5 ms·

IIRC ReactOS uses and contributes heavily to WINE. So in many ways your #3 isn't far from using ReactOS, and if done correctly it'll be friendlier for the avera

by afavour 9mo ago

IIRC ReactOS uses and contributes heavily to WINE. So in many ways your #3 isn't far from using ReactOS, and if done correctly it'll be friendlier for the average person than Linux itself.

ch_123 9mo ago
Yes, exactly my point - thanks for elaborating on it.
- hypercube33 9mo ago
  Why not use Linux with WINE and that Chicago95 theme and call it a day?
  - ch_123 9mo ago
    That's (part of) my point. A project like ReactOS which clones Windows down to the kernel level solves for a very small set of practical use cases which are not covered by real Windows, or Linux+WINE. It's worth noting that 30 years ago, there was a definite advantage to an open source operating system which could reuse proprietary Windows drivers - even Linux had a mechanism for using Windows drivers for certain types of hardware. Nowadays, Linux provides excellent support for modern PC hardware with little to no tinkering required in most cases. I have seen many cases where Linux provided full support out-of-the-box for a computer, whereas Windows required drivers to be downloaded and installed.
    - genewitch 9mo ago
      it causes you physical pain to say "NDIS", too?
spijdar 9mo ago
This isn't really my arena, but I did happen to recently compare the implementation of ReactOS's RTL (Run Time Library) path routines [0] with Wine's implementation [1]. ReactOS covers a lot more of the Windows API than Wine does (3x the line count and defines a lot more routines like 'RtlDoesFileExists_UstrEx'). Now, this is not supposed to be a public API and should only be used by Windows internally, as I understand it. But it is an example of where ReactOS covers a lot more API than Wine does or probably ever will, by design. To whom (if anyone) this matters, I'm not sure. [0] https://github.com/reactos/reactos/blob/master/sdk/lib/rtl/path.c https://github.com/reactos/reactos/blob/master/sdk/lib/rtl/p... [1] https://github.com/wine-mirror/wine/blob/master/dlls/ntdll/path.c https://github.com/wine-mirror/wine/blob/master/dlls/ntdll/p...
- ch_123 9mo ago
  That's an interesting data point. I wonder if there is a hard technical reason why that logic could not be added to WINE, or if the WINE maintainers made a decision not to implement similar functionality.
  - tadfisher 9mo ago
    There is not a hard technical reason, just different goals. WINE is a compatibility layer to run Windows apps, and thus most improvements end up fixing an issue with a particular Windows application. It turns out that most Windows applications are somewhat well-behaved and restrict themselves to calling public win32 APIs and public DLL functions, so implementing 100% coverage of internal APIs wouldn't accomplish much beyond exposing the project to accusations of copyright infringement. IIRC, there is also US court precedent (maybe Sony v. Connectix?) that protects the practice of reverse-engineering external hardware/software systems that programs use in order to facilitate compatibility. WINE risks losing this protection if they stray outside of APIs known to be used (or are otherwise required) by applications.
    - cachius 9mo ago
      There's also another partial Win32 reimplementation in retrowin32, with the different goal of being a Windows emulator for the web, not for Linux or as alternate OS, at https://evmar.github.io/retrowin32/ https://evmar.github.io/retrowin32/ It thus has an even more sparse path/fileapi.h implementation [2] than WINE and ReactOS. Written in Rust. [2] https://github.com/evmar/retrowin32/blob/main/win32/dll/kernel32/src/file/path.rs https://github.com/evmar/retrowin32/blob/main/win32/dll/kern...
badsectoracula 9mo ago
No, the Wine developers refuse to accept contributions from ReactOS developers or even people who have seen ReactOS code[0]. So any improvements go one way only. [0] https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/wikis/Clean-Room-Guidelines https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/wikis/Clean-Room-Guide... (last "Don't" entry)
- kwanbix 9mo ago
  You are saying that ReactOS doesn't use clean room code? Source?
  - snovymgodym 9mo ago
    I believe the integrity of ReactOS's clean room reverse engineering has been called into question in the past when it was found that there were some header or code files with sections that matched leaked Windows Server 2003 code or something like that. Can't recall for sure though.
    - userulluipeste 9mo ago
      The article mentions this: "In January 2006, concerns grew about contributors having access to leaked Windows source code and possibly using this leaked source code in their contributions. In response, Steven Edwards strengthened the project’s intellectual property policy and the project made the difficult decision to audit the existing source code and temporarily freeze contributions." The allegations have been taken seriously and since then the procedure for accepting contributions include measures to prevent such further events from occurring. If you or anyone else happen to have any plausible suspicion, then please report it to the ReactOS team, otherwise keeping alive this kind of vague and uncertain connection between some Windows code leakage and ReactOS fits the very definition of FUD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt Please stop.
  - zen928 9mo ago
    They posted their source for their claim (which is different than yours). Click and read it.
boznz 9mo ago
>it'll be friendlier for the average person than Linux itself. I think the myth that Windows is easier needs to die. The builds targeted at Windows users are very easy to use; You would likely go into the Command Prompt as much as you would with Windows, and the "average person" spends more time on their non-windows phone than they do in Windows. I am a 30+ years Windows developer, who thought he would never move, but who migrated literally a week ago, the migration was surprisingly painless and the new system feels much more friendly, and surprisingly, more stable. I wrote it up on my blog, and was going to follow it up with another post about all the annoyances in my first full week, but they were so petty I didn't bother.
- johnisgood 9mo ago
  I agree. One can just install Linux Mint or Fedora or anything and then Linux is just as friendly to use. You got a desktop, you can use your mouse to start up the browser, install applications with a mouse click, and so forth. You could do without opening up the terminal. Functionally the same as using Windows.
  - pjmlp 9mo ago
    I would like to see many non technical people doing that, and then their experience trying to watch Netflix, Prime, HBO, YouTube,... Linux experience is ok, when one knows UNIX and is technically skilled.
    - maybewhenthesun 9mo ago
      My parents, and my wife's parents, have been doing just that without any trouble whatsoever. Just browse to netflix.com and log in. Not any different than in windows. My parents use mail, firefox and libreoffice writer. That's about all they need and it works fine and is way more stable and hasslefree on linux than when it was when they were still using windows (admittedly quite long ago). And if you are talking about seeing people install the OS, people can't do that for windows either.
      - 9mo ago

