5 ms·

> This is such a low probability scenario how is it a low probability scenario? it's happened before, in living memory (there are still people alive that surv

by blibble 8mo ago

> This is such a low probability scenario how is it a low probability scenario? it's happened before, in living memory (there are still people alive that survived the holocaust) and you're seeing the early stages of despotic rule literally today in Minnesota

charcircuit 8mo ago
There weren't ex post facto laws being passed during the holocaust. >the early stages of despotic rule literally today in Minnesota This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there.
- blibble 8mo ago
  > There weren't ex post facto laws being passed during the holocaust. the argument isn't that states can't create ex-post facto laws (even though they can, see: any country with parliamentary sovereignty) it's that what the law says doesn't matter when the executive no is longer bound by the rule of law see: the United States under the Trump regime the fact that some previous legislature has passed a law saying that "using the gay/jewish/disabled/... database for bad things is illegal" is of no consequence when the state already has the database and has no interest in upholding the rule of law
  - charcircuit 8mo ago
    No, this argument is about the database of past events being prosecuted in the future. >"using the gay/jewish/disabled/... database for bad things is illegal" If it is legal than I want to be able to use such a database as it makes law enforcement more efficient. It gets rid of inefficiency in the government. Wanting such inefficiency is wanting to allow for unlawful behavior. It's the whole using privacy as an excuse to hide from the government.
    - blibble 8mo ago
      asinine logic
    - wat10000 8mo ago
      I do want to allow for unlawful behavior. Not all laws are just.
- azan_ 8mo ago
  > This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there. Are you sure it's this kind of thinking that's at fault? I would've said that it's actually caused by giving people without training and any serious screening extreme power with absolutely zero accountability. Would love to hear your take on this though.
  - charcircuit 8mo ago
    Yes, I am sure it plays a factor, giving people justification for their actions. The issue is that restoring order is not easy. And when the people making disorder are antagonistic to the people restoring order that clash leads to unfortunate scenarios. Lack of training (specifically direct experience of dealing with such behavior) or screening plays a role in how order is restored but these are reactive actions. In my mind everyone would be better off if we all maintained order so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place.
    - azan_ 8mo ago
      > In my mind everyone would be better off if we all maintained order so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place. In my mind everyone would be better off if current incarnation of ICE was disbanded so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place. You've completely switched cause and effect - ICE behavior is the CAUSE of protests, not the effect!
      - charcircuit 8mo ago
        Nothing can justify disorderly protests. I don't care about what caused someone to break the law. I care that law is enforced.
        defrost 8mo ago
        Good to hear you're onboard with prosecuting Federal agents pretending to have local traffic enforcement powers and murdering citizens during illegal traffic stops. Currently the Federal level is blocking the State prosecuting such clear breaches of the law.
- cthalupa 8mo ago
  > This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there. Yes, we are seeing a destruction of order in MN. US citizens being terrorized by ICE and CBP agents with 47 days of training, no understanding of the legal limits of their authority, and no consequences when they go beyond those limits. But that's not being caused by people pushing back against the beginnings of autocracy. That's being caused by the people who want to become autocrats.
  - charcircuit 8mo ago
    ICE is bringing order to the country as they are law enforcement.
    - pcj-github 8mo ago
      [flagged]
      - donkeybeer 8mo ago
        This guy's one of those I called genetically incapable of freedom. I have seen him in the past claiming he works in his free time out of his own wish to create locked down computing devices. Imagine what kind of person does that out of genuine desire instead of being paid a good sum by a FAANG for.
    - cthalupa 8mo ago
      ICE's remit is dealing with immigration. They are not general purpose law enforcement, despite this administration seemingly using them as such. But that's also not really the point, so we can even presume they are, because the root of the argument is the same either way. Just having a title or being ordered to do something by a politician does not automatically mean they are bringing order to the country. There is a reason the founding fathers set the country up the way they did, with multiple checks and balances, separate branches, etc. They went out of their way to make it that no one branch would have unlimited power. That means that order in this country fundamentally is based on those checks and balances being adhered to. Any unilateral shift away from that is fundamentally pulling us into a more disordered state. I wish seances were a thing because I would love to hear the founders' take on "Masked men ordered here by a unitary executive branch detain and arrest random people including US citizens for the purpose of making sure they are here legally, while also using a private ledger to determine where the citizen's legally recognized documents are valid." But we can go even more fundamentally than that: The label on a thing does not make it the thing. They can call themselves law enforcement while still breaking the law. It happens to real law enforcement all the time - cops can and do get punished for crimes they commit, at least sometimes.

