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China will fill this gap as well: https://www.hematologyadvisor.com/news/china-donates-500m-to-who-as-u-s-pulls-back-support/ https://www.hematologyadvisor.com/

China will fill this gap as well: https://www.hematologyadvisor.com/news/china-donates-500m-to-who-as-u-s-pulls-back-support/ https://www.hematologyadvisor.com/news/china-donates-500m-to...

Nursie 9mo ago
China is likely to use its influence to push "TCM" further into the narrative. Not that the US national health agenda is exemplary in its use of evidence and scientific knowledge at the moment either. Sad all round. (Edit - downvoters, do you not agree that this is likely, or do you think that it's OK? If the former, it's been done before so it seems very likely to me. If the latter then I have to say I agree with this take in scientific american - "To include TCM in the ICD is an egregious lapse in evidence-based thinking and practice." https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-organization-gives-the-nod-to-traditional-chinese-medicine-bad-idea/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-...)
- aprilthird2021 9mo ago
  Why would they do that? Genuinely makes 0 sense to me. Even India with its nationalist authoritarian govt doesn't push Ayurveda on the global stage (for domestic customers though it's obv a big business whose magnates have close ties w the govt)
  - Nursie 9mo ago
    Because they've done it before? https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-organization-gives-the-nod-to-traditional-chinese-medicine-bad-idea/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-... https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240042322 https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240042322
    - aprilthird2021 9mo ago
      Wow, that is crazy. TIL It just seems like such an undermining move to prop up an industry that anyways relies on distrust of established scientific and medical systems
  - SanjayMehta 9mo ago
    1. What does nationalism and authoritarianism have to do with anything? By gratuitously sticking these words into your argument you undermine your credibility as a neutral commentator. 2. Even if they didn't push it, the west has been stealing ("appropriating" in liberal speak) Ayurvedic remedies for years. Take turmeric for example. The GoI had to sue to keep turmeric patent free.
    - aprilthird2021 9mo ago
      1. Because both states are nationalist and authoritarian, and both states have an alternative medicine practice that's culturally tied to them. It's a pretty good analogy imo, and it helps to understand how such a state would act by having an anlogue to compare it to 2. Ayurvedic and TCM largely refers to those things which haven't undergone clinical trials to understand their efficacy as prescribed medicines. Anything from that sphere which is clinically proven to work and is dispensed as prescription medicine just becomes part of medicine. It's not about "stealing" or whatever, it's about whether people should be given proven effective medicines or hopefully effective medicines, the former being what we should promote globally
      - disgruntledphd2 9mo ago
        > Ayurvedic and TCM largely refers to those things which haven't undergone clinical trials to understand their efficacy as prescribed medicines. Interestingly enough, RCTs of acupuncture (with sham needles) show pretty large effect sizes for many treatments but only in China, which is super weird. The most likely explanation is that the blinding doesn't work (which is a perennial problem in basically all RCTs), but it's interesting nonetheless.
      - SanjayMehta 9mo ago
        [flagged]
      - lateforwork 9mo ago
        > clinical trials Keep in mind that the Western system is not perfect either. Many good natural medicines are ignored by western countries because they have not undergone clinical trials. Why haven't they undergone clinical trials? Because that takes large amounts of money and no one is going to make that investment unless they can patent the molecule. Of course, natural medicines that have been in use for hundreds if not thousands of years are not patentable, so no one will do a clinical trial for them. As a result, when you go to a doctor in a western country they are completely ignorant about natural medicines and will only prescribe drugs pushed by big pharma.
- platinumrad 9mo ago
  I haven't seen them push it internationally. There's just occasionally official support for highly questionable studies claiming that it was real all along. Edit: It's dumber and worse than I thought.
  - Nursie 9mo ago
    They have previously pressured the WHO to include TCM remedies in its literature. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-organization-gives-the-nod-to-traditional-chinese-medicine-bad-idea/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-...
    - platinumrad 9mo ago
      It's very stupid, but I don't think it's going to have any international effect outside of countries like Singapore and Taiwan with signifiant populations of highly superstitious older ethnic Chinese. It's not like TCM doctors are being sent to Africa.
      - Nursie 9mo ago
        You said it, so I had to look it up: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/10/chinese-traditional-medicine-growth-in-africa-threatens-wildlife https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/10/chinese-traditiona... https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3326972/how-tcm-expanding-chinas-soft-power-africa-tunisia-chad https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3326972/ho... https://rhinos.org/tough-issues/promotion-of-traditional-chinese-medicine-in-africa/ https://rhinos.org/tough-issues/promotion-of-traditional-chi... It actually is like they're sending TCM doctors to Africa! I had no idea...