by afavour 9mo ago

IIRC ReactOS uses and contributes heavily to WINE. So in many ways your #3 isn't far from using ReactOS, and if done correctly it'll be friendlier for the average person than Linux itself.

ch_123 9mo ago

Yes, exactly my point - thanks for elaborating on it.

hypercube33 9mo ago
Why not use Linux with WINE and that Chicago95 theme and call it a day?
- ch_123 9mo ago
  That's (part of) my point. A project like ReactOS which clones Windows down to the kernel level solves for a very small set of practical use cases which are not covered by real Windows, or Linux+WINE. It's worth noting that 30 years ago, there was a definite advantage to an open source operating system which could reuse proprietary Windows drivers - even Linux had a mechanism for using Windows drivers for certain types of hardware. Nowadays, Linux provides excellent support for modern PC hardware with little to no tinkering required in most cases. I have seen many cases where Linux provided full support out-of-the-box for a computer, whereas Windows required drivers to be downloaded and installed.
  - genewitch 9mo ago
    it causes you physical pain to say "NDIS", too?

spijdar 9mo ago

This isn't really my arena, but I did happen to recently compare the implementation of ReactOS's RTL (Run Time Library) path routines [0] with Wine's implementation [1]. ReactOS covers a lot more of the Windows API than Wine does (3x the line count and defines a lot more routines like 'RtlDoesFileExists_UstrEx'). Now, this is not supposed to be a public API and should only be used by Windows internally, as I understand it. But it is an example of where ReactOS covers a lot more API than Wine does or probably ever will, by design. To whom (if anyone) this matters, I'm not sure. [0] https://github.com/reactos/reactos/blob/master/sdk/lib/rtl/path.c https://github.com/reactos/reactos/blob/master/sdk/lib/rtl/p... [1] https://github.com/wine-mirror/wine/blob/master/dlls/ntdll/path.c https://github.com/wine-mirror/wine/blob/master/dlls/ntdll/p...

