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I really looking forward to this! I love being in the EU and I really like living in Germany. But creating and operating a small company in Germany is a nightma

I really looking forward to this! I love being in the EU and I really like living in Germany. But creating and operating a small company in Germany is a nightmare, I hope this can give smaller EU companies agility and frictionless setup and operation so they can focus on building products and providing services to their customers.

embedding-shape 9mo ago
Sounds like a German problem. When I last set up a company in Sweden I literally went to web UI and clicked "Create Company" basically, filled in some details and it was done. Similar experience in Spain, fill out 2-3 forms and it's done. How much more process could the German government really add here? Reviews and interviews, or what exactly is the bureaucracy you're complaining about here?
- kleiba 9mo ago
  > How much more process could the German government really add here? Hahaha, good one, little padavan...
  - jcmartinezdev 9mo ago
    Never underestimate the power of german bureaucracy lol
- jcmartinezdev 9mo ago
  That's great to know! In Germany it involves a lot of physical paperwork, going to a notary to certify the creation, taxes are a nightmare, every change you need to make again you need a notary. It's so frustrating!
- noosphr 9mo ago
  It takes 8 weeks from start to finish to be able to get paid for your first sale as a German limited liability company. People outside of Germany really have no idea how sclerotic the state is. Mean while Germans suffer from the brain damage of having lived there their whole lives and don't see a problem with this. If you think brain damage is too strong a word, the last time I brought it up a bunch of Germans came out of the wood work to defend an 8 week process as completely reasonable. Then when told I could do the same thing in Australia in 15 minutes they insinuated I was probably a criminal for wanting less paper work to open a business there.
  - RandomLensman 9mo ago
    What type of company structure was that?
    - jcmartinezdev 9mo ago
      gmbh or UG, takes about that time to set up, you can start billing before, but still... this is a lot of time of manual paperwork.
      - RandomLensman 9mo ago
        But you could choose other forms, no?
  - lm28469 9mo ago
    > It takes 8 weeks from start to finish to be able to get paid for your first sale as a German company. You can bill as soon as you started the process afaik
    - noosphr 9mo ago
      As soon as you talk to a notary to prove that you're really opening a company you can get the provisional business license, or whatever they call it, to open a bank account. After you open that bank account you need to talk to the notary again to start registering the real company. Then you need to transfer the bank account from the place holder company to the real company. I may be misremembering the exact steps because I tried drilling all those memories out of my head as soon as I left Germany.
    - defo10 9mo ago
      You can bill, but the company owners are completely liable until the process is completed. Then the liability goes over to the company. Quite the risk if you ask me.
      - LunaSea 9mo ago
- 47282847 9mo ago
  Company formation in Germany requires identity and statute checks by a notary. You can nowadays do that remotely via video appointment but it’s still a bit of a hassle and delay. It’s not as bad as people claim, or rather: if people already have difficulties with that step I wonder how much fun they will have with “bureaucracy” later on. Frankly, I understand how one can be annoyed at certain requirements but how do people imagine it without those? I can totally accept temporary annoyances since ultimately all of it serves to protect me from harm as a customer. I really don’t want to deal with companies whose founders already find the quite straightforward registration procedure too difficult. The claim by others in this thread that you have to wait for the registration entry is false, your company is created the moment you pass notarization. While it makes proof of existence easier to be in the database, you can act and get bank accounts etc with those documents already. And I doubt the stability of your business idea if you cannot even wait a bit.
  - cm2012 9mo ago
    Friction is a death by 1000 cuts. Its a week here, an in person appointment there, another 2 weeks to send in a different ID - all of that adds up to an environment where people are reluctant to do anything new.
    - 47282847 9mo ago