        platinumrad 9mo ago
        Thanks, we live in an ever stupider world than I thought. I do wonder about the prevalence and traction, and whether it's mostly ingredient sourcing rather than "treating" locals.
- speff 9mo ago
  Traditional Chinese Medicine and International Classification of Diseases - for people who didn't click the link
  - pseudohadamard 9mo ago
    TCM is mostly used by people in China too poor to afford standard medicine. If they've got the money, they go for non-TCM. That's all, nothing to do with the evil CCP bogeymen.
    - Nursie 9mo ago
      While this seems true and may be true within China, the Chinese government does push for this to be accepted around the world by pressuring for its inclusion in WHO documents, and is trying to open up new markets for TCM “Pharma” in poorer nations. I consider that quite evil as it’s not evidence based and undermines actually good, useful medicine. Just as I would/do consider anyone trying to increase take up of homeopathy in poorer parts of the world to be evil. In the case of China and TCM there appear to be nationalist and financial motives.
      - pseudohadamard 9mo ago
        It's not necessarily bad, these probably aren't hard figures but a GP once told me that of the cases he gets, if you do nothing much then 70% will get better by themselves, 20% will stay the same, and 10% will get worse (may have misremembered the numbers there). A lot of people just need a bit of reassurance and something to make them feel like they're doing something and they'll be OK, for which very affordable TCM is fine. Albert Schweitzer was once asked why he was OK with witch-doctors (as they were called then) practising outside his hospital, and he said they treated the stuff they could and sent the serious cases to him. It was an arrangement that worked for both sides.
        Nursie 9mo ago
        I think that promoting quack medicine as if it was legitimate is a problem in itself. Beyond that, some of the remedies are actively harmful, and we know that alt medicine practitioners have often kept people away from vital treatment.
- mapotofu 9mo ago
  I believe it’s ok due to shortfalls (namely, rigidity) of evidence-based thinking and practice, which leads to pretty depressing outcomes for a lot of people when it comes to medical practice. With western medicine it seems as though people are driven to mental illness, premature death, and bankruptcy. I’d also love to medicines that focus on fixing people instead of making a profit and I believe TCM narratives are more aligned with that viewpoint.
  - Nursie 9mo ago
    There must be a name for this sort of fallacy of thinking. “A isn’t perfect therefore I choose to believe in B.” Where A is an evidence-based discipline with some shortcomings and B is unevidenced woo. I’d rather something that works and can be proven to work over a good narrative, myself. Several of your criticisms there also only apply to the American way of running a health system, that’s a choice that’s not taken everywhere.
- pfisherman 9mo ago
  I don’t know what this comment is, but it is totally missing and underselling Chinese capability in biotech. They are not coming to push TCM. They are coming to dominate high end drug discovery and development. Perhaps they are looking to dominate both the high end and the low end bro science segments of the health market…
  - wuschel 9mo ago
    Hi, would there be a a way to contact you? I have an email in my profile. Would love to exchange some thought on that. China is not only a strong player in biotech. Their capability in chemical R&D and market transfer is very strong, too both in small and industrial scale. And let’s not speak about electronics …
  - Nursie 9mo ago
    I didn’t claim that Chinese biotech isn’t great. I am sure that like most Chinese research, engineering etc it is world class. But there is evidence from all around the world that the Chinese government is actively pushing TCM, that they push it with the WHO, and that they are actively trying to open up markets for TCM “pharmaceuticals” and practice in African and other nations. I put links in some of the sibling comments showing this.
FridayoLeary 9mo ago
[flagged]
- tokioyoyo 9mo ago
  I mean, it’s “Not A Good Thing” for the US. Chinese people are proud of their accomplishments in the past couple of decades, and deservedly so. Now they can do the whole realpolitiks as well. Sure, I don’t agree with lots of their stuff, but I’d rather a guy who doesn’t flip flop his mind every 4 years.
- garte 9mo ago
  Look up why it was called SARS-2 in the beginning (and most of all what SARS was) and you're going to understand a lot more why they reacted how they did...
pfisherman 9mo ago
They are currently eating our biotech lunch. Between cuts to NIH, chaos at FDA and CDC, and China’s intensive investment and buildout of their biomedical infrastructure the US is going to be getting lapped soon. Ask a biotech VC about it. But who knows, maybe if we keep the tariffs for another 10 years we can host the chemical manufacturing facilities that produce the drugs their biotechs sell to us after ours are no longer competitive.
- _DeadFred_ 9mo ago
  Moderna is now curbing vaccine trials because of US policy. Ironic that the same crowd that insists “healthcare companies want to keep you sick” is now cheering policies that reduce access to one time, preventative solutions in the form of vaccines. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/moderna-curbing-investments-vaccine-trials-due-us-backlash-ceo-tells-bloomberg-2026-01-22/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
  - pseudohadamard 9mo ago
    It's OK, the med beds will cure everyone so the US won't need vaccines. And if they don't, you've got the rapture to look forward to, so it's a win/win.

