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I think Singapore's immigration policy is still interesting and relevant to western countries, but it's true it's also kind of similar to the UAE. Essentially

I think Singapore's immigration policy is still interesting and relevant to western countries, but it's true it's also kind of similar to the UAE. Essentially it's (relatively) easy to get work visas for areas where there's a genuine shortage but difficult to get permanent residency and almost impossible to get citizenship. That's still a very different policy to what most western countries have right now. The UAE has the most extreme version of this so the milder Singaporean version is less interesting as an example.

snowpid 9mo ago
The UAE still murders gay men just for beeing gay. Besides the lack of morality this affects 7 % of all men worldwide. Im not sure if UAE really be an exciting place and thus would someone migrate to it if you care about culture and stuff.
- marcosdumay 9mo ago
  Yes, Singapore will execute people for different reasons, not for being gay.
  - notpushkin 9mo ago
    Yes, mostly for drug trafficking and murder. You could in theory argue that drug trafficking is kinda comparable to being gay [1], but the capital punishment is only for huge amounts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore#Misuse_of_Drugs_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapor... [1]: I mean, in my book consensual trade between two grown up people is closer to consensual sex between two grown up people than it is to murder. That said, there is still some difference.
    - pydry 9mo ago
      They also applied the death penalty to somebody with the mental capacities of a child who was being exploited as a drug mule.
  - rayiner 9mo ago
    That’s a pretty big fucking difference though.
- nurumaik 9mo ago
  Any real recent examples of this, specifically in Abu Dhabi or Dubai?
  - Supermancho 9mo ago
    There aren't any examples for Dubai (afaik), on record. In the UAE, 2015 was the last execution for homosexuality. There was a deportation in 2017 for maybe cross dressing? Either way, I would consider the UAE an exceptionally unsafe place to visit.
    - breppp 9mo ago
      Any source for the 2015 case? All I found was executions of pedophile rapists
      - Supermancho 9mo ago
        I think you're right. While the UAE doesn't execute people for pedophilia, per se, the homosexuality element was what allowed for it.
        philwelch 9mo ago
        Many traditional cultures don’t really distinguish between homosexuality and pedarasty. That distinction, or at least the cultural recognition of a distinction, is largely a distinctive artifact of the sexual revolution, a western phenomenon.
        breppp 9mo ago
        I don't think that was the case, the executions I saw was for rape and murder of four and eight year olds
        philwelch 9mo ago
        Right, my point is that if they were men raping four and eight year old boys, they may very well have been convicted of sodomy rather than child rape like they would in some Western countries. The state law in Washington even had a similar issue. Bestiality was prohibited by the sodomy statute, which the state repealed in its entirety as a gay rights thing. After the Enumclaw incident the legislature scrambled to re-criminalize bestiality.
- breppp 9mo ago
  All gulf states have abysmal gay rights, but are you sure they are executing gay men?
  - snowpid 9mo ago
    I'll checked it and you are right. It is just law and practical not done. But what is worse: Law which does not matter, because the elite will ignore it anyway or threatening gay men to kill them but currently not doing tit. anyway, not a place a emigrate.
    - breppp 9mo ago
      I agree, without even talking about gay rights, I think both the UAE and Qatar have a legal system and an immigration system I wouldn't want to be subjected to. Generally true for most of the world outside of the West
- shell0x 9mo ago
  If you are gay don’t go there. As an expat who is not affected, my main concern is that i just don’t want to pay taxes
cess11 9mo ago
Do they get to vote? Also in general elections? Are they typically organised in unions?
- noobermin 9mo ago
  There are elections but a combination of gerrymandering and honestly just good governance by the ruling party has kept them in power. People genuinely like the PAP. To the extent people vote for opposition candidates, most people would readily admit they do so only to send a message to the PAP. Most Singaporeans do not sincerely want to be ruled by anyone else yet. Unionisation in Singapore is very different than the rest of the world. There is one very large union (the National Trades Union Congress, NTUC) but it mostly works with the government and the PAP and has a bit of a revolving door with some PAP MPs serving as leadership in NTUC. Wildcat strikes are illegal, and striking is generally not allowed. I think the last sanctioned strike by NTUC was in the 80s. The union does still generally represent workers in disputes between employers and the government and does other work on behalf of workers (trainings, some welfare, it runs the largest grocery chain that at least theoretically is supposed to be a social enterprise and a cooperative), so most members I think accept the arrangement, for what it's worth.
- pydry 9mo ago
