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When you say "nearly limitless" source of borrowing, the limit is the gain in global wealth. The US has been siphoning off a huge chunk of world wealth by prin

When you say "nearly limitless" source of borrowing, the limit is the gain in global wealth. The US has been siphoning off a huge chunk of world wealth by printing dollars to serve as the currency for that wealth. All the people complaining about "US Debt" and $26T of "net investment" or whatever don't realize that this is/was the benefit of the US being stable, strong, and friendly. When the US is unstable, weak, and a bully, as it is now, all that goes away. The bill comes due, and the US will pay dearly. The rest of the world will pay nothing.

adventured 9mo ago
The US is more stable than the powers of Europe (which have constant political upheavals, snap elections that completely remake the political landscape, etc). You're confusing Trump's mouth with how the US political system actually functions. Just because the US changes political direction, that doesn't equate to instability. Its aims are changing, like it or not, good or bad. The US deciding it wants Greenland is not a proof of instability, it's a change in the strategic goals held by the people controlling the superpower. And the US is at a high level of strength, not weakness. Its large corporations hold sway over the globe in a manner the likes of which has never been seen before in modern history. Its military has force projection to nearly every point on the globe, with hundreds of global military bases. Its national wealth is at an all-time high. Its stock markets are at all-time highs. Its median income is at an all-time high. Its median disposable income is at an all-time high. Its housing wealth is at an all-time high.
- triceratops 9mo ago
  > Its median income is at an all-time high. Its median dispoable income is at an all-time high. Its housing wealth is at an all-time high. Then why is everyone so damned unhappy all the time?
  - xienze 9mo ago
    The US used to be a much more homogeneous country, which certainly makes it a lot easier for everyone to be on the same page because of shared cultural values. That has changed dramatically in the past few decades and with it, places where Americans can find common ground. Other western countries are going down the exact same path, just a bit behind us.
    - triceratops 9mo ago
      I love how racism gets snuck into everything these days. No, homogeneity doesn't cause happiness.[1] And the US was always less homogenous than other "western" countries. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Japan#Suicide_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Japan#Suicide_proble...
      - xienze 9mo ago
        > No, homogeneity doesn't cause happiness. Funny though how all those European countries everyone on HN and Reddit point to as "how things should be" are all pretty ethnically and culturally homogenous, though that's changing rapidly. Interestingly, cracks are starting to appear. > And the US was always less homogenous than other "western" countries. The US was 85-90% white in 1965. That's pretty homogenous.
        epistasis 9mo ago
        What is considered "white" now certainly wasn't in the past. It took a long time before Italians were considered to be part of the in-group. Irish and Italian people were considered an inferior race and suffered extreme racial prejudice when lots of immigrants came from those nations. And that evolution itself tells the story of the US itself. The people in non-homogenous neighborhoods are happy and harmonious, but outsiders scared of cultural differences cause racial strife and discontent. Those who let themselves get worked up about racism are the problem, not the non-homogenous races.
        triceratops 9mo ago
  - epistasis 9mo ago
    The combination of median disposable income and housing wealth being at all time highs is a big part of it! Those with housing have locked others out of housing, causing lots of "wealth" that those with housing don't even consider to be wealth. They think it's just "normal" and don't realize the massive advantage it gives them over everybody stuck renting. But that's symptomatic of all the other inequality. Housing is the biggest expense, and most obvious form of rent extraction that the wealthy use to exploit those without wealth, but it's not the only one.
- blibble 9mo ago
  > The US is more stable than the powers of Europe (which have constant political upheavals, snap elections that completely remake the political landscape, etc). You're confusing Trump's mouth with how the US political system actually functions. this is satire right? the UK's system is close to 1000 years old I doubt the current US system will last another decade > with hundreds of global military bases all of which will evaporate the moment it does anything to Greenland
  - adventured 9mo ago
    The UK's current system is realistically about the same age as the US, their first PM was in the 18th century. Unless you're claiming the King/Queen is still in control of everything. You can't have that premise both ways.