China will fill this gap as well: https://www.hematologyadvisor.com/news/china-donates-500m-to-who-as-u-s-pulls-back-support/ https://www.hematologyadvisor.com/news/china-donates-500m-to...

Nursie 9mo ago

China is likely to use its influence to push "TCM" further into the narrative. Not that the US national health agenda is exemplary in its use of evidence and scientific knowledge at the moment either. Sad all round. (Edit - downvoters, do you not agree that this is likely, or do you think that it's OK? If the former, it's been done before so it seems very likely to me. If the latter then I have to say I agree with this take in scientific american - "To include TCM in the ICD is an egregious lapse in evidence-based thinking and practice." https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-organization-gives-the-nod-to-traditional-chinese-medicine-bad-idea/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-...)

aprilthird2021 9mo ago
Why would they do that? Genuinely makes 0 sense to me. Even India with its nationalist authoritarian govt doesn't push Ayurveda on the global stage (for domestic customers though it's obv a big business whose magnates have close ties w the govt)
- Nursie 9mo ago
  Because they've done it before? https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-organization-gives-the-nod-to-traditional-chinese-medicine-bad-idea/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-... https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240042322 https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/9789240042322
  - aprilthird2021 9mo ago
    Wow, that is crazy. TIL It just seems like such an undermining move to prop up an industry that anyways relies on distrust of established scientific and medical systems
- SanjayMehta 9mo ago
  1. What does nationalism and authoritarianism have to do with anything? By gratuitously sticking these words into your argument you undermine your credibility as a neutral commentator. 2. Even if they didn't push it, the west has been stealing ("appropriating" in liberal speak) Ayurvedic remedies for years. Take turmeric for example. The GoI had to sue to keep turmeric patent free.
  - aprilthird2021 9mo ago
    1. Because both states are nationalist and authoritarian, and both states have an alternative medicine practice that's culturally tied to them. It's a pretty good analogy imo, and it helps to understand how such a state would act by having an anlogue to compare it to 2. Ayurvedic and TCM largely refers to those things which haven't undergone clinical trials to understand their efficacy as prescribed medicines. Anything from that sphere which is clinically proven to work and is dispensed as prescription medicine just becomes part of medicine. It's not about "stealing" or whatever, it's about whether people should be given proven effective medicines or hopefully effective medicines, the former being what we should promote globally
    - disgruntledphd2 9mo ago
      > Ayurvedic and TCM largely refers to those things which haven't undergone clinical trials to understand their efficacy as prescribed medicines. Interestingly enough, RCTs of acupuncture (with sham needles) show pretty large effect sizes for many treatments but only in China, which is super weird. The most likely explanation is that the blinding doesn't work (which is a perennial problem in basically all RCTs), but it's interesting nonetheless.
    - SanjayMehta 9mo ago
      [flagged]
    - lateforwork 9mo ago
      > clinical trials Keep in mind that the Western system is not perfect either. Many good natural medicines are ignored by western countries because they have not undergone clinical trials. Why haven't they undergone clinical trials? Because that takes large amounts of money and no one is going to make that investment unless they can patent the molecule. Of course, natural medicines that have been in use for hundreds if not thousands of years are not patentable, so no one will do a clinical trial for them. As a result, when you go to a doctor in a western country they are completely ignorant about natural medicines and will only prescribe drugs pushed by big pharma.
platinumrad 9mo ago
I haven't seen them push it internationally. There's just occasionally official support for highly questionable studies claiming that it was real all along. Edit: It's dumber and worse than I thought.
- Nursie 9mo ago
  They have previously pressured the WHO to include TCM remedies in its literature. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-organization-gives-the-nod-to-traditional-chinese-medicine-bad-idea/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-world-health-...
  - platinumrad 9mo ago
    It's very stupid, but I don't think it's going to have any international effect outside of countries like Singapore and Taiwan with signifiant populations of highly superstitious older ethnic Chinese. It's not like TCM doctors are being sent to Africa.
    - Nursie 9mo ago
      You said it, so I had to look it up: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/10/chinese-traditional-medicine-growth-in-africa-threatens-wildlife https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/11/10/chinese-traditiona... https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3326972/how-tcm-expanding-chinas-soft-power-africa-tunisia-chad https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3326972/ho... https://rhinos.org/tough-issues/promotion-of-traditional-chinese-medicine-in-africa/ https://rhinos.org/tough-issues/promotion-of-traditional-chi... It actually is like they're sending TCM doctors to Africa! I had no idea...
      - platinumrad 9mo ago
        Thanks, we live in an ever stupider world than I thought. I do wonder about the prevalence and traction, and whether it's mostly ingredient sourcing rather than "treating" locals.
speff 9mo ago
Traditional Chinese Medicine and International Classification of Diseases - for people who didn't click the link
- pseudohadamard 9mo ago
  TCM is mostly used by people in China too poor to afford standard medicine. If they've got the money, they go for non-TCM. That's all, nothing to do with the evil CCP bogeymen.
  - Nursie 9mo ago
    While this seems true and may be true within China, the Chinese government does push for this to be accepted around the world by pressuring for its inclusion in WHO documents, and is trying to open up new markets for TCM “Pharma” in poorer nations. I consider that quite evil as it’s not evidence based and undermines actually good, useful medicine. Just as I would/do consider anyone trying to increase take up of homeopathy in poorer parts of the world to be evil. In the case of China and TCM there appear to be nationalist and financial motives.
    - pseudohadamard 9mo ago
      It's not necessarily bad, these probably aren't hard figures but a GP once told me that of the cases he gets, if you do nothing much then 70% will get better by themselves, 20% will stay the same, and 10% will get worse (may have misremembered the numbers there). A lot of people just need a bit of reassurance and something to make them feel like they're doing something and they'll be OK, for which very affordable TCM is fine. Albert Schweitzer was once asked why he was OK with witch-doctors (as they were called then) practising outside his hospital, and he said they treated the stuff they could and sent the serious cases to him. It was an arrangement that worked for both sides.
      - Nursie 9mo ago
        I think that promoting quack medicine as if it was legitimate is a problem in itself. Beyond that, some of the remedies are actively harmful, and we know that alt medicine practitioners have often kept people away from vital treatment.
mapotofu 9mo ago
I believe it’s ok due to shortfalls (namely, rigidity) of evidence-based thinking and practice, which leads to pretty depressing outcomes for a lot of people when it comes to medical practice. With western medicine it seems as though people are driven to mental illness, premature death, and bankruptcy. I’d also love to medicines that focus on fixing people instead of making a profit and I believe TCM narratives are more aligned with that viewpoint.
- Nursie 9mo ago
  There must be a name for this sort of fallacy of thinking. “A isn’t perfect therefore I choose to believe in B.” Where A is an evidence-based discipline with some shortcomings and B is unevidenced woo. I’d rather something that works and can be proven to work over a good narrative, myself. Several of your criticisms there also only apply to the American way of running a health system, that’s a choice that’s not taken everywhere.
pfisherman 9mo ago
I don’t know what this comment is, but it is totally missing and underselling Chinese capability in biotech. They are not coming to push TCM. They are coming to dominate high end drug discovery and development. Perhaps they are looking to dominate both the high end and the low end bro science segments of the health market…
- wuschel 9mo ago
  Hi, would there be a a way to contact you? I have an email in my profile. Would love to exchange some thought on that. China is not only a strong player in biotech. Their capability in chemical R&D and market transfer is very strong, too both in small and industrial scale. And let’s not speak about electronics …
- Nursie 9mo ago
  I didn’t claim that Chinese biotech isn’t great. I am sure that like most Chinese research, engineering etc it is world class. But there is evidence from all around the world that the Chinese government is actively pushing TCM, that they push it with the WHO, and that they are actively trying to open up markets for TCM “pharmaceuticals” and practice in African and other nations. I put links in some of the sibling comments showing this.

