5 ms·

DBASE on the Kaypro II

99 points by TMWNN 8mo ago

ludsan 8mo ago
In a moment of serendipity, I was about 30 minutes into watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYU3CQomE5M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYU3CQomE5M I had memories of Foxpro and Clipper on my mind, when I found myself in this rabbit hole.
- ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
  Author here. My timing is impeccable!
  - Pinus 8mo ago
    Thanks for writing this! I remember reading about dBase II as a kid, and now that I’m (much!) older and actually using some of the databases of today, I have sometimes wondered what those older personal-computer databases looked like.
- wazoox 8mo ago
  Yeah me too, actually it wasn't deadly boring like expected, the acting is pretty good.
bruce511 8mo ago
>> The prompt starts at the first field and <RETURN> (not <TAB> !) moves to the next. This is hilarious to me, because times have certainly changed. When we first started shipping Windows software the big complaint from users was the use of Tab to switch fields, while Return triggered the default button (usually Save or Close). The change, for users used to DOS was painful - not least when capturing numbers as the numeric key pad has Enter not Tab. Software developers either stood firm, convincing customers to learn Tab, or caved and aliased the Enter key to the Tab key. Even today I still find that option here and there in Software that's been around a while...
- ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
  Author here, and thanks for reading. I'm glad to hear stories from a developer POV about those days. It's interesting uncovering subtle interface changes as I investigate various applications. It makes sense to me to not use Return for fields, especially when fields could gradually accommodate longer and longer blocks of text. Being able to naturally type multiple paragraphs, say for a "Notes" field in a database, would make sense.
  - deleted 8mo ago
    [deleted]
  - bruce511 8mo ago
    Yes, it makes sense when viewed like that, and was probably a necessary change. DOS chose Enter though because in those days mist data capture was numbers. Lots and lots of numbers. Data capturers could track the left hand down the column (so keeping place on yhe paper) any type with the right. Enter is right there in the keypad so only one hand needed. Switching to Tab means 2 hands needed on the keyboard, so difficult to keep track on the paper. Typically also, on DOS screens there was very little multi-line entry. Addresses were multiple entry fields, and so on. Tab was pretty much not used (outside of word processing). If I went back now, to design the standard keyboard, I'd add dedicated "Next" and "Previous" buttons on the numeric keypad. No need for Enter there. But that's design with a lot of hindsight...
- Someone 8mo ago
  > not least when capturing numbers as the numeric key pad has Enter not Tab. And “Enter” isn’t “Return”. I don’t know how the PC and PC software did it, but the Mac, when it got a numeric keypad, discriminated between return (on the alphanumeric keyboard) and enter (on the keypad), and software did discriminate between the two.
  - pjc50 8mo ago
    On the PC you can distinguish between the two of them in "raw" mode, but almost all keyboard maps flatten them both into the same key. The only time I've seen them mapped differently is games.
gareth5851 8mo ago
Love this
- ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
  Author here. Thank you :)
JSR_FDED 8mo ago
This is awesome. Loved the training video as well. It’s kind of cool to see people putting in the effort to learn 30 commands and becoming masters of their own destiny. I guess it’s the same sense of mastery that Excel users have today. What’s the dBase II/III equivalent today?
- ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
  Thank you, I'm glad you liked the article. Hopefully someone more learned than myself about modern database programming will chime in. I'm not sure what current system offers both the database and development features in such a seamless package. That said, on the Mastodon post for this article, I was told, "Learning dBASE isn't for naught" and was directed to https://xharbour.org/ https://xharbour.org/ as a modern dBASE/Clipper implementation. (haven't had a chance to try it yet, personally)
- mayama 8mo ago
  > What’s the dBase II/III equivalent today? Salesforce, firebase or Supabase etc., but, all are SAAS platforms. Not sure if there is any other platform where you can do database and applications that you can host yourself.
  - mercurialuser 8mo ago
    Have a look at harbour project on github. It compiles Clipper code to be run on several different platforms, in text and gui mode (also with Qt bindings) and mow there are several frameworks for web development
- shrubble 8mo ago
  SQLite; or MySQL with PHP or any other simple programming framework.
- pjmlp 8mo ago
  Access, FileMaker are still around, or if you going SaaS, something like Airtable, I guess.
slim 8mo ago
"Author here" is the new "You're absolutely right"
- ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
  Since someone else posted my article instead of me, I felt compelled to clarify who I am. Just trying to navigate social media waters to the best of my ability.
