've stepped into a Halloween horror movie. The staff must be forced to take lithium at the start of each shift. At the Microsoft store in Chicago, it's not only empty and in the least 'cool' part of the city (distant suburbs), but the constant demos felt like I was a victim in a Saw movie. I had to enthusiastically play a Kinect game... or else.
- robryan 14y ago
  To be fair, in terms of Microsoft pieces from the big Apple bloggers, this comes off more fair than the stuff Gruber and MG write.
- underwater 14y ago
  The Apple store do the forced cheering by sales staff. I find that really tacky.
  - snambi 14y ago
    Apple stores so crowded, its hard to get the attention of the sales guys. They are super busy, even on a monday morning. In santa clara, the microsoft store is right in front of apple store. Once I went to apple store on a monday morning, to fix my wife's phone. The apple store was packed at 10.30 AM, I had to wait 2 hours to get it fixed. So, to kill time I went into the microsoft store, which was literally empty. There were more staff than customers. I don't know why microsoft is opening stores.
petercooper 14y ago
Oh my.. this cringeworthy exchange reminds me of when Larry David tried selling cars :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neqO5y3Xaq8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neqO5y3Xaq8
ericfrenkiel 14y ago
this is such a biased article with strawman arguments ("can you replace the sound card on the surface?") and silly comparisons(the author actually writes he could buy 2 ipad minis for 1 surface). the criticisms about the store experience and salesmen notwithstanding, this is apple fanboism at its best. It's far better to keep an open mind and experience new ways of interaction than to deride/scoff at alternative UI and UX. I switch between Android, Windows, and Mac OSX; it's far more interesting to enjoy more platforms than forgo trying new experiences.
- andrewljohnson 14y ago
  Have you tried a Microsoft Surface? I think he can scoff at the UI since he tried it.
  - ericfrenkiel 14y ago
    Yes, I'm typing on one right now =) It certainly has some flaws as a first generation product, but on the whole it's a breath of fresh air in the tablet space.
    - snambi 14y ago
      did you buy it?
      - randartie 14y ago
        or did he receive it today as a Microsoft employee?
        ericfrenkiel 14y ago
        No lol, i work at MemSQL
        deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
      - 14y ago
dmix 14y ago
> it wasn’t clear whether there just wasn’t a hidden context menu at that moment or I just screwed up the swipe This was the hardest thing for me when I was trying out Windows 8. Was never sure the menu didn't exist or my mouse wasn't in the corner properly.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
kordless 14y ago
After reading maybe 1/4 of this I was left thinking if you can't say something positive, don't say anything at all.
- jser 14y ago
  Without criticism, nothing will improve.
  - Magenta 14y ago
    Depends on the criticism. Constructive criticism, sure. Blinkered, petty, negative criticism from someone who made up his mind years ago? Not so much.
wvenable 14y ago
> People who dislike Apple’s approach or whose requirements are incompatible with it will always exist in great numbers, and the Surface is for them. I disagree. Historically, Microsoft software products have been more customizable and more flexible than what comes from Apple. PC hardware as well. But what we're seeing now, with Windows 8, is a departure from that. Microsoft isn't just copying Apple's store -- they're copying the fundamental mind-set behind Apple's software. Instead of a general purpose computing machine, they're both trying to sell closed consumer electronics products. In my opinion, Microsoft took their biggest advantage and tossed it. People who dislike Apple's approach or whose requirements are incompatible aren't going to find much of an alternative. Microsoft seems to think they can compete with Apple on Apple's terms.
- mandeepj 14y ago
  Few weeks ago, there was a news about ballmer praising and hinting at adopting the Apple's approach of integrated hardware and software. Surface is the move in that direction. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/us-microsoft-ceo-idUSBRE8981GF20121010 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/us-microsoft-ceo-i...
- erickhill 14y ago
  And thus Android/Chrome may become the new "frankenstein customizable" option, which MS has historically been.
  - Camillo 14y ago
    Maybe Android, but I can't see how Chrome could be that. It's a browser that runs web applications. Every other OS has a browser and runs web applications.
- 6ren 14y ago
  True, but maybe the nature of the demand has changed, as computers have matured into consumer devices. However... if some new way of using computers comes along, it seems more likely to emerge in a more open system (like windows or android or linux) than in a closed one. Or maybe at the level of ARM SoC, with its own hardware.
taylorbuley 14y ago
I've got VMWare Fusion on a Macbook Air so I have the luxury of being able to pick my OS and application for most tasks (usually OS X, sometimes Ubuntu and rarely Windows). I took Windows 8 for a test drive today and I will be happily replacing the native OS X Calendar and Mail with the Windows 8 alternatives.
- jser 14y ago
  Curious -- why so? Reviews that I read seemed to indicate that the mail application was quite weak (e.g. can't even drag and drop mail into folders).
  - taylorbuley 14y ago
    That's a good point and I could see how it could be troublesome for some. For me, I like the simplified interface. The design is a driving factor for me, rather than features.
- josteink 14y ago
  Mail? Seriously? I'm using Windows 8 on my (non touchscreen) laptop, for the overall improvements on the platform and I'm very happy about it so far. And it means I have day to day experience using it. And so far, I think the Mail-app is one of the weakest apps to the point where I wondered if Microsoft is seriously releasing this as their RTM, finalized Mail-client for the masses. If I may ask: What part about it do you find so faverouble? Is there some hidden gem I have missed?
  - taylorbuley 14y ago
    Noted in a sibling comment, not being able to drag mail is a bummer. And on further exploration I definitely miss being able to search. But selecting it and moving it isn't too bad, and I can use mail.google.com when I need to -- overall I'm not concerned about a lack of features for this desktop client. My guess would be that they applied the Aol user principle to the mail app and figured you'd use Outlook if you need a more featureful application.
recoiledsnake 14y ago
>The Surface is partially for Microsoft’s world of denial: the world in which this store contains no elephants and Microsoft invented the silver store with the glass front and the glowing logo and blue shirts and white lanyards and these table layouts and the modern tablet and its magnetic power cable Huh what? It looks like Marco's the one living in an alternate universe. I seriously doubt anyone would believe that. The whole "if you don't adore the iPad you're in denial" thing says more about the writer than the Microsoft store salesman. What bugs me the most about the Apple bloggers like Gruber, Siegler and Marco is their hate towards anything non-Apple, especially Android and Microsoft. It's one thing to like something, but to hate on something else because of that is very narrow minded.
- msutherl 14y ago
  They hate it because it sucks. His whole article is about how much and why it sucks. Then he concludes that maybe it doesn't suck. Maybe it's just him. It reminds me of Winston Smith, wondering whether it's he that's insane after all.
  - jbigelow76 14y ago
    That's kind of a grandiose comparison don't you think? 1984 is a cautionary (prescient?) fable about a totalitarianistic dystopia and the other is a tedious rant about consumer electronics in a shopping mall.
    - Ygg2 14y ago
      There are some funny parables that can be drawn between 1984 and the way iOS walled garden functions. It's not the same ofc, but to the hacker ethos it behaves in much the same way. EDIT: Just to make sure, by hacker ethos I consider something in the lines of Stallman which is a staunch proponent of tinker everything.
      - randomchars 14y ago
        And the way Windows RT's walled garden works?
tankbot 14y ago
It's obvious that the writer is an Apple person but the piece doesn't feel too biased. This makes me a little sad, I was rooting for Microsoft this time.
- mandeepj 14y ago
  I am still rooting for Microsoft this time. I can see myself using surface as a reading device as well as popping up visual studio and writing code in C# :-)
- modarts 14y ago
  Doesnt't feel biased? Was I reading the same post?
  - berntb 14y ago
    Ok, enough is enough. I have read too much of this. The author made serious points (even the store uniforms(!) are copied, bad animation handling, office apps are slow, etc, etc). Why are the anti-Apple fan boys just complaining that the article is biased -- instead of showing that it is biased by answering the "biased" points?
    - corporalagumbo 14y ago
      Thanks, I am also tired of this conflation of valid criticism with "bias."
    - modarts 14y ago
      The entire tone of his post from the outset seemed like he really had an axe to grind. It was like reading an article Fox News would publish about an Obama rally.
      - berntb 14y ago
        I asked for arguments against the content of the article. You lack that? Edit: The criticism of the Surface is echoed here: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/10/microsoft-surface-rt-review-this-is-technological-heartbreak/ http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/10/microsoft-surface-rt-revie... (I'm not going to bother to read more about non-retina pads/laptops. My eyes are too old and spoiled.)
rjzzleep 14y ago
not a ms person here(not at ALL in fact). but ok i get it, was reading, then started skimming, then got to the conclusion tl;dr. apple store employees handing out stupid useless flyers in the middle of the street in gangs of 3 is better of course. microsoft is giving out muffin fragments? i'm surprised they gave out anything at all.
Magenta 14y ago
Marco Arment enters a Microsoft store beady-eyed, looking for things to nitpick, sneering at everything, seeing the negative side of everything. Whodathunkit. The article by this fully-grown adult is summed up as he bitches about how "he isn't told how to exit other stores." What a clown.
- thethe 14y ago
  Beady-eyed?
hdra 14y ago
I don't why would an adult would even bother to write something like this.
- pacomerh 14y ago
  This is totally true, this guy has crossed the line of constructive criticism. But its kind of obvious, his main (maybe only) income comes from apple, so he has to compare everything to his life provider.
khalidmbajwa 14y ago
Is it just me, or does the Article really does comes across as quite snarky in tone rather than an honest observation of what he saw ?
- randomchars 14y ago
  It's just you.
6ren 14y ago
I feel bad for Microsoft. When you are first with a new product with great benefits, everyone forgives your missteps, because it's the only one - the best there is. But when you copy, you are competing with something that has been through iterations of feedback and corrections and bugfix and improvement. You are held to that higher standard, even though you're just starting out! Also, in the past, Apple regulated the user-experience with the Mac (whereas the PC was open), which seems to have been too constraining. It might seem that history could repeat here, but there's a crucial difference: tablets are now a consumer device, like Sony used to make.