  The ruling party has perfected the art of using legal and social pressures to fracture any competing parties if they get too big. They have a jealously guarded media monopoly and viciously crack down on opposition bloggers by suing them into bankruptcy using absurdly strict libel laws. As a last resort they steal any policies which make the opposition popular. This is actually an underrated means by which Singaporeans exert democratic pressure on the government but it makes it pretty demoralizing to be in opposition. There is a national union but it is controlled by the government. Striking is illegal iirc, but membership will get you discounts on your shopping. Singaporeans are pretty apolitical on the whole, which is how the PAP seems to like it. Theyre not like Americans - not split into two herds who are trained to hate one another.
  - czl 9mo ago
    Sound like Singapore's system rewards competence + stability, and that makes it hard for opposition to scale, because the incumbents can absorb popular ideas while keeping institutional advantages. That’s demoralizing if you’re doing party-building. But the flip side is: it means citizens do have leverage, just not always in the form of “replace the government.”
rayiner 9mo ago
Singapore has also somehow maintained a supermajority Chinese population consistently since the 1970s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore (77% in 1970, 74.3% in 2020). That is even though the predominantly Muslim Malay population has had much higher total fertility than the Chinese population since 1980: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Total-Fertility-Rate-Per-Female-by-Racial-Group-in-Singapore-1965-2015_fig4_317616450 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Total-Fertility-Rate-Per.... It seems like Singapore uses its immigration system in a deliberate way to maintain the political power of the dominant cultural group.
- unmole 9mo ago
  > Singapore has also somehow maintained a supermajority Chinese population It’s not really a secret that Singapore uses ethnicity based quotas when granting PR and citizenship to maintain their demographic composition.
  - lazylizard 9mo ago
    and theres no shortage of well educated malaysian chinese running away from bumi policies...
  - aurareturn 9mo ago
    It’s not really a secret that Singapore uses ethnicity based quotas when granting PR and citizenship to maintain their demographic composition. Or be like Malaysia. They don't even bother to keep it a secret to maintain Malay governing power and unfair advantage. Cheaper gas only for Muslim citizens, not Chinese/Indian citizens. A company must hire Malay Muslim no matter what. Plenty of other rules that favor an ethnicity.
  - ifwinterco 9mo ago
    I saw a post once from a white guy with a wife and two kids (I think also white) who was confused why he was having so much trouble getting Singaporean PR despite contributing so much to the economy. Like bro... you are the wrong race, it's that simple, shouldn't be too hard to understand. I'm not making a moral judgement on whether that's correct or not but it's just how it works
kdheiwns 9mo ago
This. My mental image of Singapore was always boring guys in suits working for soulless banks. At least Wall Street bankers go wild on drugs and know how to party. Singapore bankers are men who, when feeling adventurous, have a sip of wine here and there and women who push dogs in strollers. Having been to Singapore many times, I've realized my mental image was pretty accurate. There's no real art scene and even mentioning anything that slightly goes against the grain of Singapore's tight, tidy, and strict regimens doesn't just not appeal to the people, it'll actively infuriate them. A hint of rebellious nature defines cool. Singapore doesn't have a single drop of that within its entire national borders. It's like North Korea with money and good PR. At least a lot of North Koreans sneak in a little rebellion when they know nobody is watching, even if it's minor stuff like watching illegal foreign TV shows. Singapore is the type of place where your neighbors would report you if such a thing became illegal, instead of saying "Hey bro, let me borrow those DVDs after you're done." It's a great place to make money. Then once you have it, leave to live a little. The country is so against cool it even has a designated free speech corner that doesn't allow free speech and had its usage hours limited from 7 AM to 7 PM and limits speech to 4 languages only: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakers%27_Corner,_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakers%27_Corner,_Singapore
- noobermin 9mo ago
  Close to a true perspective, especially if you came as one of those suits. There is soul in singapore, it's just actively co-opted by the govment or actively suppressed. You have to actually live here to see it and have friends who are not expats or mainland chinese (which is hard I think for most foreigners who come), it definitely isn't the same as the soul that you see in america or europe, I guess. The work life (a bit more chill than Japan or Korea but still harsh like the asian norm) doesn't help.
  - pydry 9mo ago
    In Russia I noticed that it took barely 10 minutes with stranger before getting into a discussion of philosophy, literature, meaning of life, etc. (or how their soul ached for something) I never saw this Singaporean soul even in deepest darkest ang mo kio. It was low key creepy how shallow the locals were. They'd chat about gaming, shopping, grinding and food, food, food but very rarely anything deeper. even after knowing them for years. I went to some "artistic immersive theater" there one time (there was an event like this maybe once a year?) and even there the first third was a girl monologuing about her love of kpop. Most countries fit in the middle of these two somewhere but these two countries really stood out to me in their extremes.
burnt-resistor 9mo ago
UAE.. powered by de facto slavery.

