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Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k g

Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k grant and $8k interest free loan. It makes 7.72Mwh per year, worth $1000. Tight valley, tons of snow. We put that on the loan for 8 years, then get $1000 per year free money for 20 years or so. Biggest no brainer of all time. Dad in Victoria Australia just got 10.6kw fully installed and operational for $4000 AUD. ($2,700 USD) Australia has so much electricity during the day they’re talking about making I free for everyone in the middle of the day. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-11-03/energy-retailers-offer-free-power-three-hours-dmo/105965472#:~:text=The%20Solar%20Sharer%20scheme%20is%20a%20federal,power%20is%20being%20fed%20into%20the%20grid https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-11-03/energy-retailers-offe...

jeorb 9mo ago
The quotes for solar on my home in the US ranged between $40,000 (local company) and $120,000 (Tesla). How did you get solar installed for only $13,000?
- abhinavk 9mo ago
  They are in Canada.
- pbasista 9mo ago
  Those numbers are meaningless unless you specify what you get in return. It is like saying that you pay $30,000 for a car. But the most important question is: For which car? Also, if the installation services are so expensive, you can always install everything yourself. Study how to do it, get the tools and materials, and then do it. It would be time-consuming, challenging and perhaps it would carry extra risks. Absolutely. But it is not rocket science. It can be done. As long as there is a motivation to do it, i.e. a good value you will get out of it in return, it should be a valid approach to consider, in my opinion.
jacquesm 9mo ago
And that's $1000 per year at today's energy prices, which surely will go up over time.
- testing22321 9mo ago
  They’re already locked in approved to go up at least 6% a year here. It just went up 16% this year for people out of town.
- njarboe 9mo ago
  One could hope with improving tech and decreasing regulations we could have decreasing (nominal) energy prices in the future. That would be progress.
  - jacquesm 9mo ago
    Demand is rising very fast compared to supply, I don't think that will happen. Energy is like RAM or clockspeed: you can't have enough of it.
  - blitzar 9mo ago
    > decreasing (nominal) energy prices in the future Hasn't happened ever before, not sure why this time it would be different.
    - njarboe 9mo ago
      Happened constantly till around 1970. One horse power used to take a horse. Now a very small electric motor for cents per day.
  - zozbot234 9mo ago
    We'll most likely see off-peak or dispatchable-demand energy prices become effectively negligible due to cheap intermittent sources, but the price for reliable 24/7 supply will if anything trend higher. Storage is not enough to bridge the gap in all cases, so you need either very expensive peaker plants or less expensive nuclear to provide a reliable baseload supply for those critical uses.
munk-a 9mo ago
And that on-roof-solar helps (as it becomes widespread) mitigate the growing need for additional grid capacity. Canada is a big country and, outside the major cities, upgrading grid capacity is quite expensive per capita. It's a win-win in Canada, investing in self-sufficiency while reducing the maintenance burden of infrastructure.
- GuB-42 9mo ago
  If there is no in-house storage to match, how does it help the grid? It is still needed for cold winter nights, where demand is high and solar panels produce nothing. Hydro can provide the power, but the grid will be running at full load.
  - adgjlsfhk1 9mo ago
    cold winters aren't as bad for the grid as you might expect because the cold keeps the power lines cold which lets you pump more power through them.
  - wussboy 9mo ago
    Most houses in Canada are heated with natural gas. I'm not negating your overall comment, but in general, cold nights don't strain the grid because of heating needs.
    - toomuchtodo 9mo ago
      Latest Data Shows the Rapid Growth of Heat Pumps in Canada - https://www.theenergymix.com/latest-data-shows-the-rapid-growth-of-heat-pumps-in-canada/ https://www.theenergymix.com/latest-data-shows-the-rapid-gro... - November 5th, 2025 (still good news, as most of Canada's electric generation is low carbon hydro, and the rest of fossil generation can be pushed out with storage and renewables, although I do not have a link handy by province how much fossil generation needs to be pushed out)
  - ezfe 9mo ago
    in-house storage helps, but net-metering and grid-storage also works
slavik81 9mo ago
The Greener Homes Grant and Greener Homes Loan you describe have ended, but the 160% tarrif on imported solar panels remains. Solar prices in Canada are still quite expensive, and regulations are needlessly strict. Solar fencing is illegal in many jurisdictions, balcony solar is illegal everywhere, and utility-scale solar is effectively prohibited in the regions with the most sunlight. Solar production in Canada will continue to grow, but we're not doing nearly as much as Europe to encourage it.
- standeven 9mo ago
  Some provincial grants remain ($5k in BC last time I checked), but yes - Canada can and should do more. Balcony solar seems like such an easy win. Hopefully tariffs get dropped now that we’re talking to China again. And federal Liberals could force municipalities and provinces to reduce some of the red tape surrounding solar installations. Come on Canada, unlocking clean energy shouldn’t have to be a fight!
- evolve2k 9mo ago
  I’m wondering out loud if you might be able to purchase what would essentially be the component parts of a solar panel but deconstructed (eg frame, cells, glass, wires; maybe the cells need further deconstructing) and do final assembly in Canada such that the final panel meets criteria to be “built locally”, potentially built of local and imported parts. Surely local manufacturers don’t use 100% Canadian made parts.
mrits 9mo ago
It's not always a no-brainer. If you live in a good established neighborhood in a warmer climate you'd have to remove tree coverage. Even if you did that, it's the other guys not oil or gas that will make it a hassle.
- Tepix 9mo ago
  Houses where the roof is completely in the shade from trees? That's not a very common sight.
  - treis 9mo ago
    Depends on the city. Here in Atlanta we are a "city in a forest" and for older neighborhoods with mature trees it's more common than not.
  - mrits 9mo ago
    It's a very common site and greatly increases the value of the property. It reminds me of when I was telling my Canadian friend how my pool gets a lot of leaves in it from all the trees and they said that was unfortunate. In Austin the pools get too hot to actually swim in if they aren't shaded.
