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Losing your job sucks. Typically, there is no silver lining. I’ve been laid off 2x and those were both among the worst experiences of my life. > rawness is an

by JackFr 8mo ago

Losing your job sucks. Typically, there is no silver lining. I’ve been laid off 2x and those were both among the worst experiences of my life. > rawness is an excellent time to reflect on what went right and what I could've done better, before the brain starts coping with the trauma of the event in question. But that isn’t what he’s done in the essay. I don’t think he’s doing an honest assessment of what he could have done better. Rather there’s a thin patina of “I should have realized . . .” and then a litany of complaints about the company. And the complaints about the company are the same usual ones that everyone makes. I HAVE BEEN THERE. I HAVE MADE THEM TOO. But I would advise, in six months in a year when you’re in a new job, to take a HARD look at yourself. Try not to cast people as villains and thus can be a learning experience.

K0balt 8mo ago
If losing your job is traumatic, I’d suggest reviewing your relationship with employers and employment in general. It’s not a stable situation, and there is no social aspect in reality. It’s an accounting decision. Employment is almost always exploitation on one side or the other, with the best case being mutual exploitation. Employment inherently involves paying less for your work than it is worth. In an ideal situation, in exchange you get access to tools at a cost less than they cost to access on your own. It’s inherently violent on some level. Ending violence shouldn’t be traumatic.
- bluecheese452 8mo ago
  That is nice but my bills still need to be paid.
  - K0balt 8mo ago
    I’ve been on both sides of the table for decades. I try to find ways to bind incentives from either side so that they are better aligned, but it’s always exploitative in one way or another. It’s just suboptimal. Perhaps employee owned businesses are the solution.
    - imtringued 8mo ago
      The solutions will always be the same: demurrage currency and land value taxes.
      - K0balt 8mo ago
        Perhaps. But that also erodes the stability islands that motivate people to be hyper productive, and encourages investment in external economies, starving the local economy. So I don’t think those work, or at least I’ve never seen a working example. Costco, on the other hand, and many other employee owned cooperatives do seem to align incentives better than most situations without discouraging investment. demurrage currency otoh is probably worth looking closer at IF a way to build an equitable two-tiered system could be developed. Perhaps corporate money would be demurrage , with personal money that has passed through a tax window stable.
        keybored 8mo ago
        You want it both ways? It both is exploitation and motivates “people” (?) to be hyper productive? Those people just need to violently exploit people to be “hyper productive”? They can’t be “hyper productive” by way of their own bodies? But it’s fine by you. Parasites are after all part of the natural world.
- Throaway1982 8mo ago
  Being told you no longer have the ability to provide for yourself is also violence, especially when the onus on finding a new means of provision is 100% up to you.
  - K0balt 8mo ago
    Clearly. And it’s also the 100 percent predictable outcome of every single employment situation. Employment is a stopgap measure on the road to something more stable. Reaching high enough salaries so that you can coast 4-5 years between jobs is also an option, but at that point it’s not regular employment in any sense of the word, when your lawyer is drawing up your severance package.
    - Throaway1982 8mo ago
      ok?
- jtbayly 8mo ago
  I challenge you to think about the implications of if you were right. If employment is violence, we should end it. But then almost everybody would die. If paying for labor is violence, paying for a product is violence. Nobody should be allowed to buy or sell (or trade). But then everybody would die. In a good economic transaction, whether purchase of product or labor, both parties end up happy with what they got out of the transaction. What is your time not working worth to you? If that value is higher than the money you get paid for your time and labor, then quit. Nobody is forcing you to work. But then, if you don’t have anything to eat, the value of your empty time might decrease in your own judgment. You might think, actually, I’ve got an excess of time and energy, and I’ve got a need for money and food. I think it’s a pretty sweet deal to be able to work and get paid. Not violence.