    - blibble 9mo ago
      > The UK's current system is realistically about the same age as the US no, it's evolved continuously from 1066 by the time of the US rebellion, the king was already neutered > their first PM was in the 18th century. the title of "Prime Minister" is a modern invention (and not a formal position) there has been a Lord High Treasurer since the 1100s a constitutionally limited monarchy is older than the US meanwhile the modern US seems to be a absolute monarchy that isn't constitutionally limited
- deleted 9mo ago
  [deleted]
- GJim 9mo ago
  > The US is more stable than the powers of Europe ....... You're confusing Trump's mouth with how the US political system actually functions. Eh? If the US political system was stable and fit for purpose, the US would have got rid of the wannabe dictator by now; or at least held his power in check. EDIT: Amusingly, I'm being downvoted by a class of American who refuses to believe their way might not be the best after all. Even when the facts are staring them in the face.
  - epistasis 9mo ago
    As a US citizen, I agree with you that if the US was a stable power we would have gotten rid of the dictator for good after the first term. And most definitely after trying to usurp an entire election. Or worst case after he issued pardons to all people involved in any way to usurp the election, including many hardened criminals. After all these things, even if we get control of the US government and place it into stable, hands, it will take a generation to rebuild the broken trust. But I don't think that the people downvoting you are necessarily other US citizens. It feels like HN is very good at eliminating bots, but in these sorts of discussions lots of sleeper agent bots come out to try to shift discussion. Every bit of our social media is full of it and I think that the downvotes your comment probably come from that.
    - GJim 9mo ago
      > I don't think that the people downvoting you are necessarily other US citizens. ....... sleeper agent bots come out to try to shift discussion Interesting point. I (very likely) stand corrected.
- 7speter 9mo ago
  > And the US is at a high level of strength, not weakness. Its large corporations hold sway over the globe in a manner the likes of which has never been seen before in modern history. Its military has force projection to nearly every point on the globe, with hundreds of global military bases. Its national wealth is at an all-time high. Its stock markets are at all-time highs. Its median income is at an all-time high. Its median dispoable income is at an all-time high. Its housing wealth is at an all-time high This is in part because other countries allow American countries to come in and take over markets.
- jimnotgym 9mo ago
  In a war type scenario between US and Europe, what do you think will happen to those large corporations 'sway'? Their assets will be confiscated, their systems cut off or repurposed. It will immediately end any sway those corporations had
  - floatrock 9mo ago
    and to op's point about > Its military has force projection to nearly every point on the globe, with hundreds of global military bases How are the hosts to all those bases going to react when suddenly the guest acts belligerent? When the ally drops down to an occupier, that force projection suddenly starts looking like occupation, which becomes a lot more expensive to maintain. And the expense has worked until now because everyone else has wanted our currency so what's a bit more currency printing, but when we kick our own global reserve currency status because we fucked all of our allies, well now that "force projections becomes a lot more expensive" actually becomes expensive^squared. This is absolutely idiotic for anyone who indulges in the privileges of empire.
- justin66 9mo ago
  > The US is more stable than the powers of Europe (which have constant political upheavals, snap elections that completely remake the political landscape, etc) How many European powers have had their incumbent head of state violently attempt to hold onto power after losing an election after January 6th, 2021?
  - epistasis 9mo ago
    A stable country would do what South Korea or Brazil did: imprison the criminal. Instead, in the US, we have our supposed captains of industry wielding chain saws on stage to publicly support the wannabe tyrant, and donating billions behind the scenes to privately support the wannabe tyrant.
- epistasis 9mo ago
  > You're confusing Trump's mouth with how the US political system actually functions. I'm not confusing anything, right now Trump's mouth IS the political system in the US. Republicans control every aspect of the government completely, all the way through to the checks of the US Supreme Court. No Republican has enough backbone to stand up to Trump, and if they do gain a backbone to stand up to Trump at all, like MTG, they exit politics quickly. Thomas Massie is the closest to somebody who is standing up to Trump. If Republicans in the Senate were willing to stay in office yet defect from the party, that would be enough to stand up to Trump, but even that's not happening. Right now, the US is in a position not unlike Imperial Japan, right before they launched an attack on the US, forcing the US into WW2. High Command wants somebody to stand up and stop the obviously bad action, but nobody is willing to make the short-term sacrifice for the long-term good.