dokem 14y ago
> It was like arguing with a Tea Partier. I'm sorry, but why was this comparison necessary?
- mdonahoe 14y ago
  It captures his frustration: arguing with someone, knowing no amount of logic or evidence will change their position. An atheist might say its like arguing with a christian. A pc person might say its like arguing with an apple fanboy. Batman arguing with joker? This was not a great or balanced blog post by any means, but I didn't think this sentence was the worst part.
- randomchars 14y ago
  Because he can't say arguing with a christian. Are you one of them?
  - dokem 14y ago
    I am not, it just seemed like an immature comparison to make.
Todd 14y ago
It's a shame to see Marco panning the Surface so thoroughly. It's apples and oranges. On the one hand, comparing brand new hardware (one day old) with 4th generation hardware and on the other hand comparing brand new software (again, one day old) with version 6 software. Despite the criticisms of some of the execution here and there (e.g., the pointless animations), it's clear if you've done any reading that a tremendous amount of research and UX work went into this--but it's a v1 product and many of the apps are written by groups other than MS. I got a chance to use the Surface today and the thing that I came away with was that this could be a person's only computer. As an example, you can browse the file system, run desktop apps, and copy files to external storage. I can't say that about an iPad. Everyone I know who owns an iPad (myself included) also has a second computer somewhere--often in the same bag. The other thing I came away with was that Microsoft is open and Apple is closed. Why can't I plug a microSD card into any Apple product? Why can't I plug in a USB device? You can plug your camera into the Surface (it's a host) and download pictures to your local machine. MS has several capacities and price points, just like Apple, but they're not afraid to let you use external storage. I believe in a future with open computing and, firmware lock downs notwithstanding, MS is far more open than Apple.
- babesh 14y ago
  It is not apples and oranges. People making a utility-based purchasing decision can only compare the 1st generation Surface to the 4th generation iPad. The amount of R&D has no relevance to a consumer. The relevant thing is how much value the device provides. I agree that the expectation and advantage is to have your tablet serve as your one and only computer. But this will never be actually true since most people will actually have to carry around a phone (or phablet). The portability and availability of a phone will beat out that of a tablet. Try jogging with a tablet. What a tablet currently buys you is a larger screen and a keyboard that you can type on for awhile. A truer statement may be that this tablet's aim is to take on additional functionality found in desktops and laptops and not found in other tablets. In Microsoft's mind, that functionality is Office and access the file system. You can plug in microSD and USD into an iPad. You need the accessories. Agree that they don't let you use external storage. If you want open computing, you shouldn't be picking Microsoft, nor Apple, nor Google. Are you saying that you want to depend on an entity whose sole purpose is to make money to supply you with open source code in the long run? How about Oracle with Java? Or Compuserve with gif? Corporations don't even trust other corporations with key technologies without making them open source or FRAND. If you truly want open source, you should be branching Android and replacing or removing Google services with open source alternatives.
mun2mun 14y ago
Just look at the caption of third image. He is so much into trolling that he didn't mind pulling his son into it.
akproxy 14y ago
>>The staff loved Adam so much that he later vomited in the Apple Store. There was also a storm in Africa and an earthquake on moon (Titan's) because of it. Marco, right? >>People who dislike Apple’s approach or whose requirements are incompatible with it will always exist in great numbers, and the Surface is for them. Breaking news: Before writing this post, Marco, Gruber and Siegler participated in their personal marathon group masturbation session. >>Apple’s products say, “You can’t do that because we think it would suck.” Microsoft’s products say, “We’ll let you try to do anything on anything if you really want to, even if it sucks.” Proof of concept: Marco missed analogy, logic and common sense classes; not particularly in given order. What will happen if Apple closes shop somehow? Well, for one, I will be sad to say goodbye to such an awesome company and its good products but Marco will show symptoms of menopause.
Shinkei 14y ago
Good lord... this is an article written by someone with an incredible bias. I mean he takes so many low-blows on the salespeople and belittles everyone and everything about the store. They are trained to sell things to an average consumer... not a tech-savvy blogger who knows his/her stuff. Most consumers don't even know what a sound card is or that a computer has ram. Marco needs to relax... not to mention that his mean-spirited article with identifiable employee faces could subject him to civil liability.
nextstep 14y ago
I could not agree more with the distinction the author draws between Apple's products and Microsoft. Sure, Apple's ecosystem is limited, but Microsoft's offering is very rough and will do many tasks poorly at the cost of doing just a few tasks well.
mariusmg 14y ago
This guy is biased. That's all.
- corporalagumbo 14y ago
  So does this alleged "bias" invalidate his criticisms of Microsoft's retail efforts?
  - deong 14y ago
    I don't know. That's the problem with bias. I haven't seen a surface in person or visited a Microsoft store, but from the entire tone of the article, I know I can't trust his account. He may be a veritable prophet with regards to Microsoft and the Surface, but if I can't trust him (and I don't), I'll have to figure that out on my own.
ditoa 14y ago
I am waiting to see the pricing on the Surface Pro. That is what I am interested in. I was very close to buying an ultrabook but am holding off to see how the SP is as a general computer as well as a tablet.
aik 14y ago
Odd, I played with the Surface yesterday and the device I used was much different than the one described here. I have an iPad (and love it in many ways), however found the Surface fairly refreshing in several ways. For one: I find that I can't really hold the iPad with one hand, partially because the shape and weight distribution, partially because it feels so incredibly fragile. I found the Surface to be shaped comfortably, even for one hand, and thought it felt much more durable than the iPad (this article states it doesn't feel light like the iPhone 5, however even though it's comparable in weight to the iPad 3, my first thought was that it feels kind of like the lightness and increased sense of durability of the iPhone 5). >> I couldn’t type on the Touch Cover significantly faster than with the on-screen keyboard. Seriously? I type on the iPad a lot and resort to "pecking" most of the time, and I have fairly average sized hands. I instantly was able to use the touch cover like a normal keyboard. I made a few mistakes, but could easily see myself typing nearly as fast as a normal keyboard with a little practice. I have no such feeling with the iPad. >> Apple’s products say, “You can’t do that because we think it would suck.” Microsoft’s products say, “We’ll let you try to do anything on anything if you really want to, even if it sucks.” Wow, what a sad sounding world for people who like Apple products. I'm not going to buy a Surface yet, but I'm seriously tempted.
- olalonde 14y ago
  Haven't tried the Surface yet but something I haven't seen anyone mention is that when you are typing on the Touch Cover, your hands are not hiding the screen. That seems like a big plus to me. Kickstarter idea: pitch a "Touch Cover" product for the iPad (could be done using the USB port I believe). PS: lawyer up!
  - Osiris 14y ago
    I thought the author's comment about being able to type as fast on the on-screen keyboard as the type cover was totally missing the point. The on-screen keyboard takes up half the screen. Plus, with the type cover, you can hold the screen at a good viewing angle while typing on a flat surface.
  - gregsq 14y ago
cromwellian 14y ago
Wait, so Apple invented the idea of a store with flat tables and sales staff with blue shirts? First of all, practically every high end women's shoe or bag store had that "Art Gallery" presentation style: hardwood floors, uncluttered and spacious, simply flat tables or shelves with few products. Although the sales people are usually dressed very sharp. But Apple did not invent this style of presenting consumer electronics. Sometimes I feel like Marco, MG, and Gruber were born 5 years ago. Am I the only one who bought nice, industrial designed stuff from stores like Bang and Olufsen? The Beocom 2 came out in 2002 and some of the Bang and Olufsen stores had flat tables like that. And if you visited some of the boutique stores in Italy or Japan even 10 years ago you would find some with this layout. And didn't BestBuy invent the blue-shirt guy? I'm kind of bored of the continued notion that Apple was the first consumer electronics company to obsess over industrial design, build quality, or retail presentation.
- pedalpete 14y ago
  You don't even have to go to the B&O stores, you can hit much closer to home with the computer set and Sony stores.
- jopt 14y ago
  That's an important point. When Samsung or Microsoft take hints from what Apple do, many decry this as though Apple were never themselves inspired, and that's misinformed. (others) -> Bang Olufsen, fashion boutiques -> Apple Stores -> Microsoft Stores -> (future) This chain of inspiration is precisely what makes intellectual property very vague to reason about. Meanwhile, it's probably also misinformed to say Microsoft or Samsung were not inspired by Apple. I don't think Microsoft were primarily influenced by Bang Olufsen stores. I don't think this is the direction they would have taken without Apple doing it before them. I don't know if Macro is not seeing the picture clearly or if he's just miscommunicating. If he's saying that Apple was the original source of this store layout, that's silly. If he's trying to point out that Microsoft's decisions were largely a reaction to Apple's, he's not wrong.
- ansonparker 14y ago
  Apple aren't great because they invent everything from scratch. They're great because they are able to consistently identify the best ideas and combine them into something amazing. Microsoft, on the other hand, seem to take a bunch of concepts at face value and mash them together without totally understanding them. Or perhaps in a company so large and distributed it's more a case of great ideas becoming corrupted over time. I don't know. Look at Marco's photos of the Microsoft store. On the surface it looks like they did a good job. Look a little closer and you quickly see dumb decisions. For example, the "Windows 8" lettering on the floor they need a staff member to warn people not to step over. It's these mis-steps that undermine Microsoft and make them look like they're simply ripping off Apple Stores (and tablets) without really understanding what makes them awesome.
