5 ms·

Intermittence really has always had the flavor of an engineering problem instead of a physics problem (it is about putting the energy when/where humans want it,

Intermittence really has always had the flavor of an engineering problem instead of a physics problem (it is about putting the energy when/where humans want it, rather than having enough of it). IMO load shifting seems like a cleverer and more engineer-y solution. Imagine a giant smart system where all of our appliances talk to each-other and can optimize the timings of their workloads. It’s a magnificent society-wide scheduling problem! The papers we could write! Throwing batteries at it is a kind of blunt and uninteresting solution (I guess the market will prefer that one!).

epolanski 9mo ago
I ain't gonna use the dishwasher when the system wants me to, but when I can or want. I pay low energy prices during night than day, that's normal, but I'm still not gonna do laundry at 9 pm, I'd rather pay the 10/20 cents more during the day.
- bee_rider 9mo ago
  If I had a combined washer/dryer and could just load the clothes up and say “do it whenever” I’d go for that. But that’s very dependent on only needing to do one load per day.
- matthewdgreen 9mo ago
  A typical dishwasher load requires 1-3kWh, so you'll just use your home battery and do it whenever you want.
  - DoctorOetker 9mo ago
    a lot of that energy could have been recuperated with a heat exchanger when the water is refreshed, also in laundry machines.
    - matthewdgreen 9mo ago
      That's more or less what heat pump clothes dryers do. They draw in air, heat it, and then blow the humid air back over the cold side of the heat pump loop to condense it. They save tons of energy. I don't think there's anything similar for water (in clothes or dish washers) but the quantities might just be too small to bother with.
      - DoctorOetker 9mo ago
        a counter current heat exchanger might be more reliable than a refrigerant heat pump and more efficient than peltier heat pumps, but yes in theory you can quasistatically move the water out for almost no energy (only the adsorption / mixing energies). And peltiers can be much more efficient at tiny temperature gradients, so a theoretical frictionless positive displacement pump, and a heat pipe between the condensing compartment and the evaporatig compartment (so keeping the 2 compartments at ambient temperature (so no heat losses). Compressing humid air releases heat which marginally increases the temperature of the condensing compartment, and marginally cools the evaporating compartment with the wet clothes; thus the heat pipe will quickly equilibrate the 2 compartments.
- lejalv 9mo ago
  I do time my dishwasher and washing machine to align with peak solar where I live. I'd like to appeal to you to evolve that frame of mind. To help avoid first world problems (I can't wash a dish by hand, I need it now) devolving into third-world ones (power cuts, crop failures, torrid tropical nights on mid latitudes, mountains disintegrated). Sometimes its important to remind we're on a generational mission, and it's not maximising Netflix time.
  - epolanski 9mo ago
    I don't like your feedback, it's condescending and you know nothing about me. 1. In my area 96% of energy is gas-based. I live in Rome, Italy. It's written in my energy bill. I ain't got no solar. Night or day it's mostly a matter of relatively small changes of demand. 2. If you want to do something real for the environment change your diet! I'm sick of this neverending focus on energy when the biggest impact you can have is by eating way less meat, cattle in particular. On that I am very sensitive. And me deciding to have less burgers and steaks across an year has magnitude of order more impact than your silly dishwasher. Do the math. As I am on transport where instead of pretending to be green by buying 3 tonnes electric SUVs on a lease from US lunatics I use public transport and use my old beaten car sparely in the weekends. Spare me your nonsense because I ain't gonna be thinking about running a noisy dishwasher in my living room at 9 pm, the only moment of relax and peace for my family because of negligible-to-nonexistent impact on the environment. And just to add, I don't even own AC, and I can assure you it gets 40C/100+ Fahrenheit, with high humidity in Rome at summer. That's how sensitive I am to the topic. You know nothing about the people you interact with.
    - ericd 9mo ago
      Pretty sure your diet is a relatively small part of your carbon footprint.
      - danans 9mo ago
        Like everything else, it depends. In the extreme case, if you eat beef every day but use a bicycle for transportation, live in a mild climate with little need for heating and cooling, and rarely fly in an airplane, your diet could be a significant part of your carbon footprint in percentage terms.
