12 ms·

My main concern is, how long is it before you can't print a replacement part for something you bought because it looks too similar to an OEM part and the manufa

My main concern is, how long is it before you can't print a replacement part for something you bought because it looks too similar to an OEM part and the manufacturer doesn't think you should be able to do that so they throw a little money to the right politician.

PlatoIsADisease 8mo ago
I remember ~10 or 15 years ago, I had concerns about drones becoming illegal due to FAA. I was assured by the internet, I was paranoid, blah blah safety... Then a few weeks ago something about Minnesota and ICE making drones illegal to fly or something... The weird part is that, in that 15 years, I've become more moderate and pro-democratic rule of law... but I was right about my previous concerns. Not that I believe in the Justice behind them anymore.
- nemomarx 8mo ago
  I guess it was a predictable outreach from the Patriot act - the new justification is flying drones "over a mission" from the border people, and they claim a lot of territory for their missions, right?
  - butvacuum 8mo ago
    they also don't publish the NOTAMs ahead of time. So, they're effectively allowing ICE to retroactively make flying a drone illegal if an agent takes issue with the color of your cheesburger bun.
  - bluescrn 8mo ago
    More likely the videos of FPV drones from Ukraine showing that an inexpensive quadcopter can be a very effective weapon of war. And that radio jamming no longer neutralizes that threat.
    - crote 8mo ago
      That could be used to justify banning drones in general, or banning all drones which aren't radio controlled (not that those are being used domestically). And "it can be used for war" is a bit silly in a country where you can buy guns at the grocery store. Not to mention that cars can be very effective weapons as well, and those haven't been banned yet. The far more likely explanation is that they just don't want people filming them. They can't legally stop someone with a cellphone from filming them, but that hasn't stopped them from using up-to-lethal force against observers. On the other hand, you can't exactly beat a flying drone into submission, so the obvious move is to observe using drones instead. Luckily for ICE the FAA already has the mechanics in place to criminalize flying drones in certain places, so with their magic "no drones anywhere we operate" NOTAM they can now punish observers with a year of jail time.
      - nemomarx 8mo ago
        I agree with your point but they definitely want to kill you for being in a car and driving near them if they get scared so IDK if we can use cars as an example of something they don't mind
  - djmips 8mo ago
    It's my understanding that they are no longer the border people as Trump extended their reach to every square inch of the USA
- TOMDM 8mo ago
  The rights abuses occurring in Minnesota and at the hands of ICE are better characterised as a degradation of democracy, not a failure of it. EDIT: To be clear, my belief is that a plurality of the voting population voted for this, that much is obvious. My belief is also that despite the fact that the current administration was elected, there are democratic norms and rules for what outcomes require that a bill must be passed to enact, that states can decide how they can govern themselves within well defined bounds. All of this is being ignored despite the structures defined in the American democatric system, not because of it.
  - sheepscreek 8mo ago
    Yep. Democracy is working according to a non-minority in the country. Agree to disagree?
    - mystraline 8mo ago
      Sure. I'll bite. The majority in this country is "didn't vote". Multitudes of reasons for this. They forgot. They dont care. They missed the registration deadline. They're homeless, and no address. They can't get proper papers, even though they are US born. They're in prison/jail. The candidates suck, so you dont vote. Can't afford to take time off work. They've been gerrymandered, so their votes are significantly degraded. To think that the minority segment that, due to election game rules and FPTP, that a minority of the minority somehow reflects a majority? I wholly reject that.