mtgx 14y ago
The MS store employee who says you can't see any pixels is obviously lying, and I'm guessing that's what Microsoft told them to say.
forrestthewoods 14y ago
This post is 1/100th as useful as full write ups from Wired, Verge, ArsTechnica, or Anandtech. It's just not deep, insightful, or meaningful in comparison. I'd highly recommend reading those reviews if you're looking for anything insightful about the Surface.
bztzt 14y ago
well, he correctly noticed that the gestures and animations take a different approach than Apple's but that apparently just makes them "wrong" to him - Apple's is the only valid approach. fwiw, here's a good presentation of the design rationale behind the use of animations in Windows 8: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/BUILD2011/APP-206T http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/BUILD2011/APP-206T Gestures: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/TechDays/Techdays-2012-the-Netherlands/2373 http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/TechDays/Techdays-2012-the-N...
- jopt 14y ago
  Can't you summarize? I don't have 120 minutes. If you spend one minute making your point, and I spend one minute reading it, this conversation will be more efficient. Sources are great when they support or expand on points you're making, but they're no replacement for dialogue. The comments become really spammy if it's all just links to videos and research papers.
  - bztzt 14y ago
    Yeah, I realized most / everyone probably wouldn't have time to watch but hoped someone might be interested. I guess my basic point is that the animations and gestures are deliberately designed to feel more precise and clarify the discrete actions you're taking (which is to put a more positive spin on what he describes negatively as "feeling like a computer" - not that either spin is right or wrong). It's a purposeful contrast to Apple's bubblier approach, it's not that they tried to make their animations like Apple's but Didn't Get It.
    - jopt 14y ago
      Thanks, that's a good point. I haven't seen the Microsoft Surface in person, but this is throwing some doubt on Marco's testimony.
jemeshsu 14y ago
For Apple we have MG, Gruber and Marco. For Microsoft, is there any? And for Google?
wickedbass 14y ago
Honestly, after it became blatantly obvious that the author is the protaginist in an all-out Apple circlejerk epic, I couldn't read anymore. Terrible review and even though I'm skeptical on Microsoft, I would never listen to such biased crap
pacomerh 14y ago
This guy is naturally arrogant. I totally understand how Microsoft is missing the point but come on, what is the point of this article?, is he trying to point out that people are missing these kind of things?.
kirillzubovsky 14y ago
Very entertaining. Thank you for posting!
rhplus 14y ago
The pictures clearly show that the entire mall is empty, not just the Microsoft store.
exodust 14y ago
Why oh why did I read another pointless Apple fanboy article. It really isn't worth taking sides with these big companies and their sales tactics... Both play cheap awkward tricks. Both are trying to get your money and manipulate your habits. The last line of the article says it all "I fled Windows 8 years ago with no intention of returning". Wow, thanks for that information. I really needed to know about your blind faith in Apple, and your feelings for Windows. I'm sure you attend Apple store openings and queue for the high-fives and woot-woots.
jamesbrennan 14y ago
Great article. I get that some want the hardware upgradeability of MS PCs, but your can't do anything to Windows because its closed source. I buy Macs because I get the benefits of both a polished and (somewhat) open source operating system - not to mention its Unix. Also, in Apple hardware you actually know what you're getting - the majority of it is Intel. With other manufacturers unless you custom build your machine, its hard to know what you're actually getting inside beyond the specs on paper.
ezolotko 14y ago
It is especially sad to read such an article after the release of iOS 6. Before, it was a bit rude, biased and all, but now I feel it cannot be justified anymore.
- corporalagumbo 14y ago
  What are you trying to imply? That criticisms of Microsoft's retail efforts are no longer valid because Apple made a mistake with Maps?
  - ezolotko 14y ago
    Not exactly. I personally suffer from how the AppStore iOS application is made. Then the maps. The quality of many details is lost. After such obvious defects, it is hard to be in position to be extravagant and rude. The love is gone.
mrich 14y ago
The pitches were aggressive, fast-paced, and competitively defensive: they often mentioned “other tablets” and didn’t let me forget which features were “not available on any other tablet”. This sounds like a description of the iPad mini keynote.
- randomchars 14y ago
  My thoughts exactly.
nnq 14y ago
"It feels too much like using a Windows PC" ...bingo! That's the point, Windows 7 and 8 offer great desktop experiences and having "one system to rule them all" is the selling point ...though I'd rather have an x86 version of the tablet with the ability to use exactly the same software since the type cover is basically a usable keyboard ...hope Intel does some magic with ultra low power x86 chips soon
lifeisstillgood 14y ago
If the alternate universe is one where "you can expand and alter even if it sucks" then can I boot BSD on surface?
radicalbyte 14y ago
Am I the only one who finds this blind following of a specific platform all rather childish?* Platform zealotry is the domain of children, the feeble minded and host of shills who feed on the above two groups (and the platform holder's marketing budgets). * Rhetorical question (I expect that most HNers agree).
davidpayne11 14y ago
You need some credibility before you write articles about huge corporations that have achieved something. Atleast you must be somewhere near the top of the hierarchy where your subject is, to understand fully about them, so you can even consider writing about them. I fail to see how a guy with an app on an Appstore can think he is credible enough to write about a huge corporation that has taken risks he wouldn't even imagine taking himself and has had first hand experience and information about the market better than this guy. Microsoft is the one that makes the marketplace and Marco is just someone who submits his apps there. That's the difference in their positions in the hierarchy. What a shitty article.
- corporalagumbo 14y ago
  He walked into a store and hated it. For any company that cares about success he is credible.
- wiredzen 14y ago
  So, in order to have an opinion, one must have credibility? Credibility in whose eyes? Yours? Mine? This is, in my opinion, an utterly ridiculous comment in it its elitist and exclusionary tone. Are but a dog on a leash? I ask because you've basically just stated that corporations are beyond criticism from individuals. So, apparently we should all be corporate zombies like you, just toeing the line, never questioning... Yes, that is much better for the world. The irony is that all the people hacking on Marco for giving his opinion are doing exactly the same thing right here. So let me get this straight - as long as you (or anybody) agrees with a stated opinion, then that opinion should be allowed to exist, praised even. But once you disagree with that opinion then you will come up with countless reasons why that opinion should be removed. Hypocrite.
sam1799 14y ago
After reading this article I once again realized why I'll never even think about buying an Apple product. It seems using Apple products turn people into arrogant self-righteous snobs. Sorry, but I don't want to become one of "them". I'm happy with my Surface and other Microsoft products.
myspy 14y ago
I don't know why it is so hard to understand, that some people want to have the best experience. The iPad does not everything, but at what it does, it tries to be the best. The Surface is trying to be best at everything, but that creates so many trade-offs, it drags down the user experience. I left Win XP, and Windows 7 did not make me come back, because there are so many things that lack decision making in leaving features out rather than putting everything in. Metro is a step in the right direction, but it needs more finish. A computer should help you, and guide you to achieve a goal. A Win PC usually needs a lot of work to bend him in a way which enables you to do your task. And I have enough of that. Why do I need experts in an Office program? Why not making the Office program so intuitive, that it is super easy to create a set of documents? Why not cutting unnecessary features out? A Metro version of Office, which does that, wouldn't that be great? Furthermore, I don't want to tinker, I don't want to dig through five layers of settings. I want to see the IT world going on. And Windows was not really helping in pushing the world forward in the last decade. Apple did. That's why some of the praise and "fanboism" is justified. Let's see who leads the next decade, but have an open mind and acknowledge the fact that people like Marco, Gruber, or MG have an idea of what they are talking about. They give credit where credit is due. But MS has to do a lot more to earn that credit. Maybe they have to cut some things out of the Metro side and go dual platform. It will help to make Metro something that pushes forward the whole industry. When a lot of people are used to Win 8, maybe it's a good thing to go separate ways with Win 9. The "professionals" will use their desktop and the rest is used to Metro and maybe they will see how it excels the desktop version with ease of use.
kmfrk 14y ago
Glad to see he went in there with an open mind.
bornhuetter 14y ago
This is just pure trollbait. It's disappointing to see it on HN, as it doesn't provoke any useful discussion whatsoever.
smackfu 14y ago
This is pretty much the same insufferable stuff he goes into when he talks about Microsoft on his podcast. A general ignorance because he never uses the stuff (except long wnough to look for flaws) but that doesn't stop him from being an expert in his mind. I just hit the two minute skip button until I get to the Apple topics where I think he has informed opinions.
- Magenta 14y ago
  ..but he used Microsoft products, 8 years ago! Doesn't that make him an expert on all things Microsoft?
olgeni 14y ago
Of course, Apple clearly offers the best design, performance, user experience, documentation, reliability, and overall quality. (pause) Can I have my UIGlassButton now? Even Genius-blue-only would be a start.
underwater 14y ago
So apparently the stores are too much like Apple's, but the tablet is not similar enough. The one to one feature comparison to the iPad is silly. The surface is not trying to be a carbon copy. Features like retina display come with trade offs in power, speed and cost that were obviously not worth the trade off. It seems that ever since Apple raised the issue pixels have gone from being something few ever thought about to being physically painful to consumer's eyeballs. There were a few factual inaccuracies in Marco's post. The touch keyboard does allow you to rest your fingers on the surface. It's smart enought to recognize what is intended to be an actual keystroke. Rotating the screen does show a transition too; the screen shrinks, fades and expands.