- testing22321 9mo ago
  New panels are much less impacted by shade. Friends out of town just installed the same setup as ours, didn’t want to cut down three monster Doug firs shading their roof in summer. Made 6.9Mwh in 2025, only just less than ours with no shade at all.
  - boringg 9mo ago
    I mean physics would dictate that shade impacts performance but if you are able to break the laws of physics I am impressed!
    - testing22321 9mo ago
      And bifacial panels with higher efficiency were invented to work around that physics. Real numbers don’t lie.
DetectDefect 9mo ago
Missing from your calculus is the cost of creating, cleaning, maintaining and eventually replacing the hardware. None of that is "free" - it is merely externalized to a vulnerable population or to your future self.
- microtonal 9mo ago
  Missing from your calculus are the healthcare costs of every person in a country breathing in fumes from electricity plants that burn coal and fumes from cars that burn gasoline. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666759220300500 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266675922... (And a gazillion other studies.)
  - DetectDefect 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - microtonal 9mo ago
      One should definitely think about the children when choosing coal/gasoline vs. full electric. In fact we did and we have an electric car, replaced our gas cooking top by induction, and our gas-based heating by a heat pump. Last time I boarded an airplane was in 2019 I think.
      - deleted 9mo ago
        [deleted]
      - DetectDefect 9mo ago
        > In fact we did and we have an electric car, replaced our gas cooking top by induction, and our gas-based heating by a heat pump. Last time I boarded an airplane was in 2019 I think. Fantastic virtue signaling. Of course totally devoid of any mention about the individuals picking raw materials for those electric car components though, since they're not "our" children.
ricardo81 9mo ago
Canada is blessed with cheap energy, the abundance of hydro surely helps to bridge any intermittency other renewables have. I lived there 10 years back, your energy is less than half the cost of mine in Scotland. In Scotland's case we're part of the UK and the rest of the UK is less blessed with the geography for hydro. The incumbent Scottish government also has an anti stance to nuclear. I hope the incentives for cleaner energy continue to stack up. With the surge in demand from AI surely productivity will be more tightly coupled with energy usage and cost.
- toomuchtodo 9mo ago
  There is enough wind potential in Europe to power the world [1]. Combined with interconnects to Europe and battery storage, there is no reason power costs can't be driven down. To not do so is a lack of will. Scotland currently generates a surplus of renewables [2], exported. kieranmaine's sibling comment citations dives into the lack of will part. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38722022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38722022 (citations) [2] In Scotland, Renewable Power Has Outstripped Demand - https://e360.yale.edu/digest/scotland-renewable-energy-100-percent https://e360.yale.edu/digest/scotland-renewable-energy-100-p... - January 30th, 2024 (at the rate it takes to deploy transmission, might as well start dropping TBMs in the ground and let them grind towards each other from interconnect landings, potentially faster than the approval grind, complaints from locals about land use and right of ways, etc)
- kieranmaine 9mo ago
  Related to UK energy I read this interesting article on transmission congestion between Scotland and England and how this is increasing energy costs due to curtailment of renewables. https://ukerc.ac.uk/news/transmission-network-unavailability-the-quiet-driving-force-behind-rising-curtailment-costs-in-great-britain/ https://ukerc.ac.uk/news/transmission-network-unavailability... TL;DR - Until new interconnectors between Scotland and England are finished in 2029, there will be significant curtailment of Scottish wind power which increases costs. This is also an interesting site for seeing curtailment per wind farm - https://windtable.co.uk/data?farm=Seagreen https://windtable.co.uk/data?farm=Seagreen
Tepix 9mo ago
450W-500W solar panels are as low as 52€ here in Germany if you buy a couple of them. Batteries are also very affordable and I look forward to them getting a lot cheaper soon, thanks to Sodium-Ion.
- testing22321 9mo ago
  The price of panels is falling so fast I don’t think anyone truly understands. I paid nearly double that for our 450w panels 18 months ago.
  - toomuchtodo 9mo ago
    They are cheaper than fencing material, and will continue to decline in price.
    - cromka 9mo ago
      And, credit where credit is due, it's all thanks to China.
      - direwolf20 9mo ago
        The one country that still produces goods rather than switching to complete financialization!
        toomuchtodo 9mo ago
        "How are you so successful?" "Oh, well, we build you know. It's a dying art. Have you tried it?"
        epolanski 9mo ago
        Just to point out, but producing goods in exchange for pieced of paper is a weak system, especially if it's focus is export and not internal consumption, see Germany, Japan, Italy or China, all slowing down due to their reliance on exports.
boringg 9mo ago
What? No Canada isn't cheap solar power -- last I checked rooftop ballasted solar is a 12-14 year payback on avoided costs. Inverter will go beforehand and that excludes any op costs. 8k$ free loan doesn't really provide as much value as you would think. FWIW - I am all for solar but selling rooftop solar in canada as cheap and no-brainer is false. 3-4 year payback would be a no brainer. 8-13 year payback with an inverter upgrade and op-costs is definitely a decision that needs to be thought out. The grid you are offsetting is fairly green to begin with so the net benefit is marginal. If you are going to be isolated and put backup power into the equation. You ROI tanks further but at least you have about a day or two worth of energy in the storage asset.
- aclatuts 9mo ago
  Anything under $2.25/watt would put it within under a 4 year payback period, Alberta has good rates for solar. Rooftop solar doesn't have operating costs that I can think of unless you want to clean them and clear snow which is optional. And inverters usually have a 20-25 year warranty.
  - boringg 9mo ago
    Inverters are 5-10 year warranty.
- rngfnby 9mo ago
  Largely agree, with one big nitpick. Canada is a massive exporter of electricity to the USA. The more clean energy CND produces the more there is to displace North East's coal. Of course, solar on Canadians' roof is a joke. A proper regulatory regime would encourage solar in Arizona and encourage lettuce Canada; not vice versa.
