5 ms·

I think it's probably a little bit harder than you think with all the rules and regulations out there. I would highly encourage anybody who's remotely intereste

by havaloc 8mo ago

I think it's probably a little bit harder than you think with all the rules and regulations out there. I would highly encourage anybody who's remotely interested, listen to the Acquired podcast episode regarding Visa. It's actually quite fascinating how it was started. You may balk at the length, but the whole thing had me interested. https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/visa https://www.acquired.fm/episodes/visa

unmole 8mo ago
India built RuPay, China built UnionPay. There's no reason why Europe can't do the same.
- psychoslave 8mo ago
  France still has CB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group
  - Beretta_Vexee 8mo ago
    There are equivalents in several European countries. The problem is that these networks are national and not European, let alone global. National banking players did not want to give up their turf. The European Union had to twist their arms to get them to agree to SEPA transfers, instant transfers, etc. If banking players cannot agree, then regulation (or the threat of regulation) must be used.
    - psychoslave 8mo ago
      Well, yes, but it happens that European directives do happen and are actually followed or enforced. Without laws there would be no bank in the first place, neither at national or paneuropean level.
  - clownpenis_fart 8mo ago
    CB actually have higher security standards than visa. I once worked at a company doing payment card personalization (its the company who turn blank smart cards into finalized cards on behalf of banks. They print the customers names, emboss the account number, and program the chip and the magstrip) Every year they had comprehensive security audits from Visa, Mastercard and Groupe Carte Bleue. One guy there told me that they did the Groupe Carte Bleue audit first, because its the toughest. If they passed it they were sure to pass the others.
- close04 8mo ago
  The most obvious difference being that unlike China or India, Europe (or the EU) is not a single country. This doesn't make things impossible but certainly complicates them.
  - laksjhdlka 8mo ago
    Exactly, now that the internet is ubiquitous, none of the problems with replacing credit card companies like VISA are really technical. They are regulatory, they are political, they are social.
    - jimnotgym 8mo ago
      And before Trump it wasn't worth the aggravation. It wasn't worth the pushback from the US government. Trump sure has moved the needle on that! We used to pay protection money to the US via this. Now we don't get the protection, so we don't need to pay.
    - close04 8mo ago
      > one of the problems with replacing credit card companies like VISA are really technical VISA and Mastercard never resolved major technical problems. It's nothing a bank wouldn't already be able to achieve internally from a technological complexity point of view. They didn't invent any of the technologies, they just navigated the political and regulatory hurdles, then leveraged their position for more. Your comment makes it look like the problems are "just" political or regulatory. These are more often then not the bigger ones.
    - TulliusCicero 8mo ago
      Surely the EU could pull off something similar to what India did with their instant payments program? That system seems to have garnered near-universal praise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface
  - graemep 8mo ago
    The sensible thing would be to do it by currency area - e.g. the Eurozone. Technology and some systems could be shared.
- scotty79 8mo ago
  European countries each have their system. But they do not interoperate. You can't pay with blik in Germany, you can't pay with German debit card in Poland.
  - rudolftheone 8mo ago
    As jacekm mentioned already (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46963497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46963497), Blik has just made a significant step toward interoperability just week ago, see https://www.blik.com/przelewy-na-telefon-w-euro-z-hiszpanii-do-polski-blik-testuje-interoperacyjnosc-z-kolejnymi-europejskimi-systemami-platnosci https://www.blik.com/przelewy-na-telefon-w-euro-z-hiszpanii-...
jsiepkes 8mo ago
In the Netherlands, before VISA, there already was a national debit card standard called PIN [1]. Sure, times have changed and it's probably not super easy, but it's also not going to be super hard. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIN_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIN_(debit_card)
- anal_reactor 8mo ago
  Fun fact: until about a year ago it was not possible to pay using normal debit cards in most Dutch shops, you had to have a local card. I distinctly remember that AH, Vomar and Jumbo would typically reject foreign cards while Lidl and Dirk would typically accept them. Of course there were exceptions, but that was the rule of thumb. Most Dutch people were unaware of the issue (because Dutch cards worked abroad), and those who were, were fully convinced that it's because Dutch system is objectively better (it wasn't, it was just a separate network). Then in like 2024/2025 Visa and Mastercard finally retired their special V-Pay and Maestro brands, and now most terminals in the Netherlands accept most normal cards.
  - dcrazy 8mo ago
    Was V-Pay different from Visa Electron?
- RealityVoid 8mo ago
  I think most people miss that the biggest hurdle is political. Once a political will exists, this system will come to exist.
- wellf 8mo ago
  A card I can tap on a vending machine anywhere in the world. Crypto was probably the hope to compete but that didn't pan out.
hellojimbo 8mo ago
My takeaway from the episode was that its actually really easy to setup up visa, you just need to get the banks, vendors, and card issuers onboard, which should be easy if you're the government
- direwolf20 8mo ago
  You still need to make it, but actually making it is a small fraction of the problem, less than half
themafia 8mo ago
> with all the rules and regulations out there. And who wrote those? Aren't they just another part of the moat? > It's actually quite fascinating how it was started. Visa was founded in 1958 by Bank of America (BofA) as the BankAmericard credit card program.[1] In response to competitor Master Charge (now Mastercard), BofA began to license the BankAmericard program to other financial institutions in 1966.[8] By 1970, BofA gave up direct control of the BankAmericard program, forming a cooperative with the other various BankAmericard issuer banks to take over its management. It was then renamed Visa in 1976. The answer is: "Banks."
anon7000 8mo ago
Sure, it’s hard, but a duopoly is skimming LITERALLY 1-3% off the entire consumer economy for a service that is not that expensive to operate. Additionally, interchange rates are higher for premium credit cards, to pay for the benefits (not to pay for the cost of operating the network.) This cost is shared among all consumers, not just the well-off who can get premium credit cards. It’s a captive market, which means Visa & MC really don’t have a ton of incentive to compete. How do you get new payment networks to integrate? Banks typically only offer a single network on their cards, and businesses use whatever their PoS systems accept. For a new network to compete, it’d need to be available everywhere. It’s the textbook definition of core infrastructure for society and frankly should be operated like a utility. It’s not like Visa & MC are innovating - just look at the lethargic rollout of contactless in the US until COVID forced everyone’s hands. The sole purpose of visa & MC is to grow profit each year. That’s it. I’m not a fan of that being in the middle of practically all consumer spending