antonvs 8mo ago
Love the guy trying to crush his red telephone handset in the CP/M-86 ad. I assume he’s just been told he has to reenter the Kermit assembler code and start again.
kryptonomist 8mo ago
According to users of the Kaypro II from that time, it was a very robust machine. It was even used on the 1984 Paris Dakar edition.
- jslaby 8mo ago
  And the Kaypro IV came out with the cool dark look.
  - ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
    Looking around pictures, the IV seems to have a couple of variations. I like this one: https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NMAH-NMAH2000-04109&max=1000 https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NMAH-NMAH2000-0410... I'm not keen on this one: http://www.mrmartinweb.com/images/computer/kaypro488.jpg http://www.mrmartinweb.com/images/computer/kaypro488.jpg
startaq 8mo ago
> MAME has no printer emulation, which I like to use for a more holistic retro computing experience. That's wrong. I haven't tried it with the Kaypro emulation, but here's a video showing the mc68000 computer printing to an emulated Epson ActionPrinter 2000: https://streamable.com/rvenyx https://streamable.com/rvenyx It's also possible to print to a text file.
- ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
  Oh wow, you're right! I see now that under MAME options there is a "Slot Devices" that has a printer selection option. I overlooked that I guess, thinking it was unrelated to printing. I'll need to dig into CP/M-80 configuration options more and see if I can get it talking to the emulated printer. Thank you very much for the heads-up!
pjmlp 8mo ago
My introduction to databases was via dBASE III Plus, shortly followed by Clipper Summer '87, and Clipper 5.x (already OOP and some C++ like constructs). The change to VB/Access and SQL later on took some mind shifting as the concepts on how to design a database are quite different. Additionally it is quite remarkable the productivity that xBase offered, for a constrained environment like MS-DOS, in an automatic memory managed language, with AOT compilation (when using Clipper, FoxPro and co).
- dardeaup 8mo ago
  I had a very similar path starting with dBASE III Plus. As you say the productivity it (xBASE/FoxPro/Clipper) offered was remarkable. One of the tools that I really wish I had was a FoxPro/Clipper compiler that took a subset of the language (general purpose stuff and screen functionality) and compiled it to either C or Go with ncurses. Who knows, I might have AI help me build one.
  - mercurialuser 8mo ago
    Look for Harbour project on github
- rbanffy 8mo ago
  > The change to VB/Access and SQL Brazil had a vibrant and omnipresent Clipper developer ecosystem until VB and Access ate their lunch. This also made a lot of businesses adopt windows.
- mamcx 8mo ago
  > Additionally it is quite remarkable the productivity that xBase offered Yeah, is still unmatched. My dream is to revive the spirit of it (https://tablam.org https://tablam.org) and looking for partners or funding!
sehugg 8mo ago
I note that Clarion is still being developed, version 12 was released last year. I remember fondly using its screen designer to create drop-shadowed dialogs.
astrashe2 8mo ago
It wasn't quite as old, but there was an old MS DOS database system called Cosmos Revelation that was sort of a proto-nosql/graph database used keys and values for records, with the values being stored in long strings that contained field separators, and support for multiple values of the same time in a single field of a record. It used a language called R/BASIC that had library routines to help you work with the data structure. This software is my retro computing white whale, I've never been able to find it. But I think it's evolved into a product called OpenInsight, by Revelation Software, which still exists.
- ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
  Author here. You've intrigued me with this product, to say the least. As I get more experience with the productivity classics under my belt, I absolutely intend to branch out into titles like you've mentioned. That's assuming I can find the stuff though!
crandyboy 8mo ago
I have the source code to fox pro on a tape in my garage someplace
- ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
  Were you a developer for FoxPro?
sagacity 8mo ago
This blog is so much fun to read. Super well written and researched, and it definitely scratches an itch for me. A lot of these tools seemed boring and mysterious to me when I was growing up, but seeing that these tools were actually already really powerful considering the hardware they're running on is very interesting.
- ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
  Author here. Thank you very much for your very kind words. I'm quite happy to hear that I was able to make reading about a database fun; "make it not boring" is my personal goal with the posts. It's nice to have confirmation I've achieved that for someone. I hope I can continue to build something you enjoy.
cheema33 8mo ago
It was a fun read. Thank you for sharing! dbase IV was popular when I was in college. I never used it. But instead cut my teeth on Paradox and later SolidDB which supported SQL 92. I was blown away from SolidDB in the early 90s. So much power in such a tiny database product at that time.