      - monero-xmr 8mo ago
        I mean you can make up all the excuses you want for losing an election but you still lost. Doesn’t make the result illegitimate
        deleted 8mo ago
        [deleted]
        olyjohn 8mo ago
- rpcope1 8mo ago
  They sort of tried with the remote ID and FRIA shit, I really doubt anyone but the kind of person that buys DJI or maybe the most broken hall monitor types bother with remote ID on fixed wing even above 250g. I think the Trump admin banned (or tried) to ban all the important parts for all RC craft, so maybe they'll keep jousting with windmills even harder.
- onetokeoverthe 8mo ago
  [dead]
- salawat 8mo ago
  >I remember ~10 or 15 years ago, I had concerns about drones becoming illegal due to FAA. My Plato hating friend, my "called it" list is filled with things the old-timers at the time said no one would be stupid enough to, and the old codgers went and died on me so I can't even give em a good lambast. I believed them, and helped them build things... Now I get to watch things get coopted by a madman and a NatSec apparatus. Pour one out.
- watwut 8mo ago
  To be fair, ICE is not particularly caring about rule of law. And DOJ is currently not caring about rule of law or constitution either. They are kind of irrelevant.
- catgirlinspace 8mo ago
  Recently they banned all new DJI drones and as far as I know they were basically the only option in the consumer space? And there's nothing domestically of course :/
nerdsniper 8mo ago
I’ll just build my own 3D printer lol. Did it college 15 years ago. I’ll do it again.
- b00ty4breakfast 8mo ago
  I would unironically love to see the diy 3d printer scene come back.
  - SequoiaHope 8mo ago
    It never went away. The Voron continues to be a popular DIY 3D printer, tho many people choose to buy ready-made printers.
    - nerdsniper 8mo ago
      DIY used to just be “the way”. Today “the way” is Bambu. But the scene has also grown a lot, so I could see the market size of DIY staying the same or growing, even if its lost a lot of market share.
      - _flux 8mo ago
        It's just the difference between having 3d printers as a hobby vs 3d printing as a hobby.
    - b00ty4breakfast 8mo ago
      THis is a case of me not knowing and assuming, ha. I remember the peak days of the RepRap scene so I just assumed as that slowed down, the entire thing was dead
      - SequoiaHope 8mo ago
        I was attending Bay Area Reprap Club meetings in 2010! Got my first printer (Ultimaker V1) in 2011. My how things have changed. We just got a second Bambu H2D Pro at work. Incredible machine.
teo_zero 8mo ago
> how long is it before you can't print a replacement part for something you bought because it looks too similar to an OEM part and the manufacturer doesn't think you should be able to do that so they throw a little money to the right politician At least 25 years. That's the time passed since the first introduction of Eurion marks on banknotes. As far as I know, noone has used it to block reproduction of anything other than money.
- tobyjsullivan 8mo ago
  No idea why this comment is getting downvoted so hard. This was exactly what I thought of too, and it provides a concrete answer to the question. There’s valid concern with these types of laws and scope creep. But there’s also precedent which shows they can work and be applied reasonably.
- rustyhancock 8mo ago
  Is this true? Couldn't I put the mark on a page of my book and photocopiers would still detect and refuse to copy that page?
  - ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
    Yes, absolutely. It's a pattern of five rings, well-documented although Omron appears to keep the exact details pretty tightly held. They don't have to be exact circles, they just have to be some dots in about the right place. In the UK, the Bank of England issued notes with Elgar on them and the EURion constellation picked out in musical notes ;-)
- Arch-TK 8mo ago