- isodev 9mo ago
  > The US is more stable than the powers of Europe (which have constant political upheavals, snap elections that completely remake the political landscape, etc) Can you name 26 countries with the same level of unity and cooperation with the US as what exists between the 27 members of the EU (and larger economic zone)? The US is but one country. If you zoom into states, you’d see a lot more bickering and division - y’all just sent your military against your own people just now…
- senderista 9mo ago
  Sorry, Trump insisting on annexing Greenland is not a "change in strategic goals", it's a toddler's petulant obsession. The US already had carte blanche from Denmark to do pretty much whatever it wanted in Greenland. Besides Trump, I doubt there's another official in the WH who wants this. They are all just humoring the demented old man.
mym1990 9mo ago
Its baffling that you think the collapse of the USD would have no negative ramifications on the rest of the world...
- PartiallyTyped 9mo ago
  It will suck, and then it will get better.
  - mym1990 9mo ago
    Yes but you have a) no idea how bad the suck will be b) no idea how long the suck will last and c) what the "better" will look like. I am not advocating that the status quo should go on, I am just saying that the repercussions will be vast and long lasting, likely resulting in a world war, and whatever follows after that(if anything).
- 7speter 9mo ago
  The negative ramifications seem to be better than being invaded by the US or having regional entities invaded by the US, and the ensuing instability as a result. If its going to be like this the rest of the world might as well cut its losses
  - mym1990 9mo ago
    You seem to have a very limited view of the world if you think the US doesn't have fans of totalitarian rule and that the "rest of the world" is exclusively against US global strategy. I am going to guess that you actually have no idea what the negative ramifications of the collapse of a currency that underpins the foundations of our world are, because it is something that is near impossible to predict. I agree that at some point, governments and people will need to step up and fight back, but the idea that the US will somehow fall in a vacuum and everyone else will live happily ever after is laughable.
    - staplers 9mo ago
      the US will somehow fall in a vacuum and everyone else will live happily ever after is laughable. If enough countries collectively decide to not export to the US, it's game over. See Cuba as an example. Not everything is a movie with a final battle. Alternatives are found and adopted all the time without violent strife.
corimaith 9mo ago
You do realise it is arthimetically impossible to balance all the desired export surpluses of the EU, China, Japan, etc together without the US as the demand sink right? Whatever adjustment comes is certainly going to require somebody to act in a manner contrary to their current strategies, and it's going to be a painful adjustment. And which is harder? Bringing back production to satiate domestic demand or increasing domestic demand? Historically, demand deficiency is much harder to restore.
- monero-xmr 9mo ago
  Single most accurate and astute comment on the entire page. Not everyone can be a net exporter, of course…
  - epistasis 9mo ago
    Think one step further. When a different currency becomes the reserve currency, the currency rises in value, the holders become far wealthier, get their imports for cheaper, and suddenly they can even subsidize their local industries that rely on exports to the point that it's a smooth transition to more of a consumer economy.
    - monero-xmr 9mo ago
      [flagged]
      - epistasis 9mo ago
        > no armies, can’t defend itself, can’t make energy. Look I love dumping on the Europoors as much as anyone, but even I can see that this is a bit extreme. "Decadence?" What does that even mean here? That people are happy and secure and have good qualities of life, without worrying about everything falling apart? The US is not fine, and is falling apart. The US is living decadently on its reserve currency status, which enable things like ridiculously wasteful and unproductive military spending. Even its military spending on things like the, say, F35, require external customers in order for it to make any sense at all. But all that decadence is at risk. Decadence is good, I want it, I don't want austerity. Give me this awesome US decadence or I'll have to settle for the fake European "decadence" which is mere economic and health security without all the extra spending that US consumers get to make.