99 points by TMWNN 8mo ago

In a moment of serendipity, I was about 30 minutes into watching this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYU3CQomE5M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYU3CQomE5M I had memories of Foxpro and Clipper on my mind, when I found myself in this rabbit hole.

ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
Author here. My timing is impeccable!
- Pinus 8mo ago
  Thanks for writing this! I remember reading about dBase II as a kid, and now that I’m (much!) older and actually using some of the databases of today, I have sometimes wondered what those older personal-computer databases looked like.
wazoox 8mo ago
Yeah me too, actually it wasn't deadly boring like expected, the acting is pretty good.

bruce511 8mo ago

>> The prompt starts at the first field and <RETURN> (not <TAB> !) moves to the next. This is hilarious to me, because times have certainly changed. When we first started shipping Windows software the big complaint from users was the use of Tab to switch fields, while Return triggered the default button (usually Save or Close). The change, for users used to DOS was painful - not least when capturing numbers as the numeric key pad has Enter not Tab. Software developers either stood firm, convincing customers to learn Tab, or caved and aliased the Enter key to the Tab key. Even today I still find that option here and there in Software that's been around a while...

ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
Author here, and thanks for reading. I'm glad to hear stories from a developer POV about those days. It's interesting uncovering subtle interface changes as I investigate various applications. It makes sense to me to not use Return for fields, especially when fields could gradually accommodate longer and longer blocks of text. Being able to naturally type multiple paragraphs, say for a "Notes" field in a database, would make sense.
- deleted 8mo ago
  [deleted]
- bruce511 8mo ago
  Yes, it makes sense when viewed like that, and was probably a necessary change. DOS chose Enter though because in those days mist data capture was numbers. Lots and lots of numbers. Data capturers could track the left hand down the column (so keeping place on yhe paper) any type with the right. Enter is right there in the keypad so only one hand needed. Switching to Tab means 2 hands needed on the keyboard, so difficult to keep track on the paper. Typically also, on DOS screens there was very little multi-line entry. Addresses were multiple entry fields, and so on. Tab was pretty much not used (outside of word processing). If I went back now, to design the standard keyboard, I'd add dedicated "Next" and "Previous" buttons on the numeric keypad. No need for Enter there. But that's design with a lot of hindsight...
Someone 8mo ago
> not least when capturing numbers as the numeric key pad has Enter not Tab. And “Enter” isn’t “Return”. I don’t know how the PC and PC software did it, but the Mac, when it got a numeric keypad, discriminated between return (on the alphanumeric keyboard) and enter (on the keypad), and software did discriminate between the two.
- pjc50 8mo ago
  On the PC you can distinguish between the two of them in "raw" mode, but almost all keyboard maps flatten them both into the same key. The only time I've seen them mapped differently is games.

gareth5851 8mo ago

Love this

ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
Author here. Thank you :)

JSR_FDED 8mo ago

This is awesome. Loved the training video as well. It’s kind of cool to see people putting in the effort to learn 30 commands and becoming masters of their own destiny. I guess it’s the same sense of mastery that Excel users have today. What’s the dBase II/III equivalent today?

ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
Thank you, I'm glad you liked the article. Hopefully someone more learned than myself about modern database programming will chime in. I'm not sure what current system offers both the database and development features in such a seamless package. That said, on the Mastodon post for this article, I was told, "Learning dBASE isn't for naught" and was directed to https://xharbour.org/ https://xharbour.org/ as a modern dBASE/Clipper implementation. (haven't had a chance to try it yet, personally)
mayama 8mo ago
> What’s the dBase II/III equivalent today? Salesforce, firebase or Supabase etc., but, all are SAAS platforms. Not sure if there is any other platform where you can do database and applications that you can host yourself.
- mercurialuser 8mo ago
  Have a look at harbour project on github. It compiles Clipper code to be run on several different platforms, in text and gui mode (also with Qt bindings) and mow there are several frameworks for web development
shrubble 8mo ago
SQLite; or MySQL with PHP or any other simple programming framework.
pjmlp 8mo ago
Access, FileMaker are still around, or if you going SaaS, something like Airtable, I guess.

slim 8mo ago

"Author here" is the new "You're absolutely right"

ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
Since someone else posted my article instead of me, I felt compelled to clarify who I am. Just trying to navigate social media waters to the best of my ability.