  - boringg 9mo ago
    I don't disagree but the major energy being exported is from hydro or nuclear. It isn't coming off rooftop even at the margins. Rooftop solar is purely residential play. If you are trying to argue that in aggregate the demand for energy in canada drops because of high adoption of residential solar which then passes off clean energy to the US - its a reach. Also the amount of individual infra for each small residential asset is probably not particularly great return on investment - would be better to do as large deployments.
PunchyHamster 9mo ago
We have similar problem with prices being high despise renewable energy being cheap ;/
dyauspitr 9mo ago
What is the underlying reason in the US though? You would think if they are artificially inflated prices the market would fix that. What I’ve found is that a large part of the cost is the actual labor for the installation, how are other developed countries getting around this?
- account42 9mo ago
  Mostly by giving people free money to install them so they go on the internet to say how cheap they are.
  - amanaplanacanal 9mo ago
    That might be cheaper than grid upgrades though. Even though some people might get upset that somebody else is getting something for free.
- philipkglass 9mo ago
  It's mostly due to higher "soft costs" such as complicated/slow permitting and high customer acquisition costs. Australia has a higher minimum wage but much lower costs to get a rooftop system installed. "How to cut U.S. residential solar costs in half" https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/11/how-to-cut-u-s-residential-solar-costs-in-half/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/11/how-to-cut-u-s-reside... Birch points to Australia, where he said the average 7 kW solar array with a 7 kW battery costs $14,000. That equates to $2.02 per W, with batteries included. “You can sell it on Tuesday and install it on Wednesday, there’s no red tape, no permitting delays,” said Birch. ... In the United States, that same solar and battery installation averages $36,000, said Birch. Permitting alone can take two to six months, and the cost per watt of a solar plus storage installation is up to 2.5 times the Australian price, landing at $5.18 per W.
  - testing22321 9mo ago
    Those numbers for Australia are very out of date. My Dad in Australia just got 10.6kw fully installed and running for $4,000 AUD
AnotherGoodName 9mo ago
>Australia has so much electricity during the day they’re talking about making I free for everyone in the middle of the day. Not just talking about it, if you get a smart meter and sign up for a plan that matches the grid rates you can actually be paid to take electricity during the day right now. If you're wondering "couldn't you just make bank with a battery" yes you can. In fact Australia dominates the world in grid connected storage (per capita) and this chart itself is actually out of date (it's growing even faster than shown). https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/top-20-countries-by-battery-storage-capacity/ https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/top-20-countries-by-ba... I'll also point out that gas and oil generation has declined rapidly. https://reneweconomy.com.au/the-rise-of-battery-storage-and-why-the-grid-is-rapidly-passing-gas/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/the-rise-of-battery-storage-and-... For anyone that thinks renewables can't phase out peaker plants it happens very naturally and rapidly once there's enough solar to set rates negative in the day.
- bmelton 9mo ago
  How is it that people haven't turned to bitcoin mining (or similarly large energy dumps) during the daytime?
  - AnotherGoodName 9mo ago
    The cost of the rig and the few inconsistent hours a day its negative i’d guess. It’s not in the negative enough to be worthwhile dumping max amps but it’s certainly worth storing to buffer against peak hour pricing.
dataviz1000 9mo ago
> Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. It would be worth including control of the people who vote for the politicians by direct investment such as when the oil producing Saudis bought the second largest stake in NewCorps which controls FoxNews controlling the content that influences voters. And, less than ethical control using bots on social media by Russia. A lot of what influences "solar prices in the US" is controlled by foreign oil producing countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia controlling content and media consumed by American voters.
- apercu 9mo ago
  I agree wholeheartedly, and the technocrats are complicit with the GOP here. It's funny how “free markets” keep producing the most expensive solar prices in the developed world. Don't get me started on Healthcare (I just moved back to the U.S. a couple years ago after 18 years in Canada, what a cluster*ck). Oil and gas buy politicians, foreign oil money buys media influence, and social-media bots keep voters angry at the wrong targets. Saudi capital helps shape the messaging, Russia helps amplify the noise, and Americans get stuck paying more for clean energy while being told it’s patriotic. But hey, Make America Great Again, right?
  - sl_convertible 9mo ago
    If even a Democratically-led California is doing this, how can you point fingers at just the GOP? It's endemic to the system, and not restricted to just one party.
    - jaksdfkskf 9mo ago
      [dead]
    - daveguy 9mo ago
      Republicans are always trying to increase and protect oil subsidizes, cheer "drill baby drill", and have social media tools peddling their bs who are funded by foreign influence campaigns. The Democats may not be perfect, but they are much more likely to cut oil subsidies or at least subsidize solar and other renewables to balance. This is especially true as the next generation takes over by primarying the tepid fossils currently in office. Meanwhile, dear leader Dumpty likes to suggest windmills cause cancer because he doesn't like what they look like on the horizon of his golf dumps. Saying this is a "both sides" problem is laughable.
ApolloFortyNine 9mo ago
>Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. >Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k grant and $8k interest free loan. This very well may be true, but taken at face value Canada seems to be paying you around $7k to install solar panels on your roof (that's 8k interest free loan is losing out to inflation + any interest it would have earned). Definitely a great deal if you own a home, if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however.
- Zigurd 9mo ago
  Be less annoyed because utility demand declines.
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
- testing22321 9mo ago