adventured 9mo ago

The US is more stable than the powers of Europe (which have constant political upheavals, snap elections that completely remake the political landscape, etc). You're confusing Trump's mouth with how the US political system actually functions. Just because the US changes political direction, that doesn't equate to instability. Its aims are changing, like it or not, good or bad. The US deciding it wants Greenland is not a proof of instability, it's a change in the strategic goals held by the people controlling the superpower. And the US is at a high level of strength, not weakness. Its large corporations hold sway over the globe in a manner the likes of which has never been seen before in modern history. Its military has force projection to nearly every point on the globe, with hundreds of global military bases. Its national wealth is at an all-time high. Its stock markets are at all-time highs. Its median income is at an all-time high. Its median disposable income is at an all-time high. Its housing wealth is at an all-time high.

triceratops 9mo ago
> Its median income is at an all-time high. Its median dispoable income is at an all-time high. Its housing wealth is at an all-time high. Then why is everyone so damned unhappy all the time?
- xienze 9mo ago
  The US used to be a much more homogeneous country, which certainly makes it a lot easier for everyone to be on the same page because of shared cultural values. That has changed dramatically in the past few decades and with it, places where Americans can find common ground. Other western countries are going down the exact same path, just a bit behind us.
  - triceratops 9mo ago
    I love how racism gets snuck into everything these days. No, homogeneity doesn't cause happiness.[1] And the US was always less homogenous than other "western" countries. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Japan#Suicide_problem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_in_Japan#Suicide_proble...
    - xienze 9mo ago
      > No, homogeneity doesn't cause happiness. Funny though how all those European countries everyone on HN and Reddit point to as "how things should be" are all pretty ethnically and culturally homogenous, though that's changing rapidly. Interestingly, cracks are starting to appear. > And the US was always less homogenous than other "western" countries. The US was 85-90% white in 1965. That's pretty homogenous.
      - epistasis 9mo ago
        What is considered "white" now certainly wasn't in the past. It took a long time before Italians were considered to be part of the in-group. Irish and Italian people were considered an inferior race and suffered extreme racial prejudice when lots of immigrants came from those nations. And that evolution itself tells the story of the US itself. The people in non-homogenous neighborhoods are happy and harmonious, but outsiders scared of cultural differences cause racial strife and discontent. Those who let themselves get worked up about racism are the problem, not the non-homogenous races.
        triceratops 9mo ago
- epistasis 9mo ago
  The combination of median disposable income and housing wealth being at all time highs is a big part of it! Those with housing have locked others out of housing, causing lots of "wealth" that those with housing don't even consider to be wealth. They think it's just "normal" and don't realize the massive advantage it gives them over everybody stuck renting. But that's symptomatic of all the other inequality. Housing is the biggest expense, and most obvious form of rent extraction that the wealthy use to exploit those without wealth, but it's not the only one.
blibble 9mo ago
> The US is more stable than the powers of Europe (which have constant political upheavals, snap elections that completely remake the political landscape, etc). You're confusing Trump's mouth with how the US political system actually functions. this is satire right? the UK's system is close to 1000 years old I doubt the current US system will last another decade > with hundreds of global military bases all of which will evaporate the moment it does anything to Greenland
- adventured 9mo ago
  The UK's current system is realistically about the same age as the US, their first PM was in the 18th century. Unless you're claiming the King/Queen is still in control of everything. You can't have that premise both ways.
  - blibble 9mo ago
    > The UK's current system is realistically about the same age as the US no, it's evolved continuously from 1066 by the time of the US rebellion, the king was already neutered > their first PM was in the 18th century. the title of "Prime Minister" is a modern invention (and not a formal position) there has been a Lord High Treasurer since the 1100s a constitutionally limited monarchy is older than the US meanwhile the modern US seems to be a absolute monarchy that isn't constitutionally limited
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
GJim 9mo ago
> The US is more stable than the powers of Europe ....... You're confusing Trump's mouth with how the US political system actually functions. Eh? If the US political system was stable and fit for purpose, the US would have got rid of the wannabe dictator by now; or at least held his power in check. EDIT: Amusingly, I'm being downvoted by a class of American who refuses to believe their way might not be the best after all. Even when the facts are staring them in the face.