      I have personally founded multiple successful German companies and non-profits, and have advised dozens in doing so, and yeah I really don’t mind if those that are reluctant because of one appointment to not start whatever grand business idea they might have, and doubt that they will make it elsewhere. Not everyone with (maybe) good ideas is made to run a business.
- westpfelia 9mo ago
  I'm pretty sure Sweden is the most business friendly country. its why so many people move their business from Norway to Sweden.
- pimterry 9mo ago
  > Similar experience in Spain, fill out 2-3 forms and it's done. This isn't true in Spain - all company creation requires a notary, among other awkward steps (although as of relatively recently in some cases you can now do this over videoconference, without physically visiting at least). It's not as bad as what I hear of in Germany, but it's non-trivial and slow, and the banking setup process is similarly annoying and slower than it should be. You can register as autonomo (an individual freelancer) easily with just a couple of forms, but that is not the same thing as creating a separate legal business entity (SL).
direwolf20 9mo ago
[dead]
lnsru 9mo ago
Can you elaborate more? I am self employed electrician in Bavaria using simple Gewerbe. It is straightforward at the beginning. Literally hundreds of webpages describe the procedure. It is obvious, that growing the company into GmbH with own VAT number increases the complexity. But I haven’t seen it other way in Europe.
- jcmartinezdev 9mo ago
  I had my experience with bootstrapping a self founded UG (Unternehmergesellschaft), and the process was long (about 8 weeks), involving me getting support from a company (firma.de) to help me prepare all the documentation which involved a lot of physical paperwork, then there's the visit to the notary which is required. After you do that, you need to register with the Finanzamt, and then you start finding out about all this other registries you need to pay and register to, or that you're automatically registered, but you receive separate invoices. Any changes you need to make, adding more capital, change address, requires again, paperwork, tons of hours and again the notary. Taxes are also quite difficult to figure out, I'm not German born, and my German is good for conversation, but to read and understand the tax has been a problem and I had to rely on very expensive tax consultants. (I know, this is my problem, not a german problem) It's not that is hard, it's very time consuming, manual, and involves a lot of paperwork. Other countries do this much easier. Also, shutting down a company... I'm still trying to figure that out :(
  - traceroute66 9mo ago
    > I had my experience with bootstrapping a self founded UG (Unternehmergesellschaft), and the process was long (about 8 weeks) It would have been significantly quicker if you used a well-connected law firm. I know a number of friends of friends in Germany who have all visited the lawyer, the notary and the bank all in the course of one morning. The whole experience was orchestrated by the lawyer because they knew the notary and the bank manager. In some cases the lawyer even drove them around between locations. ;) The Steuerberater then took care of the Finanzamt. Of course this entails extra professional fees. But the point is that there are many examples out there showing it can be done in less than 8 weeks.
traceroute66 9mo ago
> creating and operating a small company in Germany is a nightmare To be fair, I think the problem operating in Germany is its federated nature. And so you have similar issues to companies operating in other federated jurisdictions e.g. US. If you look at the UK (through pre-Brexit eyes, of course) or Ireland, establishing and operating companies is significantly easier.
simon_a99 9mo ago
Unfortunately it's likely that Germany will reject this change. Incorporation in Germany is highly bureaucratic and it requires physical notarisation. Its not a mistake, Germany has an incredibly powerful notary lobby that has already announced its opposition to this. https://www.bnotk.de/en/tasks-and-activities/magazines/bnotk-international/details/heading-towards-a-28th-regime-in-european-company-law?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.bnotk.de/en/tasks-and-activities/magazines/bnotk...
- causalscience 9mo ago
  Lobbies whose only purpose is to sustain themselves even at the cost of maintaining friction should be made illegal.
  - darthwalsh 9mo ago
    Maybe you could create a ballot initiative for the next election, that would disband the lobby? See how the people vote.
  - runeks 9mo ago
    You should lobby for this

