4 ms·

Stock market integrity is important because of their function in the economy. Scamming of gambling addicts is tragic but not detrimental to society.

bradhe 9mo ago
Except when "gambling adicts" end up as a cover for money laundering and funneling cash to people to buy influence.
- butlike 9mo ago
  People do that with drugs too. I'm not pro gambling, but what's your point?
kleene_op 9mo ago
Depends on how many of those gambling addicts there are. If a huge enough portion of the population try to solve the statue quo of their economic problems by betting all on red, that's not gonna be great for society, including those who don't gamble.
rl3 9mo ago
>Scamming of gambling addicts is tragic but not detrimental to society. It certainly is at scale.
anonymous908213 9mo ago
That is one of the takes I've ever read. There is a reason gambling is so tightly regulated worldwide, and it's certainly not because governments hate easy vice tax revenue. Gambling debt destroys family units, increases poverty rates (most notably for the children of gambling addicts -- the consequences are not localised only to the person making the bad decisions), and increases violent crime rates. Gambling is massively detrimental to society. There can be arguments in allowing people to do things that are detrimental to society in the name of freedom, but it's not a great thing to pretend those detriments don't exist at all.
- _heimdall 9mo ago
  Do you know of any studies that can accurately show the correlation between gambling and societal costs? On the surface the link makes sense to me and seems like it should be right, though I'm not sure how we could have tested it in a controlled way to really know the link exists.
  - snapcaster 9mo ago
    This is such a weird question, just go outside and interact with humans and the evidence is everywhere
    - deleted 9mo ago
      [deleted]
    - _heimdall 9mo ago
      That's anecdotal, I was curious if there were (well designed) studies that showed likely correlation between the two. I have had family members addicted to drugs and/or alcohol and friends that have been addicted to gambling at various times. I've seen similar reactions anecdotally, but that isn't societal or scientific.
  - BoxFour 9mo ago
    There are a bunch of studies out there [0][1] (two I found immediately) showing the risks around problem gambling, but like with most vices people who’ve already picked the pro side tend to react in the same predictable ways (myself included): 1) Dismissal: Feigning or having a profound misunderstanding of how statistics work by poking at the methodology like “N=200? That’s meaningless.” 2) Apathy: “So what if some people get addicted? We can’t babysit everyone.” 3) Rationalization: “Yeah but it helps Native American reservations, so...” 4) Downplaying: "Ok problem gambling is bad, but how prevalent is problem gambling really?" 0: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1989-05439-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1989-05439-001 1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32402593/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32402593/
    - 9mo ago
bsder 9mo ago
> Scamming of gambling addicts is tragic but not detrimental to society. I used to believe that. With the legalization of all the sports betting and how fast it can drain a gambler which can then affect the gambler's family, I'm now pretty much on the other side of the fence. Just like we banned public smoking because of the effects of secondhand smoke, I'm pretty convinced that the secondary effects of gambling means it needs to go back to being banned. I don't see an obvious way to legislate gambling to prevent the auxiliary victims. It doesn't help that getting maximum profit as a bookie means being part of a group of the scummiest people on the planet who will stoop to anything to drain people of their money as fast as possible.
- throwaway173738 9mo ago
  The sports betting sites even have account managers who are tasked with keeping people on the sites even after the user has decided to quit. It’s so lucrative they can afford to pay people to sit and text gambling addicts.
  - capncleaver 9mo ago
    This is common practice in gambling and now games, too: Zynga has 'VIP' teams for high-spending free to play game customers, they would talk on the phone at length, get to know them, fly them to Vegas for jaunts, etc. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/how-does-zynga-hunt-for-whales-this-week-in-business https://www.gamesindustry.biz/how-does-zynga-hunt-for-whales... > "We've done so much experimenting at Zynga with VIP. We know what's the frequency of contact. We know what call types work. We know what times to call. We know exactly who to call and when. We know who has a higher propensity to be more susceptible to our call."
    - autoexec 9mo ago
      Video games are massively under-regulated to the point where we've basically got online casinos specifically targeting children. It's so gross.
- neutronicus 9mo ago
deleted 9mo ago
[deleted]
dns_snek 9mo ago