by havaloc 8mo ago

unmole 8mo ago

India built RuPay, China built UnionPay. There's no reason why Europe can't do the same.

psychoslave 8mo ago
France still has CB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CB_Bank_Card_Group
- Beretta_Vexee 8mo ago
  There are equivalents in several European countries. The problem is that these networks are national and not European, let alone global. National banking players did not want to give up their turf. The European Union had to twist their arms to get them to agree to SEPA transfers, instant transfers, etc. If banking players cannot agree, then regulation (or the threat of regulation) must be used.
  - psychoslave 8mo ago
    Well, yes, but it happens that European directives do happen and are actually followed or enforced. Without laws there would be no bank in the first place, neither at national or paneuropean level.
- clownpenis_fart 8mo ago
  CB actually have higher security standards than visa. I once worked at a company doing payment card personalization (its the company who turn blank smart cards into finalized cards on behalf of banks. They print the customers names, emboss the account number, and program the chip and the magstrip) Every year they had comprehensive security audits from Visa, Mastercard and Groupe Carte Bleue. One guy there told me that they did the Groupe Carte Bleue audit first, because its the toughest. If they passed it they were sure to pass the others.
close04 8mo ago
The most obvious difference being that unlike China or India, Europe (or the EU) is not a single country. This doesn't make things impossible but certainly complicates them.
- laksjhdlka 8mo ago
  Exactly, now that the internet is ubiquitous, none of the problems with replacing credit card companies like VISA are really technical. They are regulatory, they are political, they are social.
  - jimnotgym 8mo ago
    And before Trump it wasn't worth the aggravation. It wasn't worth the pushback from the US government. Trump sure has moved the needle on that! We used to pay protection money to the US via this. Now we don't get the protection, so we don't need to pay.
  - close04 8mo ago
    > one of the problems with replacing credit card companies like VISA are really technical VISA and Mastercard never resolved major technical problems. It's nothing a bank wouldn't already be able to achieve internally from a technological complexity point of view. They didn't invent any of the technologies, they just navigated the political and regulatory hurdles, then leveraged their position for more. Your comment makes it look like the problems are "just" political or regulatory. These are more often then not the bigger ones.
  - TulliusCicero 8mo ago
    Surely the EU could pull off something similar to what India did with their instant payments program? That system seems to have garnered near-universal praise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface
- graemep 8mo ago
  The sensible thing would be to do it by currency area - e.g. the Eurozone. Technology and some systems could be shared.
scotty79 8mo ago
European countries each have their system. But they do not interoperate. You can't pay with blik in Germany, you can't pay with German debit card in Poland.
- rudolftheone 8mo ago
  As jacekm mentioned already (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46963497 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46963497), Blik has just made a significant step toward interoperability just week ago, see https://www.blik.com/przelewy-na-telefon-w-euro-z-hiszpanii-do-polski-blik-testuje-interoperacyjnosc-z-kolejnymi-europejskimi-systemami-platnosci https://www.blik.com/przelewy-na-telefon-w-euro-z-hiszpanii-...

