6 ms·

Feels bad faith to shit on people from your ivory tower, just because they can't afford to ditch their reliable beaters and buy a new car. Have you seen wage gr

Feels bad faith to shit on people from your ivory tower, just because they can't afford to ditch their reliable beaters and buy a new car. Have you seen wage growth vs car price increases lately? Not everyone is on a remote six figure US tech job. Try to view and judge things from outside your bubble as well. I'd also dump my ol reliable ICE car that's now probably worth less than a fancy electric bicycle, if someone just gave me an EV for free ;) But since I'm poor and can't afford EV prices with decent range, nor can I afford a home with a parking place with charger, then ICE it is. European here btw, not american.

nikanj 10mo ago
Look at the average car payment in the US, and the average car sale price The ”americans can’t afford EVs” argument falls totally apart when the average(!) sale price is over $50k and you can get a perfectly good Leaf for $25k
- joe_mamba 10mo ago
  Good point but that can be explained by familiarity inertia. People who have 50k to blow on a new car are anything but young buyers, with the average age of a new car buyer in the US is around 53 years old. And boomers and gen-X are used to owning ICEs, so there you go. Millennials and Zoomers would be more open to EV adoption but they have a lot less disposable income to buy new cars.
  - david-gpu 10mo ago
    Meanwhile, bicycles and e-bikes cost a fraction of a car.
    - joe_mamba 10mo ago
      Yes, and? They're different tools for different purposes. Such a disingenuous comment.
      - lostlogin 10mo ago
        > They're different tools for different purposes. Getting to work and running local errands?
        nikanj 10mo ago
        Yes one is for getting to work and running local errands, the other is for showing that you are a successful alpha hustler who can afford a big truck.
        joe_mamba 10mo ago
        What a childish troll comment. Not everyone's work commute can be done by bicycle. I can't cycle 40+ km each way on the highway. And not everyone who buys a car to get to work buys a pickup truck. Sensible cars exist. Ignoramus.
        joe_mamba 10mo ago
        ANother disingenuous comment. One for commuting long distances versus one for commuting short distance. ignoramus
      - david-gpu 10mo ago
        Disingenuous? Plenty of people live without a car.
        blell 10mo ago
        [flagged]
        NetMageSCW 10mo ago
        By choice? Life is short enough, I don’t need to waste it providing power to travel to work and back when I can save 1.5 hours per work day driving. (And more if I go to lunch.)
        david-gpu 10mo ago
    - cpursley 10mo ago
      Not sure if you are familiar with the built-environment in America, but there’s effectively no biking infrastructure and people are openly hostile towards cyclists who try.
      - david-gpu 10mo ago
        Barely any bike infrastructure where I live, either. You can make it work. Give it a try someday.
        cpursley 10mo ago
        I'd love to but would rather not be road splatter, which is a frequent outcome: https://news.google.com/search?q=cyclist+run+over&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en https://news.google.com/search?q=cyclist+run+over&hl=en-US&g...
        lostlogin 10mo ago
        If you ever get the chance to try a bike radar like the garmin Varia, knowing what’s behind you is a game changer. I feel naked on the rare occasion I don’t have it.
        nikanj 10mo ago
        Do you use the same logic to avoid driving a car to work: https://news.google.com/search?q=driver+dies+in+crash&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en https://news.google.com/search?q=driver+dies+in+crash&hl=en-...
        joe_mamba 10mo ago
        How do you suggest you get to work by bike when work is 50 km away?
        david-gpu 10mo ago
        Moving closer. It is a shitty commute by any means of transport. It is no wonder that you are jumping at everybody offering suggestions.
    - cucumber3732842 10mo ago
      >e-bikes cost a fraction of a car. Don't worry, there are people scheming up ways to change that. And it's (mostly) not even the auto lobby.
  - IshKebab 10mo ago
    I don't think being used to buying ICE cars is an excuse. Or probably even true. More likely they stay popular because America has extremely cheap petrol/gas and poor electric car charging infrastructure.
- chung8123 10mo ago
  You need to compare apples to apples in that 50k sale price. People are not buying Versas that are 50k
imtringued 10mo ago
I don't know what you mean by reliable beaters. By the time EVs are mandatory, my ICE car will have turned into dust and I'd have to buy a new car anyway. It would be pretty foolish to stall EVs only to then be forced to buy another ICE car.
ekr 10mo ago
Same here. Living in the Netherlands, I drive a 2008 Daihatsu Cuore, bought for 850E over a year ago, I pay 17E /month in mrb (road tax) and 38E/month insurance. It's basically close to the costs of a scooter. And I average under 4L/100km fuel usage, for my 200km/week commute. I did some calculation and no car comes close to these running costs. Definitely no electric cars, even if I were to get them for free, because road tax here is mainly a factor of weight. Even a Dacia Spring with its 900kg is slightly more expensive overall to run (in my circumstances. I could charge at home, but don't have solar panels atm), and a lot more expensive up front to buy (used). It has over 304k km already, and it runs perfectly well with some occasional maintenance and some mechanical sympathy, but I was considering alternatives in case something were to happen. Conclusion? Just buy another one. Suzuki Celerio is the only one in the same ballpark, but it's about 2k EUR more expensive. And I love my Daihatsu.
- lostlogin 10mo ago
  It wouldn’t change your equation much, but you don’t need a car charger as such, just connect to a normal power socket (which may not be available within reach). We ran a Leaf for years like that, and it would charge overnight just fine. We do have a charger now and it’s quicker, but it’s a luxury we didn’t need.
- cucumber3732842 10mo ago
  >. Living in the Netherlands, I drive a 2008 Daihatsu Cuore, bought for 850E over a year ago, I pay 17E /month in mrb (road tax) and 38E/month insurance. Imagine how many people are reading this and thinking to themselves "government has to do something to drive up those numbers so it's no longer financially sensible for you to drive that car"
  - ekr 10mo ago
    Well, fuel here is close to if not the most expensive in EU. That also contains a lot of tax. But I just don't drive that much. And the insurance is cheap because of years of no incidents, and the fact that I'm over 30. But indeed, I wouldn't disagree if the government made electric cars cheaper from a tax perspective. They just reduced the tax discount to 25%, and it will be gone completely in a few years. If they raise taxes significantly for me, I'll just sell the car and find a closer job. 20km one way to Amsterdam with an ebike, that's 2 hours per day. I don't have that much time to give away at this point in life.
CalRobert 10mo ago
Sorry but where did I do that? I oppose tariffs on Chinese cars, which means I support making cars cheaper…
Loudergood 10mo ago
Like me, you're not buying new cars on that budget anyway. 6 years ago when my ICE car became unreliable I bought a used Chevy Bolt for less than $20k. They're closer to $10k now. Plenty of range. People aren't being asked to dump their current reliable vehicles. What we want is for people to think about EVs when it's time to replace them.
- vladvasiliu 10mo ago
  > People aren't being asked to dump their current reliable vehicles Depends on where the people live. In France, that's just about what they're asked. If their car is "too old" (reliability doesn't matter, only age), they may no longer drive in Paris and some other major cities on weekdays from 6 AM to 8 PM or something like that. https://www.france.fr/en/article/crit-air-anti-pollution-vehicle-sticker/ https://www.france.fr/en/article/crit-air-anti-pollution-veh...
  - joe_mamba 10mo ago
    I have an ICE car and I agree with restrictions like that. You don't need to be Jeff Bezos to own a car that's at least Euro 5 and doesn't heavily pollute the air. If you own some 20+ year old beater that smokes like a chimney, get fined, we don't have to tolerate your health hazard mobile.
    - vladvasiliu 10mo ago
      Sure, I also don't care for smelling cars' exhausts, and am delighted with the move away from diesels to electrics. But the point I was responding to was "people aren't being forced to dump their old, reliable cars". Which they absolutely are. Whether that's a good or a bad thing is a different matter. I think it's good for health, but I also understand it can be difficult for people who struggle to make ends meet.