  EURion marks are a feature you must include on your banknote for it to even be considered real. And it's _one_ feature. It's relatively trivial to make a chip which can detect their presence. On the other hand, if I need a replacement part for something, it's unlikely I will find the manufacturer giving me models for it. And if a manufacturer is giving me models for it, they probably do so with the explicit expectation that I might end up using them to manufacture a replacement. In most cases either me or some other volunteer will need to measure the existing part, write down all the critical measurements, and then design a new part from scratch in CAD. Even if somehow you are able to fingerprint on those critical measurements, that's just _one_ part. The only way this kind of nonsense law could work is if you mandate that 3D printers must not accept commands from an untrusted source (signature verification) and then you must have software which uses a database to check for such critical measurements, ideally _before_ slicing. Except that still doesn't work because I can always post-process a part to fit. And it doesn't work even more because the software will need to contain a signing key. Unless the signing key is on a remote server somewhere to which you must send your model for validation. This is never going to work, or scale. There are even more hurdles... I can design and build a 3D printer from scratch and manufacture it using non-CNC machined parts at home. A working, high quality 3D printer. Where are you going to force me to put the locks? Are you going to require me to show my ID when buying stepper motors and stepper motor drivers? What about other kinds of manufacturing (that these laws, at least the Washington State ones, also cover)? Will you ban old hardware? What about a milling machine? Are you going to ban non-CNC mills? These are the most ignorant laws made by the most ignorant people. The easiest way to ban people from manufacturing their own guns is to ban manufacture of your own guns. But again, this is a complete non-issue in the US where you can probably get a gun illegally more easily than you can 3D print something half as reliable.
2muchcoffeeman 8mo ago
Too bad everyone jumped shipped to Bambuu Labs. If only we still had open source hardware.
- dns_snek 8mo ago
  We do still have open source hardware but that's the last line of defense against actions like this, not the first. They'll target distribution which will affect open source and proprietary hardware equally. You need to kill this sort of legislation in its crib.
  - bradfa 8mo ago
    Just print the code to do what ever is disallowed on a t-shirt, ala DVDCSS. Is that not a legitimate way around things like this?
  - Brian_K_White 8mo ago
    You need both, because there really is no such thing as kill it in it's crib. The people that want this will continue to want it forever, and will continue to propose it forever. And eventually it works.
    - kiba 8mo ago
      Nothing is forever. This whole thing rose in the first place because a novel technology was used to make weapons. To give another example, the whole modern anti-vaxxer movement was started by a doctor to sell bogus tests.
    - no_wizard 8mo ago
      The missing the third ingredient which is passing rollback resistant legislation in its place that protects these freedoms. That makes efforts far more durable. Than it’s a matter of showing up in court to defend attacks against the law(s) that protect it. In this way, we can have durable change, but it’s a high cost road. By design I am sure.
    - dns_snek 8mo ago
passwordoops 8mo ago
IP/BigCo lawyers are probably the main lobbyists behind this article in the bill so I would think soonish
laylower 8mo ago
This is part of the wider problem and heavily relates to the right to repair Cory talked about this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39jsstmmUUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39jsstmmUUs
PunchyHamster 8mo ago
probably about 6 months after people start screaming about the issue
dmux 8mo ago
I wonder if you could circumvent this by adding a thin appendage to whatever it was you're printing and then just snip it off post-print.
hedora 8mo ago
It’ll happen the day this bill is passed. If they cared even a little bit about gun violence, they’d focus on mental health and other preventive measures. If they just wanted to provide the illusion that they cared about gun violence, they’d go after high-volume manufacturers first. This reminds me of Trump’s Venezuela coup. I’m offended they aren’t even bothering to properly lie about their motives.