Just so we're clear on the standards of solidarity here, someone murdering your entire family would be tragic but not detrimental to society. How much should society do to prevent that from happening?
ace32229 9mo ago
You are ignoring the point of TFA. Kalshi & Polymarkets provide a marketplace to monetise political decision-making, a.k.a corruption. This is definitely detrimental to society.
victorbjorklund 9mo ago
Until people are making money and affecting the world. Let's say that you're someone close to Trump and you have betted a very large sum that Trump should take a certain action. Are you going to try to make him take that action even if at that point it turns out to be the worst decision for the country and the world?
nkrisc 9mo ago
The gambling industry itself is a net drain on society. What is the societal benefit provided by it?
- jstanley 9mo ago
  Some people want to gamble and the gambling industry provides what they want. How would you like it if people who didn't care about your hobby started questioning the social benefit of allowing you to do it?
  - nkrisc 9mo ago
    > How would you like it if people who didn't care about your hobby started questioning the social benefit of allowing you to do it? In this hypothetical scenario, is my hobby actively harmful to society? Some people would enjoy killing people but we don’t let them do that.
    - jstanley 9mo ago
      Gambling isn't harmful to society. A gambling bet is a private bet between two people. If some people who like gambling are harmful to society in other areas of their life, that's on them.
      - vel0city 9mo ago
        Gambling can absolutely destroy lives. I've seen it in my own family. Its highly addictive nature combined with an easy way to lose everything you own is incredibly dangerous. I've personally witnessed domestic violence from a gambler taking heavy losses as they realize they're about to be in a really bad place financially. I've never seen someone get violent over messing up a few rows of knitting.
        jstanley 9mo ago
        So your beef is with domestic violence, not with gambling. In a counterfactual where someone was doing some gambling and not doing some domestic violence, would you be still upset about the gambling in and of itself? Who does it harm?
nl 9mo ago
> Scamming of gambling addicts is tragic but not detrimental to society. This isn't true. each 10 per cent increase in gambling expenditure in NSW results in more than 4,500 additional assaults 2,800 additional home break-ins 1,300 additional break and enter (non-dwelling) offences 1,400 additional motor vehicle thefts 2,300 additional stealing from motor vehicle thefts 3,800 additional fraud offences each year https://www.connections.edu.au/news/strong-link-between-gambling-expenditure-and-crime-new-study-finds https://www.connections.edu.au/news/strong-link-between-gamb... > Stock market integrity is important because of their function in the economy Some might argue that people - including gambling addicts, and those impacted by their addiction - might possibly be more important than one of many possible financial mechanisms for free enterprise.
- moring 9mo ago
  Is that NSW = New South Wales? I'm asking because Wikipedia lists New South Wales as a population of only 8.5 million, and those crime numbers are insanely huge relative to that.
  - rpsw 9mo ago
    The original paper would be: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.16648 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.16648 The part the article OP linked to would be based off the line: To put these percentage changes in terms of interest to policy makers, a 10% decrease in gambling expenditure in NSW would result in 4579 fewer ASS offences; 2867 fewer BESD offences; 1380 fewer BESND offences; 1398 fewer MVT offences; 2361 fewer SFMV offences; and 3793 fewer FRD offences 2 each year
  - trollbridge 9mo ago
    It is, and some policy proposals have put it forward as the single largest factor of increasing crime.
  - cjs_ac 9mo ago
    More than half of all physical slot machines in the world are in Australia.
jedimastert 9mo ago
First of all, anyone getting scammed is detrimental to society because society is made out of people and those are people getting scammed. Gambling addicts are not less important than wealthy people. Second, these markets are generating new gambling addicts, which is wildly and provably detrimental to society.
sarky-litso 9mo ago
Have you watched sports recently? Gambling has always had a negative effect on the perceived fairness but once that effect becomes a core part of the way the sport is monetized it gets even worse for everyone involved. Watching playoff games last weekend either Draft Kings or Fan Duel showed an ad where a single person in a crowded bar is cheering wildly by themselves while looking at their parlay bet or whatever on their phone - this isolation of the communal experience alone is a definitely a negative effect but I could go on...
modriano 9mo ago
Gambling is frying the brains of a disturbing proportion of genZ and millennial men. It's destroying sports and infecting politics. It's quite detrimental to society.