242 points by tnorthcutt 14y ago

mythz 14y ago

This looks just like the Apple Store, but without the customers :)

It's true that the Surface is coming in at a 10" form-factor when the iPad holds 70% of the market and the real battle is happening on the 7", slightly lower end market.

evoxed 14y ago
I had a bit of a tinfoil hat epiphany just yesterday about this... consider: -Until now, Apple has been adamant about not releasing a smaller iPad. -Apple has a ridiculously efficient supply chain which can probably adapt very well, considering the next point... -Tim Cook just went on record saying that Apple wasn't concerned about product cannibalization. -The Surface tablet is just about to stick it's foot in the door, well after Apple has established itself at the top. Aside from the obvious (consumer demand), does anyone else think this might just be one of the most comfortable bets they can make? Put out 7" tablets while they're hot, let people forget about the Surface, by the time Surface 2 goes 7" they can push out a much newer full iPad line...
- r00fus 14y ago
  I honestly think Tim doesn't really see Microsoft as a threat just yet. The iPad mini is a response to low-price disruption from Amazon and Google. I think Amazon's "$50/year data plan" gives more heartburn to Apple strategists than anything Microsoft has put on the table or even hinted at.

paperwork 14y ago

Quite a nice writeup. It saddens me to see Microsoft disappointing, time after time. There must be great material for anthropologists to figure out how such an incredibly smart and talented group of people, with almost unlimited amount of money, can continue to be second-rate. In fact, comparing the cultures around Linux, MS and Apple is bound to reveal some greater truths about human/societal behavior which could be applied to improving the lot of countries and cultures which have stagnated.

sam1799 14y ago
How is the Surface disappointing? Explain please. Surface has by far the better hardware, and Windows 8 has a FAR better UI and UX than iOS. How is the Surface worse than the iPad? It's way ahead.
- MBCook 14y ago
  Most people seem to love the surface hardware, it's Windows RT I've seen most complaints about. Most people also seem to love the touch cover, and had a better experience than Marco. I read this entire piece as a critique of the MS store. The Surface just happened to be what he tried to see/mess with; an activity that was constantly interrupted by the sales staff. I went into my local MS store a few weeks ago (pre-surface). While I didn't encounter pushy salesmen, the rest of the experience was similar. The layout and design was a clear copy of Apple. The uniforms and the way they carried their ID on a lanyard was a clear copy. There was an "XBox Experience" section in the back no one was using. The Windows phones were covered in fingerprints, making it hard to see how nice the screens really were. They're trying, but it was clear to me they needed some time and experience to round some rough edges.
- randomchars 14y ago
  Better hardware? How is the surface's harware better? Not even if we put aside the shitty screen.

