7 ms·

If true, unlikely to help the working poor flying (or attempting to fly) because recourse to courts here is in the realms of the rich or benificent. So, Fromme

by ggm 9mo ago

If true, unlikely to help the working poor flying (or attempting to fly) because recourse to courts here is in the realms of the rich or benificent. So, Frommers should fund a test case.

toomuchtodo 9mo ago
It’s annoying we don’t offer passport cards for free to people as a national government credential. The cost is similar to this fee, and your app and photo could be taken by TSA right at the checkpoint. You head to your flight after identity proofed, and your passport card could then be mailed to you. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/need-passport/card.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/need-pa...
- ggm 9mo ago
  You could even double them up as government issued voter-ID and save all that hassle every 4 years. Or the current round of random stop-and-search going on...
  - lotsofpulp 9mo ago
    And also provide an API for online services to use so we are not beholden to Alphabet and Apple. And while they’re at it, provide an electronic money account that allows for free and instant transfers. But then how would we waste so many societal resources letting investors profit from basic infrastructure?
    - ggm 9mo ago
      I'm sure some young guns from a techbro company would love to dive into the data lake and make a proposal. They might need to take a few reels of tape away for offsite analysis, but don't worry..
      - lotsofpulp 9mo ago
        The reels of tape already exist at Apple/Alphabet/Tmobile/ATT/Verizon/Meta/Microsoft/Chase/BoA/etc, subject to secret FISA warrants. What difference does it make?
    - secabeen 9mo ago
      > But then how would we waste so many societal resources letting investors profit from basic infrastructure? That, and Millenarian Christians would object to its being a required "mark of the beast." That bit from Revelations has held us back for quite a while.
  - dghlsakjg 9mo ago
    The people eligible for passports are not the same group of people eligible for voter id since there are a few jurisdictions where non-citizens can vote in certain elections. Voting is also a responsibility of the states (even at the federal level), so there isn't really such thing as a federal voter id since each state has different eligibility requirements for voters that don't necessarily align with passport eligibility. Additionally, passport cards aren't interchangeable with passports in most countries. Also, every four years? Elections happen more or less constantly in this country at some level or another. Federal elections are every two years, BTW, and that's if we ignore special elections for federal candidates. You should learn more about the system you live in. The current round of stop-and-search would be enabled by making passport cards or some form of universal id. The current legal reality is that you do not need to prove your citizenship on demand if you are already in the US as a citizen. The burden of proof - rightly in my opinion - lies with the government to prove that you are not a citizen. Frankly, I'm quite uncomfortable with "paper's please" entering the US law enforcement repertoire. The fourth amendment was pretty clear about this. With the CBP using mere presence validated by facial id only at legally protected protests as reason to withdraw Global Entry enrollment, it seems more and more clear that we do not need to be giving more power to the people who do not understand the 4th and first amendments. Removing people from Global Entry for protected first speech is, afaict, directly in violation of the first amendment even if Global Entry is a "privilege"
    - ehasbrouck 9mo ago
      FWIW, REAL-ID is not about U.S. citizenship: A passport issued by any country is considered "compliant" with the REAL-ID Act for air travel or any other purpose, regardless of the person's U.S. immigration status. Some politicians seem to have deluded themselves to think that requiring REAL-ID will stop "illegal aliens" from flying. But it won't. Many foreigners in the U.S. (regardless of U.S. immigration status) have an easier time getting REAL-ID (a passport from their country of citizenship) than some U.S. citizens.
      - dghlsakjg 9mo ago
        My comment was addressing passport cards as a national ID and voter ID.
  - umeshunni 9mo ago
    "government issued voter-ID" Gasp! Checking for IDs while voting is fascist! It's like Germany 1937.
- jimktrains2 9mo ago
  ~~~While it's not a passport, I believe most states have free id cards that are "realid" compliant.~~~ Edit: I'm wrong.
  - astura 9mo ago
    Exactly zero states give you real IDs for free.
  - WarOnPrivacy 9mo ago
    > I believe most states have free id cards that are "realid" compliant. None in the mid-Atlantic or SE that I've seen. Some states offer free gov docs under limited programs, eg:unaccompanied homeless youth.
    - jimktrains2 9mo ago
      I stand corrected, at least in Pennsylvania (1). I misremembering the issues surrounding requiring Id to vote. The law that was struck down did provide a free id that would have been suitable for voting; however, that isn't required and no longer exists, and there was no mention I could find of if it would have been realid compliant.(2) (1) https://www.pa.gov/agencies/dmv/resources/payments-and-fees https://www.pa.gov/agencies/dmv/resources/payments-and-fees (2) Applewhite v. Commonwealth https://pubintlaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Voter-ID-Final-Order.pdf https://pubintlaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Voter-ID-Fi...
      - strbean 9mo ago
