3 ms·

I feel like the OP was so close to the epiphany that meaning and utility are orthogonal values, but then they retreated back to the safe ground of avoid-efficie

I feel like the OP was so close to the epiphany that meaning and utility are orthogonal values, but then they retreated back to the safe ground of avoid-efficiency-if-you-want-meaning. They talked about it with knitting: obviously, buying yarn is a time-saving efficiency compared to spinning your own, but that didn't destroy the meaning of the gift. Nevertheless, if I spent time spinning my own yarn and gifting it to my mother, I bet she would find it meaningful. Similarly, they talk about how they could use a mechanical knitter to save time, but that would reduce the meaning. I think that depends. If I designed a beautiful pattern and then used a mechanical knitter to create a blanket, I bet my mom would find it meaningful. The epiphany is that meaning doesn't come from how hard I work. It comes from personal relationship and how my actions interact with that relationship. If I knew my mom was looking for a specific, somewhat rare purse, and one day I happened to find it at a yard sale and give it to her, that would be a meaningful gift, regardless of how much effort it took me. Meaning is not an intrinsic quality of objects. It is not an arrangement of atoms or a quantum field. You can't see meaning in a microscope. Meaning is only in our heads. And because it is only in our heads, AI can't destroy it. AI is just a tool, like a mechanical knitter or a jackhammer. Sure, maybe not all tools are equally useful for creating meaning, but no one ever worried that meaning was under threat because jackhammers got invented. AI is no different.

siavosh 9mo ago
It’s interesting—playing devil’s advocate on the purse example, I’m not sure I’d actually call that meaningful. It’s certainly a kind and thoughtful gift, but meaningful? What if meaning isn’t only about the relationship or the recipient’s satisfaction, but also about what the gift costs the giver in terms of personal value? In the yard-sale case, the purse may be rare to the mom, but it’s essentially cheap and disposable to the giver. Nothing important was surrendered. By contrast, giving something you personally prize—or investing yourself in a way that reflects what you value—seems to carry a different kind of meaning. I’m not claiming effort alone creates meaning, but that the giver’s valuation of what’s given might be a missing dimension in this framework
- GMoromisato 9mo ago
  You're not wrong--there seems to be some connection between effort and meaning. But I don't think it's that simple. For example, imagine I go to Starbucks and buy my mom a branded mug. Meaningful? Probably not. Now imagine that I drive 8 hours across state lines to a Starbucks and buy my mom a branded mug. It's still not meaningful even though I made a huge effort. The effort itself has the be meaningful! It can't be effort for effort's sake. The effort has to produce something that could not be obtained without effort. But that means it's not the effort that counts--it's getting something that could not be obtained otherwise.
  - ares623 9mo ago
    I think the word you are looking for is "intent". Effort + intent = meaning.
ares623 9mo ago
Value is up to the receiver, not the giver. The purse can be meaningful because of the implication that you remembered a small detail for an extended period of time. “Aww you remembered”. The AI equivalent would be to ask your personal assistant to find the purse for you and you keep it hidden for an extended period to pretend you remembered. In both cases your mom will be touched by the gesture.

siavosh 9mo ago

It’s interesting—playing devil’s advocate on the purse example, I’m not sure I’d actually call that meaningful. It’s certainly a kind and thoughtful gift, but meaningful? What if meaning isn’t only about the relationship or the recipient’s satisfaction, but also about what the gift costs the giver in terms of personal value? In the yard-sale case, the purse may be rare to the mom, but it’s essentially cheap and disposable to the giver. Nothing important was surrendered. By contrast, giving something you personally prize—or investing yourself in a way that reflects what you value—seems to carry a different kind of meaning. I’m not claiming effort alone creates meaning, but that the giver’s valuation of what’s given might be a missing dimension in this framework

GMoromisato 9mo ago
You're not wrong--there seems to be some connection between effort and meaning. But I don't think it's that simple. For example, imagine I go to Starbucks and buy my mom a branded mug. Meaningful? Probably not. Now imagine that I drive 8 hours across state lines to a Starbucks and buy my mom a branded mug. It's still not meaningful even though I made a huge effort. The effort itself has the be meaningful! It can't be effort for effort's sake. The effort has to produce something that could not be obtained without effort. But that means it's not the effort that counts--it's getting something that could not be obtained otherwise.
- ares623 9mo ago
  I think the word you are looking for is "intent". Effort + intent = meaning.

ares623 9mo ago

Value is up to the receiver, not the giver. The purse can be meaningful because of the implication that you remembered a small detail for an extended period of time. “Aww you remembered”. The AI equivalent would be to ask your personal assistant to find the purse for you and you keep it hidden for an extended period to pretend you remembered. In both cases your mom will be touched by the gesture.