PlatoIsADisease 8mo ago

I remember ~10 or 15 years ago, I had concerns about drones becoming illegal due to FAA. I was assured by the internet, I was paranoid, blah blah safety... Then a few weeks ago something about Minnesota and ICE making drones illegal to fly or something... The weird part is that, in that 15 years, I've become more moderate and pro-democratic rule of law... but I was right about my previous concerns. Not that I believe in the Justice behind them anymore.

nemomarx 8mo ago
I guess it was a predictable outreach from the Patriot act - the new justification is flying drones "over a mission" from the border people, and they claim a lot of territory for their missions, right?
- butvacuum 8mo ago
  they also don't publish the NOTAMs ahead of time. So, they're effectively allowing ICE to retroactively make flying a drone illegal if an agent takes issue with the color of your cheesburger bun.
- bluescrn 8mo ago
  More likely the videos of FPV drones from Ukraine showing that an inexpensive quadcopter can be a very effective weapon of war. And that radio jamming no longer neutralizes that threat.
  - crote 8mo ago
    That could be used to justify banning drones in general, or banning all drones which aren't radio controlled (not that those are being used domestically). And "it can be used for war" is a bit silly in a country where you can buy guns at the grocery store. Not to mention that cars can be very effective weapons as well, and those haven't been banned yet. The far more likely explanation is that they just don't want people filming them. They can't legally stop someone with a cellphone from filming them, but that hasn't stopped them from using up-to-lethal force against observers. On the other hand, you can't exactly beat a flying drone into submission, so the obvious move is to observe using drones instead. Luckily for ICE the FAA already has the mechanics in place to criminalize flying drones in certain places, so with their magic "no drones anywhere we operate" NOTAM they can now punish observers with a year of jail time.
    - nemomarx 8mo ago
      I agree with your point but they definitely want to kill you for being in a car and driving near them if they get scared so IDK if we can use cars as an example of something they don't mind
- djmips 8mo ago
  It's my understanding that they are no longer the border people as Trump extended their reach to every square inch of the USA
TOMDM 8mo ago
The rights abuses occurring in Minnesota and at the hands of ICE are better characterised as a degradation of democracy, not a failure of it. EDIT: To be clear, my belief is that a plurality of the voting population voted for this, that much is obvious. My belief is also that despite the fact that the current administration was elected, there are democratic norms and rules for what outcomes require that a bill must be passed to enact, that states can decide how they can govern themselves within well defined bounds. All of this is being ignored despite the structures defined in the American democatric system, not because of it.
- sheepscreek 8mo ago
  Yep. Democracy is working according to a non-minority in the country. Agree to disagree?
  - mystraline 8mo ago
    Sure. I'll bite. The majority in this country is "didn't vote". Multitudes of reasons for this. They forgot. They dont care. They missed the registration deadline. They're homeless, and no address. They can't get proper papers, even though they are US born. They're in prison/jail. The candidates suck, so you dont vote. Can't afford to take time off work. They've been gerrymandered, so their votes are significantly degraded. To think that the minority segment that, due to election game rules and FPTP, that a minority of the minority somehow reflects a majority? I wholly reject that.
    - monero-xmr 8mo ago
      I mean you can make up all the excuses you want for losing an election but you still lost. Doesn’t make the result illegitimate
      - deleted 8mo ago
        [deleted]
      - olyjohn 8mo ago
rpcope1 8mo ago
They sort of tried with the remote ID and FRIA shit, I really doubt anyone but the kind of person that buys DJI or maybe the most broken hall monitor types bother with remote ID on fixed wing even above 250g. I think the Trump admin banned (or tried) to ban all the important parts for all RC craft, so maybe they'll keep jousting with windmills even harder.
onetokeoverthe 8mo ago
[dead]
salawat 8mo ago
>I remember ~10 or 15 years ago, I had concerns about drones becoming illegal due to FAA. My Plato hating friend, my "called it" list is filled with things the old-timers at the time said no one would be stupid enough to, and the old codgers went and died on me so I can't even give em a good lambast. I believed them, and helped them build things... Now I get to watch things get coopted by a madman and a NatSec apparatus. Pour one out.
watwut 8mo ago
To be fair, ICE is not particularly caring about rule of law. And DOJ is currently not caring about rule of law or constitution either. They are kind of irrelevant.
catgirlinspace 8mo ago
Recently they banned all new DJI drones and as far as I know they were basically the only option in the consumer space? And there's nothing domestically of course :/

nerdsniper 8mo ago

I’ll just build my own 3D printer lol. Did it college 15 years ago. I’ll do it again.

b00ty4breakfast 8mo ago
I would unironically love to see the diy 3d printer scene come back.
- SequoiaHope 8mo ago
  It never went away. The Voron continues to be a popular DIY 3D printer, tho many people choose to buy ready-made printers.
  - nerdsniper 8mo ago
    DIY used to just be “the way”. Today “the way” is Bambu. But the scene has also grown a lot, so I could see the market size of DIY staying the same or growing, even if its lost a lot of market share.
    - _flux 8mo ago
      It's just the difference between having 3d printers as a hobby vs 3d printing as a hobby.
  - b00ty4breakfast 8mo ago
    THis is a case of me not knowing and assuming, ha. I remember the peak days of the RepRap scene so I just assumed as that slowed down, the entire thing was dead
    - SequoiaHope 8mo ago
      I was attending Bay Area Reprap Club meetings in 2010! Got my first printer (Ultimaker V1) in 2011. My how things have changed. We just got a second Bambu H2D Pro at work. Incredible machine.

teo_zero 8mo ago

> how long is it before you can't print a replacement part for something you bought because it looks too similar to an OEM part and the manufacturer doesn't think you should be able to do that so they throw a little money to the right politician At least 25 years. That's the time passed since the first introduction of Eurion marks on banknotes. As far as I know, noone has used it to block reproduction of anything other than money.