by blibble 8mo ago

charcircuit 8mo ago

There weren't ex post facto laws being passed during the holocaust. >the early stages of despotic rule literally today in Minnesota This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there.

blibble 8mo ago
> There weren't ex post facto laws being passed during the holocaust. the argument isn't that states can't create ex-post facto laws (even though they can, see: any country with parliamentary sovereignty) it's that what the law says doesn't matter when the executive no is longer bound by the rule of law see: the United States under the Trump regime the fact that some previous legislature has passed a law saying that "using the gay/jewish/disabled/... database for bad things is illegal" is of no consequence when the state already has the database and has no interest in upholding the rule of law
- charcircuit 8mo ago
  No, this argument is about the database of past events being prosecuted in the future. >"using the gay/jewish/disabled/... database for bad things is illegal" If it is legal than I want to be able to use such a database as it makes law enforcement more efficient. It gets rid of inefficiency in the government. Wanting such inefficiency is wanting to allow for unlawful behavior. It's the whole using privacy as an excuse to hide from the government.
  - blibble 8mo ago
    asinine logic
  - wat10000 8mo ago
    I do want to allow for unlawful behavior. Not all laws are just.
azan_ 8mo ago
> This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there. Are you sure it's this kind of thinking that's at fault? I would've said that it's actually caused by giving people without training and any serious screening extreme power with absolutely zero accountability. Would love to hear your take on this though.
- charcircuit 8mo ago
  Yes, I am sure it plays a factor, giving people justification for their actions. The issue is that restoring order is not easy. And when the people making disorder are antagonistic to the people restoring order that clash leads to unfortunate scenarios. Lack of training (specifically direct experience of dealing with such behavior) or screening plays a role in how order is restored but these are reactive actions. In my mind everyone would be better off if we all maintained order so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place.
  - azan_ 8mo ago
    > In my mind everyone would be better off if we all maintained order so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place. In my mind everyone would be better off if current incarnation of ICE was disbanded so these clashes didn't have to happen in the first place. You've completely switched cause and effect - ICE behavior is the CAUSE of protests, not the effect!
    - charcircuit 8mo ago
      Nothing can justify disorderly protests. I don't care about what caused someone to break the law. I care that law is enforced.
      - defrost 8mo ago
        Good to hear you're onboard with prosecuting Federal agents pretending to have local traffic enforcement powers and murdering citizens during illegal traffic stops. Currently the Federal level is blocking the State prosecuting such clear breaches of the law.
cthalupa 8mo ago
> This type of thinking is what is leading to the destruction of order there. Yes, we are seeing a destruction of order in MN. US citizens being terrorized by ICE and CBP agents with 47 days of training, no understanding of the legal limits of their authority, and no consequences when they go beyond those limits. But that's not being caused by people pushing back against the beginnings of autocracy. That's being caused by the people who want to become autocrats.
- charcircuit 8mo ago
  ICE is bringing order to the country as they are law enforcement.
  - pcj-github 8mo ago
    [flagged]
    - donkeybeer 8mo ago
      This guy's one of those I called genetically incapable of freedom. I have seen him in the past claiming he works in his free time out of his own wish to create locked down computing devices. Imagine what kind of person does that out of genuine desire instead of being paid a good sum by a FAANG for.
  - cthalupa 8mo ago
    ICE's remit is dealing with immigration. They are not general purpose law enforcement, despite this administration seemingly using them as such. But that's also not really the point, so we can even presume they are, because the root of the argument is the same either way. Just having a title or being ordered to do something by a politician does not automatically mean they are bringing order to the country. There is a reason the founding fathers set the country up the way they did, with multiple checks and balances, separate branches, etc. They went out of their way to make it that no one branch would have unlimited power. That means that order in this country fundamentally is based on those checks and balances being adhered to. Any unilateral shift away from that is fundamentally pulling us into a more disordered state. I wish seances were a thing because I would love to hear the founders' take on "Masked men ordered here by a unitary executive branch detain and arrest random people including US citizens for the purpose of making sure they are here legally, while also using a private ledger to determine where the citizen's legally recognized documents are valid." But we can go even more fundamentally than that: The label on a thing does not make it the thing. They can call themselves law enforcement while still breaking the law. It happens to real law enforcement all the time - cops can and do get punished for crimes they commit, at least sometimes.