  > if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however. As a non car owner are you annoyed everyone gets subsidized roads? Are you annoyed corn farmers get subsidies for growing corn? Would you be annoyed if people got subsidized life saving health care? It feels like the US can’t have nice things because people are hell bent on others not having nice things. What a shame.
  - _aavaa_ 9mo ago
    > As a non car owner are you annoyed everyone gets subsidized roads? Yes, and people should be annoyed by this given the underfunding, poor urban planning, and outright hostility by many local governments against anything that dares encroach on the sanctity of car culture.
    - simion314 9mo ago
      >Yes, and people should be annoyed by this So you do not use busses,taxi or road travel? do you fly all the time? Do you have stuff delivered by truck/cars or only by air? What about shopping? do you think the items you buy or the things needed to make those items use roads ? In a perfect extremist capitalist word there would be a road tax included in the products and services so you would still pay the text for the roads.
pear01 9mo ago
US also tariffs Chinese EV makers out of the US market so they can keep peddling the fiction that EV sucks or China can't build anything we can't. This has the same corrupt nexus with the anti-renewable mantra. Essentially subsidize oil and gas under the table and punish renewables then tell the electorate that the latter is worse than the former. Instead of giving Americans free choice American automakers pay American politicians to prop up their uncompetitive prices and subpar offerings. All while they take in huge private profits. American workers could work on foreign automobiles, just as they do with other automakers not from China. It's not about workers, it's not about national security. You don't even have to go into all the environmental concerns that of course disproportionately affect poorer individuals. It's corporate welfare. And yes, it should be criminal. At the very least, if the American people are going to inflate CEOs salaries they should have seats on the board. This is actually not a wild idea. You might be surprised to find who one of the largest shareholders of the Volkswagen group is. It's not like that is an obviously mismanaged socialist hellhole company, it's a perfectly competitive and well regarded car company. Americans need to start demanding more equity or oversight in operations their governments are already paying for. The fact most Americans think this amounts to communism just means more people have to call out the money is already flowing.
- testing22321 9mo ago
  I’m really happy Canada just dropped the Chinese EV tariffs.
apexalpha 9mo ago
>Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k grant and $8k interest free loan. €13.000 for this still seems expensive. Are there tariffs on Chinese PV in Canada?
- canucktrash669 9mo ago
  13k CAD is €8.000
- matthewdgreen 9mo ago
  Most rooftop install costs are labor. The PV is now a minimal slice of it. Which is why mandating solar on new construction is such an important policy: don't make two sets of laborers clamber around the same roof.
micromacrofoot 9mo ago
Almost identical array in the states (7.8kw) — $25K out of pocket, down to about $12K after state and federal tax incentives. Still made sense financially, pays for itself after ~8 years and the panels are warrantied for 30... but we're seriously lagging. There's a similar phenomenon with heat pump systems. Installation costs are absolutely absurd.
choeger 9mo ago
> Dad in Victoria Australia just got 10.6kw fully installed and operational for $4000 AUD. ($2,700 USD) How the heck are the panels even installed and connected for that price? That's about 25 panels, IIRC. What about the installation material and the ac/dc converter?
- testing22321 9mo ago
  All covered in that price. Government incentives. Spend tax dollars putting solar on literally every roof in the country instead of more coal or nuke plants.
blell 9mo ago
OTOH, oil and gas prices in Europe are criminal, so there's that.
- bojan 9mo ago
  Europe has to import both, and the sellers tend to abuse Europe's dependency on it. Europe has what is becoming a survival interest to replace oil and gas as soon as possible.
buckle8017 9mo ago
> Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k grant and $8k interest free loan. So solar only makes sense when it's nearly completely subsidized? That's not the statement you think it is.
WheatMillington 9mo ago
It's criminal to not hand huge subsidies to people like you who are already likely well-off, so you can generate passive income for the rest of your life?
- rfrey 9mo ago
  Oil and gas subsidies in Canada dwarf whatever pittance is tossed out to renewable energy. People getting an interest free loan for rooftop solar may be well off (they own houses), but I guarantee the CEO of TC Energy is doing even better.
- testing22321 9mo ago
  A few things If enough people adopt solar, it gets cheaper, and everyone get cheaper power, or even free like Australia. Tax dollars could be spent on new coal or nuke plants, or to incentivize solar installs. Which one is the right future? Do new coal and nuke plants result in free power like Australia?
prometheus76 9mo ago
Another impact on solar adoption in the United States is that many home insurance companies are refusing to pay on claims against roof damage from poor installs. And there are a lot of poor installs, which has led to this problem. So now the homeowners are taking all of the risk on a solar install that already has an 8-10 year ROI.
vjvjvjvjghv 9mo ago
“Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians.” I think a big part of why the US GDP is so high is that a lot of things are just f…ing expensive. Education, health care, solar, restaurants and so on. You have to actively resist the “usual” lifestyle or you end up in a sea of debt.
andsoitis 9mo ago
> Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. Are you saying that because you assert cost is driven up “artificially” by taxes or other structural headwinds? Or are you saying that fossils enjoy an advantage due to lopsided subsidies? Or something else?
bryanlarsen 9mo ago
Figure out what you can do without a permit or inspections in your jurisdiction. For example, in my jurisdiction it's: < 5 square meters of panels on your roof, <60V DC, AC on homeowner side of panel (as long as electrical work done by homeowner). That's not a lot, but my primary purpose is as a generator replacement -- keep my fridge powered during a summer power outage or my furnace fan powered during a winter one. The other 364 days of the year it just slowly pays for itself. Panels, battery, wiring and paying a roofer to install the flashings for the mounts all cost under $3000. A single one of the required inspections would have cost about that much.