  - keybored 8mo ago
    That employment is exploitation is evidenced by profits. Employment is a commodity. Any business expects to get more value out of a commodity. Not to break even. > If employment is violence, we should end it. But then almost everybody would die. Everyone would die? Are you assuming that employment gets eliminated and nothing is replaced by it? Anyone who is against the employment relation wants something different. Not something farcical like voluntary self-elimination.
    - JackFr 8mo ago
      Can you accept that two parties can make an exchange that leaves them both better off? If you can’t accept that, there’s no real point in any further discussion.
      - K0balt 8mo ago
        Of course! I don’t think I said it couldn’t be mutual.
      - keybored 8mo ago
        > Can you accept that two parties can make an exchange that leaves them both better off? Yes. > If you can’t accept that, there’s no real point in any further discussion. There’s a lot of assumptions packed in to this statement. But you can be the arbiter of the Overton Window. I know that I am swearing in church.
- locknitpicker 8mo ago
  > If losing your job is traumatic, I’d suggest reviewing your relationship with employers and employment in general. This is a rather clueless and ignorant opinion to have. Your job is what pays your mortgage/rent and your bills, and it's a key factor in where you chose to live. Your job has a fundamental impact in your personal life and your family's experience. Once you are fired, odds are your life will change radically. And not on your terms. You should refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about. In occasions such as these, you are clearly both talking out of sheer ignorance and downplaying someone else's traumatic experiences.
  - keybored 8mo ago
    I think they are saying you should look at the employment relationship more generally and see that this holds across the board. It’s more like a woman breaking up with a man and someone else says “realize that all men are pigs”.
    - hgomersall 8mo ago
      That's an interesting parallel. I suspect the point is that entering all relationships with the expectation that all men are pigs carries certain benefits, but then it also likely has costs, such as an inability to form truly deep connections.
      - keybored 8mo ago
        Many societies are deeply partiarchal and misogynistic. Men can mistreat their wives with impunity. So is the solution to eschew men? Not if your somehow healthy existence is predicated on having a male companion. Still there might be private spaces to speak frankly about such a state of affairs.
  - K0balt 8mo ago
    Perhaps it is unwise to leave your wellbeing and security entirely up to someone who has no incentive to care about the outcome? But, idk, you do you.
  - 8mo ago
- roarcher 8mo ago
  > If losing your job is traumatic, I’d suggest reviewing your relationship with employers and employment in general. Should I also review my relationship with my need to eat and have a roof over my head?
  - K0balt 8mo ago
    Being dependent to that degree on something you have ultimately no control over is the problem. In that situation, I am always hedging my bets and preparing for the worst. Because it’s not if but when. I work like hell to get out of those situations and into a situation where I am more in control of my destiny. That people get lulled into a sense of security in typical employment situations is to me extremely bad judgment on their part, if not outright denial of the reality of their situation. The only thing sure about employment is that it will end.
jaybrendansmith 8mo ago
Disagree. I lost my job once from a toxic workplace. I did not realize at the time, but it really was, because of poor leadership. I immediately got a job at an excellent place that set up my future career. Had I not been laid off, I would have missed this opportunity. Every change is an opportunity, whether instigated by you or not. My advice now to my young self: Don't stay anywhere if you don't get promoted within 2-3 years UNLESS the place has an excellent culture.