FridayoLeary 9mo ago

[flagged]

tokioyoyo 9mo ago
I mean, it’s “Not A Good Thing” for the US. Chinese people are proud of their accomplishments in the past couple of decades, and deservedly so. Now they can do the whole realpolitiks as well. Sure, I don’t agree with lots of their stuff, but I’d rather a guy who doesn’t flip flop his mind every 4 years.
garte 9mo ago
Look up why it was called SARS-2 in the beginning (and most of all what SARS was) and you're going to understand a lot more why they reacted how they did...

pfisherman 9mo ago

They are currently eating our biotech lunch. Between cuts to NIH, chaos at FDA and CDC, and China’s intensive investment and buildout of their biomedical infrastructure the US is going to be getting lapped soon. Ask a biotech VC about it. But who knows, maybe if we keep the tariffs for another 10 years we can host the chemical manufacturing facilities that produce the drugs their biotechs sell to us after ours are no longer competitive.

_DeadFred_ 9mo ago
Moderna is now curbing vaccine trials because of US policy. Ironic that the same crowd that insists “healthcare companies want to keep you sick” is now cheering policies that reduce access to one time, preventative solutions in the form of vaccines. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/moderna-curbing-investments-vaccine-trials-due-us-backlash-ceo-tells-bloomberg-2026-01-22/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
- pseudohadamard 9mo ago
  It's OK, the med beds will cure everyone so the US won't need vaccines. And if they don't, you've got the rapture to look forward to, so it's a win/win.