bradhe 9mo ago

Except when "gambling adicts" end up as a cover for money laundering and funneling cash to people to buy influence.

butlike 9mo ago
People do that with drugs too. I'm not pro gambling, but what's your point?

kleene_op 9mo ago

Depends on how many of those gambling addicts there are. If a huge enough portion of the population try to solve the statue quo of their economic problems by betting all on red, that's not gonna be great for society, including those who don't gamble.

rl3 9mo ago

>Scamming of gambling addicts is tragic but not detrimental to society. It certainly is at scale.

anonymous908213 9mo ago

That is one of the takes I've ever read. There is a reason gambling is so tightly regulated worldwide, and it's certainly not because governments hate easy vice tax revenue. Gambling debt destroys family units, increases poverty rates (most notably for the children of gambling addicts -- the consequences are not localised only to the person making the bad decisions), and increases violent crime rates. Gambling is massively detrimental to society. There can be arguments in allowing people to do things that are detrimental to society in the name of freedom, but it's not a great thing to pretend those detriments don't exist at all.

_heimdall 9mo ago
Do you know of any studies that can accurately show the correlation between gambling and societal costs? On the surface the link makes sense to me and seems like it should be right, though I'm not sure how we could have tested it in a controlled way to really know the link exists.
- snapcaster 9mo ago
  This is such a weird question, just go outside and interact with humans and the evidence is everywhere
  - deleted 9mo ago
    [deleted]
  - _heimdall 9mo ago
    That's anecdotal, I was curious if there were (well designed) studies that showed likely correlation between the two. I have had family members addicted to drugs and/or alcohol and friends that have been addicted to gambling at various times. I've seen similar reactions anecdotally, but that isn't societal or scientific.
- BoxFour 9mo ago
  There are a bunch of studies out there [0][1] (two I found immediately) showing the risks around problem gambling, but like with most vices people who’ve already picked the pro side tend to react in the same predictable ways (myself included): 1) Dismissal: Feigning or having a profound misunderstanding of how statistics work by poking at the methodology like “N=200? That’s meaningless.” 2) Apathy: “So what if some people get addicted? We can’t babysit everyone.” 3) Rationalization: “Yeah but it helps Native American reservations, so...” 4) Downplaying: "Ok problem gambling is bad, but how prevalent is problem gambling really?" 0: https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1989-05439-001 https://psycnet.apa.org/record/1989-05439-001 1: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32402593/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32402593/
  - 9mo ago

bsder 9mo ago

> Scamming of gambling addicts is tragic but not detrimental to society. I used to believe that. With the legalization of all the sports betting and how fast it can drain a gambler which can then affect the gambler's family, I'm now pretty much on the other side of the fence. Just like we banned public smoking because of the effects of secondhand smoke, I'm pretty convinced that the secondary effects of gambling means it needs to go back to being banned. I don't see an obvious way to legislate gambling to prevent the auxiliary victims. It doesn't help that getting maximum profit as a bookie means being part of a group of the scummiest people on the planet who will stoop to anything to drain people of their money as fast as possible.

throwaway173738 9mo ago
The sports betting sites even have account managers who are tasked with keeping people on the sites even after the user has decided to quit. It’s so lucrative they can afford to pay people to sit and text gambling addicts.
- capncleaver 9mo ago
  This is common practice in gambling and now games, too: Zynga has 'VIP' teams for high-spending free to play game customers, they would talk on the phone at length, get to know them, fly them to Vegas for jaunts, etc. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/how-does-zynga-hunt-for-whales-this-week-in-business https://www.gamesindustry.biz/how-does-zynga-hunt-for-whales... > "We've done so much experimenting at Zynga with VIP. We know what's the frequency of contact. We know what call types work. We know what times to call. We know exactly who to call and when. We know who has a higher propensity to be more susceptible to our call."
  - autoexec 9mo ago
    Video games are massively under-regulated to the point where we've basically got online casinos specifically targeting children. It's so gross.
neutronicus 9mo ago

deleted 9mo ago

[deleted]

dns_snek 9mo ago

Just so we're clear on the standards of solidarity here, someone murdering your entire family would be tragic but not detrimental to society. How much should society do to prevent that from happening?

