4 ms·

> This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there. Are you sure it's this kind of thinking that's at fault? I would've said that it's

by azan_ 9mo ago

> This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there. Are you sure it's this kind of thinking that's at fault? I would've said that it's actually caused by giving people without training and any serious screening extreme power with absolutely zero accountability. Would love to hear your take on this though.

charcircuit 9mo ago
Yes, I am sure it plays a factor, giving people justification for their actions. The issue is that restoring order is not easy. And when the people making disorder are antagonistic to the people restoring order that clash leads to unfortunate scenarios. Lack of training (specifically direct experience of dealing with such behavior) or screening plays a role in how order is restored but these are reactive actions. In my mind everyone would be better off if we all maintained order so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place.
- azan_ 9mo ago
  > In my mind everyone would be better off if we all maintained order so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place. In my mind everyone would be better off if current incarnation of ICE was disbanded so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place. You've completely switched cause and effect - ICE behavior is the CAUSE of protests, not the effect!
  - charcircuit 9mo ago
    Nothing can justify disorderly protests. I don't care about what caused someone to break the law. I care that law is enforced.
    - defrost 9mo ago
      Good to hear you're onboard with prosecuting Federal agents pretending to have local traffic enforcement powers and murdering citizens during illegal traffic stops. Currently the Federal level is blocking the State prosecuting such clear breaches of the law.
      - zahlman 9mo ago
        > Good to hear you're onboard with prosecuting Federal agents pretending to have local traffic enforcement powers and murdering citizens during illegal traffic stops. Approaching a vehicle that is already stopped, perpendicular to traffic, initially to tell the driver to move and then to make an arrest for obstruction of justice, is not a "traffic stop", and the agents in question therefore did not in any way "pretend to have local traffic enforcement powers". ICE are legally entitled to require protesters to get out of their way. That's a consequence of them being federal LEO, and of federal law prohibiting everyone from obstructing LEO (which includes things like physically shielding others from arrest, impeding their movement towards whatever place they need to get to to do their job, etc.). Protesting and asserting 1A rights is not a defense to the charge of obstruction of justice.
    - azan_ 9mo ago
      > Nothing can justify disorderly protests. I don't care about what caused someone to break the law. I care that law is enforced. But you do care what caused someone to break the law - you just said that if breaking the law (murdering someone) was for keeping order then it's ok. It's very easy to see that you agree with enforcing "law" just because you agree with current administration (otherwise it's very hard to argue that what ICE is doing has anything to do with being lawful).
    - pbhjpbhj 9mo ago
      Obviously rushing to the aid of a fellow human who was assaulted by a masked person for no reason other than to act out that person's longing for violence might be "disorderly" to you. To the rest of us it's called compassionate, human, democratic. It isn't against any written law in USA, any law passed by a democratic legislative body. You have no care for the law nor for humanity. You're supporting summary execution by a stasi; you seriously need to step back and reconsider your belief system.
    - TheCoelacanth 9mo ago
      "Disorderly" protests are protected by the first amendment. No justification is needed. That is the law. Enforce that law and stop ICE from harassing people just for exercising their fundamental rights.
- pbhjpbhj 9mo ago
  The people "making disorder" are operating democratically within the former USA constitution. Those you consider to be bringing order are arbitrarily enacting violence against citizens and other people in ways that break the law and Constitution; and which are outlawed in all moral societies. Sure, strict conformance to a dictators whims is a form of order, but if you seek that sort of order in your life you should look for a dom and not attempt to impose it on others. The clashes do not have to happen. Trump's Regime can be removed, habeas corpus resurrected, and the Constitution re-implemented. Your mind appears to wear jackboots.

by azan_ 9mo ago

charcircuit 9mo ago

Yes, I am sure it plays a factor, giving people justification for their actions. The issue is that restoring order is not easy. And when the people making disorder are antagonistic to the people restoring order that clash leads to unfortunate scenarios. Lack of training (specifically direct experience of dealing with such behavior) or screening plays a role in how order is restored but these are reactive actions. In my mind everyone would be better off if we all maintained order so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place.

azan_ 9mo ago
> In my mind everyone would be better off if we all maintained order so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place. In my mind everyone would be better off if current incarnation of ICE was disbanded so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place. You've completely switched cause and effect - ICE behavior is the CAUSE of protests, not the effect!
- charcircuit 9mo ago
  Nothing can justify disorderly protests. I don't care about what caused someone to break the law. I care that law is enforced.
  - defrost 9mo ago
    Good to hear you're onboard with prosecuting Federal agents pretending to have local traffic enforcement powers and murdering citizens during illegal traffic stops. Currently the Federal level is blocking the State prosecuting such clear breaches of the law.
    - zahlman 9mo ago
      > Good to hear you're onboard with prosecuting Federal agents pretending to have local traffic enforcement powers and murdering citizens during illegal traffic stops. Approaching a vehicle that is already stopped, perpendicular to traffic, initially to tell the driver to move and then to make an arrest for obstruction of justice, is not a "traffic stop", and the agents in question therefore did not in any way "pretend to have local traffic enforcement powers". ICE are legally entitled to require protesters to get out of their way. That's a consequence of them being federal LEO, and of federal law prohibiting everyone from obstructing LEO (which includes things like physically shielding others from arrest, impeding their movement towards whatever place they need to get to to do their job, etc.). Protesting and asserting 1A rights is not a defense to the charge of obstruction of justice.
  - azan_ 9mo ago
    > Nothing can justify disorderly protests. I don't care about what caused someone to break the law. I care that law is enforced. But you do care what caused someone to break the law - you just said that if breaking the law (murdering someone) was for keeping order then it's ok. It's very easy to see that you agree with enforcing "law" just because you agree with current administration (otherwise it's very hard to argue that what ICE is doing has anything to do with being lawful).
  - pbhjpbhj 9mo ago
    Obviously rushing to the aid of a fellow human who was assaulted by a masked person for no reason other than to act out that person's longing for violence might be "disorderly" to you. To the rest of us it's called compassionate, human, democratic. It isn't against any written law in USA, any law passed by a democratic legislative body. You have no care for the law nor for humanity. You're supporting summary execution by a stasi; you seriously need to step back and reconsider your belief system.
  - TheCoelacanth 9mo ago
    "Disorderly" protests are protected by the first amendment. No justification is needed. That is the law. Enforce that law and stop ICE from harassing people just for exercising their fundamental rights.
pbhjpbhj 9mo ago
The people "making disorder" are operating democratically within the former USA constitution. Those you consider to be bringing order are arbitrarily enacting violence against citizens and other people in ways that break the law and Constitution; and which are outlawed in all moral societies. Sure, strict conformance to a dictators whims is a form of order, but if you seek that sort of order in your life you should look for a dom and not attempt to impose it on others. The clashes do not have to happen. Trump's Regime can be removed, habeas corpus resurrected, and the Constitution re-implemented. Your mind appears to wear jackboots.