RyJones 14y ago

His impression pretty much matches mine, except I'm more enthused by the keyboard covers. I find OSKs intolerable; I agree with his assessment that Office is useless for creation - I will argue that having a full-fidelity viewer is very nice for attachment handling.

hizanberg 14y ago

Seriously? blue uniforms, white name tags, flat display tables, guru bars... It's like they purposely tried to copy every distinguishable Apple retail formula except they're pushing PCs. Does noone have any creativity left anymore?

firefoxman1 14y ago
It's Microsoft. Microsoft has never been about innovation or creativity. I'm not one to bash them, it's just important to look back at their history. Their last innovation was the Start menu.
bbissoon 14y ago
It's not about creativity when you're running a store. It's about finding a method that works and tweaking it to fit your product. The creativity is in the product and advertising.
- firefoxman1 14y ago
  Unless you want your restaurant to be known as the "best" in town. That requires more than just tweaking.
  - bbissoon 14y ago
    ... food hasn't really changed much in our generation. Only tweaked by ways of cooking it. I promise you - whatever you ate in the last week has only been tweaked. The creativity came with the people who created the dish long ago.
- hizanberg 14y ago
  So every other tech retail company that doesn't copy Apple is foolish? If that's the case we're headed towards a bland, uninspiring world.
  - bbissoon 14y ago
    The loyalty of Apple's consumers speaks volume. It's only natural for tech companies to follow their lead. It's about great customers service and that's not limited to Apple.

andrewfelix 14y ago

How surprising, Marco panning Microsoft products. That store experience does sound awful though. There's nothing more off putting than over eager sales staff interrupting your curiosity.

niels_olson 14y ago
I have been to MSFT stores in San Diego and Seattle. They were like that before Surface. I felt dirty, and a little sad for everyone in the store.
- jser 14y ago
  Visiting their store feels like you've stepped into a Halloween horror movie. The staff must be forced to take lithium at the start of each shift. At the Microsoft store in Chicago, it's not only empty and in the least 'cool' part of the city (distant suburbs), but the constant demos felt like I was a victim in a Saw movie. I had to enthusiastically play a Kinect game... or else.
robryan 14y ago
To be fair, in terms of Microsoft pieces from the big Apple bloggers, this comes off more fair than the stuff Gruber and MG write.
underwater 14y ago
The Apple store do the forced cheering by sales staff. I find that really tacky.
- snambi 14y ago
  Apple stores so crowded, its hard to get the attention of the sales guys. They are super busy, even on a monday morning. In santa clara, the microsoft store is right in front of apple store. Once I went to apple store on a monday morning, to fix my wife's phone. The apple store was packed at 10.30 AM, I had to wait 2 hours to get it fixed. So, to kill time I went into the microsoft store, which was literally empty. There were more staff than customers. I don't know why microsoft is opening stores.

petercooper 14y ago

Oh my.. this cringeworthy exchange reminds me of when Larry David tried selling cars :-) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neqO5y3Xaq8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neqO5y3Xaq8

ericfrenkiel 14y ago

this is such a biased article with strawman arguments ("can you replace the sound card on the surface?") and silly comparisons(the author actually writes he could buy 2 ipad minis for 1 surface). the criticisms about the store experience and salesmen notwithstanding, this is apple fanboism at its best. It's far better to keep an open mind and experience new ways of interaction than to deride/scoff at alternative UI and UX. I switch between Android, Windows, and Mac OSX; it's far more interesting to enjoy more platforms than forgo trying new experiences.

andrewljohnson 14y ago
Have you tried a Microsoft Surface? I think he can scoff at the UI since he tried it.
- ericfrenkiel 14y ago
  Yes, I'm typing on one right now =) It certainly has some flaws as a first generation product, but on the whole it's a breath of fresh air in the tablet space.
  - snambi 14y ago
    did you buy it?
    - randartie 14y ago
      or did he receive it today as a Microsoft employee?
      - ericfrenkiel 14y ago
        No lol, i work at MemSQL
      - deleted 14y ago
        [deleted]
    - 14y ago

dmix 14y ago

> it wasn’t clear whether there just wasn’t a hidden context menu at that moment or I just screwed up the swipe This was the hardest thing for me when I was trying out Windows 8. Was never sure the menu didn't exist or my mouse wasn't in the corner properly.

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

kordless 14y ago

After reading maybe 1/4 of this I was left thinking if you can't say something positive, don't say anything at all.

jser 14y ago
Without criticism, nothing will improve.
- Magenta 14y ago
  Depends on the criticism. Constructive criticism, sure. Blinkered, petty, negative criticism from someone who made up his mind years ago? Not so much.

wvenable 14y ago

> People who dislike Apple’s approach or whose requirements are incompatible with it will always exist in great numbers, and the Surface is for them. I disagree. Historically, Microsoft software products have been more customizable and more flexible than what comes from Apple. PC hardware as well. But what we're seeing now, with Windows 8, is a departure from that. Microsoft isn't just copying Apple's store -- they're copying the fundamental mind-set behind Apple's software. Instead of a general purpose computing machine, they're both trying to sell closed consumer electronics products. In my opinion, Microsoft took their biggest advantage and tossed it. People who dislike Apple's approach or whose requirements are incompatible aren't going to find much of an alternative. Microsoft seems to think they can compete with Apple on Apple's terms.

mandeepj 14y ago
Few weeks ago, there was a news about ballmer praising and hinting at adopting the Apple's approach of integrated hardware and software. Surface is the move in that direction. http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/us-microsoft-ceo-idUSBRE8981GF20121010 http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/10/us-microsoft-ceo-i...
erickhill 14y ago
And thus Android/Chrome may become the new "frankenstein customizable" option, which MS has historically been.
- Camillo 14y ago
  Maybe Android, but I can't see how Chrome could be that. It's a browser that runs web applications. Every other OS has a browser and runs web applications.
6ren 14y ago
True, but maybe the nature of the demand has changed, as computers have matured into consumer devices. However... if some new way of using computers comes along, it seems more likely to emerge in a more open system (like windows or android or linux) than in a closed one. Or maybe at the level of ARM SoC, with its own hardware.

taylorbuley 14y ago

I've got VMWare Fusion on a Macbook Air so I have the luxury of being able to pick my OS and application for most tasks (usually OS X, sometimes Ubuntu and rarely Windows). I took Windows 8 for a test drive today and I will be happily replacing the native OS X Calendar and Mail with the Windows 8 alternatives.

jser 14y ago
Curious -- why so? Reviews that I read seemed to indicate that the mail application was quite weak (e.g. can't even drag and drop mail into folders).
- taylorbuley 14y ago
  That's a good point and I could see how it could be troublesome for some. For me, I like the simplified interface. The design is a driving factor for me, rather than features.
josteink 14y ago
Mail? Seriously? I'm using Windows 8 on my (non touchscreen) laptop, for the overall improvements on the platform and I'm very happy about it so far. And it means I have day to day experience using it. And so far, I think the Mail-app is one of the weakest apps to the point where I wondered if Microsoft is seriously releasing this as their RTM, finalized Mail-client for the masses. If I may ask: What part about it do you find so faverouble? Is there some hidden gem I have missed?
- taylorbuley 14y ago
  Noted in a sibling comment, not being able to drag mail is a bummer. And on further exploration I definitely miss being able to search. But selecting it and moving it isn't too bad, and I can use mail.google.com when I need to -- overall I'm not concerned about a lack of features for this desktop client. My guess would be that they applied the Aol user principle to the mail app and figured you'd use Outlook if you need a more featureful application.