        Scanning https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/real-id/ https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/real-id/ I'm not sure there is a single state that provides ID without a fee of some sort, across the board.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- ibejoeb 9mo ago
  It is, but I think that's a separate issue. There's no authorization, let alone a mandate, to prove identity to move about. The mission, ostensibly, is to make air travel safe by ensuring that passengers don't bring dangerous items onto the plane. It's not to track who is going where.
  - 0xCMP 9mo ago
    I didn't personally experience it (I was too young), but I think that was part of "the mission" since pre-9/11. The point of the ID check is to make sure the boarding ticket and ID match. In effect that tracks who is going where.
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
  - kube-system 9mo ago
    > The mission, ostensibly, is to make air travel safe by ensuring that passengers don't bring dangerous items onto the plane. No, it is to make it safe for any reason, which goes beyond whether or not they brought box cutters.
    - ibejoeb 9mo ago
      Ok, I'll concede that. That boils down to someone bringing something on the plane that can be used to cause trouble.
      - kube-system 9mo ago
        That could be... themselves.
        ibejoeb 9mo ago
        You're right. I vaguely remember a faux hijacking (or a real hijacking but not with the intent to do harm) wherein an unarmed man caused a flight diversion to seek asylum in Italy. He entered the cockpit while the door was open for service. I don't remember the details, but now I'm very curious if identification would have resulted in successful interdiction. It certainly would not have prevented 9/11 since those perps were known to both domestic and foreign intelligence. So what do we do? To bring it back to the root question: how does REAL ID mitigate these threats?
raw_anon_1111 9mo ago
How many of the “working poor” can afford to fly and don’t have a drivers license? All 50 states and 5 US territories issue RealID compliant drivers license/ID
- stonogo 9mo ago
  RealID licenses cost extra where I live. Your job can buy you a plane ticket but they can't get you through TSA.
  - umeshunni 9mo ago
    If your job wants you to fly, it should buy you an id that lets you fly. Have you never applied for a visa to travel on a business trip?
    - stonogo 9mo ago
      yes, if there's one thing the working poor are known for, it's successfully extracting money from their employers. if uber wants you to rideshare, they should buy you a car, right?
      - raw_anon_1111 9mo ago
        How many “working poor” have jobs that require business travel?
        stonogo 9mo ago
        If the answer is more than "zero" then the fee is harmful. Since I've been in similar positions (specifically as a contractor, where I had to front-load expenses and submit for reimbursement), it seems pretty likely to me.
        raw_anon_1111 9mo ago
        Yes so we are going to optimize an entire system for this mythical “working poor” business traveler? Every contractor has to do that. That’s the price you pay for going into that business (reason #999 thet while I work in cloud consulting I work full time for consulting companies). Even as a business traveler, I have to pay my own expenses and wait for reimbursement.
Der_Einzige 9mo ago
The poor trying to fly is exactly why economy and even "premium economy" seating sucks and is getting worse for everyone else not is business class.
- saagarjha 9mo ago
  Would be nice if we could get rid of them, eh?
  - Der_Einzige 9mo ago
    I sure do want to get rid of the entire concept of "economy" class. If all seats were business class, than economics of scale would kick in and average ticket prices would be more like 2X per seat rather than the 5-10X that you pay for business class vs economy. Flying is a war-crime in the sky for anyone not in business class.
    - saagarjha 9mo ago
      You must have a very different idea than I do of “economics of scale” if your idea is to make every ticket cost more so fewer people can afford it.

by ggm 9mo ago

If true, unlikely to help the working poor flying (or attempting to fly) because recourse to courts here is in the realms of the rich or benificent. So, Frommers should fund a test case.

toomuchtodo 9mo ago

It’s annoying we don’t offer passport cards for free to people as a national government credential. The cost is similar to this fee, and your app and photo could be taken by TSA right at the checkpoint. You head to your flight after identity proofed, and your passport card could then be mailed to you. https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/need-passport/card.html https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/need-pa...

ggm 9mo ago
You could even double them up as government issued voter-ID and save all that hassle every 4 years. Or the current round of random stop-and-search going on...
- lotsofpulp 9mo ago
  And also provide an API for online services to use so we are not beholden to Alphabet and Apple. And while they’re at it, provide an electronic money account that allows for free and instant transfers. But then how would we waste so many societal resources letting investors profit from basic infrastructure?
  - ggm 9mo ago
    I'm sure some young guns from a techbro company would love to dive into the data lake and make a proposal. They might need to take a few reels of tape away for offsite analysis, but don't worry..
    - lotsofpulp 9mo ago
      The reels of tape already exist at Apple/Alphabet/Tmobile/ATT/Verizon/Meta/Microsoft/Chase/BoA/etc, subject to secret FISA warrants. What difference does it make?
  - secabeen 9mo ago
