4 ms·

You can do this for much cheaper - all four of your tires are broadcasting a unique ID to report tire pressure, the radio to pick it up is cheap (because cars),

by luma 8mo ago

You can do this for much cheaper - all four of your tires are broadcasting a unique ID to report tire pressure, the radio to pick it up is cheap (because cars), and TPMS has no facility to randomize or otherwise secure this.

spockz 8mo ago
Not all cars have active TPMS. my Volvo xc90 had them but in later models they switched back to passive ones. So it is not even a given for higher end models.
- ssl-3 8mo ago
  That's not quite the end of the road, though: The tires themselves often have RFID tags embedded. https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/ https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/
  - m-s-y 8mo ago
    much harder to read rfid at a distance
    - ssl-3 8mo ago
      It is. My read through this document suggests that the maximum usable range may be as far as 5 meters, or as little as 1 meter: https://rfid.michelin.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/dataSheet-TireTag-muRata.pdf https://rfid.michelin.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/dataShe... That's not as far as BLE or TPMS can work at, but it's not exactly like the NFC arrangement in a credit card, either. 5 meters is enough for a motivated attacker to do some undetected bulk data collection.
Gigachad 8mo ago
It’s actually even easier, your car has a plate on the front with a unique ID that a camera scans, often to automatically track your park time for ticketing. I can’t really care about obscure Bluetooth tracking when every business has CCTV doing facial recognition.
- wolvoleo 8mo ago
  Yeah exactly, with a car I would no longer be expecting any type of privacy, sadly. Here in Holland we must even have a mobile phone module in every car so it can call the emergencies in case of a crash.
  - sneak 8mo ago
    It’s all of the EU. It’s literally illegal to sell new cars without a radio transceiver in them.
    - userbinator 8mo ago
      But is it illegal to personally disable it?
      - ThePowerOfFuet 8mo ago
        Nope.
      - ranger_danger 8mo ago
        No but it often involves voiding warranty and/or labor-intensive, really annoying work to access something you can disable.
        ProllyInfamous 8mo ago
        On Toyotas, you simply remove a fuse [which can be re-installed].
        ranger_danger 8mo ago
        I can assure you this is not the case with all Toyota models or even most. It's often integrated into the radio instead of a separate module, or simply not on a dedicated fuse, but sometimes it is. Disabling it can also lose other features of the car such as navigation, remote start, the Bluetooth mic, or the mandatory eCall feature if you're in the EU. https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/wiring-diagram-for-disabling-dcm-functionality.1787352/ https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/wiring-diagram-for-disa... https://www.tundras.com/threads/dcm-how-to-remove-completly-to-stop-toyota-collecting-data.157659/ https://www.tundras.com/threads/dcm-how-to-remove-completly-... https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/permanently-disable-telemetry-data-transmission-from-16-200s.1347480/ https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/permanently-disable-telemet... https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/disabling-the-dcm-in-my-2023-corolla-le.1748448/ https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/disabling-the-dcm-in-my...
stirfish 8mo ago
I've had trouble reading these from more than a few feet away, but I concede that I have no idea what I'm doing
everdrive 8mo ago
I believe that every morning someone in the tech industry wakes up and devises a new place to cram some sort of radio. And it's appealing enough the the unwashed masses such that it becomes widely adopted and then unavoidable. I don't want TPMS in my tires. It's not as if checking tire pressure is difficult. No one will consider moving away from TPMS. You'll only hear technologists say "yes, but we could improve the standard! Perhaps encrypt it." They only know how to solve technological problems with more technology.

by luma 8mo ago

spockz 8mo ago

Not all cars have active TPMS. my Volvo xc90 had them but in later models they switched back to passive ones. So it is not even a given for higher end models.

ssl-3 8mo ago
That's not quite the end of the road, though: The tires themselves often have RFID tags embedded. https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/ https://rfid.michelin.com/what-is-rfid/
- m-s-y 8mo ago
  much harder to read rfid at a distance
  - ssl-3 8mo ago
    It is. My read through this document suggests that the maximum usable range may be as far as 5 meters, or as little as 1 meter: https://rfid.michelin.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/dataSheet-TireTag-muRata.pdf https://rfid.michelin.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/dataShe... That's not as far as BLE or TPMS can work at, but it's not exactly like the NFC arrangement in a credit card, either. 5 meters is enough for a motivated attacker to do some undetected bulk data collection.

Gigachad 8mo ago

It’s actually even easier, your car has a plate on the front with a unique ID that a camera scans, often to automatically track your park time for ticketing. I can’t really care about obscure Bluetooth tracking when every business has CCTV doing facial recognition.

wolvoleo 8mo ago
Yeah exactly, with a car I would no longer be expecting any type of privacy, sadly. Here in Holland we must even have a mobile phone module in every car so it can call the emergencies in case of a crash.
- sneak 8mo ago
  It’s all of the EU. It’s literally illegal to sell new cars without a radio transceiver in them.
  - userbinator 8mo ago
    But is it illegal to personally disable it?
    - ThePowerOfFuet 8mo ago
      Nope.
    - ranger_danger 8mo ago
      No but it often involves voiding warranty and/or labor-intensive, really annoying work to access something you can disable.
      - ProllyInfamous 8mo ago
        On Toyotas, you simply remove a fuse [which can be re-installed].
        ranger_danger 8mo ago
        I can assure you this is not the case with all Toyota models or even most. It's often integrated into the radio instead of a separate module, or simply not on a dedicated fuse, but sometimes it is. Disabling it can also lose other features of the car such as navigation, remote start, the Bluetooth mic, or the mandatory eCall feature if you're in the EU. https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/wiring-diagram-for-disabling-dcm-functionality.1787352/ https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/wiring-diagram-for-disa... https://www.tundras.com/threads/dcm-how-to-remove-completly-to-stop-toyota-collecting-data.157659/ https://www.tundras.com/threads/dcm-how-to-remove-completly-... https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/permanently-disable-telemetry-data-transmission-from-16-200s.1347480/ https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/permanently-disable-telemet... https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/disabling-the-dcm-in-my-2023-corolla-le.1748448/ https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/disabling-the-dcm-in-my...

stirfish 8mo ago

I've had trouble reading these from more than a few feet away, but I concede that I have no idea what I'm doing

everdrive 8mo ago

I believe that every morning someone in the tech industry wakes up and devises a new place to cram some sort of radio. And it's appealing enough the the unwashed masses such that it becomes widely adopted and then unavoidable. I don't want TPMS in my tires. It's not as if checking tire pressure is difficult. No one will consider moving away from TPMS. You'll only hear technologists say "yes, but we could improve the standard! Perhaps encrypt it." They only know how to solve technological problems with more technology.