recoiledsnake 14y ago

>The Surface is partially for Microsoft’s world of denial: the world in which this store contains no elephants and Microsoft invented the silver store with the glass front and the glowing logo and blue shirts and white lanyards and these table layouts and the modern tablet and its magnetic power cable Huh what? It looks like Marco's the one living in an alternate universe. I seriously doubt anyone would believe that. The whole "if you don't adore the iPad you're in denial" thing says more about the writer than the Microsoft store salesman. What bugs me the most about the Apple bloggers like Gruber, Siegler and Marco is their hate towards anything non-Apple, especially Android and Microsoft. It's one thing to like something, but to hate on something else because of that is very narrow minded.

msutherl 14y ago
They hate it because it sucks. His whole article is about how much and why it sucks. Then he concludes that maybe it doesn't suck. Maybe it's just him. It reminds me of Winston Smith, wondering whether it's he that's insane after all.
- jbigelow76 14y ago
  That's kind of a grandiose comparison don't you think? 1984 is a cautionary (prescient?) fable about a totalitarianistic dystopia and the other is a tedious rant about consumer electronics in a shopping mall.
  - Ygg2 14y ago
    There are some funny parables that can be drawn between 1984 and the way iOS walled garden functions. It's not the same ofc, but to the hacker ethos it behaves in much the same way. EDIT: Just to make sure, by hacker ethos I consider something in the lines of Stallman which is a staunch proponent of tinker everything.
    - randomchars 14y ago
      And the way Windows RT's walled garden works?

tankbot 14y ago

It's obvious that the writer is an Apple person but the piece doesn't feel too biased. This makes me a little sad, I was rooting for Microsoft this time.

mandeepj 14y ago
I am still rooting for Microsoft this time. I can see myself using surface as a reading device as well as popping up visual studio and writing code in C# :-)
modarts 14y ago
Doesnt't feel biased? Was I reading the same post?
- berntb 14y ago
  Ok, enough is enough. I have read too much of this. The author made serious points (even the store uniforms(!) are copied, bad animation handling, office apps are slow, etc, etc). Why are the anti-Apple fan boys just complaining that the article is biased -- instead of showing that it is biased by answering the "biased" points?
  - corporalagumbo 14y ago
    Thanks, I am also tired of this conflation of valid criticism with "bias."
  - modarts 14y ago
    The entire tone of his post from the outset seemed like he really had an axe to grind. It was like reading an article Fox News would publish about an Obama rally.
    - berntb 14y ago
      I asked for arguments against the content of the article. You lack that? Edit: The criticism of the Surface is echoed here: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/10/microsoft-surface-rt-review-this-is-technological-heartbreak/ http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/10/microsoft-surface-rt-revie... (I'm not going to bother to read more about non-retina pads/laptops. My eyes are too old and spoiled.)

rjzzleep 14y ago

not a ms person here(not at ALL in fact). but ok i get it, was reading, then started skimming, then got to the conclusion tl;dr. apple store employees handing out stupid useless flyers in the middle of the street in gangs of 3 is better of course. microsoft is giving out muffin fragments? i'm surprised they gave out anything at all.

Magenta 14y ago

Marco Arment enters a Microsoft store beady-eyed, looking for things to nitpick, sneering at everything, seeing the negative side of everything. Whodathunkit. The article by this fully-grown adult is summed up as he bitches about how "he isn't told how to exit other stores." What a clown.

thethe 14y ago
Beady-eyed?

hdra 14y ago

I don't why would an adult would even bother to write something like this.

pacomerh 14y ago
This is totally true, this guy has crossed the line of constructive criticism. But its kind of obvious, his main (maybe only) income comes from apple, so he has to compare everything to his life provider.

khalidmbajwa 14y ago

Is it just me, or does the Article really does comes across as quite snarky in tone rather than an honest observation of what he saw ?

randomchars 14y ago
It's just you.

6ren 14y ago

I feel bad for Microsoft. When you are first with a new product with great benefits, everyone forgives your missteps, because it's the only one - the best there is. But when you copy, you are competing with something that has been through iterations of feedback and corrections and bugfix and improvement. You are held to that higher standard, even though you're just starting out! Also, in the past, Apple regulated the user-experience with the Mac (whereas the PC was open), which seems to have been too constraining. It might seem that history could repeat here, but there's a crucial difference: tablets are now a consumer device, like Sony used to make.

dokem 14y ago

> It was like arguing with a Tea Partier. I'm sorry, but why was this comparison necessary?

mdonahoe 14y ago
It captures his frustration: arguing with someone, knowing no amount of logic or evidence will change their position. An atheist might say its like arguing with a christian. A pc person might say its like arguing with an apple fanboy. Batman arguing with joker? This was not a great or balanced blog post by any means, but I didn't think this sentence was the worst part.
randomchars 14y ago
Because he can't say arguing with a christian. Are you one of them?
- dokem 14y ago
  I am not, it just seemed like an immature comparison to make.

Todd 14y ago

It's a shame to see Marco panning the Surface so thoroughly. It's apples and oranges. On the one hand, comparing brand new hardware (one day old) with 4th generation hardware and on the other hand comparing brand new software (again, one day old) with version 6 software. Despite the criticisms of some of the execution here and there (e.g., the pointless animations), it's clear if you've done any reading that a tremendous amount of research and UX work went into this--but it's a v1 product and many of the apps are written by groups other than MS. I got a chance to use the Surface today and the thing that I came away with was that this could be a person's only computer. As an example, you can browse the file system, run desktop apps, and copy files to external storage. I can't say that about an iPad. Everyone I know who owns an iPad (myself included) also has a second computer somewhere--often in the same bag. The other thing I came away with was that Microsoft is open and Apple is closed. Why can't I plug a microSD card into any Apple product? Why can't I plug in a USB device? You can plug your camera into the Surface (it's a host) and download pictures to your local machine. MS has several capacities and price points, just like Apple, but they're not afraid to let you use external storage. I believe in a future with open computing and, firmware lock downs notwithstanding, MS is far more open than Apple.

babesh 14y ago
It is not apples and oranges. People making a utility-based purchasing decision can only compare the 1st generation Surface to the 4th generation iPad. The amount of R&D has no relevance to a consumer. The relevant thing is how much value the device provides. I agree that the expectation and advantage is to have your tablet serve as your one and only computer. But this will never be actually true since most people will actually have to carry around a phone (or phablet). The portability and availability of a phone will beat out that of a tablet. Try jogging with a tablet. What a tablet currently buys you is a larger screen and a keyboard that you can type on for awhile. A truer statement may be that this tablet's aim is to take on additional functionality found in desktops and laptops and not found in other tablets. In Microsoft's mind, that functionality is Office and access the file system. You can plug in microSD and USD into an iPad. You need the accessories. Agree that they don't let you use external storage. If you want open computing, you shouldn't be picking Microsoft, nor Apple, nor Google. Are you saying that you want to depend on an entity whose sole purpose is to make money to supply you with open source code in the long run? How about Oracle with Java? Or Compuserve with gif? Corporations don't even trust other corporations with key technologies without making them open source or FRAND. If you truly want open source, you should be branching Android and replacing or removing Google services with open source alternatives.

mun2mun 14y ago

Just look at the caption of third image. He is so much into trolling that he didn't mind pulling his son into it.

akproxy 14y ago

>>The staff loved Adam so much that he later vomited in the Apple Store. There was also a storm in Africa and an earthquake on moon (Titan's) because of it. Marco, right? >>People who dislike Apple’s approach or whose requirements are incompatible with it will always exist in great numbers, and the Surface is for them. Breaking news: Before writing this post, Marco, Gruber and Siegler participated in their personal marathon group masturbation session. >>Apple’s products say, “You can’t do that because we think it would suck.” Microsoft’s products say, “We’ll let you try to do anything on anything if you really want to, even if it sucks.” Proof of concept: Marco missed analogy, logic and common sense classes; not particularly in given order. What will happen if Apple closes shop somehow? Well, for one, I will be sad to say goodbye to such an awesome company and its good products but Marco will show symptoms of menopause.