snowpid 9mo ago

The UAE still murders gay men just for beeing gay. Besides the lack of morality this affects 7 % of all men worldwide. Im not sure if UAE really be an exciting place and thus would someone migrate to it if you care about culture and stuff.

marcosdumay 9mo ago
Yes, Singapore will execute people for different reasons, not for being gay.
- notpushkin 9mo ago
  Yes, mostly for drug trafficking and murder. You could in theory argue that drug trafficking is kinda comparable to being gay [1], but the capital punishment is only for huge amounts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapore#Misuse_of_Drugs_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_Singapor... [1]: I mean, in my book consensual trade between two grown up people is closer to consensual sex between two grown up people than it is to murder. That said, there is still some difference.
  - pydry 9mo ago
    They also applied the death penalty to somebody with the mental capacities of a child who was being exploited as a drug mule.
- rayiner 9mo ago
  That’s a pretty big fucking difference though.
nurumaik 9mo ago
Any real recent examples of this, specifically in Abu Dhabi or Dubai?
- Supermancho 9mo ago
  There aren't any examples for Dubai (afaik), on record. In the UAE, 2015 was the last execution for homosexuality. There was a deportation in 2017 for maybe cross dressing? Either way, I would consider the UAE an exceptionally unsafe place to visit.
  - breppp 9mo ago
    Any source for the 2015 case? All I found was executions of pedophile rapists
    - Supermancho 9mo ago
      I think you're right. While the UAE doesn't execute people for pedophilia, per se, the homosexuality element was what allowed for it.
      - philwelch 9mo ago
        Many traditional cultures don’t really distinguish between homosexuality and pedarasty. That distinction, or at least the cultural recognition of a distinction, is largely a distinctive artifact of the sexual revolution, a western phenomenon.
        breppp 9mo ago
        I don't think that was the case, the executions I saw was for rape and murder of four and eight year olds
        philwelch 9mo ago
        Right, my point is that if they were men raping four and eight year old boys, they may very well have been convicted of sodomy rather than child rape like they would in some Western countries. The state law in Washington even had a similar issue. Bestiality was prohibited by the sodomy statute, which the state repealed in its entirety as a gay rights thing. After the Enumclaw incident the legislature scrambled to re-criminalize bestiality.
breppp 9mo ago
All gulf states have abysmal gay rights, but are you sure they are executing gay men?
- snowpid 9mo ago
  I'll checked it and you are right. It is just law and practical not done. But what is worse: Law which does not matter, because the elite will ignore it anyway or threatening gay men to kill them but currently not doing tit. anyway, not a place a emigrate.
  - breppp 9mo ago
    I agree, without even talking about gay rights, I think both the UAE and Qatar have a legal system and an immigration system I wouldn't want to be subjected to. Generally true for most of the world outside of the West
shell0x 9mo ago
If you are gay don’t go there. As an expat who is not affected, my main concern is that i just don’t want to pay taxes

cess11 9mo ago

Do they get to vote? Also in general elections? Are they typically organised in unions?

noobermin 9mo ago
There are elections but a combination of gerrymandering and honestly just good governance by the ruling party has kept them in power. People genuinely like the PAP. To the extent people vote for opposition candidates, most people would readily admit they do so only to send a message to the PAP. Most Singaporeans do not sincerely want to be ruled by anyone else yet. Unionisation in Singapore is very different than the rest of the world. There is one very large union (the National Trades Union Congress, NTUC) but it mostly works with the government and the PAP and has a bit of a revolving door with some PAP MPs serving as leadership in NTUC. Wildcat strikes are illegal, and striking is generally not allowed. I think the last sanctioned strike by NTUC was in the 80s. The union does still generally represent workers in disputes between employers and the government and does other work on behalf of workers (trainings, some welfare, it runs the largest grocery chain that at least theoretically is supposed to be a social enterprise and a cooperative), so most members I think accept the arrangement, for what it's worth.
pydry 9mo ago
The ruling party has perfected the art of using legal and social pressures to fracture any competing parties if they get too big. They have a jealously guarded media monopoly and viciously crack down on opposition bloggers by suing them into bankruptcy using absurdly strict libel laws. As a last resort they steal any policies which make the opposition popular. This is actually an underrated means by which Singaporeans exert democratic pressure on the government but it makes it pretty demoralizing to be in opposition. There is a national union but it is controlled by the government. Striking is illegal iirc, but membership will get you discounts on your shopping. Singaporeans are pretty apolitical on the whole, which is how the PAP seems to like it. Theyre not like Americans - not split into two herds who are trained to hate one another.
- czl 9mo ago
  Sound like Singapore's system rewards competence + stability, and that makes it hard for opposition to scale, because the incumbents can absorb popular ideas while keeping institutional advantages. That’s demoralizing if you’re doing party-building. But the flip side is: it means citizens do have leverage, just not always in the form of “replace the government.”