nikanj 10mo ago

Look at the average car payment in the US, and the average car sale price The ”americans can’t afford EVs” argument falls totally apart when the average(!) sale price is over $50k and you can get a perfectly good Leaf for $25k

joe_mamba 10mo ago
Good point but that can be explained by familiarity inertia. People who have 50k to blow on a new car are anything but young buyers, with the average age of a new car buyer in the US is around 53 years old. And boomers and gen-X are used to owning ICEs, so there you go. Millennials and Zoomers would be more open to EV adoption but they have a lot less disposable income to buy new cars.
- david-gpu 10mo ago
  Meanwhile, bicycles and e-bikes cost a fraction of a car.
  - joe_mamba 10mo ago
    Yes, and? They're different tools for different purposes. Such a disingenuous comment.
    - lostlogin 10mo ago
      > They're different tools for different purposes. Getting to work and running local errands?
      - nikanj 10mo ago
        Yes one is for getting to work and running local errands, the other is for showing that you are a successful alpha hustler who can afford a big truck.
        joe_mamba 10mo ago
        What a childish troll comment. Not everyone's work commute can be done by bicycle. I can't cycle 40+ km each way on the highway. And not everyone who buys a car to get to work buys a pickup truck. Sensible cars exist. Ignoramus.
      - joe_mamba 10mo ago
        ANother disingenuous comment. One for commuting long distances versus one for commuting short distance. ignoramus
    - david-gpu 10mo ago
      Disingenuous? Plenty of people live without a car.
      - blell 10mo ago
        [flagged]
      - NetMageSCW 10mo ago
        By choice? Life is short enough, I don’t need to waste it providing power to travel to work and back when I can save 1.5 hours per work day driving. (And more if I go to lunch.)
        david-gpu 10mo ago
  - cpursley 10mo ago
    Not sure if you are familiar with the built-environment in America, but there’s effectively no biking infrastructure and people are openly hostile towards cyclists who try.
    - david-gpu 10mo ago
      Barely any bike infrastructure where I live, either. You can make it work. Give it a try someday.
      - cpursley 10mo ago
        I'd love to but would rather not be road splatter, which is a frequent outcome: https://news.google.com/search?q=cyclist+run+over&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en https://news.google.com/search?q=cyclist+run+over&hl=en-US&g...
        lostlogin 10mo ago
        If you ever get the chance to try a bike radar like the garmin Varia, knowing what’s behind you is a game changer. I feel naked on the rare occasion I don’t have it.
        nikanj 10mo ago
        Do you use the same logic to avoid driving a car to work: https://news.google.com/search?q=driver+dies+in+crash&hl=en-US&gl=US&ceid=US:en https://news.google.com/search?q=driver+dies+in+crash&hl=en-...
      - joe_mamba 10mo ago
        How do you suggest you get to work by bike when work is 50 km away?
        david-gpu 10mo ago
        Moving closer. It is a shitty commute by any means of transport. It is no wonder that you are jumping at everybody offering suggestions.
  - cucumber3732842 10mo ago
    >e-bikes cost a fraction of a car. Don't worry, there are people scheming up ways to change that. And it's (mostly) not even the auto lobby.
- IshKebab 10mo ago
  I don't think being used to buying ICE cars is an excuse. Or probably even true. More likely they stay popular because America has extremely cheap petrol/gas and poor electric car charging infrastructure.
chung8123 10mo ago
You need to compare apples to apples in that 50k sale price. People are not buying Versas that are 50k