Shinkei 14y ago

Good lord... this is an article written by someone with an incredible bias. I mean he takes so many low-blows on the salespeople and belittles everyone and everything about the store. They are trained to sell things to an average consumer... not a tech-savvy blogger who knows his/her stuff. Most consumers don't even know what a sound card is or that a computer has ram. Marco needs to relax... not to mention that his mean-spirited article with identifiable employee faces could subject him to civil liability.

nextstep 14y ago

I could not agree more with the distinction the author draws between Apple's products and Microsoft. Sure, Apple's ecosystem is limited, but Microsoft's offering is very rough and will do many tasks poorly at the cost of doing just a few tasks well.

mariusmg 14y ago

This guy is biased. That's all.

corporalagumbo 14y ago
So does this alleged "bias" invalidate his criticisms of Microsoft's retail efforts?
- deong 14y ago
  I don't know. That's the problem with bias. I haven't seen a surface in person or visited a Microsoft store, but from the entire tone of the article, I know I can't trust his account. He may be a veritable prophet with regards to Microsoft and the Surface, but if I can't trust him (and I don't), I'll have to figure that out on my own.

ditoa 14y ago

I am waiting to see the pricing on the Surface Pro. That is what I am interested in. I was very close to buying an ultrabook but am holding off to see how the SP is as a general computer as well as a tablet.

aik 14y ago

Odd, I played with the Surface yesterday and the device I used was much different than the one described here. I have an iPad (and love it in many ways), however found the Surface fairly refreshing in several ways. For one: I find that I can't really hold the iPad with one hand, partially because the shape and weight distribution, partially because it feels so incredibly fragile. I found the Surface to be shaped comfortably, even for one hand, and thought it felt much more durable than the iPad (this article states it doesn't feel light like the iPhone 5, however even though it's comparable in weight to the iPad 3, my first thought was that it feels kind of like the lightness and increased sense of durability of the iPhone 5). >> I couldn’t type on the Touch Cover significantly faster than with the on-screen keyboard. Seriously? I type on the iPad a lot and resort to "pecking" most of the time, and I have fairly average sized hands. I instantly was able to use the touch cover like a normal keyboard. I made a few mistakes, but could easily see myself typing nearly as fast as a normal keyboard with a little practice. I have no such feeling with the iPad. >> Apple’s products say, “You can’t do that because we think it would suck.” Microsoft’s products say, “We’ll let you try to do anything on anything if you really want to, even if it sucks.” Wow, what a sad sounding world for people who like Apple products. I'm not going to buy a Surface yet, but I'm seriously tempted.

olalonde 14y ago
Haven't tried the Surface yet but something I haven't seen anyone mention is that when you are typing on the Touch Cover, your hands are not hiding the screen. That seems like a big plus to me. Kickstarter idea: pitch a "Touch Cover" product for the iPad (could be done using the USB port I believe). PS: lawyer up!
- Osiris 14y ago
  I thought the author's comment about being able to type as fast on the on-screen keyboard as the type cover was totally missing the point. The on-screen keyboard takes up half the screen. Plus, with the type cover, you can hold the screen at a good viewing angle while typing on a flat surface.
- gregsq 14y ago

cromwellian 14y ago

Wait, so Apple invented the idea of a store with flat tables and sales staff with blue shirts? First of all, practically every high end women's shoe or bag store had that "Art Gallery" presentation style: hardwood floors, uncluttered and spacious, simply flat tables or shelves with few products. Although the sales people are usually dressed very sharp. But Apple did not invent this style of presenting consumer electronics. Sometimes I feel like Marco, MG, and Gruber were born 5 years ago. Am I the only one who bought nice, industrial designed stuff from stores like Bang and Olufsen? The Beocom 2 came out in 2002 and some of the Bang and Olufsen stores had flat tables like that. And if you visited some of the boutique stores in Italy or Japan even 10 years ago you would find some with this layout. And didn't BestBuy invent the blue-shirt guy? I'm kind of bored of the continued notion that Apple was the first consumer electronics company to obsess over industrial design, build quality, or retail presentation.

pedalpete 14y ago
You don't even have to go to the B&O stores, you can hit much closer to home with the computer set and Sony stores.
jopt 14y ago
That's an important point. When Samsung or Microsoft take hints from what Apple do, many decry this as though Apple were never themselves inspired, and that's misinformed. (others) -> Bang Olufsen, fashion boutiques -> Apple Stores -> Microsoft Stores -> (future) This chain of inspiration is precisely what makes intellectual property very vague to reason about. Meanwhile, it's probably also misinformed to say Microsoft or Samsung were not inspired by Apple. I don't think Microsoft were primarily influenced by Bang Olufsen stores. I don't think this is the direction they would have taken without Apple doing it before them. I don't know if Macro is not seeing the picture clearly or if he's just miscommunicating. If he's saying that Apple was the original source of this store layout, that's silly. If he's trying to point out that Microsoft's decisions were largely a reaction to Apple's, he's not wrong.
ansonparker 14y ago
Apple aren't great because they invent everything from scratch. They're great because they are able to consistently identify the best ideas and combine them into something amazing. Microsoft, on the other hand, seem to take a bunch of concepts at face value and mash them together without totally understanding them. Or perhaps in a company so large and distributed it's more a case of great ideas becoming corrupted over time. I don't know. Look at Marco's photos of the Microsoft store. On the surface it looks like they did a good job. Look a little closer and you quickly see dumb decisions. For example, the "Windows 8" lettering on the floor they need a staff member to warn people not to step over. It's these mis-steps that undermine Microsoft and make them look like they're simply ripping off Apple Stores (and tablets) without really understanding what makes them awesome.

mtgx 14y ago

The MS store employee who says you can't see any pixels is obviously lying, and I'm guessing that's what Microsoft told them to say.

forrestthewoods 14y ago

This post is 1/100th as useful as full write ups from Wired, Verge, ArsTechnica, or Anandtech. It's just not deep, insightful, or meaningful in comparison. I'd highly recommend reading those reviews if you're looking for anything insightful about the Surface.

bztzt 14y ago

well, he correctly noticed that the gestures and animations take a different approach than Apple's but that apparently just makes them "wrong" to him - Apple's is the only valid approach. fwiw, here's a good presentation of the design rationale behind the use of animations in Windows 8: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/BUILD2011/APP-206T http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/BUILD2011/APP-206T Gestures: http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/TechDays/Techdays-2012-the-Netherlands/2373 http://channel9.msdn.com/Events/TechDays/Techdays-2012-the-N...

jopt 14y ago
Can't you summarize? I don't have 120 minutes. If you spend one minute making your point, and I spend one minute reading it, this conversation will be more efficient. Sources are great when they support or expand on points you're making, but they're no replacement for dialogue. The comments become really spammy if it's all just links to videos and research papers.
- bztzt 14y ago
  Yeah, I realized most / everyone probably wouldn't have time to watch but hoped someone might be interested. I guess my basic point is that the animations and gestures are deliberately designed to feel more precise and clarify the discrete actions you're taking (which is to put a more positive spin on what he describes negatively as "feeling like a computer" - not that either spin is right or wrong). It's a purposeful contrast to Apple's bubblier approach, it's not that they tried to make their animations like Apple's but Didn't Get It.
  - jopt 14y ago
    Thanks, that's a good point. I haven't seen the Microsoft Surface in person, but this is throwing some doubt on Marco's testimony.