rayiner 9mo ago

Singapore has also somehow maintained a supermajority Chinese population consistently since the 1970s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Singapore (77% in 1970, 74.3% in 2020). That is even though the predominantly Muslim Malay population has had much higher total fertility than the Chinese population since 1980: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Total-Fertility-Rate-Per-Female-by-Racial-Group-in-Singapore-1965-2015_fig4_317616450 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Total-Fertility-Rate-Per.... It seems like Singapore uses its immigration system in a deliberate way to maintain the political power of the dominant cultural group.

unmole 9mo ago
> Singapore has also somehow maintained a supermajority Chinese population It’s not really a secret that Singapore uses ethnicity based quotas when granting PR and citizenship to maintain their demographic composition.
- lazylizard 9mo ago
  and theres no shortage of well educated malaysian chinese running away from bumi policies...
- aurareturn 9mo ago
  It’s not really a secret that Singapore uses ethnicity based quotas when granting PR and citizenship to maintain their demographic composition. Or be like Malaysia. They don't even bother to keep it a secret to maintain Malay governing power and unfair advantage. Cheaper gas only for Muslim citizens, not Chinese/Indian citizens. A company must hire Malay Muslim no matter what. Plenty of other rules that favor an ethnicity.
- ifwinterco 9mo ago
  I saw a post once from a white guy with a wife and two kids (I think also white) who was confused why he was having so much trouble getting Singaporean PR despite contributing so much to the economy. Like bro... you are the wrong race, it's that simple, shouldn't be too hard to understand. I'm not making a moral judgement on whether that's correct or not but it's just how it works

kdheiwns 9mo ago

This. My mental image of Singapore was always boring guys in suits working for soulless banks. At least Wall Street bankers go wild on drugs and know how to party. Singapore bankers are men who, when feeling adventurous, have a sip of wine here and there and women who push dogs in strollers. Having been to Singapore many times, I've realized my mental image was pretty accurate. There's no real art scene and even mentioning anything that slightly goes against the grain of Singapore's tight, tidy, and strict regimens doesn't just not appeal to the people, it'll actively infuriate them. A hint of rebellious nature defines cool. Singapore doesn't have a single drop of that within its entire national borders. It's like North Korea with money and good PR. At least a lot of North Koreans sneak in a little rebellion when they know nobody is watching, even if it's minor stuff like watching illegal foreign TV shows. Singapore is the type of place where your neighbors would report you if such a thing became illegal, instead of saying "Hey bro, let me borrow those DVDs after you're done." It's a great place to make money. Then once you have it, leave to live a little. The country is so against cool it even has a designated free speech corner that doesn't allow free speech and had its usage hours limited from 7 AM to 7 PM and limits speech to 4 languages only: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakers%27_Corner,_Singapore https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakers%27_Corner,_Singapore

noobermin 9mo ago
Close to a true perspective, especially if you came as one of those suits. There is soul in singapore, it's just actively co-opted by the govment or actively suppressed. You have to actually live here to see it and have friends who are not expats or mainland chinese (which is hard I think for most foreigners who come), it definitely isn't the same as the soul that you see in america or europe, I guess. The work life (a bit more chill than Japan or Korea but still harsh like the asian norm) doesn't help.
- pydry 9mo ago
  In Russia I noticed that it took barely 10 minutes with stranger before getting into a discussion of philosophy, literature, meaning of life, etc. (or how their soul ached for something) I never saw this Singaporean soul even in deepest darkest ang mo kio. It was low key creepy how shallow the locals were. They'd chat about gaming, shopping, grinding and food, food, food but very rarely anything deeper. even after knowing them for years. I went to some "artistic immersive theater" there one time (there was an event like this maybe once a year?) and even there the first third was a girl monologuing about her love of kpop. Most countries fit in the middle of these two somewhere but these two countries really stood out to me in their extremes.

burnt-resistor 9mo ago