imtringued 10mo ago

I don't know what you mean by reliable beaters. By the time EVs are mandatory, my ICE car will have turned into dust and I'd have to buy a new car anyway. It would be pretty foolish to stall EVs only to then be forced to buy another ICE car.

ekr 10mo ago

Same here. Living in the Netherlands, I drive a 2008 Daihatsu Cuore, bought for 850E over a year ago, I pay 17E /month in mrb (road tax) and 38E/month insurance. It's basically close to the costs of a scooter. And I average under 4L/100km fuel usage, for my 200km/week commute. I did some calculation and no car comes close to these running costs. Definitely no electric cars, even if I were to get them for free, because road tax here is mainly a factor of weight. Even a Dacia Spring with its 900kg is slightly more expensive overall to run (in my circumstances. I could charge at home, but don't have solar panels atm), and a lot more expensive up front to buy (used). It has over 304k km already, and it runs perfectly well with some occasional maintenance and some mechanical sympathy, but I was considering alternatives in case something were to happen. Conclusion? Just buy another one. Suzuki Celerio is the only one in the same ballpark, but it's about 2k EUR more expensive. And I love my Daihatsu.

lostlogin 10mo ago
It wouldn’t change your equation much, but you don’t need a car charger as such, just connect to a normal power socket (which may not be available within reach). We ran a Leaf for years like that, and it would charge overnight just fine. We do have a charger now and it’s quicker, but it’s a luxury we didn’t need.
cucumber3732842 10mo ago
>. Living in the Netherlands, I drive a 2008 Daihatsu Cuore, bought for 850E over a year ago, I pay 17E /month in mrb (road tax) and 38E/month insurance. Imagine how many people are reading this and thinking to themselves "government has to do something to drive up those numbers so it's no longer financially sensible for you to drive that car"
- ekr 10mo ago
  Well, fuel here is close to if not the most expensive in EU. That also contains a lot of tax. But I just don't drive that much. And the insurance is cheap because of years of no incidents, and the fact that I'm over 30. But indeed, I wouldn't disagree if the government made electric cars cheaper from a tax perspective. They just reduced the tax discount to 25%, and it will be gone completely in a few years. If they raise taxes significantly for me, I'll just sell the car and find a closer job. 20km one way to Amsterdam with an ebike, that's 2 hours per day. I don't have that much time to give away at this point in life.

CalRobert 10mo ago

Sorry but where did I do that? I oppose tariffs on Chinese cars, which means I support making cars cheaper…

Loudergood 10mo ago

Like me, you're not buying new cars on that budget anyway. 6 years ago when my ICE car became unreliable I bought a used Chevy Bolt for less than $20k. They're closer to $10k now. Plenty of range. People aren't being asked to dump their current reliable vehicles. What we want is for people to think about EVs when it's time to replace them.

vladvasiliu 10mo ago
> People aren't being asked to dump their current reliable vehicles Depends on where the people live. In France, that's just about what they're asked. If their car is "too old" (reliability doesn't matter, only age), they may no longer drive in Paris and some other major cities on weekdays from 6 AM to 8 PM or something like that. https://www.france.fr/en/article/crit-air-anti-pollution-vehicle-sticker/ https://www.france.fr/en/article/crit-air-anti-pollution-veh...
- joe_mamba 10mo ago
  I have an ICE car and I agree with restrictions like that. You don't need to be Jeff Bezos to own a car that's at least Euro 5 and doesn't heavily pollute the air. If you own some 20+ year old beater that smokes like a chimney, get fined, we don't have to tolerate your health hazard mobile.
  - vladvasiliu 10mo ago
    Sure, I also don't care for smelling cars' exhausts, and am delighted with the move away from diesels to electrics. But the point I was responding to was "people aren't being forced to dump their old, reliable cars". Which they absolutely are. Whether that's a good or a bad thing is a different matter. I think it's good for health, but I also understand it can be difficult for people who struggle to make ends meet.