jeorb 9mo ago

The quotes for solar on my home in the US ranged between $40,000 (local company) and $120,000 (Tesla). How did you get solar installed for only $13,000?

abhinavk 9mo ago
They are in Canada.
pbasista 9mo ago
Those numbers are meaningless unless you specify what you get in return. It is like saying that you pay $30,000 for a car. But the most important question is: For which car? Also, if the installation services are so expensive, you can always install everything yourself. Study how to do it, get the tools and materials, and then do it. It would be time-consuming, challenging and perhaps it would carry extra risks. Absolutely. But it is not rocket science. It can be done. As long as there is a motivation to do it, i.e. a good value you will get out of it in return, it should be a valid approach to consider, in my opinion.

jacquesm 9mo ago

And that's $1000 per year at today's energy prices, which surely will go up over time.

testing22321 9mo ago
They’re already locked in approved to go up at least 6% a year here. It just went up 16% this year for people out of town.
njarboe 9mo ago
One could hope with improving tech and decreasing regulations we could have decreasing (nominal) energy prices in the future. That would be progress.
- jacquesm 9mo ago
  Demand is rising very fast compared to supply, I don't think that will happen. Energy is like RAM or clockspeed: you can't have enough of it.
- blitzar 9mo ago
  > decreasing (nominal) energy prices in the future Hasn't happened ever before, not sure why this time it would be different.
  - njarboe 9mo ago
    Happened constantly till around 1970. One horse power used to take a horse. Now a very small electric motor for cents per day.
- zozbot234 9mo ago
  We'll most likely see off-peak or dispatchable-demand energy prices become effectively negligible due to cheap intermittent sources, but the price for reliable 24/7 supply will if anything trend higher. Storage is not enough to bridge the gap in all cases, so you need either very expensive peaker plants or less expensive nuclear to provide a reliable baseload supply for those critical uses.

munk-a 9mo ago

And that on-roof-solar helps (as it becomes widespread) mitigate the growing need for additional grid capacity. Canada is a big country and, outside the major cities, upgrading grid capacity is quite expensive per capita. It's a win-win in Canada, investing in self-sufficiency while reducing the maintenance burden of infrastructure.

GuB-42 9mo ago
If there is no in-house storage to match, how does it help the grid? It is still needed for cold winter nights, where demand is high and solar panels produce nothing. Hydro can provide the power, but the grid will be running at full load.
- adgjlsfhk1 9mo ago
  cold winters aren't as bad for the grid as you might expect because the cold keeps the power lines cold which lets you pump more power through them.
- wussboy 9mo ago
  Most houses in Canada are heated with natural gas. I'm not negating your overall comment, but in general, cold nights don't strain the grid because of heating needs.
  - toomuchtodo 9mo ago
    Latest Data Shows the Rapid Growth of Heat Pumps in Canada - https://www.theenergymix.com/latest-data-shows-the-rapid-growth-of-heat-pumps-in-canada/ https://www.theenergymix.com/latest-data-shows-the-rapid-gro... - November 5th, 2025 (still good news, as most of Canada's electric generation is low carbon hydro, and the rest of fossil generation can be pushed out with storage and renewables, although I do not have a link handy by province how much fossil generation needs to be pushed out)
- ezfe 9mo ago
  in-house storage helps, but net-metering and grid-storage also works

slavik81 9mo ago

The Greener Homes Grant and Greener Homes Loan you describe have ended, but the 160% tarrif on imported solar panels remains. Solar prices in Canada are still quite expensive, and regulations are needlessly strict. Solar fencing is illegal in many jurisdictions, balcony solar is illegal everywhere, and utility-scale solar is effectively prohibited in the regions with the most sunlight. Solar production in Canada will continue to grow, but we're not doing nearly as much as Europe to encourage it.

standeven 9mo ago
Some provincial grants remain ($5k in BC last time I checked), but yes - Canada can and should do more. Balcony solar seems like such an easy win. Hopefully tariffs get dropped now that we’re talking to China again. And federal Liberals could force municipalities and provinces to reduce some of the red tape surrounding solar installations. Come on Canada, unlocking clean energy shouldn’t have to be a fight!
evolve2k 9mo ago
I’m wondering out loud if you might be able to purchase what would essentially be the component parts of a solar panel but deconstructed (eg frame, cells, glass, wires; maybe the cells need further deconstructing) and do final assembly in Canada such that the final panel meets criteria to be “built locally”, potentially built of local and imported parts. Surely local manufacturers don’t use 100% Canadian made parts.

mrits 9mo ago

It's not always a no-brainer. If you live in a good established neighborhood in a warmer climate you'd have to remove tree coverage. Even if you did that, it's the other guys not oil or gas that will make it a hassle.

Tepix 9mo ago
Houses where the roof is completely in the shade from trees? That's not a very common sight.
- treis 9mo ago
  Depends on the city. Here in Atlanta we are a "city in a forest" and for older neighborhoods with mature trees it's more common than not.
- mrits 9mo ago
  It's a very common site and greatly increases the value of the property. It reminds me of when I was telling my Canadian friend how my pool gets a lot of leaves in it from all the trees and they said that was unfortunate. In Austin the pools get too hot to actually swim in if they aren't shaded.
testing22321 9mo ago
New panels are much less impacted by shade. Friends out of town just installed the same setup as ours, didn’t want to cut down three monster Doug firs shading their roof in summer. Made 6.9Mwh in 2025, only just less than ours with no shade at all.
- boringg 9mo ago
  I mean physics would dictate that shade impacts performance but if you are able to break the laws of physics I am impressed!
  - testing22321 9mo ago
    And bifacial panels with higher efficiency were invented to work around that physics. Real numbers don’t lie.