tobyjsullivan 8mo ago
No idea why this comment is getting downvoted so hard. This was exactly what I thought of too, and it provides a concrete answer to the question. There’s valid concern with these types of laws and scope creep. But there’s also precedent which shows they can work and be applied reasonably.
rustyhancock 8mo ago
Is this true? Couldn't I put the mark on a page of my book and photocopiers would still detect and refuse to copy that page?
- ErroneousBosh 8mo ago
  Yes, absolutely. It's a pattern of five rings, well-documented although Omron appears to keep the exact details pretty tightly held. They don't have to be exact circles, they just have to be some dots in about the right place. In the UK, the Bank of England issued notes with Elgar on them and the EURion constellation picked out in musical notes ;-)
Arch-TK 8mo ago
EURion marks are a feature you must include on your banknote for it to even be considered real. And it's _one_ feature. It's relatively trivial to make a chip which can detect their presence. On the other hand, if I need a replacement part for something, it's unlikely I will find the manufacturer giving me models for it. And if a manufacturer is giving me models for it, they probably do so with the explicit expectation that I might end up using them to manufacture a replacement. In most cases either me or some other volunteer will need to measure the existing part, write down all the critical measurements, and then design a new part from scratch in CAD. Even if somehow you are able to fingerprint on those critical measurements, that's just _one_ part. The only way this kind of nonsense law could work is if you mandate that 3D printers must not accept commands from an untrusted source (signature verification) and then you must have software which uses a database to check for such critical measurements, ideally _before_ slicing. Except that still doesn't work because I can always post-process a part to fit. And it doesn't work even more because the software will need to contain a signing key. Unless the signing key is on a remote server somewhere to which you must send your model for validation. This is never going to work, or scale. There are even more hurdles... I can design and build a 3D printer from scratch and manufacture it using non-CNC machined parts at home. A working, high quality 3D printer. Where are you going to force me to put the locks? Are you going to require me to show my ID when buying stepper motors and stepper motor drivers? What about other kinds of manufacturing (that these laws, at least the Washington State ones, also cover)? Will you ban old hardware? What about a milling machine? Are you going to ban non-CNC mills? These are the most ignorant laws made by the most ignorant people. The easiest way to ban people from manufacturing their own guns is to ban manufacture of your own guns. But again, this is a complete non-issue in the US where you can probably get a gun illegally more easily than you can 3D print something half as reliable.

2muchcoffeeman 8mo ago

Too bad everyone jumped shipped to Bambuu Labs. If only we still had open source hardware.

dns_snek 8mo ago
We do still have open source hardware but that's the last line of defense against actions like this, not the first. They'll target distribution which will affect open source and proprietary hardware equally. You need to kill this sort of legislation in its crib.
- bradfa 8mo ago
  Just print the code to do what ever is disallowed on a t-shirt, ala DVDCSS. Is that not a legitimate way around things like this?
- Brian_K_White 8mo ago
  You need both, because there really is no such thing as kill it in it's crib. The people that want this will continue to want it forever, and will continue to propose it forever. And eventually it works.
  - kiba 8mo ago
    Nothing is forever. This whole thing rose in the first place because a novel technology was used to make weapons. To give another example, the whole modern anti-vaxxer movement was started by a doctor to sell bogus tests.
  - no_wizard 8mo ago
    The missing the third ingredient which is passing rollback resistant legislation in its place that protects these freedoms. That makes efforts far more durable. Than it’s a matter of showing up in court to defend attacks against the law(s) that protect it. In this way, we can have durable change, but it’s a high cost road. By design I am sure.
  - dns_snek 8mo ago

passwordoops 8mo ago

IP/BigCo lawyers are probably the main lobbyists behind this article in the bill so I would think soonish

laylower 8mo ago

This is part of the wider problem and heavily relates to the right to repair Cory talked about this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39jsstmmUUs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39jsstmmUUs

PunchyHamster 8mo ago

probably about 6 months after people start screaming about the issue

dmux 8mo ago

I wonder if you could circumvent this by adding a thin appendage to whatever it was you're printing and then just snip it off post-print.

hedora 8mo ago

It’ll happen the day this bill is passed. If they cared even a little bit about gun violence, they’d focus on mental health and other preventive measures. If they just wanted to provide the illusion that they cared about gun violence, they’d go after high-volume manufacturers first. This reminds me of Trump’s Venezuela coup. I’m offended they aren’t even bothering to properly lie about their motives.