- ViewTrick1002 9mo ago
  But you will charge your car when it’s cheaper. And add a cheap home battery to remove expensive peak usage.
- jopsen 9mo ago
  Yeah, but your dishwasher or washing machine isn't the big electricity eater. Your car is. And honestly, you'd rather charge the car at night so that you don't blow a fuse when you're running the dishwasher, microwave, dryer, oven, induction stove and charging your car :) I have never blown a fuse being getting an EV, and so far still only once. But charging at night is preferable for that reason, and I couldn't care so long as it's ready by 7am. Load shifting EVs is easy, and this moves a lot of load. It was never about moving all load.
  - jijijijij 9mo ago
    It would be preferable to charge the car in solar panel shaded parking lots at work during the day. You have to charge it at home, because charging EVs has only recently entered architectural and city planning. For the most part, EVs are the battery to buffer peak sun energy.
- crote 9mo ago
  I couldn't care less when it runs, as long as it's done when I want to unload it. The diswasher will by full after dinner, so I close it and press "start". It has to be done at the latest by next dinner. Does it run immediately, during the night, or during the day? Irrelevant, let the damn thing pick the best (cheapest) time. Same with laundry. On average I run less than one load a day, so I'm happy if it finishes either when I wake up, when I get home from work, or when I am about to go to bed.
  - ragazzina 9mo ago
    Laundry and dishwashing are completely different though? Recent dishwashers can open by themselves and dry the dishes, washing machines need a (awaken) human to remove the wet clothes when they finish their cycle.
- lambdaone 9mo ago
  But it's not you, it's everyone. And some people will be swayed even by that 10 to 20 cents. Put them all together, and you have a substantial "virtual battery" capacity, and all you need to do it is to make sure people have price awareness. Don't knock small gains like this. Even a couple of percentage difference is worth having; all the marginal gains add up to make large scale gains.
evan_a_a 9mo ago
In engineering the simple solution is often the best solution. Creating a demand-side network of devices is not that. Plus, such a system would provide even more ways for nefarious actors to sabotage the grid, by influencing the demand side. For example, setting every appliance to run its load at the same time. The grid would be fucked.
- pcchristie 9mo ago
  I don't disagree with your broad comment but it's not hard to fix by slightly dispersing the control/responsibility. 1. Electricity moves for 5/10 min clearing intervals with defined caps at either end (currently in Western Australia it's simply 2 intervals, peak & off-peak). 2. Expose the pricing/market data via API 3. Develop existing home automation frameworks/tools/device IOTs/routers to access that. 4. End user grants permission/configures it on their smart phone when they set their dishwasher and washing machine on set up ("would you like to enable this smart-go button by connecting to Wi-Fi? It could save you $150 per year"). No control ceded to third parties to turn on equipment whenever they want, just allows the end user to cue jobs for when the PowerCo anticipates lowest prices. PowerCo not any more of a honeypot for attack, at least not more than they are now with control over critical generation/tx/dx infra.
  - tsimionescu 9mo ago
    If the devices are accessing a 3rd party API over the Internet to get this info, that control is still ceded, and attackers can still exploit vulnerabilities in all of these devices to attack large swaths of the network at once.
terj74 9mo ago
This is already happening with market pricing of electricity energy demands that can be shifted. Our car charges, and our dishwasher/clothes washer run when pricing is low. The price differential is not big enough yet between high and low demand times for us to invest in a battery to soak up cheap power. If battery prices continue to go down, or if the price differential goes up that equation will change. The other main expensive energy user is HVAC and we don't have a way of moving that demand to a different time of day other than a batterv. :(
salynchnew 9mo ago
It's a great idea, but I feel like that way ends up with the nightmare scenario of each of us managing an AWS-style admin console for washing the dishes, etc. That way lies madness, although I suppose there might be one or two family members I would want to lock out of the dishwasher.
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]