DetectDefect 9mo ago

Missing from your calculus is the cost of creating, cleaning, maintaining and eventually replacing the hardware. None of that is "free" - it is merely externalized to a vulnerable population or to your future self.

microtonal 9mo ago
Missing from your calculus are the healthcare costs of every person in a country breathing in fumes from electricity plants that burn coal and fumes from cars that burn gasoline. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2666759220300500 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S266675922... (And a gazillion other studies.)
- DetectDefect 9mo ago
  [flagged]
  - microtonal 9mo ago
    One should definitely think about the children when choosing coal/gasoline vs. full electric. In fact we did and we have an electric car, replaced our gas cooking top by induction, and our gas-based heating by a heat pump. Last time I boarded an airplane was in 2019 I think.
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
    - DetectDefect 9mo ago
      > In fact we did and we have an electric car, replaced our gas cooking top by induction, and our gas-based heating by a heat pump. Last time I boarded an airplane was in 2019 I think. Fantastic virtue signaling. Of course totally devoid of any mention about the individuals picking raw materials for those electric car components though, since they're not "our" children.

ricardo81 9mo ago

Canada is blessed with cheap energy, the abundance of hydro surely helps to bridge any intermittency other renewables have. I lived there 10 years back, your energy is less than half the cost of mine in Scotland. In Scotland's case we're part of the UK and the rest of the UK is less blessed with the geography for hydro. The incumbent Scottish government also has an anti stance to nuclear. I hope the incentives for cleaner energy continue to stack up. With the surge in demand from AI surely productivity will be more tightly coupled with energy usage and cost.

toomuchtodo 9mo ago
There is enough wind potential in Europe to power the world [1]. Combined with interconnects to Europe and battery storage, there is no reason power costs can't be driven down. To not do so is a lack of will. Scotland currently generates a surplus of renewables [2], exported. kieranmaine's sibling comment citations dives into the lack of will part. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38722022 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38722022 (citations) [2] In Scotland, Renewable Power Has Outstripped Demand - https://e360.yale.edu/digest/scotland-renewable-energy-100-percent https://e360.yale.edu/digest/scotland-renewable-energy-100-p... - January 30th, 2024 (at the rate it takes to deploy transmission, might as well start dropping TBMs in the ground and let them grind towards each other from interconnect landings, potentially faster than the approval grind, complaints from locals about land use and right of ways, etc)
kieranmaine 9mo ago
Related to UK energy I read this interesting article on transmission congestion between Scotland and England and how this is increasing energy costs due to curtailment of renewables. https://ukerc.ac.uk/news/transmission-network-unavailability-the-quiet-driving-force-behind-rising-curtailment-costs-in-great-britain/ https://ukerc.ac.uk/news/transmission-network-unavailability... TL;DR - Until new interconnectors between Scotland and England are finished in 2029, there will be significant curtailment of Scottish wind power which increases costs. This is also an interesting site for seeing curtailment per wind farm - https://windtable.co.uk/data?farm=Seagreen https://windtable.co.uk/data?farm=Seagreen

Tepix 9mo ago

450W-500W solar panels are as low as 52€ here in Germany if you buy a couple of them. Batteries are also very affordable and I look forward to them getting a lot cheaper soon, thanks to Sodium-Ion.

testing22321 9mo ago
The price of panels is falling so fast I don’t think anyone truly understands. I paid nearly double that for our 450w panels 18 months ago.
- toomuchtodo 9mo ago
  They are cheaper than fencing material, and will continue to decline in price.
  - cromka 9mo ago
    And, credit where credit is due, it's all thanks to China.
    - direwolf20 9mo ago
      The one country that still produces goods rather than switching to complete financialization!
      - toomuchtodo 9mo ago
        "How are you so successful?" "Oh, well, we build you know. It's a dying art. Have you tried it?"
      - epolanski 9mo ago
        Just to point out, but producing goods in exchange for pieced of paper is a weak system, especially if it's focus is export and not internal consumption, see Germany, Japan, Italy or China, all slowing down due to their reliance on exports.

boringg 9mo ago

What? No Canada isn't cheap solar power -- last I checked rooftop ballasted solar is a 12-14 year payback on avoided costs. Inverter will go beforehand and that excludes any op costs. 8k$ free loan doesn't really provide as much value as you would think. FWIW - I am all for solar but selling rooftop solar in canada as cheap and no-brainer is false. 3-4 year payback would be a no brainer. 8-13 year payback with an inverter upgrade and op-costs is definitely a decision that needs to be thought out. The grid you are offsetting is fairly green to begin with so the net benefit is marginal. If you are going to be isolated and put backup power into the equation. You ROI tanks further but at least you have about a day or two worth of energy in the storage asset.

aclatuts 9mo ago
Anything under $2.25/watt would put it within under a 4 year payback period, Alberta has good rates for solar. Rooftop solar doesn't have operating costs that I can think of unless you want to clean them and clear snow which is optional. And inverters usually have a 20-25 year warranty.
- boringg 9mo ago
  Inverters are 5-10 year warranty.
rngfnby 9mo ago
Largely agree, with one big nitpick. Canada is a massive exporter of electricity to the USA. The more clean energy CND produces the more there is to displace North East's coal. Of course, solar on Canadians' roof is a joke. A proper regulatory regime would encourage solar in Arizona and encourage lettuce Canada; not vice versa.
- boringg 9mo ago
  I don't disagree but the major energy being exported is from hydro or nuclear. It isn't coming off rooftop even at the margins. Rooftop solar is purely residential play. If you are trying to argue that in aggregate the demand for energy in canada drops because of high adoption of residential solar which then passes off clean energy to the US - its a reach. Also the amount of individual infra for each small residential asset is probably not particularly great return on investment - would be better to do as large deployments.