    > But then how would we waste so many societal resources letting investors profit from basic infrastructure? That, and Millenarian Christians would object to its being a required "mark of the beast." That bit from Revelations has held us back for quite a while.
- dghlsakjg 9mo ago
  The people eligible for passports are not the same group of people eligible for voter id since there are a few jurisdictions where non-citizens can vote in certain elections. Voting is also a responsibility of the states (even at the federal level), so there isn't really such thing as a federal voter id since each state has different eligibility requirements for voters that don't necessarily align with passport eligibility. Additionally, passport cards aren't interchangeable with passports in most countries. Also, every four years? Elections happen more or less constantly in this country at some level or another. Federal elections are every two years, BTW, and that's if we ignore special elections for federal candidates. You should learn more about the system you live in. The current round of stop-and-search would be enabled by making passport cards or some form of universal id. The current legal reality is that you do not need to prove your citizenship on demand if you are already in the US as a citizen. The burden of proof - rightly in my opinion - lies with the government to prove that you are not a citizen. Frankly, I'm quite uncomfortable with "paper's please" entering the US law enforcement repertoire. The fourth amendment was pretty clear about this. With the CBP using mere presence validated by facial id only at legally protected protests as reason to withdraw Global Entry enrollment, it seems more and more clear that we do not need to be giving more power to the people who do not understand the 4th and first amendments. Removing people from Global Entry for protected first speech is, afaict, directly in violation of the first amendment even if Global Entry is a "privilege"
  - ehasbrouck 9mo ago
    FWIW, REAL-ID is not about U.S. citizenship: A passport issued by any country is considered "compliant" with the REAL-ID Act for air travel or any other purpose, regardless of the person's U.S. immigration status. Some politicians seem to have deluded themselves to think that requiring REAL-ID will stop "illegal aliens" from flying. But it won't. Many foreigners in the U.S. (regardless of U.S. immigration status) have an easier time getting REAL-ID (a passport from their country of citizenship) than some U.S. citizens.
    - dghlsakjg 9mo ago
      My comment was addressing passport cards as a national ID and voter ID.
- umeshunni 9mo ago
  "government issued voter-ID" Gasp! Checking for IDs while voting is fascist! It's like Germany 1937.
jimktrains2 9mo ago
~~~While it's not a passport, I believe most states have free id cards that are "realid" compliant.~~~ Edit: I'm wrong.
- astura 9mo ago
  Exactly zero states give you real IDs for free.
- WarOnPrivacy 9mo ago
  > I believe most states have free id cards that are "realid" compliant. None in the mid-Atlantic or SE that I've seen. Some states offer free gov docs under limited programs, eg:unaccompanied homeless youth.
  - jimktrains2 9mo ago
    I stand corrected, at least in Pennsylvania (1). I misremembering the issues surrounding requiring Id to vote. The law that was struck down did provide a free id that would have been suitable for voting; however, that isn't required and no longer exists, and there was no mention I could find of if it would have been realid compliant.(2) (1) https://www.pa.gov/agencies/dmv/resources/payments-and-fees https://www.pa.gov/agencies/dmv/resources/payments-and-fees (2) Applewhite v. Commonwealth https://pubintlaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Voter-ID-Final-Order.pdf https://pubintlaw.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Voter-ID-Fi...
    - strbean 9mo ago
      Scanning https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/real-id/ https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/real-id/ I'm not sure there is a single state that provides ID without a fee of some sort, across the board.
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
ibejoeb 9mo ago
It is, but I think that's a separate issue. There's no authorization, let alone a mandate, to prove identity to move about. The mission, ostensibly, is to make air travel safe by ensuring that passengers don't bring dangerous items onto the plane. It's not to track who is going where.
- 0xCMP 9mo ago
  I didn't personally experience it (I was too young), but I think that was part of "the mission" since pre-9/11. The point of the ID check is to make sure the boarding ticket and ID match. In effect that tracks who is going where.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
- kube-system 9mo ago
  > The mission, ostensibly, is to make air travel safe by ensuring that passengers don't bring dangerous items onto the plane. No, it is to make it safe for any reason, which goes beyond whether or not they brought box cutters.
  - ibejoeb 9mo ago
    Ok, I'll concede that. That boils down to someone bringing something on the plane that can be used to cause trouble.
    - kube-system 9mo ago
      That could be... themselves.
      - ibejoeb 9mo ago
        You're right. I vaguely remember a faux hijacking (or a real hijacking but not with the intent to do harm) wherein an unarmed man caused a flight diversion to seek asylum in Italy. He entered the cockpit while the door was open for service. I don't remember the details, but now I'm very curious if identification would have resulted in successful interdiction. It certainly would not have prevented 9/11 since those perps were known to both domestic and foreign intelligence. So what do we do? To bring it back to the root question: how does REAL ID mitigate these threats?