ch_123 9mo ago
That's an interesting data point. I wonder if there is a hard technical reason why that logic could not be added to WINE, or if the WINE maintainers made a decision not to implement similar functionality.
- tadfisher 9mo ago
  There is not a hard technical reason, just different goals. WINE is a compatibility layer to run Windows apps, and thus most improvements end up fixing an issue with a particular Windows application. It turns out that most Windows applications are somewhat well-behaved and restrict themselves to calling public win32 APIs and public DLL functions, so implementing 100% coverage of internal APIs wouldn't accomplish much beyond exposing the project to accusations of copyright infringement. IIRC, there is also US court precedent (maybe Sony v. Connectix?) that protects the practice of reverse-engineering external hardware/software systems that programs use in order to facilitate compatibility. WINE risks losing this protection if they stray outside of APIs known to be used (or are otherwise required) by applications.
  - cachius 9mo ago
    There's also another partial Win32 reimplementation in retrowin32, with the different goal of being a Windows emulator for the web, not for Linux or as alternate OS, at https://evmar.github.io/retrowin32/ https://evmar.github.io/retrowin32/ It thus has an even more sparse path/fileapi.h implementation [2] than WINE and ReactOS. Written in Rust. [2] https://github.com/evmar/retrowin32/blob/main/win32/dll/kernel32/src/file/path.rs https://github.com/evmar/retrowin32/blob/main/win32/dll/kern...

badsectoracula 9mo ago

No, the Wine developers refuse to accept contributions from ReactOS developers or even people who have seen ReactOS code[0]. So any improvements go one way only. [0] https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/wikis/Clean-Room-Guidelines https://gitlab.winehq.org/wine/wine/-/wikis/Clean-Room-Guide... (last "Don't" entry)

kwanbix 9mo ago
You are saying that ReactOS doesn't use clean room code? Source?
- snovymgodym 9mo ago
  I believe the integrity of ReactOS's clean room reverse engineering has been called into question in the past when it was found that there were some header or code files with sections that matched leaked Windows Server 2003 code or something like that. Can't recall for sure though.
  - userulluipeste 9mo ago
    The article mentions this: "In January 2006, concerns grew about contributors having access to leaked Windows source code and possibly using this leaked source code in their contributions. In response, Steven Edwards strengthened the project’s intellectual property policy and the project made the difficult decision to audit the existing source code and temporarily freeze contributions." The allegations have been taken seriously and since then the procedure for accepting contributions include measures to prevent such further events from occurring. If you or anyone else happen to have any plausible suspicion, then please report it to the ReactOS team, otherwise keeping alive this kind of vague and uncertain connection between some Windows code leakage and ReactOS fits the very definition of FUD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt Please stop.
- zen928 9mo ago
  They posted their source for their claim (which is different than yours). Click and read it.

boznz 9mo ago

>it'll be friendlier for the average person than Linux itself. I think the myth that Windows is easier needs to die. The builds targeted at Windows users are very easy to use; You would likely go into the Command Prompt as much as you would with Windows, and the "average person" spends more time on their non-windows phone than they do in Windows. I am a 30+ years Windows developer, who thought he would never move, but who migrated literally a week ago, the migration was surprisingly painless and the new system feels much more friendly, and surprisingly, more stable. I wrote it up on my blog, and was going to follow it up with another post about all the annoyances in my first full week, but they were so petty I didn't bother.

johnisgood 9mo ago
I agree. One can just install Linux Mint or Fedora or anything and then Linux is just as friendly to use. You got a desktop, you can use your mouse to start up the browser, install applications with a mouse click, and so forth. You could do without opening up the terminal. Functionally the same as using Windows.
- pjmlp 9mo ago
  I would like to see many non technical people doing that, and then their experience trying to watch Netflix, Prime, HBO, YouTube,... Linux experience is ok, when one knows UNIX and is technically skilled.
  - maybewhenthesun 9mo ago
    My parents, and my wife's parents, have been doing just that without any trouble whatsoever. Just browse to netflix.com and log in. Not any different than in windows. My parents use mail, firefox and libreoffice writer. That's about all they need and it works fine and is way more stable and hasslefree on linux than when it was when they were still using windows (admittedly quite long ago). And if you are talking about seeing people install the OS, people can't do that for windows either.
    - 9mo ago