ace32229 9mo ago

You are ignoring the point of TFA. Kalshi & Polymarkets provide a marketplace to monetise political decision-making, a.k.a corruption. This is definitely detrimental to society.

victorbjorklund 9mo ago

Until people are making money and affecting the world. Let's say that you're someone close to Trump and you have betted a very large sum that Trump should take a certain action. Are you going to try to make him take that action even if at that point it turns out to be the worst decision for the country and the world?

nkrisc 9mo ago

The gambling industry itself is a net drain on society. What is the societal benefit provided by it?

jstanley 9mo ago
Some people want to gamble and the gambling industry provides what they want. How would you like it if people who didn't care about your hobby started questioning the social benefit of allowing you to do it?
- nkrisc 9mo ago
  > How would you like it if people who didn't care about your hobby started questioning the social benefit of allowing you to do it? In this hypothetical scenario, is my hobby actively harmful to society? Some people would enjoy killing people but we don’t let them do that.
  - jstanley 9mo ago
    Gambling isn't harmful to society. A gambling bet is a private bet between two people. If some people who like gambling are harmful to society in other areas of their life, that's on them.
    - vel0city 9mo ago
      Gambling can absolutely destroy lives. I've seen it in my own family. Its highly addictive nature combined with an easy way to lose everything you own is incredibly dangerous. I've personally witnessed domestic violence from a gambler taking heavy losses as they realize they're about to be in a really bad place financially. I've never seen someone get violent over messing up a few rows of knitting.
      - jstanley 9mo ago
        So your beef is with domestic violence, not with gambling. In a counterfactual where someone was doing some gambling and not doing some domestic violence, would you be still upset about the gambling in and of itself? Who does it harm?

nl 9mo ago

> Scamming of gambling addicts is tragic but not detrimental to society. This isn't true. each 10 per cent increase in gambling expenditure in NSW results in more than 4,500 additional assaults 2,800 additional home break-ins 1,300 additional break and enter (non-dwelling) offences 1,400 additional motor vehicle thefts 2,300 additional stealing from motor vehicle thefts 3,800 additional fraud offences each year https://www.connections.edu.au/news/strong-link-between-gambling-expenditure-and-crime-new-study-finds https://www.connections.edu.au/news/strong-link-between-gamb... > Stock market integrity is important because of their function in the economy Some might argue that people - including gambling addicts, and those impacted by their addiction - might possibly be more important than one of many possible financial mechanisms for free enterprise.

moring 9mo ago
Is that NSW = New South Wales? I'm asking because Wikipedia lists New South Wales as a population of only 8.5 million, and those crime numbers are insanely huge relative to that.
- rpsw 9mo ago
  The original paper would be: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.16648 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/add.16648 The part the article OP linked to would be based off the line: To put these percentage changes in terms of interest to policy makers, a 10% decrease in gambling expenditure in NSW would result in 4579 fewer ASS offences; 2867 fewer BESD offences; 1380 fewer BESND offences; 1398 fewer MVT offences; 2361 fewer SFMV offences; and 3793 fewer FRD offences 2 each year
- trollbridge 9mo ago
  It is, and some policy proposals have put it forward as the single largest factor of increasing crime.
- cjs_ac 9mo ago
  More than half of all physical slot machines in the world are in Australia.

jedimastert 9mo ago

First of all, anyone getting scammed is detrimental to society because society is made out of people and those are people getting scammed. Gambling addicts are not less important than wealthy people. Second, these markets are generating new gambling addicts, which is wildly and provably detrimental to society.

sarky-litso 9mo ago

Have you watched sports recently? Gambling has always had a negative effect on the perceived fairness but once that effect becomes a core part of the way the sport is monetized it gets even worse for everyone involved. Watching playoff games last weekend either Draft Kings or Fan Duel showed an ad where a single person in a crowded bar is cheering wildly by themselves while looking at their parlay bet or whatever on their phone - this isolation of the communal experience alone is a definitely a negative effect but I could go on...

modriano 9mo ago

Gambling is frying the brains of a disturbing proportion of genZ and millennial men. It's destroying sports and infecting politics. It's quite detrimental to society.