raw_anon_1111 9mo ago

How many of the “working poor” can afford to fly and don’t have a drivers license? All 50 states and 5 US territories issue RealID compliant drivers license/ID

stonogo 9mo ago
RealID licenses cost extra where I live. Your job can buy you a plane ticket but they can't get you through TSA.
- umeshunni 9mo ago
  If your job wants you to fly, it should buy you an id that lets you fly. Have you never applied for a visa to travel on a business trip?
  - stonogo 9mo ago
    yes, if there's one thing the working poor are known for, it's successfully extracting money from their employers. if uber wants you to rideshare, they should buy you a car, right?
    - raw_anon_1111 9mo ago
      How many “working poor” have jobs that require business travel?
      - stonogo 9mo ago
        If the answer is more than "zero" then the fee is harmful. Since I've been in similar positions (specifically as a contractor, where I had to front-load expenses and submit for reimbursement), it seems pretty likely to me.
        raw_anon_1111 9mo ago
        Yes so we are going to optimize an entire system for this mythical “working poor” business traveler? Every contractor has to do that. That’s the price you pay for going into that business (reason #999 thet while I work in cloud consulting I work full time for consulting companies). Even as a business traveler, I have to pay my own expenses and wait for reimbursement.

Der_Einzige 9mo ago

The poor trying to fly is exactly why economy and even "premium economy" seating sucks and is getting worse for everyone else not is business class.

saagarjha 9mo ago
Would be nice if we could get rid of them, eh?
- Der_Einzige 9mo ago
  I sure do want to get rid of the entire concept of "economy" class. If all seats were business class, than economics of scale would kick in and average ticket prices would be more like 2X per seat rather than the 5-10X that you pay for business class vs economy. Flying is a war-crime in the sky for anyone not in business class.
  - saagarjha 9mo ago
    You must have a very different idea than I do of “economics of scale” if your idea is to make every ticket cost more so fewer people can afford it.