jemeshsu 14y ago

For Apple we have MG, Gruber and Marco. For Microsoft, is there any? And for Google?

wickedbass 14y ago

Honestly, after it became blatantly obvious that the author is the protaginist in an all-out Apple circlejerk epic, I couldn't read anymore. Terrible review and even though I'm skeptical on Microsoft, I would never listen to such biased crap

pacomerh 14y ago

This guy is naturally arrogant. I totally understand how Microsoft is missing the point but come on, what is the point of this article?, is he trying to point out that people are missing these kind of things?.

kirillzubovsky 14y ago

Very entertaining. Thank you for posting!

rhplus 14y ago

The pictures clearly show that the entire mall is empty, not just the Microsoft store.

exodust 14y ago

Why oh why did I read another pointless Apple fanboy article. It really isn't worth taking sides with these big companies and their sales tactics... Both play cheap awkward tricks. Both are trying to get your money and manipulate your habits. The last line of the article says it all "I fled Windows 8 years ago with no intention of returning". Wow, thanks for that information. I really needed to know about your blind faith in Apple, and your feelings for Windows. I'm sure you attend Apple store openings and queue for the high-fives and woot-woots.

jamesbrennan 14y ago

Great article. I get that some want the hardware upgradeability of MS PCs, but your can't do anything to Windows because its closed source. I buy Macs because I get the benefits of both a polished and (somewhat) open source operating system - not to mention its Unix. Also, in Apple hardware you actually know what you're getting - the majority of it is Intel. With other manufacturers unless you custom build your machine, its hard to know what you're actually getting inside beyond the specs on paper.

ezolotko 14y ago

It is especially sad to read such an article after the release of iOS 6. Before, it was a bit rude, biased and all, but now I feel it cannot be justified anymore.

corporalagumbo 14y ago
What are you trying to imply? That criticisms of Microsoft's retail efforts are no longer valid because Apple made a mistake with Maps?
- ezolotko 14y ago
  Not exactly. I personally suffer from how the AppStore iOS application is made. Then the maps. The quality of many details is lost. After such obvious defects, it is hard to be in position to be extravagant and rude. The love is gone.

mrich 14y ago

The pitches were aggressive, fast-paced, and competitively defensive: they often mentioned “other tablets” and didn’t let me forget which features were “not available on any other tablet”. This sounds like a description of the iPad mini keynote.

randomchars 14y ago
My thoughts exactly.

nnq 14y ago

"It feels too much like using a Windows PC" ...bingo! That's the point, Windows 7 and 8 offer great desktop experiences and having "one system to rule them all" is the selling point ...though I'd rather have an x86 version of the tablet with the ability to use exactly the same software since the type cover is basically a usable keyboard ...hope Intel does some magic with ultra low power x86 chips soon

lifeisstillgood 14y ago

If the alternate universe is one where "you can expand and alter even if it sucks" then can I boot BSD on surface?

radicalbyte 14y ago

Am I the only one who finds this blind following of a specific platform all rather childish?* Platform zealotry is the domain of children, the feeble minded and host of shills who feed on the above two groups (and the platform holder's marketing budgets). * Rhetorical question (I expect that most HNers agree).

davidpayne11 14y ago

You need some credibility before you write articles about huge corporations that have achieved something. Atleast you must be somewhere near the top of the hierarchy where your subject is, to understand fully about them, so you can even consider writing about them. I fail to see how a guy with an app on an Appstore can think he is credible enough to write about a huge corporation that has taken risks he wouldn't even imagine taking himself and has had first hand experience and information about the market better than this guy. Microsoft is the one that makes the marketplace and Marco is just someone who submits his apps there. That's the difference in their positions in the hierarchy. What a shitty article.

corporalagumbo 14y ago
He walked into a store and hated it. For any company that cares about success he is credible.
wiredzen 14y ago
So, in order to have an opinion, one must have credibility? Credibility in whose eyes? Yours? Mine? This is, in my opinion, an utterly ridiculous comment in it its elitist and exclusionary tone. Are but a dog on a leash? I ask because you've basically just stated that corporations are beyond criticism from individuals. So, apparently we should all be corporate zombies like you, just toeing the line, never questioning... Yes, that is much better for the world. The irony is that all the people hacking on Marco for giving his opinion are doing exactly the same thing right here. So let me get this straight - as long as you (or anybody) agrees with a stated opinion, then that opinion should be allowed to exist, praised even. But once you disagree with that opinion then you will come up with countless reasons why that opinion should be removed. Hypocrite.

sam1799 14y ago

After reading this article I once again realized why I'll never even think about buying an Apple product. It seems using Apple products turn people into arrogant self-righteous snobs. Sorry, but I don't want to become one of "them". I'm happy with my Surface and other Microsoft products.

myspy 14y ago

I don't know why it is so hard to understand, that some people want to have the best experience. The iPad does not everything, but at what it does, it tries to be the best. The Surface is trying to be best at everything, but that creates so many trade-offs, it drags down the user experience. I left Win XP, and Windows 7 did not make me come back, because there are so many things that lack decision making in leaving features out rather than putting everything in. Metro is a step in the right direction, but it needs more finish. A computer should help you, and guide you to achieve a goal. A Win PC usually needs a lot of work to bend him in a way which enables you to do your task. And I have enough of that. Why do I need experts in an Office program? Why not making the Office program so intuitive, that it is super easy to create a set of documents? Why not cutting unnecessary features out? A Metro version of Office, which does that, wouldn't that be great? Furthermore, I don't want to tinker, I don't want to dig through five layers of settings. I want to see the IT world going on. And Windows was not really helping in pushing the world forward in the last decade. Apple did. That's why some of the praise and "fanboism" is justified. Let's see who leads the next decade, but have an open mind and acknowledge the fact that people like Marco, Gruber, or MG have an idea of what they are talking about. They give credit where credit is due. But MS has to do a lot more to earn that credit. Maybe they have to cut some things out of the Metro side and go dual platform. It will help to make Metro something that pushes forward the whole industry. When a lot of people are used to Win 8, maybe it's a good thing to go separate ways with Win 9. The "professionals" will use their desktop and the rest is used to Metro and maybe they will see how it excels the desktop version with ease of use.

kmfrk 14y ago

Glad to see he went in there with an open mind.

bornhuetter 14y ago

This is just pure trollbait. It's disappointing to see it on HN, as it doesn't provoke any useful discussion whatsoever.

smackfu 14y ago

This is pretty much the same insufferable stuff he goes into when he talks about Microsoft on his podcast. A general ignorance because he never uses the stuff (except long wnough to look for flaws) but that doesn't stop him from being an expert in his mind. I just hit the two minute skip button until I get to the Apple topics where I think he has informed opinions.

Magenta 14y ago
..but he used Microsoft products, 8 years ago! Doesn't that make him an expert on all things Microsoft?

olgeni 14y ago

Of course, Apple clearly offers the best design, performance, user experience, documentation, reliability, and overall quality. (pause) Can I have my UIGlassButton now? Even Genius-blue-only would be a start.

underwater 14y ago

So apparently the stores are too much like Apple's, but the tablet is not similar enough. The one to one feature comparison to the iPad is silly. The surface is not trying to be a carbon copy. Features like retina display come with trade offs in power, speed and cost that were obviously not worth the trade off. It seems that ever since Apple raised the issue pixels have gone from being something few ever thought about to being physically painful to consumer's eyeballs. There were a few factual inaccuracies in Marco's post. The touch keyboard does allow you to rest your fingers on the surface. It's smart enought to recognize what is intended to be an actual keystroke. Rotating the screen does show a transition too; the screen shrinks, fades and expands.