by JackFr 8mo ago

K0balt 8mo ago

If losing your job is traumatic, I’d suggest reviewing your relationship with employers and employment in general. It’s not a stable situation, and there is no social aspect in reality. It’s an accounting decision. Employment is almost always exploitation on one side or the other, with the best case being mutual exploitation. Employment inherently involves paying less for your work than it is worth. In an ideal situation, in exchange you get access to tools at a cost less than they cost to access on your own. It’s inherently violent on some level. Ending violence shouldn’t be traumatic.

bluecheese452 8mo ago
That is nice but my bills still need to be paid.
- K0balt 8mo ago
  I’ve been on both sides of the table for decades. I try to find ways to bind incentives from either side so that they are better aligned, but it’s always exploitative in one way or another. It’s just suboptimal. Perhaps employee owned businesses are the solution.
  - imtringued 8mo ago
    The solutions will always be the same: demurrage currency and land value taxes.
    - K0balt 8mo ago
      Perhaps. But that also erodes the stability islands that motivate people to be hyper productive, and encourages investment in external economies, starving the local economy. So I don’t think those work, or at least I’ve never seen a working example. Costco, on the other hand, and many other employee owned cooperatives do seem to align incentives better than most situations without discouraging investment. demurrage currency otoh is probably worth looking closer at IF a way to build an equitable two-tiered system could be developed. Perhaps corporate money would be demurrage , with personal money that has passed through a tax window stable.
      - keybored 8mo ago
        You want it both ways? It both is exploitation and motivates “people” (?) to be hyper productive? Those people just need to violently exploit people to be “hyper productive”? They can’t be “hyper productive” by way of their own bodies? But it’s fine by you. Parasites are after all part of the natural world.
Throaway1982 8mo ago
Being told you no longer have the ability to provide for yourself is also violence, especially when the onus on finding a new means of provision is 100% up to you.
- K0balt 8mo ago
  Clearly. And it’s also the 100 percent predictable outcome of every single employment situation. Employment is a stopgap measure on the road to something more stable. Reaching high enough salaries so that you can coast 4-5 years between jobs is also an option, but at that point it’s not regular employment in any sense of the word, when your lawyer is drawing up your severance package.
  - Throaway1982 8mo ago
    ok?
jtbayly 8mo ago
I challenge you to think about the implications of if you were right. If employment is violence, we should end it. But then almost everybody would die. If paying for labor is violence, paying for a product is violence. Nobody should be allowed to buy or sell (or trade). But then everybody would die. In a good economic transaction, whether purchase of product or labor, both parties end up happy with what they got out of the transaction. What is your time not working worth to you? If that value is higher than the money you get paid for your time and labor, then quit. Nobody is forcing you to work. But then, if you don’t have anything to eat, the value of your empty time might decrease in your own judgment. You might think, actually, I’ve got an excess of time and energy, and I’ve got a need for money and food. I think it’s a pretty sweet deal to be able to work and get paid. Not violence.
- keybored 8mo ago
  That employment is exploitation is evidenced by profits. Employment is a commodity. Any business expects to get more value out of a commodity. Not to break even. > If employment is violence, we should end it. But then almost everybody would die. Everyone would die? Are you assuming that employment gets eliminated and nothing is replaced by it? Anyone who is against the employment relation wants something different. Not something farcical like voluntary self-elimination.
  - JackFr 8mo ago
    Can you accept that two parties can make an exchange that leaves them both better off? If you can’t accept that, there’s no real point in any further discussion.
    - K0balt 8mo ago
      Of course! I don’t think I said it couldn’t be mutual.
    - keybored 8mo ago
      > Can you accept that two parties can make an exchange that leaves them both better off? Yes. > If you can’t accept that, there’s no real point in any further discussion. There’s a lot of assumptions packed in to this statement. But you can be the arbiter of the Overton Window. I know that I am swearing in church.
locknitpicker 8mo ago
> If losing your job is traumatic, I’d suggest reviewing your relationship with employers and employment in general. This is a rather clueless and ignorant opinion to have. Your job is what pays your mortgage/rent and your bills, and it's a key factor in where you chose to live. Your job has a fundamental impact in your personal life and your family's experience. Once you are fired, odds are your life will change radically. And not on your terms. You should refrain from commenting on things you know nothing about. In occasions such as these, you are clearly both talking out of sheer ignorance and downplaying someone else's traumatic experiences.
- keybored 8mo ago
  I think they are saying you should look at the employment relationship more generally and see that this holds across the board. It’s more like a woman breaking up with a man and someone else says “realize that all men are pigs”.
  - hgomersall 8mo ago
    That's an interesting parallel. I suspect the point is that entering all relationships with the expectation that all men are pigs carries certain benefits, but then it also likely has costs, such as an inability to form truly deep connections.
    - keybored 8mo ago
      Many societies are deeply partiarchal and misogynistic. Men can mistreat their wives with impunity. So is the solution to eschew men? Not if your somehow healthy existence is predicated on having a male companion. Still there might be private spaces to speak frankly about such a state of affairs.
- K0balt 8mo ago
  Perhaps it is unwise to leave your wellbeing and security entirely up to someone who has no incentive to care about the outcome? But, idk, you do you.
- 8mo ago
roarcher 8mo ago
> If losing your job is traumatic, I’d suggest reviewing your relationship with employers and employment in general. Should I also review my relationship with my need to eat and have a roof over my head?
- K0balt 8mo ago
  Being dependent to that degree on something you have ultimately no control over is the problem. In that situation, I am always hedging my bets and preparing for the worst. Because it’s not if but when. I work like hell to get out of those situations and into a situation where I am more in control of my destiny. That people get lulled into a sense of security in typical employment situations is to me extremely bad judgment on their part, if not outright denial of the reality of their situation. The only thing sure about employment is that it will end.

jaybrendansmith 8mo ago

Disagree. I lost my job once from a toxic workplace. I did not realize at the time, but it really was, because of poor leadership. I immediately got a job at an excellent place that set up my future career. Had I not been laid off, I would have missed this opportunity. Every change is an opportunity, whether instigated by you or not. My advice now to my young self: Don't stay anywhere if you don't get promoted within 2-3 years UNLESS the place has an excellent culture.