epolanski 9mo ago

I ain't gonna use the dishwasher when the system wants me to, but when I can or want. I pay low energy prices during night than day, that's normal, but I'm still not gonna do laundry at 9 pm, I'd rather pay the 10/20 cents more during the day.

bee_rider 9mo ago
If I had a combined washer/dryer and could just load the clothes up and say “do it whenever” I’d go for that. But that’s very dependent on only needing to do one load per day.
matthewdgreen 9mo ago
A typical dishwasher load requires 1-3kWh, so you'll just use your home battery and do it whenever you want.
- DoctorOetker 9mo ago
  a lot of that energy could have been recuperated with a heat exchanger when the water is refreshed, also in laundry machines.
  - matthewdgreen 9mo ago
    That's more or less what heat pump clothes dryers do. They draw in air, heat it, and then blow the humid air back over the cold side of the heat pump loop to condense it. They save tons of energy. I don't think there's anything similar for water (in clothes or dish washers) but the quantities might just be too small to bother with.
    - DoctorOetker 9mo ago
      a counter current heat exchanger might be more reliable than a refrigerant heat pump and more efficient than peltier heat pumps, but yes in theory you can quasistatically move the water out for almost no energy (only the adsorption / mixing energies). And peltiers can be much more efficient at tiny temperature gradients, so a theoretical frictionless positive displacement pump, and a heat pipe between the condensing compartment and the evaporatig compartment (so keeping the 2 compartments at ambient temperature (so no heat losses). Compressing humid air releases heat which marginally increases the temperature of the condensing compartment, and marginally cools the evaporating compartment with the wet clothes; thus the heat pipe will quickly equilibrate the 2 compartments.
lejalv 9mo ago
I do time my dishwasher and washing machine to align with peak solar where I live. I'd like to appeal to you to evolve that frame of mind. To help avoid first world problems (I can't wash a dish by hand, I need it now) devolving into third-world ones (power cuts, crop failures, torrid tropical nights on mid latitudes, mountains disintegrated). Sometimes its important to remind we're on a generational mission, and it's not maximising Netflix time.
- epolanski 9mo ago
  I don't like your feedback, it's condescending and you know nothing about me. 1. In my area 96% of energy is gas-based. I live in Rome, Italy. It's written in my energy bill. I ain't got no solar. Night or day it's mostly a matter of relatively small changes of demand. 2. If you want to do something real for the environment change your diet! I'm sick of this neverending focus on energy when the biggest impact you can have is by eating way less meat, cattle in particular. On that I am very sensitive. And me deciding to have less burgers and steaks across an year has magnitude of order more impact than your silly dishwasher. Do the math. As I am on transport where instead of pretending to be green by buying 3 tonnes electric SUVs on a lease from US lunatics I use public transport and use my old beaten car sparely in the weekends. Spare me your nonsense because I ain't gonna be thinking about running a noisy dishwasher in my living room at 9 pm, the only moment of relax and peace for my family because of negligible-to-nonexistent impact on the environment. And just to add, I don't even own AC, and I can assure you it gets 40C/100+ Fahrenheit, with high humidity in Rome at summer. That's how sensitive I am to the topic. You know nothing about the people you interact with.
  - ericd 9mo ago
    Pretty sure your diet is a relatively small part of your carbon footprint.
    - danans 9mo ago
      Like everything else, it depends. In the extreme case, if you eat beef every day but use a bicycle for transportation, live in a mild climate with little need for heating and cooling, and rarely fly in an airplane, your diet could be a significant part of your carbon footprint in percentage terms.
ViewTrick1002 9mo ago
But you will charge your car when it’s cheaper. And add a cheap home battery to remove expensive peak usage.
jopsen 9mo ago
Yeah, but your dishwasher or washing machine isn't the big electricity eater. Your car is. And honestly, you'd rather charge the car at night so that you don't blow a fuse when you're running the dishwasher, microwave, dryer, oven, induction stove and charging your car :) I have never blown a fuse being getting an EV, and so far still only once. But charging at night is preferable for that reason, and I couldn't care so long as it's ready by 7am. Load shifting EVs is easy, and this moves a lot of load. It was never about moving all load.
- jijijijij 9mo ago
  It would be preferable to charge the car in solar panel shaded parking lots at work during the day. You have to charge it at home, because charging EVs has only recently entered architectural and city planning. For the most part, EVs are the battery to buffer peak sun energy.
crote 9mo ago
I couldn't care less when it runs, as long as it's done when I want to unload it. The diswasher will by full after dinner, so I close it and press "start". It has to be done at the latest by next dinner. Does it run immediately, during the night, or during the day? Irrelevant, let the damn thing pick the best (cheapest) time. Same with laundry. On average I run less than one load a day, so I'm happy if it finishes either when I wake up, when I get home from work, or when I am about to go to bed.
- ragazzina 9mo ago
  Laundry and dishwashing are completely different though? Recent dishwashers can open by themselves and dry the dishes, washing machines need a (awaken) human to remove the wet clothes when they finish their cycle.
lambdaone 9mo ago
But it's not you, it's everyone. And some people will be swayed even by that 10 to 20 cents. Put them all together, and you have a substantial "virtual battery" capacity, and all you need to do it is to make sure people have price awareness. Don't knock small gains like this. Even a couple of percentage difference is worth having; all the marginal gains add up to make large scale gains.

evan_a_a 9mo ago

In engineering the simple solution is often the best solution. Creating a demand-side network of devices is not that. Plus, such a system would provide even more ways for nefarious actors to sabotage the grid, by influencing the demand side. For example, setting every appliance to run its load at the same time. The grid would be fucked.

pcchristie 9mo ago
I don't disagree with your broad comment but it's not hard to fix by slightly dispersing the control/responsibility. 1. Electricity moves for 5/10 min clearing intervals with defined caps at either end (currently in Western Australia it's simply 2 intervals, peak & off-peak). 2. Expose the pricing/market data via API 3. Develop existing home automation frameworks/tools/device IOTs/routers to access that. 4. End user grants permission/configures it on their smart phone when they set their dishwasher and washing machine on set up ("would you like to enable this smart-go button by connecting to Wi-Fi? It could save you $150 per year"). No control ceded to third parties to turn on equipment whenever they want, just allows the end user to cue jobs for when the PowerCo anticipates lowest prices. PowerCo not any more of a honeypot for attack, at least not more than they are now with control over critical generation/tx/dx infra.
- tsimionescu 9mo ago
  If the devices are accessing a 3rd party API over the Internet to get this info, that control is still ceded, and attackers can still exploit vulnerabilities in all of these devices to attack large swaths of the network at once.

terj74 9mo ago

This is already happening with market pricing of electricity energy demands that can be shifted. Our car charges, and our dishwasher/clothes washer run when pricing is low. The price differential is not big enough yet between high and low demand times for us to invest in a battery to soak up cheap power. If battery prices continue to go down, or if the price differential goes up that equation will change. The other main expensive energy user is HVAC and we don't have a way of moving that demand to a different time of day other than a batterv. :(

salynchnew 9mo ago

It's a great idea, but I feel like that way ends up with the nightmare scenario of each of us managing an AWS-style admin console for washing the dishes, etc. That way lies madness, although I suppose there might be one or two family members I would want to lock out of the dishwasher.

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]