PunchyHamster 9mo ago

We have similar problem with prices being high despise renewable energy being cheap ;/

dyauspitr 9mo ago

What is the underlying reason in the US though? You would think if they are artificially inflated prices the market would fix that. What I’ve found is that a large part of the cost is the actual labor for the installation, how are other developed countries getting around this?

account42 9mo ago
Mostly by giving people free money to install them so they go on the internet to say how cheap they are.
- amanaplanacanal 9mo ago
  That might be cheaper than grid upgrades though. Even though some people might get upset that somebody else is getting something for free.
philipkglass 9mo ago
It's mostly due to higher "soft costs" such as complicated/slow permitting and high customer acquisition costs. Australia has a higher minimum wage but much lower costs to get a rooftop system installed. "How to cut U.S. residential solar costs in half" https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/11/how-to-cut-u-s-residential-solar-costs-in-half/ https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2025/07/11/how-to-cut-u-s-reside... Birch points to Australia, where he said the average 7 kW solar array with a 7 kW battery costs $14,000. That equates to $2.02 per W, with batteries included. “You can sell it on Tuesday and install it on Wednesday, there’s no red tape, no permitting delays,” said Birch. ... In the United States, that same solar and battery installation averages $36,000, said Birch. Permitting alone can take two to six months, and the cost per watt of a solar plus storage installation is up to 2.5 times the Australian price, landing at $5.18 per W.
- testing22321 9mo ago
  Those numbers for Australia are very out of date. My Dad in Australia just got 10.6kw fully installed and running for $4,000 AUD

AnotherGoodName 9mo ago

>Australia has so much electricity during the day they’re talking about making I free for everyone in the middle of the day. Not just talking about it, if you get a smart meter and sign up for a plan that matches the grid rates you can actually be paid to take electricity during the day right now. If you're wondering "couldn't you just make bank with a battery" yes you can. In fact Australia dominates the world in grid connected storage (per capita) and this chart itself is actually out of date (it's growing even faster than shown). https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/top-20-countries-by-battery-storage-capacity/ https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/top-20-countries-by-ba... I'll also point out that gas and oil generation has declined rapidly. https://reneweconomy.com.au/the-rise-of-battery-storage-and-why-the-grid-is-rapidly-passing-gas/ https://reneweconomy.com.au/the-rise-of-battery-storage-and-... For anyone that thinks renewables can't phase out peaker plants it happens very naturally and rapidly once there's enough solar to set rates negative in the day.

bmelton 9mo ago
How is it that people haven't turned to bitcoin mining (or similarly large energy dumps) during the daytime?
- AnotherGoodName 9mo ago
  The cost of the rig and the few inconsistent hours a day its negative i’d guess. It’s not in the negative enough to be worthwhile dumping max amps but it’s certainly worth storing to buffer against peak hour pricing.

dataviz1000 9mo ago

> Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. It would be worth including control of the people who vote for the politicians by direct investment such as when the oil producing Saudis bought the second largest stake in NewCorps which controls FoxNews controlling the content that influences voters. And, less than ethical control using bots on social media by Russia. A lot of what influences "solar prices in the US" is controlled by foreign oil producing countries like Saudi Arabia and Russia controlling content and media consumed by American voters.

apercu 9mo ago
I agree wholeheartedly, and the technocrats are complicit with the GOP here. It's funny how “free markets” keep producing the most expensive solar prices in the developed world. Don't get me started on Healthcare (I just moved back to the U.S. a couple years ago after 18 years in Canada, what a cluster*ck). Oil and gas buy politicians, foreign oil money buys media influence, and social-media bots keep voters angry at the wrong targets. Saudi capital helps shape the messaging, Russia helps amplify the noise, and Americans get stuck paying more for clean energy while being told it’s patriotic. But hey, Make America Great Again, right?
- sl_convertible 9mo ago
  If even a Democratically-led California is doing this, how can you point fingers at just the GOP? It's endemic to the system, and not restricted to just one party.
  - jaksdfkskf 9mo ago
    [dead]
  - daveguy 9mo ago
    Republicans are always trying to increase and protect oil subsidizes, cheer "drill baby drill", and have social media tools peddling their bs who are funded by foreign influence campaigns. The Democats may not be perfect, but they are much more likely to cut oil subsidies or at least subsidize solar and other renewables to balance. This is especially true as the next generation takes over by primarying the tepid fossils currently in office. Meanwhile, dear leader Dumpty likes to suggest windmills cause cancer because he doesn't like what they look like on the horizon of his golf dumps. Saying this is a "both sides" problem is laughable.

ApolloFortyNine 9mo ago

>Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. >Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k grant and $8k interest free loan. This very well may be true, but taken at face value Canada seems to be paying you around $7k to install solar panels on your roof (that's 8k interest free loan is losing out to inflation + any interest it would have earned). Definitely a great deal if you own a home, if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however.