embedding-shape 9mo ago

Sounds like a German problem. When I last set up a company in Sweden I literally went to web UI and clicked "Create Company" basically, filled in some details and it was done. Similar experience in Spain, fill out 2-3 forms and it's done. How much more process could the German government really add here? Reviews and interviews, or what exactly is the bureaucracy you're complaining about here?

kleiba 9mo ago
> How much more process could the German government really add here? Hahaha, good one, little padavan...
- jcmartinezdev 9mo ago
  Never underestimate the power of german bureaucracy lol
jcmartinezdev 9mo ago
That's great to know! In Germany it involves a lot of physical paperwork, going to a notary to certify the creation, taxes are a nightmare, every change you need to make again you need a notary. It's so frustrating!
noosphr 9mo ago
It takes 8 weeks from start to finish to be able to get paid for your first sale as a German limited liability company. People outside of Germany really have no idea how sclerotic the state is. Mean while Germans suffer from the brain damage of having lived there their whole lives and don't see a problem with this. If you think brain damage is too strong a word, the last time I brought it up a bunch of Germans came out of the wood work to defend an 8 week process as completely reasonable. Then when told I could do the same thing in Australia in 15 minutes they insinuated I was probably a criminal for wanting less paper work to open a business there.
- RandomLensman 9mo ago
  What type of company structure was that?
  - jcmartinezdev 9mo ago
    gmbh or UG, takes about that time to set up, you can start billing before, but still... this is a lot of time of manual paperwork.
    - RandomLensman 9mo ago
      But you could choose other forms, no?
- lm28469 9mo ago
  > It takes 8 weeks from start to finish to be able to get paid for your first sale as a German company. You can bill as soon as you started the process afaik
  - noosphr 9mo ago
    As soon as you talk to a notary to prove that you're really opening a company you can get the provisional business license, or whatever they call it, to open a bank account. After you open that bank account you need to talk to the notary again to start registering the real company. Then you need to transfer the bank account from the place holder company to the real company. I may be misremembering the exact steps because I tried drilling all those memories out of my head as soon as I left Germany.
  - defo10 9mo ago
    You can bill, but the company owners are completely liable until the process is completed. Then the liability goes over to the company. Quite the risk if you ask me.
    - LunaSea 9mo ago
47282847 9mo ago
Company formation in Germany requires identity and statute checks by a notary. You can nowadays do that remotely via video appointment but it’s still a bit of a hassle and delay. It’s not as bad as people claim, or rather: if people already have difficulties with that step I wonder how much fun they will have with “bureaucracy” later on. Frankly, I understand how one can be annoyed at certain requirements but how do people imagine it without those? I can totally accept temporary annoyances since ultimately all of it serves to protect me from harm as a customer. I really don’t want to deal with companies whose founders already find the quite straightforward registration procedure too difficult. The claim by others in this thread that you have to wait for the registration entry is false, your company is created the moment you pass notarization. While it makes proof of existence easier to be in the database, you can act and get bank accounts etc with those documents already. And I doubt the stability of your business idea if you cannot even wait a bit.
- cm2012 9mo ago
  Friction is a death by 1000 cuts. Its a week here, an in person appointment there, another 2 weeks to send in a different ID - all of that adds up to an environment where people are reluctant to do anything new.
  - 47282847 9mo ago
    I have personally founded multiple successful German companies and non-profits, and have advised dozens in doing so, and yeah I really don’t mind if those that are reluctant because of one appointment to not start whatever grand business idea they might have, and doubt that they will make it elsewhere. Not everyone with (maybe) good ideas is made to run a business.
westpfelia 9mo ago
I'm pretty sure Sweden is the most business friendly country. its why so many people move their business from Norway to Sweden.
pimterry 9mo ago
> Similar experience in Spain, fill out 2-3 forms and it's done. This isn't true in Spain - all company creation requires a notary, among other awkward steps (although as of relatively recently in some cases you can now do this over videoconference, without physically visiting at least). It's not as bad as what I hear of in Germany, but it's non-trivial and slow, and the banking setup process is similarly annoying and slower than it should be. You can register as autonomo (an individual freelancer) easily with just a couple of forms, but that is not the same thing as creating a separate legal business entity (SL).

direwolf20 9mo ago

[dead]

lnsru 9mo ago

Can you elaborate more? I am self employed electrician in Bavaria using simple Gewerbe. It is straightforward at the beginning. Literally hundreds of webpages describe the procedure. It is obvious, that growing the company into GmbH with own VAT number increases the complexity. But I haven’t seen it other way in Europe.

jcmartinezdev 9mo ago
I had my experience with bootstrapping a self founded UG (Unternehmergesellschaft), and the process was long (about 8 weeks), involving me getting support from a company (firma.de) to help me prepare all the documentation which involved a lot of physical paperwork, then there's the visit to the notary which is required. After you do that, you need to register with the Finanzamt, and then you start finding out about all this other registries you need to pay and register to, or that you're automatically registered, but you receive separate invoices. Any changes you need to make, adding more capital, change address, requires again, paperwork, tons of hours and again the notary. Taxes are also quite difficult to figure out, I'm not German born, and my German is good for conversation, but to read and understand the tax has been a problem and I had to rely on very expensive tax consultants. (I know, this is my problem, not a german problem) It's not that is hard, it's very time consuming, manual, and involves a lot of paperwork. Other countries do this much easier. Also, shutting down a company... I'm still trying to figure that out :(
- traceroute66 9mo ago
  > I had my experience with bootstrapping a self founded UG (Unternehmergesellschaft), and the process was long (about 8 weeks) It would have been significantly quicker if you used a well-connected law firm. I know a number of friends of friends in Germany who have all visited the lawyer, the notary and the bank all in the course of one morning. The whole experience was orchestrated by the lawyer because they knew the notary and the bank manager. In some cases the lawyer even drove them around between locations. ;) The Steuerberater then took care of the Finanzamt. Of course this entails extra professional fees. But the point is that there are many examples out there showing it can be done in less than 8 weeks.

traceroute66 9mo ago

> creating and operating a small company in Germany is a nightmare To be fair, I think the problem operating in Germany is its federated nature. And so you have similar issues to companies operating in other federated jurisdictions e.g. US. If you look at the UK (through pre-Brexit eyes, of course) or Ireland, establishing and operating companies is significantly easier.

simon_a99 9mo ago

Unfortunately it's likely that Germany will reject this change. Incorporation in Germany is highly bureaucratic and it requires physical notarisation. Its not a mistake, Germany has an incredibly powerful notary lobby that has already announced its opposition to this. https://www.bnotk.de/en/tasks-and-activities/magazines/bnotk-international/details/heading-towards-a-28th-regime-in-european-company-law?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.bnotk.de/en/tasks-and-activities/magazines/bnotk...

causalscience 9mo ago
Lobbies whose only purpose is to sustain themselves even at the cost of maintaining friction should be made illegal.
- darthwalsh 9mo ago
  Maybe you could create a ballot initiative for the next election, that would disband the lobby? See how the people vote.
- runeks 9mo ago
  You should lobby for this