- epistasis 9mo ago
  As a US citizen, I agree with you that if the US was a stable power we would have gotten rid of the dictator for good after the first term. And most definitely after trying to usurp an entire election. Or worst case after he issued pardons to all people involved in any way to usurp the election, including many hardened criminals. After all these things, even if we get control of the US government and place it into stable, hands, it will take a generation to rebuild the broken trust. But I don't think that the people downvoting you are necessarily other US citizens. It feels like HN is very good at eliminating bots, but in these sorts of discussions lots of sleeper agent bots come out to try to shift discussion. Every bit of our social media is full of it and I think that the downvotes your comment probably come from that.
  - GJim 9mo ago
    > I don't think that the people downvoting you are necessarily other US citizens. ....... sleeper agent bots come out to try to shift discussion Interesting point. I (very likely) stand corrected.
7speter 9mo ago
> And the US is at a high level of strength, not weakness. Its large corporations hold sway over the globe in a manner the likes of which has never been seen before in modern history. Its military has force projection to nearly every point on the globe, with hundreds of global military bases. Its national wealth is at an all-time high. Its stock markets are at all-time highs. Its median income is at an all-time high. Its median dispoable income is at an all-time high. Its housing wealth is at an all-time high This is in part because other countries allow American countries to come in and take over markets.
jimnotgym 9mo ago
In a war type scenario between US and Europe, what do you think will happen to those large corporations 'sway'? Their assets will be confiscated, their systems cut off or repurposed. It will immediately end any sway those corporations had
- floatrock 9mo ago
  and to op's point about > Its military has force projection to nearly every point on the globe, with hundreds of global military bases How are the hosts to all those bases going to react when suddenly the guest acts belligerent? When the ally drops down to an occupier, that force projection suddenly starts looking like occupation, which becomes a lot more expensive to maintain. And the expense has worked until now because everyone else has wanted our currency so what's a bit more currency printing, but when we kick our own global reserve currency status because we fucked all of our allies, well now that "force projections becomes a lot more expensive" actually becomes expensive^squared. This is absolutely idiotic for anyone who indulges in the privileges of empire.
justin66 9mo ago
> The US is more stable than the powers of Europe (which have constant political upheavals, snap elections that completely remake the political landscape, etc) How many European powers have had their incumbent head of state violently attempt to hold onto power after losing an election after January 6th, 2021?
- epistasis 9mo ago
  A stable country would do what South Korea or Brazil did: imprison the criminal. Instead, in the US, we have our supposed captains of industry wielding chain saws on stage to publicly support the wannabe tyrant, and donating billions behind the scenes to privately support the wannabe tyrant.
epistasis 9mo ago
> You're confusing Trump's mouth with how the US political system actually functions. I'm not confusing anything, right now Trump's mouth IS the political system in the US. Republicans control every aspect of the government completely, all the way through to the checks of the US Supreme Court. No Republican has enough backbone to stand up to Trump, and if they do gain a backbone to stand up to Trump at all, like MTG, they exit politics quickly. Thomas Massie is the closest to somebody who is standing up to Trump. If Republicans in the Senate were willing to stay in office yet defect from the party, that would be enough to stand up to Trump, but even that's not happening. Right now, the US is in a position not unlike Imperial Japan, right before they launched an attack on the US, forcing the US into WW2. High Command wants somebody to stand up and stop the obviously bad action, but nobody is willing to make the short-term sacrifice for the long-term good.
isodev 9mo ago
> The US is more stable than the powers of Europe (which have constant political upheavals, snap elections that completely remake the political landscape, etc) Can you name 26 countries with the same level of unity and cooperation with the US as what exists between the 27 members of the EU (and larger economic zone)? The US is but one country. If you zoom into states, you’d see a lot more bickering and division - y’all just sent your military against your own people just now…
senderista 9mo ago
Sorry, Trump insisting on annexing Greenland is not a "change in strategic goals", it's a toddler's petulant obsession. The US already had carte blanche from Denmark to do pretty much whatever it wanted in Greenland. Besides Trump, I doubt there's another official in the WH who wants this. They are all just humoring the demented old man.