jsiepkes 8mo ago

In the Netherlands, before VISA, there already was a national debit card standard called PIN [1]. Sure, times have changed and it's probably not super easy, but it's also not going to be super hard. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIN_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIN_(debit_card)

anal_reactor 8mo ago
Fun fact: until about a year ago it was not possible to pay using normal debit cards in most Dutch shops, you had to have a local card. I distinctly remember that AH, Vomar and Jumbo would typically reject foreign cards while Lidl and Dirk would typically accept them. Of course there were exceptions, but that was the rule of thumb. Most Dutch people were unaware of the issue (because Dutch cards worked abroad), and those who were, were fully convinced that it's because Dutch system is objectively better (it wasn't, it was just a separate network). Then in like 2024/2025 Visa and Mastercard finally retired their special V-Pay and Maestro brands, and now most terminals in the Netherlands accept most normal cards.
- dcrazy 8mo ago
  Was V-Pay different from Visa Electron?
RealityVoid 8mo ago
I think most people miss that the biggest hurdle is political. Once a political will exists, this system will come to exist.
wellf 8mo ago
A card I can tap on a vending machine anywhere in the world. Crypto was probably the hope to compete but that didn't pan out.

hellojimbo 8mo ago

My takeaway from the episode was that its actually really easy to setup up visa, you just need to get the banks, vendors, and card issuers onboard, which should be easy if you're the government

direwolf20 8mo ago
You still need to make it, but actually making it is a small fraction of the problem, less than half

themafia 8mo ago

> with all the rules and regulations out there. And who wrote those? Aren't they just another part of the moat? > It's actually quite fascinating how it was started. Visa was founded in 1958 by Bank of America (BofA) as the BankAmericard credit card program.[1] In response to competitor Master Charge (now Mastercard), BofA began to license the BankAmericard program to other financial institutions in 1966.[8] By 1970, BofA gave up direct control of the BankAmericard program, forming a cooperative with the other various BankAmericard issuer banks to take over its management. It was then renamed Visa in 1976. The answer is: "Banks."

anon7000 8mo ago

Sure, it’s hard, but a duopoly is skimming LITERALLY 1-3% off the entire consumer economy for a service that is not that expensive to operate. Additionally, interchange rates are higher for premium credit cards, to pay for the benefits (not to pay for the cost of operating the network.) This cost is shared among all consumers, not just the well-off who can get premium credit cards. It’s a captive market, which means Visa & MC really don’t have a ton of incentive to compete. How do you get new payment networks to integrate? Banks typically only offer a single network on their cards, and businesses use whatever their PoS systems accept. For a new network to compete, it’d need to be available everywhere. It’s the textbook definition of core infrastructure for society and frankly should be operated like a utility. It’s not like Visa & MC are innovating - just look at the lethargic rollout of contactless in the US until COVID forced everyone’s hands. The sole purpose of visa & MC is to grow profit each year. That’s it. I’m not a fan of that being in the middle of practically all consumer spending