antonvs 8mo ago

Love the guy trying to crush his red telephone handset in the CP/M-86 ad. I assume he’s just been told he has to reenter the Kermit assembler code and start again.

kryptonomist 8mo ago

According to users of the Kaypro II from that time, it was a very robust machine. It was even used on the 1984 Paris Dakar edition.

jslaby 8mo ago
And the Kaypro IV came out with the cool dark look.
- ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
  Looking around pictures, the IV seems to have a couple of variations. I like this one: https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NMAH-NMAH2000-04109&max=1000 https://ids.si.edu/ids/deliveryService?id=NMAH-NMAH2000-0410... I'm not keen on this one: http://www.mrmartinweb.com/images/computer/kaypro488.jpg http://www.mrmartinweb.com/images/computer/kaypro488.jpg

startaq 8mo ago

> MAME has no printer emulation, which I like to use for a more holistic retro computing experience. That's wrong. I haven't tried it with the Kaypro emulation, but here's a video showing the mc68000 computer printing to an emulated Epson ActionPrinter 2000: https://streamable.com/rvenyx https://streamable.com/rvenyx It's also possible to print to a text file.

ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
Oh wow, you're right! I see now that under MAME options there is a "Slot Devices" that has a printer selection option. I overlooked that I guess, thinking it was unrelated to printing. I'll need to dig into CP/M-80 configuration options more and see if I can get it talking to the emulated printer. Thank you very much for the heads-up!

pjmlp 8mo ago

My introduction to databases was via dBASE III Plus, shortly followed by Clipper Summer '87, and Clipper 5.x (already OOP and some C++ like constructs). The change to VB/Access and SQL later on took some mind shifting as the concepts on how to design a database are quite different. Additionally it is quite remarkable the productivity that xBase offered, for a constrained environment like MS-DOS, in an automatic memory managed language, with AOT compilation (when using Clipper, FoxPro and co).

dardeaup 8mo ago
I had a very similar path starting with dBASE III Plus. As you say the productivity it (xBASE/FoxPro/Clipper) offered was remarkable. One of the tools that I really wish I had was a FoxPro/Clipper compiler that took a subset of the language (general purpose stuff and screen functionality) and compiled it to either C or Go with ncurses. Who knows, I might have AI help me build one.
- mercurialuser 8mo ago
  Look for Harbour project on github
rbanffy 8mo ago
> The change to VB/Access and SQL Brazil had a vibrant and omnipresent Clipper developer ecosystem until VB and Access ate their lunch. This also made a lot of businesses adopt windows.
mamcx 8mo ago
> Additionally it is quite remarkable the productivity that xBase offered Yeah, is still unmatched. My dream is to revive the spirit of it (https://tablam.org https://tablam.org) and looking for partners or funding!

sehugg 8mo ago

I note that Clarion is still being developed, version 12 was released last year. I remember fondly using its screen designer to create drop-shadowed dialogs.

astrashe2 8mo ago

It wasn't quite as old, but there was an old MS DOS database system called Cosmos Revelation that was sort of a proto-nosql/graph database used keys and values for records, with the values being stored in long strings that contained field separators, and support for multiple values of the same time in a single field of a record. It used a language called R/BASIC that had library routines to help you work with the data structure. This software is my retro computing white whale, I've never been able to find it. But I think it's evolved into a product called OpenInsight, by Revelation Software, which still exists.

ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
Author here. You've intrigued me with this product, to say the least. As I get more experience with the productivity classics under my belt, I absolutely intend to branch out into titles like you've mentioned. That's assuming I can find the stuff though!

crandyboy 8mo ago

I have the source code to fox pro on a tape in my garage someplace

ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
Were you a developer for FoxPro?

sagacity 8mo ago

This blog is so much fun to read. Super well written and researched, and it definitely scratches an itch for me. A lot of these tools seemed boring and mysterious to me when I was growing up, but seeing that these tools were actually already really powerful considering the hardware they're running on is very interesting.

ChristopherDrum 8mo ago
Author here. Thank you very much for your very kind words. I'm quite happy to hear that I was able to make reading about a database fun; "make it not boring" is my personal goal with the posts. It's nice to have confirmation I've achieved that for someone. I hope I can continue to build something you enjoy.

cheema33 8mo ago

It was a fun read. Thank you for sharing! dbase IV was popular when I was in college. I never used it. But instead cut my teeth on Paradox and later SolidDB which supported SQL 92. I was blown away from SolidDB in the early 90s. So much power in such a tiny database product at that time.