Zigurd 9mo ago
Be less annoyed because utility demand declines.
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
testing22321 9mo ago
> if I was a renter/condo owner I'd be annoyed that everyone is subsidizing your free solar however. As a non car owner are you annoyed everyone gets subsidized roads? Are you annoyed corn farmers get subsidies for growing corn? Would you be annoyed if people got subsidized life saving health care? It feels like the US can’t have nice things because people are hell bent on others not having nice things. What a shame.
- _aavaa_ 9mo ago
  > As a non car owner are you annoyed everyone gets subsidized roads? Yes, and people should be annoyed by this given the underfunding, poor urban planning, and outright hostility by many local governments against anything that dares encroach on the sanctity of car culture.
  - simion314 9mo ago
    >Yes, and people should be annoyed by this So you do not use busses,taxi or road travel? do you fly all the time? Do you have stuff delivered by truck/cars or only by air? What about shopping? do you think the items you buy or the things needed to make those items use roads ? In a perfect extremist capitalist word there would be a road tax included in the products and services so you would still pay the text for the roads.

pear01 9mo ago

US also tariffs Chinese EV makers out of the US market so they can keep peddling the fiction that EV sucks or China can't build anything we can't. This has the same corrupt nexus with the anti-renewable mantra. Essentially subsidize oil and gas under the table and punish renewables then tell the electorate that the latter is worse than the former. Instead of giving Americans free choice American automakers pay American politicians to prop up their uncompetitive prices and subpar offerings. All while they take in huge private profits. American workers could work on foreign automobiles, just as they do with other automakers not from China. It's not about workers, it's not about national security. You don't even have to go into all the environmental concerns that of course disproportionately affect poorer individuals. It's corporate welfare. And yes, it should be criminal. At the very least, if the American people are going to inflate CEOs salaries they should have seats on the board. This is actually not a wild idea. You might be surprised to find who one of the largest shareholders of the Volkswagen group is. It's not like that is an obviously mismanaged socialist hellhole company, it's a perfectly competitive and well regarded car company. Americans need to start demanding more equity or oversight in operations their governments are already paying for. The fact most Americans think this amounts to communism just means more people have to call out the money is already flowing.

testing22321 9mo ago
I’m really happy Canada just dropped the Chinese EV tariffs.

apexalpha 9mo ago

>Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k grant and $8k interest free loan. €13.000 for this still seems expensive. Are there tariffs on Chinese PV in Canada?

canucktrash669 9mo ago
13k CAD is €8.000
matthewdgreen 9mo ago
Most rooftop install costs are labor. The PV is now a minimal slice of it. Which is why mandating solar on new construction is such an important policy: don't make two sets of laborers clamber around the same roof.

micromacrofoot 9mo ago

Almost identical array in the states (7.8kw) — $25K out of pocket, down to about $12K after state and federal tax incentives. Still made sense financially, pays for itself after ~8 years and the panels are warrantied for 30... but we're seriously lagging. There's a similar phenomenon with heat pump systems. Installation costs are absolutely absurd.

choeger 9mo ago

> Dad in Victoria Australia just got 10.6kw fully installed and operational for $4000 AUD. ($2,700 USD) How the heck are the panels even installed and connected for that price? That's about 25 panels, IIRC. What about the installation material and the ac/dc converter?

testing22321 9mo ago
All covered in that price. Government incentives. Spend tax dollars putting solar on literally every roof in the country instead of more coal or nuke plants.

blell 9mo ago

OTOH, oil and gas prices in Europe are criminal, so there's that.

bojan 9mo ago
Europe has to import both, and the sellers tend to abuse Europe's dependency on it. Europe has what is becoming a survival interest to replace oil and gas as soon as possible.

buckle8017 9mo ago

> Canada here. 7.6kw on our roof for $0 out of pocket thanks to $5k grant and $8k interest free loan. So solar only makes sense when it's nearly completely subsidized? That's not the statement you think it is.

WheatMillington 9mo ago

It's criminal to not hand huge subsidies to people like you who are already likely well-off, so you can generate passive income for the rest of your life?

rfrey 9mo ago
Oil and gas subsidies in Canada dwarf whatever pittance is tossed out to renewable energy. People getting an interest free loan for rooftop solar may be well off (they own houses), but I guarantee the CEO of TC Energy is doing even better.
testing22321 9mo ago
A few things If enough people adopt solar, it gets cheaper, and everyone get cheaper power, or even free like Australia. Tax dollars could be spent on new coal or nuke plants, or to incentivize solar installs. Which one is the right future? Do new coal and nuke plants result in free power like Australia?

prometheus76 9mo ago

Another impact on solar adoption in the United States is that many home insurance companies are refusing to pay on claims against roof damage from poor installs. And there are a lot of poor installs, which has led to this problem. So now the homeowners are taking all of the risk on a solar install that already has an 8-10 year ROI.

vjvjvjvjghv 9mo ago

“Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians.” I think a big part of why the US GDP is so high is that a lot of things are just f…ing expensive. Education, health care, solar, restaurants and so on. You have to actively resist the “usual” lifestyle or you end up in a sea of debt.

andsoitis 9mo ago

> Solar prices in the US are criminal, protecting oil and gas who bought all the politicians. Are you saying that because you assert cost is driven up “artificially” by taxes or other structural headwinds? Or are you saying that fossils enjoy an advantage due to lopsided subsidies? Or something else?

bryanlarsen 9mo ago

Figure out what you can do without a permit or inspections in your jurisdiction. For example, in my jurisdiction it's: < 5 square meters of panels on your roof, <60V DC, AC on homeowner side of panel (as long as electrical work done by homeowner). That's not a lot, but my primary purpose is as a generator replacement -- keep my fridge powered during a summer power outage or my furnace fan powered during a winter one. The other 364 days of the year it just slowly pays for itself. Panels, battery, wiring and paying a roofer to install the flashings for the mounts all cost under $3000. A single one of the required inspections would have cost about that much.