mym1990 9mo ago

Its baffling that you think the collapse of the USD would have no negative ramifications on the rest of the world...

PartiallyTyped 9mo ago
It will suck, and then it will get better.
- mym1990 9mo ago
  Yes but you have a) no idea how bad the suck will be b) no idea how long the suck will last and c) what the "better" will look like. I am not advocating that the status quo should go on, I am just saying that the repercussions will be vast and long lasting, likely resulting in a world war, and whatever follows after that(if anything).
7speter 9mo ago
The negative ramifications seem to be better than being invaded by the US or having regional entities invaded by the US, and the ensuing instability as a result. If its going to be like this the rest of the world might as well cut its losses
- mym1990 9mo ago
  You seem to have a very limited view of the world if you think the US doesn't have fans of totalitarian rule and that the "rest of the world" is exclusively against US global strategy. I am going to guess that you actually have no idea what the negative ramifications of the collapse of a currency that underpins the foundations of our world are, because it is something that is near impossible to predict. I agree that at some point, governments and people will need to step up and fight back, but the idea that the US will somehow fall in a vacuum and everyone else will live happily ever after is laughable.
  - staplers 9mo ago
    the US will somehow fall in a vacuum and everyone else will live happily ever after is laughable. If enough countries collectively decide to not export to the US, it's game over. See Cuba as an example. Not everything is a movie with a final battle. Alternatives are found and adopted all the time without violent strife.

corimaith 9mo ago

You do realise it is arthimetically impossible to balance all the desired export surpluses of the EU, China, Japan, etc together without the US as the demand sink right? Whatever adjustment comes is certainly going to require somebody to act in a manner contrary to their current strategies, and it's going to be a painful adjustment. And which is harder? Bringing back production to satiate domestic demand or increasing domestic demand? Historically, demand deficiency is much harder to restore.

monero-xmr 9mo ago
Single most accurate and astute comment on the entire page. Not everyone can be a net exporter, of course…
- epistasis 9mo ago
  Think one step further. When a different currency becomes the reserve currency, the currency rises in value, the holders become far wealthier, get their imports for cheaper, and suddenly they can even subsidize their local industries that rely on exports to the point that it's a smooth transition to more of a consumer economy.
  - monero-xmr 9mo ago
    [flagged]
    - epistasis 9mo ago
      > no armies, can’t defend itself, can’t make energy. Look I love dumping on the Europoors as much as anyone, but even I can see that this is a bit extreme. "Decadence?" What does that even mean here? That people are happy and secure and have good qualities of life, without worrying about everything falling apart? The US is not fine, and is falling apart. The US is living decadently on its reserve currency status, which enable things like ridiculously wasteful and unproductive military spending. Even its military spending on things like the, say, F35, require external customers in order for it to make any sense at all. But all that decadence is at risk. Decadence is good, I want it, I don't want austerity. Give me this awesome US decadence or I'll have to settle for the fake European "decadence" which is mere economic and health security without all the extra spending that US consumers get to make.